Unschooling and the Adult Child
keetry
Is that an oxymoron? I'm wondering how unschooling works, if it applies at all, once your child has become a legal adult. At 18 or 19 or 20, do they continue to unschool, hanging out at home, maybe working but maybe not or are there more expectations? Would you expect your late teen, early 20s child to work or go to college or would it be ok if they hung out at home and unschooled for a few more years? If you do have expectations that they work and/or go to college but they don't or won't, what would you do?
Alysia
Alysia
Jenny Cyphers
***Would you expect your late teen, early 20s child to work or go to college or would it be ok if they hung out at home and unschooled for a few more years? If you do have expectations that they work and/or go to college but they don't or won't, what would you do?***
I think most people are biologically designed to leave the nest and go and do and be. Some kids can't or won't. Margaux and I watched a "This American Life" segment about a person with spinal muscular atrophy. This person wanted more than anything in the world to lead an independent life and he couldn't.
So, what would a kid look like if they were 20 or 25 and unable, or for whatever reason unwilling, to leave the nest? Would it be much different from a kid who had a disability preventing them from doing so?
This is a hypothetical situation. Even the kids that I know of that are unschooled who live at home and they are old enough not to, go and do and be, hold jobs, run errands, and contribute in other ways to the household.
Young women in some cultures, even this one a long time ago, weren't able to leave home without getting married. What happened with those women who never married? I imagine they stayed home.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think most people are biologically designed to leave the nest and go and do and be. Some kids can't or won't. Margaux and I watched a "This American Life" segment about a person with spinal muscular atrophy. This person wanted more than anything in the world to lead an independent life and he couldn't.
So, what would a kid look like if they were 20 or 25 and unable, or for whatever reason unwilling, to leave the nest? Would it be much different from a kid who had a disability preventing them from doing so?
This is a hypothetical situation. Even the kids that I know of that are unschooled who live at home and they are old enough not to, go and do and be, hold jobs, run errands, and contribute in other ways to the household.
Young women in some cultures, even this one a long time ago, weren't able to leave home without getting married. What happened with those women who never married? I imagine they stayed home.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-***Would you expect your late teen, early 20s child to work or go
to college or would it be ok if they hung out at home and unschooled
for a few more years? If you do have expectations that they work and/
or go to college but they don't or won't, what would you do?***-=-
Kirby worked from the time he was 14 (starting with part time and
going to fulltime by the time he was 19). He moved out at 21; his
job paid for his move to Austin.
Holly has been gone more than home since September, living with
different families. She plans to get an apartment when she moves back
this summer, but if she doesn't that's fine. I'd rather have her
here, but she's interested in moving out. Maybe she'll come back at
some point.
Marty worked full time all through his 17th year,then traveled and
hung out for a year on his savings. He had 30-hour a week job for
another year and some, and then quit. He'e been unemployed for a
while, though he gets small jobs occasionally. He's 21 and home.
He's really helpful. I printed out three resumes for him last week
and didn't ask him what they were for. He took the accuplacer test at
the community college and might be taking summer classes, but might
wait for fall. I'm fine either way.
I have no concerns about his future. Keith was 21 when we first
met. He was an unemployed college dropout without a clue what he
wanted to do. He changed his mind lots of times in his 20's, and
finished a cobbled together degree when he was nearly 29. Major in
Computer Science and minor in theatre. That was a lot of extended
farting around. But we had a lot of fun, and didn't mind being poor.
Sometimes we both had jobs. Sometimes one of us was in school.
Marty will be fine. We could pressure him and shame him, but why
would we start doing that? We've seen the harm it has done in other
families.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to college or would it be ok if they hung out at home and unschooled
for a few more years? If you do have expectations that they work and/
or go to college but they don't or won't, what would you do?***-=-
Kirby worked from the time he was 14 (starting with part time and
going to fulltime by the time he was 19). He moved out at 21; his
job paid for his move to Austin.
