kemsamarm

Hello to all this is my first post and I am so appreciative of all the wonderful conversations I have been able to read from this group. All posts have been such golden nuggets of thought that keep me thinking throughout each day.
I am interested as an unschooling mom of two daughters 8 and 14 what you all think of having or not having bedtimes. It seems to me that no bedtime is a pretty natural way of living life - - listening to your own internal need for sleep and wake time flows into our unschooling way of life. Just curious how the other families out there have made this decision.

Robin Bentley

> I am interested as an unschooling mom of two daughters 8 and 14 what
> you all think of having or not having bedtimes. It seems to me that
> no bedtime is a pretty natural way of living life - - listening to
> your own internal need for sleep and wake time flows into our
> unschooling way of life. Just curious how the other families out
> there have made this decision.
>
Some collected thoughts on the subject on Sandra's and Joyce's sites:

http://www.sandradodd.com/sleeping
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/sleep/sleep.html

Robin B.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:19 PM, kemsamarm wrote:

> Just curious how the other families out there have made this decision.

Just a quick thought is: It works best when it's not thought of as "no
bedtimes" but in terms of helping kids fall asleep when they're
tired! :-)

No bedtimes has never been seriously suggested on any list I've been
on and yet lots of people label the concept like that. When they put
it into practice, they treat it like "no bedtimes" then end up with
kids who stay up until the wee hours and mom has no clue how to make
that work!

Joyce

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kemsamarm

This is exactly what I am trying to avoid in making this transition esp. with my youngest. So this is where I am most perplexed the "how to". I do want it to be authentic and come from her lead...but since we have had regular bedtimes, up til now, I am not sure how to come about and let it all flow now.



--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>

When they put
> it into practice, they treat it like "no bedtimes" then end up with
> kids who stay up until the wee hours and mom has no clue how to make
> that work!
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Pam Sorooshian

On 6/27/2010 3:17 PM, kemsamarm wrote:
>
> . I do want it to be authentic and come from her lead...

You might want to reconsider the way you're thinking about it.

Authentic means "real." Rigid and arbitrary bedtimes are real, too. So
think more about what you meant by "authentic" and try to use some
different wording.

Also, don't think about her taking the lead - think about you helping
her meet her needs, instead. She will need sleep. Help her get it in
ways that work best for her and your family. You role is to make the
transition from waking to sleeping as sweet and easy as possible. The
point is not to go to bed. The point is to get enough sleep to feel good.

In my family, that meant that I watched for signs of sleepiness in
each kid -- and each was different. When I started seeing signs of
sleepiness coming, I'd start toning down the activity level in the
house. I'd lower lights (love the dimmer switch) and I'd turn down the
sound on the tv. I might call the sleepy one into another room and
cuddle up and read to her. I might run a bath for her. I might say,
"Let's have just candles and tell stories." I might put on a movie that
the kids love, but have seen many times, so tht would free up the sleepy
ones to conk out. I might bring out some blankets and pillows for the
living room floor. I might just pick up the sleepy one and hug her on my
lap and stroke her cheek or hair.

Really, in my house, I was the one taking the lead. But I was watching
for the signs in the kids that it was getting close to time to sleep.

> but since we have had regular bedtimes, up til now, I am not sure how
> to come about and let it all flow now.

Just don't mention the bedtimes, but start going through your usual
bedtme routines when you think the kids are sleepy. If they notice that
you've let usual bedtime slip by, just ask, "Are you ready?" Let it
stay that way until everybody has just forgotten that bedtime used to be
specific time and has adjusted to it being when they feel sleepy.

If a kid is clearly sleepy, but not admitting it, then just tone things
down. Calm and quiet time is conducive to sleep. Rosie pretty much
always fell asleep in the middle of the rest of the family still up and
busy. She still falls asleep in the living room, quite often. Bedtime
doesn't have to mean going to bed, just falling asleep or even just
resting.

-pam



-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-It seems to me that no bedtime is a pretty natural way of living
life - - listening to your own internal need for sleep and wake time
flows into our unschooling way of life. Just curious how the other
families out there have made this decision. -=-

Ours wasn't "a decision," it flowed naturally from breastfeeding when
we only had one baby, and taking him with us places, and if he didn't
nurse to sleep, he would fall asleep with one of us holding him. When
we had two, same thing. Someone asked when Kirby went to bed, and
Keith and I looked at each other and shrugged and he said "about half
an hour after he falls asleep."

I think any change should be sweet and gradual and full of "yes."
Saying "sure" about "can i stay up a while?" or "Will you play with
me?" could turn into dozens of "yes" situations. I would never ever
announce "No more bedtimes" or "you can eat when you want to!" if a
child was scheduled and measured up to that moment.

http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
Lots of stories there.

Sandra



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Sandra Dodd

-=-No bedtimes has never been seriously suggested on any list I've been
on and yet lots of people label the concept like that. When they put
it into practice, they treat it like "no bedtimes" then end up with
kids who stay up until the wee hours and mom has no clue how to make
that work!-=-

Years (and years, and many years) ago in a discussion that wasn't just
unschoolers, people were going on about how hard it was to make their
kids go to sleep, and how their kids didn't want to be in a room alone
with the light off and blah blah blah and I said we never had that
problem. And I wrote some about it. And after that, people would
say "Well at Sandra's house..." and get me to talk about it some more.