Holly has been gone more than home since September, living with
different families. She plans to get an apartment when she moves back
this summer, but if she doesn't that's fine. I'd rather have her
here, but she's interested in moving out. Maybe she'll come back at
some point.
Marty worked full time all through his 17th year,then traveled and
hung out for a year on his savings. He had 30-hour a week job for
another year and some, and then quit. He'e been unemployed for a
while, though he gets small jobs occasionally. He's 21 and home.
He's really helpful. I printed out three resumes for him last week
and didn't ask him what they were for. He took the accuplacer test at
the community college and might be taking summer classes, but might
wait for fall. I'm fine either way.
I have no concerns about his future. Keith was 21 when we first
met. He was an unemployed college dropout without a clue what he
wanted to do. He changed his mind lots of times in his 20's, and
finished a cobbled together degree when he was nearly 29. Major in
Computer Science and minor in theatre. That was a lot of extended
farting around. But we had a lot of fun, and didn't mind being poor.
Sometimes we both had jobs. Sometimes one of us was in school.
Marty will be fine. We could pressure him and shame him, but why
would we start doing that? We've seen the harm it has done in other
families.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah McKee Kelly
***At 18 or 19 or 20, do they continue to unschool, hanging out at home,
maybe working but maybe not or are there more expectations? Would you expect
your late teen, early 20s child to work or go to college or would it be ok
if they hung out at home and unschooled for a few more years? If you do have
expectations that they work and/or go to college but they don't or won't,
what would you do?***
Call me crazy, family-oriented, over-involved, too emotional -- whatever --
but I think if my kids hung around until they were in their late teens,
early twenties, I'd be thrilled in many ways. Granted, I still have babies
(and when I think of them going away as young adults, I get teary), but I
also have a teen and pre-teen, and I can imagine them being around for a
long, long time. Also, we run a family business, in a way that would make
it really cool if they decided to be part of it when they are young adults.
I don't expect them to, but if they wanted to, that would be fun.
I think if you follow a philosophy of *unschooling,* but you think of it
less as a *method of education* and more as just living and learning and
loving life together, then the concern or fear or whatever about them not
heading out on their own at a certain, proscribed age or point in life,
might really not occur to you, or bother you that much. The idea of having
"expectations" based on a certain age really doesn't make sense, given
you've led your life as if the typical societal expectations (that they
should read at 5, and be in Little League, and do Algebra I in 7th grade,
and go to prom at 17) don't apply. Why should it suddenly matter at 18?
Why expectations? Why, "Ok, now you're 18, time to either get a job or go
to college"? I think that would fly in the face of unschooling/Always
Learning principles and philosophy.
If I think about just continuing to love life with my kids, and growing with
them, I can't imagine them NOT going off and following their natural urges
to become independent of us, and yet, I can totally imagine still supporting
them here at our house, and having them be a part of our lives until they
are able (financially or otherwise) and willing to go do their own thing.
My husband and I, both formally over-educated beyond stupidity, have agreed
for a long time that we don't care one way or another if our kids choose to
go to college or not. College, and for that matter, further post-secondary
education and credentialing, do not make life better or happier or more
productive or whatever those things are supposed to promise for young
adults. As for work, I fully believe that a young person who has grown up
with lots of choices and independence has a natural tendency to seek out
those activities that make them feel fulfilled or happy or content. I know
for myself that when I was just 14 or 15, I was already imagining and
dreaming about my own home, my own life separate from my parents, and that
the mere excitement of being free to set up house when I was old enough to
have a job and earn money and make that a reality was just fascinating. Our
kids are already earning money, because they want to, not because we *make*
them -- because it's fun and interesting and gives them the opportunity to
buy stuff they want.
If the idea of unschooling conjures fearful images of *lazy* or
*unmotivated* young adults who would rather mooch off their parents in
perpetuity, well, I have to just flatly disagree with that idea (it's such a
silly cliche, anyway). A kid who has spent his or her young years working
and playing and learning alongside caring, loving, interesting adults, is
going to have every reason to become a caring, loving, interesting adult who
is involved in relationships and activities him or herself. I can't imagine
my passionate 9-year-old step-son losing interest in life, or becoming
fearful of leaving our nest, unless he was somehow given the impression that
he should lose interest, or that he isn't capable of seeking out his own,
independent living situation.
If anything, I think the school culture of being told what to do, being
constantly judged against yourself and against others, of being put in a box
with a label, of being bored out of your mind for long stretches, of being
emotionally beat up regularly, could lead to that outcome much more
commonly. How shocking for the typically-schooled young adult, at 18, to
find oneself finally in a position to make decisions in a world of millions
of decisions. To find oneself suddenly without a report card to tell you
how you're doing, without a teacher or guidance counselor or guru telling
you what line to get in, without a textbook or a class schedule! In my
case, I knew the only answer was college, because I didn't know how to do
anything BUT school. And I nearly had a nervous breakdown as the end of
college approached. The answer? More school. And after that? More. It
took a good damn brush with my own mortality to finally break free of the
addiction to being told where to go, what to do, when. I learned that the
only things I really, truly cared about in this life were: growing things,
being with family, and writing. And so I quit jumping through hoops and
followed those loves, many years after I could have embraced them. My whole
life, I was told that growing things was "just a hobby," as was writing, and
that family was what you had on the evenings and weekends when you got away
from your job.
Now, my husband and I farm and hang out with our family, despite multiple
degrees and credentials and crap that never mattered. I don't want my kids
to experience that hoop-jumping idiocy.
I would almost be willing to bet that unschooling / always learning prepares
kids more for the *responsibilities* and independence of life away from the
nest than traditional school does, for all those reasons.
I've babbled too much. I just *heard* in your posted questions the fear
that a lot of people have when they think of unschooling (lazy kids doing
nothing! When will they do Something???) -- and I think it requires a
letting go of all those typical societal, age-based expectations.
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maybe working but maybe not or are there more expectations? Would you expect
your late teen, early 20s child to work or go to college or would it be ok
if they hung out at home and unschooled for a few more years? If you do have
expectations that they work and/or go to college but they don't or won't,
what would you do?***
Call me crazy, family-oriented, over-involved, too emotional -- whatever --
but I think if my kids hung around until they were in their late teens,
early twenties, I'd be thrilled in many ways. Granted, I still have babies
(and when I think of them going away as young adults, I get teary), but I
also have a teen and pre-teen, and I can imagine them being around for a
long, long time. Also, we run a family business, in a way that would make
it really cool if they decided to be part of it when they are young adults.
I don't expect them to, but if they wanted to, that would be fun.
I think if you follow a philosophy of *unschooling,* but you think of it
less as a *method of education* and more as just living and learning and
loving life together, then the concern or fear or whatever about them not
heading out on their own at a certain, proscribed age or point in life,
might really not occur to you, or bother you that much. The idea of having
"expectations" based on a certain age really doesn't make sense, given
you've led your life as if the typical societal expectations (that they
should read at 5, and be in Little League, and do Algebra I in 7th grade,
and go to prom at 17) don't apply. Why should it suddenly matter at 18?
Why expectations? Why, "Ok, now you're 18, time to either get a job or go
to college"? I think that would fly in the face of unschooling/Always
Learning principles and philosophy.
If I think about just continuing to love life with my kids, and growing with
them, I can't imagine them NOT going off and following their natural urges
to become independent of us, and yet, I can totally imagine still supporting
them here at our house, and having them be a part of our lives until they
are able (financially or otherwise) and willing to go do their own thing.