What I said was it's the arbitrary bedtime that's the problem.
And as so many people do, some jumped from "arbitrary
bedtime...problem" to "No Bedtime ever, GOOD!" (like the cave man and
Frankenstein Saturday Night Live characters).

Too often people want new rules. They want to throw the old rules out
and adopt a set of NEW rules. Unschooling does not work that way, but
people continue to try to get it to work that way.

Understanding is crucial. It's not easy. It takes a lot of time and
effort and practice and thought, reading, discussion.

"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
Then go for balance, and making thoughtful choices.

http://sandradodd.com/balance
http://sandradodd.com/choices

Sandra



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kemsamarm

-- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>> I think any change should be sweet and gradual and full of "yes."
> Saying "sure" about "can i stay up a while?" or "Will you play with
> me?" could turn into dozens of "yes" situations. I would never ever
> announce "No more bedtimes" or "you can eat when you want to!" if a
> child was scheduled and measured up to that moment.

I agree and this is our goal as parents. When we get yes or no questions from our children we have trained ourselves to stop and think - why not yes. I don't know why it is so hard to apply this to all avenues of parenting. For us it feels easy to just step back into what we were used to growing up (habits ingrained in us). Bedtime is just another one of those habits we went with because in all honesty, even though it wasn't working, it seemed easier because we didn't have to think about it.

The forging ahead without a living breathing elder or peer in our families to turn to who truly get it is challenging. I am not sure if it is just the stage in our lives as parents or if we are just in a rut. We didn't seem to have this problem with extended breastfeeding or attachment parenting or co-sleeping I don't know why we have lost that gumption to keeping facilitating that same way of thinking as parents now.

Breathing, thinking, trying and observing is on my to do list again!



-

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Su Penn

On Jun 27, 2010, at 7:53 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:

> If a kid is clearly sleepy, but not admitting it, then just tone things
> down. Calm and quiet time is conducive to sleep. Rosie pretty much
> always fell asleep in the middle of the rest of the family still up and
> busy. She still falls asleep in the living room, quite often. Bedtime
> doesn't have to mean going to bed, just falling asleep or even just
> resting.

This just reminded me that for a long time when he was 3 and 4, Carl always went to sleep on the couch, leaning against David, watching a video. He just did not want to go to bed, so David got into this routine of settling down with him on the couch when he got sleepy. After he'd been asleep for a bit, David would carry him to bed.

Right now in our house, we don't have "bedtime" but the casual observer wouldn't know it; Carl usually falls asleep right around 8 and Eric around 9 (Yehva is more variable just now). But this has come about from observing cues and getting a good relaxing-into-bed groove going, and both the boys reaching stages where they are pretty regular in their habits. We had shifted a bit later with the days being longer, but the boys weren't following up late nights with sleeping in, but were waking up at their usual time without enough sleep. Eric in particular has gotten very aware of how that can affect him, so he's very amenable to sticking to the routine.

Eric used to be a real night owl, sometimes up until midnight or 1, and then sleeping until 11 or so. It was hard on me in some ways, but we also had some great times being up after everybody else, hanging out together. Spontaneous neat things happened pretty regularly.

Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-When we get yes or no questions from our children we have trained
ourselves to stop and think - why not yes. I don't know why it is so
hard to apply this to all avenues of parenting. -=-

It's hard because it involves examining all your own upbringing (not
easy) and learning (rather than training yourself) to decide in light
of new principles!

Sandra

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Vidyut Kale

"I am not sure how to come about and let it all flow now. "

I have learned to recognize what sleepy Nisarga looks like and I pick him up
or take him away from noise and talk softly or nurse/cuddle till he's out.
Often, he will sleep the minute I pick him up and hold him snug. Mostly, he
rubs his eyes, but sometimes he will yawn if he's very sleepy. Or he may
start 'drooping'. That is bedtime. If he's on his belly, he will simply drop
his head, stick his thumb in his mouth and sleep right there.

He sleeps late and wakes up early and has a few naps in the day.

Sometimes he has trouble falling asleep, and he 'stalls'. He will rub his
eyes, get sleepier, fussier or even start crying but not sleep. So I check
for comfort. Sometimes I can't figure it out, or fix it (poop due soon).
Even a brief change in position and back 'restarts a stalled routine'. I
have found it useful to have several different 'routines'. I have found that
different things fit on different days, but its helps to have some idea of
what I will do even if its a simple pick and cuddle or let him sleep where
he is. So in that sense its not totally free style, though its flexible.

But the most important thing is to recognize when he's sleepy and what helps
him nod off and what interferes. For example, N will wake up if I play
'soothing music' as he is just drifting off, but he can sleep in bright
light, no problem. More important than suggestions is to watch and see what
helps and remember it.