My husband and I, both formally over-educated beyond stupidity, have agreed
for a long time that we don't care one way or another if our kids choose to
go to college or not. College, and for that matter, further post-secondary
education and credentialing, do not make life better or happier or more
productive or whatever those things are supposed to promise for young
adults. As for work, I fully believe that a young person who has grown up
with lots of choices and independence has a natural tendency to seek out
those activities that make them feel fulfilled or happy or content. I know
for myself that when I was just 14 or 15, I was already imagining and
dreaming about my own home, my own life separate from my parents, and that
the mere excitement of being free to set up house when I was old enough to
have a job and earn money and make that a reality was just fascinating. Our
kids are already earning money, because they want to, not because we *make*
them -- because it's fun and interesting and gives them the opportunity to
buy stuff they want.
If the idea of unschooling conjures fearful images of *lazy* or
*unmotivated* young adults who would rather mooch off their parents in
perpetuity, well, I have to just flatly disagree with that idea (it's such a
silly cliche, anyway). A kid who has spent his or her young years working
and playing and learning alongside caring, loving, interesting adults, is
going to have every reason to become a caring, loving, interesting adult who
is involved in relationships and activities him or herself. I can't imagine
my passionate 9-year-old step-son losing interest in life, or becoming
fearful of leaving our nest, unless he was somehow given the impression that
he should lose interest, or that he isn't capable of seeking out his own,
independent living situation.
If anything, I think the school culture of being told what to do, being
constantly judged against yourself and against others, of being put in a box
with a label, of being bored out of your mind for long stretches, of being
emotionally beat up regularly, could lead to that outcome much more
commonly. How shocking for the typically-schooled young adult, at 18, to
find oneself finally in a position to make decisions in a world of millions
of decisions. To find oneself suddenly without a report card to tell you
how you're doing, without a teacher or guidance counselor or guru telling
you what line to get in, without a textbook or a class schedule! In my
case, I knew the only answer was college, because I didn't know how to do
anything BUT school. And I nearly had a nervous breakdown as the end of
college approached. The answer? More school. And after that? More. It
took a good damn brush with my own mortality to finally break free of the
addiction to being told where to go, what to do, when. I learned that the
only things I really, truly cared about in this life were: growing things,
being with family, and writing. And so I quit jumping through hoops and
followed those loves, many years after I could have embraced them. My whole
life, I was told that growing things was "just a hobby," as was writing, and
that family was what you had on the evenings and weekends when you got away
from your job.
Now, my husband and I farm and hang out with our family, despite multiple
degrees and credentials and crap that never mattered. I don't want my kids
to experience that hoop-jumping idiocy.
I would almost be willing to bet that unschooling / always learning prepares
kids more for the *responsibilities* and independence of life away from the
nest than traditional school does, for all those reasons.
I've babbled too much. I just *heard* in your posted questions the fear
that a lot of people have when they think of unschooling (lazy kids doing
nothing! When will they do Something???) -- and I think it requires a
letting go of all those typical societal, age-based expectations.
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Oh! I read mail backwards; sorry.
-=-Would you expect your late teen, early 20s child to work or go to
college or would it be ok if they hung out at home and unschooled for
a few more years?-=-
I don't consider that any of my kids are "unschooling" anymore,
because they're past the age of compulsory attendance.
They're still learning, and so are Keith and I. Compulsory schooling
days have expired, but the family closeness and relationships didn't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Would you expect your late teen, early 20s child to work or go to
college or would it be ok if they hung out at home and unschooled for
a few more years?-=-
I don't consider that any of my kids are "unschooling" anymore,
because they're past the age of compulsory attendance.
They're still learning, and so are Keith and I. Compulsory schooling
days have expired, but the family closeness and relationships didn't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/19/2010 7:54 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
themselves to be unschoolers, now and forever.
They would say Sandra and Keith, me and my husband - we're weren't
unschooled so we aren't unschoolers, even though we're learning outside
of school.
I would tell my kids, "You were unschooled, but you are no longer
unschoolers," except they are really convinced that having been
unschooled, they are different than other people as a result and so they
still identify with being unschoolers.
-pam
>I don't consider my kids to be currently unschooling, but they consider
> I don't consider that any of my kids are "unschooling" anymore,
> because they're past the age of compulsory attendance.
>
> They're still learning, and so are Keith and I. Compulsory schooling
> days have expired, but the family closeness and relationships didn't.
themselves to be unschoolers, now and forever.
They would say Sandra and Keith, me and my husband - we're weren't
unschooled so we aren't unschoolers, even though we're learning outside
of school.
I would tell my kids, "You were unschooled, but you are no longer
unschoolers," except they are really convinced that having been
unschooled, they are different than other people as a result and so they
still identify with being unschoolers.
-pam
Kris
Personally I am happy with either of my children staying as long as they
please. I would encourage them to confront anything in their attitude which
I think could hinder them but I've done that all of their lives. For me
what was most important is that they felt confident enough to move out if
they chose to but not desperate to get away.
My daughter married early, she and her husband have decided to stay with me
for a few years and save for their own home. They both work hard, are very
considerate, helpful and responsible. We all benefit from the living
situation and none of us feels restricted by the other. My daughter loves
the idea of her own place but her pragmatic tendencies have lead her to stay
a while longer.
please. I would encourage them to confront anything in their attitude which
I think could hinder them but I've done that all of their lives. For me
what was most important is that they felt confident enough to move out if
they chose to but not desperate to get away.
My daughter married early, she and her husband have decided to stay with me
for a few years and save for their own home. They both work hard, are very
considerate, helpful and responsible. We all benefit from the living
situation and none of us feels restricted by the other. My daughter loves
the idea of her own place but her pragmatic tendencies have lead her to stay
a while longer.
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:51 PM, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
>
>
> Is that an oxymoron? I'm wondering how unschooling works, if it applies at
> all, once your child has become a legal adult. At 18 or 19 or 20, do they
> continue to unschool, hanging out at home, maybe working but maybe not or
> are there more expectations? Would you expect your late teen, early 20s
> child to work or go to college or would it be ok if they hung out at home
> and unschooled for a few more years? If you do have expectations that they
> work and/or go to college but they don't or won't, what would you do?
>
> Alysia
>
--
Kris - mom to Lanora, Jonathan and mom-of-love to Sean
�Be yourself, everyone else is already taken." - Oscar Wilde
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
In the U.S. and in the UK they often became school teachers or governesses and worked in what jobs were available. There are fantastic diary and letter collections from women like that in South Dakota and Minnesota and Montana. Redmond O'Hanlon, I think, talks about a couple of spinster sisters who homesteaded in South Dakota, I think. Maybe I'm blurring books, maybe their story is separate and intact and not in his book badlands. Women who didn't marry had to make a way for themselves. In the UK I think there were more servants options available. There is a tombstone in Bury St. Edmund, in the cautionary graveyard, that speaks of the girl buried beneath. She was a household servant who was hung because she let her lover into the house to do her master and mistress harm and to rob the house. So, that was an option open to some of the unmarried women in the UK.
Schuyler
________________________________
Young women in some cultures, even this one a long time ago, weren't able to leave home without getting married. What happened with those women who never married? I imagine they stayed home.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
Young women in some cultures, even this one a long time ago, weren't able to leave home without getting married. What happened with those women who never married? I imagine they stayed home.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
> -=-***Would you expect your late teen, early 20s child to work or goMy kids are young, so I can't speak from experience as a parent. I _can_ speak to my expectations, and to my experience as a young adult.