Vidyut


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k

>>>extended breastfeeding or attachment parenting or co-sleeping<<<

All of this is about breastfeeding to me, and as such isn't like
anything else I grew up with. My mom was not big on breastfeeding. I
got a month. So ... bed routines learned from home which were a big
part of our lives is very different. Actually I pretty much like the
way my parents handled our sleep routines. I typically went in my room
about 9 or 10, if not earlier --sometimes very soon after eating
supper or doing dishes if it were my turn-- and began reading. I
usually drifted off around midnight. Brian's experience was very very
different. The kids were sent to their rooms, whether they wanted to
go or not, at 8, like clockwork. This has been one of our most
difficult areas to deal with in our own home. I'm still looking for a
happy medium for everyone. It's better but still not good enough.

~Katherine




On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 10:12 PM, kemsamarm <ksmsouth@...> wrote:
> -- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>> I think any change should be sweet and gradual and full of "yes."
>> Saying "sure" about "can i stay up a while?" or "Will you play with
>> me?" could turn into dozens of "yes" situations.   I would never ever
>> announce "No more bedtimes" or "you can eat when you want to!" if a
>> child was scheduled and measured up to that moment.
>
> I agree and this is our goal as parents.  When we get yes or no questions from our children we have trained ourselves to stop and think - why not yes.  I don't know why it is so hard to apply this to all avenues of parenting.  For us it feels easy to just step back into what we were used to growing up (habits ingrained in us).  Bedtime is just another one of those habits we went with because in all honesty, even though it wasn't working, it seemed easier because we didn't have to think about it.
>
> The forging ahead without a living breathing elder or peer in our families to turn to who truly get it is challenging.  I am not sure if it is just the stage in our lives as parents or if we are just in a rut.  We didn't seem to have this problem with extended breastfeeding or attachment parenting or co-sleeping I don't know why we have lost that gumption to keeping facilitating that same way of thinking as parents now.
>
> Breathing, thinking, trying and observing is on my to do list again!
>
>
>
> -
>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Maisha Khalfani

When they put
> it into practice, they treat it like "no bedtimes" then end up with
> kids who stay up until the wee hours and mom has no clue how to make
> that work!
>
> Joyce





Joyce - in all of the years that I have been on various lists, for some
reason this is the first time that the whole 'bedtime' thing has clicked
with me LOL. I look forward to hearing some of the "how-to-do-this" ideas.



Maisha Khalfani

<http://7freespirits.blogspot.com/> 7 Free Spirits

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From Our Hearts To Your Home

,___



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Maisha Khalfani

Dh still believes in bedtimes. Right now it's 10pm most nights.



Last night the boys (the 2 girls happen to be away this week) decided they
wanted to go downstairs and watch dad play a game on his ps3. It was past
11pm. One son went to bed because he was sleepy, and dad sent the other two
to bed when they started falling asleep while watching him play. No tears
or resistance. Partly because dh was in a good mood. I wanted to ask him
why it couldn't always be that way. We haven't talked about it yet. I know
a lot depends on his mood. If he's fairly happy, all is well and mandatory
stuff doesn't matter. If he's feeling cranky or feeling neglected by me
then the children need to go to bed (feels like a bit of pressure for me
sometimes) so that he can have alone time with me without being bothered or
interrupted.



Another question/issue about bedtime: Khidar (5) always wants to sleep with
me. Dh is not a fan of that. I'm guessing the answer left is for me to lay
down with Khidar on his bed, which is what I'm considering doing. Of course
that's not 'convenient' for me, but it would make that wake-to-sleep
transition a lot easier, huh? I would think that after this many years I
would have the hang of this, but clearly it's a process.



Maisha Khalfani

<http://7freespirits.blogspot.com/> 7 Free Spirits

Follow our adventures through life

<http://ladymfitness.blogspot.com/> Lady M Fitness

Health and Fitness for Women of All Ages

<http://earthspirittarot.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Tarot Readings
Come and gain clarity and insight

<http://earthspiritbooksandgifts.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Books and Gifts
A bookstore for the Open Minded

<http://www.theunschoolersemporium.com/> The Unschooler's Emporium

From Our Hearts To Your Home





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Sandra Dodd

-=-
Another question/issue about bedtime: Khidar (5) always wants to sleep
with
me. Dh is not a fan of that. I'm guessing the answer left is for me to
lay
down with Khidar on his bed, which is what I'm considering doing-=-

At least be there while he falls asleep, yeah. That's a good way to
do it.

For years I slept with the kids and Keith started the night sleeping
alone. Maybe I would show up in there, or one of the kids, or me and
then one of the kids, but he still had several hours of sleeping
alone, and the kids could come where I was if they needed to, or if
the youngest cried I would go in there and nurse in that bed. When
Holly got a little bigger, we got one of those beds with a double/full
on the bottom and a twin above it.

-=-No tears
or resistance. Partly because dh was in a good mood. I wanted to ask him
why it couldn't always be that way. We haven't talked about it yet.-=-

I don't think there's a way to do that without it seeming like
criticism of all the other times.

Sandra

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