> to college or would it be ok if they hung out at home and unschooled
> for a few more years? If you do have expectations that they work and/
> or go to college but they don't or won't, what would you do?***-=-
Sandra mentioned that she and Keith noodled around a lot in their 20s. Nearly all of my close friends went to college right out of high school, and graduated four years later (give or take a semester). Nearly all of us, though, later went back to school for various reasons. I went back in my 30s to get the English major I'd always wanted, just for fun (my parents were paying for college and wouldn't let me major in English the first time around). My partner David went back as an undergrad after working as a librarian for several years and finding that the computer aspect of librarianship was the most fun for him; he studied computer science and is now a software engineer. Another friend went back to become a Physicians' Assistant; she had to spend some time taking prerequisites first because, not knowing she wanted to be a PA, she hadn't taken anatomy or chemistry or things like that in college.
We all were very successful in college, but that first 4-year degree didn't end up doing us much good. From a certain perspective, it was a waste of time and money, even though we enjoyed ourselves and learned a lot. Enjoying ourselves and learning a lot are certainly worthwhile, but we _thought_ we were there to get the education that would prepare us for our lives and careers. And it didn't.
So, from that experience, I don't assume or expect my kids will go to college in their late teens. Unlike all the people around us whose kids at 9 or 10 already expect to go to college (one of my son's friends talked about it to us the other day; he's 10), to the extent it's come up at all I've said to the kids that it's one thing they might choose to do when they get older. I think it makes sense for college to be a more considered decision than "it's what you must do." Does the person have a career in mind they'd like to explore? Is there something specific they're interested in learning? Do they want to have fun and learn a lot? Is college the best way for them to do any of those things? If so, does that mean being an on-campus student at a 4-year college or university, or something else?
College is very expensive, most of the time. I'm happy to put what resources I have towards that for my children. But if, at the same age, they want to keep living at home, work a part-time job, and hang out with their friends a lot, I'd be happy to help with that, too. Or if they wanted to travel. Or had an art or something else they wanted to explore. For some people, it might make a lot more sense to be a college student later in life, after they've had a chance to get some experience, see what's out there, figure out what they like. College is a great place for exploration but it's not the only place.
Su, mom to Eric, 8; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com
keetry
With the idea that unschooling ends when a child is outside the compulsory school age, this may not apply here. I came to this list, though, because I knew there were unschoolers here with older, adult children that might have more insight into this.
Ryan says he wants to get a job but it's really hard right now, especially when you are young and don't have much work experience. I get that. Part of the problem is, I think, because he doesn't really know how to go after a job. I try to talk to him about having to do more than just turn in an application but he shuts down. Refuses to listen. He says he's doing what he can. I don't see him out there doing that every day, though. What I see is him hanging out with his friends, skateboarding or playing video games.
He has said since he was 12 that he wants to be a chef and own his own restaurant. One of the community colleges near us has a culinary arts program. It's about an hour away, though, and we don't have an extra car so he'd have to use my car. That would mean me and the little ones would be stuck at home most days. So I said he could take the general ed classes that are required at the closer community college and then after a year or so he could transfer to the other one. My hope was/is that by then he'd have a job and we could get him his own car. We can buy him a car but we can't afford to pay for his insurance, which is why he would need to get a job to have use of the car.
He signed up for 3 classes for the spring semester but got dropped from all 3 classes for missing too many days. He says he didn't mean to do that and he does still want to take classes. Now it's time for summer registration and he doesn't seem interested. He needs to find out which English class he tested into before he is scheduled to register on Wednesday but he won't do it. I'm thinking maybe he doesn't really want to.
I'd be ok with him not going this summer but I'm getting a lot of pressure from my husband to get Ryan to do something because he's legally an adult now. My husband says we provide him with food and shelter and that's enough. We shouldn't be giving him anything else unless he works and/or goes to school. For example, my husband said I should not let Ryan use the car unless he can pay for the gas, knowing full well that he can't because he doesn't have a job. That seems unfair to me within the ideas and principles of unschooling. It's very common within mainstream parenting and living.
On the one hand, I can understand my husband's position. Ryan is an adult now and you'd think he'd want to get out on his own and be independent. On the other hand, he is only 19, just barely an adult, and he may need more time to figure out what all of that means. For the most part, I don't mind him taking more time to figure things out. I do have some concerns and fears about him just hanging out with his friends. I'm not sure how to go about helping him find what he needs without him feeling pressured.
Alysia
> We could pressure him and shame him, but whyI guess this is what I'm struggling with. Not the shaming part. I wouldn't do that. The pressuring part. I'm trying to be supportive and encouraging to my 19 year old, Ryan, about getting a job and/or taking college classes without making him feel pressured.
> would we start doing that? We've seen the harm it has done in other
> families.
Ryan says he wants to get a job but it's really hard right now, especially when you are young and don't have much work experience. I get that. Part of the problem is, I think, because he doesn't really know how to go after a job. I try to talk to him about having to do more than just turn in an application but he shuts down. Refuses to listen. He says he's doing what he can. I don't see him out there doing that every day, though. What I see is him hanging out with his friends, skateboarding or playing video games.
He has said since he was 12 that he wants to be a chef and own his own restaurant. One of the community colleges near us has a culinary arts program. It's about an hour away, though, and we don't have an extra car so he'd have to use my car. That would mean me and the little ones would be stuck at home most days. So I said he could take the general ed classes that are required at the closer community college and then after a year or so he could transfer to the other one. My hope was/is that by then he'd have a job and we could get him his own car. We can buy him a car but we can't afford to pay for his insurance, which is why he would need to get a job to have use of the car.
He signed up for 3 classes for the spring semester but got dropped from all 3 classes for missing too many days. He says he didn't mean to do that and he does still want to take classes. Now it's time for summer registration and he doesn't seem interested. He needs to find out which English class he tested into before he is scheduled to register on Wednesday but he won't do it. I'm thinking maybe he doesn't really want to.
I'd be ok with him not going this summer but I'm getting a lot of pressure from my husband to get Ryan to do something because he's legally an adult now. My husband says we provide him with food and shelter and that's enough. We shouldn't be giving him anything else unless he works and/or goes to school. For example, my husband said I should not let Ryan use the car unless he can pay for the gas, knowing full well that he can't because he doesn't have a job. That seems unfair to me within the ideas and principles of unschooling. It's very common within mainstream parenting and living.
On the one hand, I can understand my husband's position. Ryan is an adult now and you'd think he'd want to get out on his own and be independent. On the other hand, he is only 19, just barely an adult, and he may need more time to figure out what all of that means. For the most part, I don't mind him taking more time to figure things out. I do have some concerns and fears about him just hanging out with his friends. I'm not sure how to go about helping him find what he needs without him feeling pressured.
Alysia
Sandra Dodd
-=-My daughter married early, she and her husband have decided to stay
with me
for a few years and save for their own home. They both work hard, are
very
considerate, helpful and responsible. We all benefit from the living
situation and none of us feels restricted by the other. -=-
I should have mentioned the significant others. My kids are on the
grown end of the scale.
When Kirby was here we didn't mind if he had someone over. There was
one girl for a while; stayed a few times. Great singer; I already had
my eye on genetically singing grandkids. But no, when he moved to
Texas she started dating a friend of his here.
Holly's boyfriend lived with us for several months. Not quite a year,
I think, and she gave him the gentle boot. He wasn't taking the
gentle boot and I gave them the "Seriously; Holly said..." and then he
moved. I called him on his birthday the other day. He was over
playing music with Marty last week.
Marty has had a girlfriend for 14 months. She had an apartment and
invited him to move in with her. He declined politely. She hinted
heavily about moving in here (since Holly's boyfriend was here).
Marty said he wasn't interested in that.
When I was Marty's age I would have jumped at the chance to go
somewhere with somebody (well I did, actually), but Marty likes being
home.
The girlfriend moved from her apartment back to her parents' house to
save money to go to college (she's a junior in anthropology and
planning medical school, but not rushing along; she has a full time
job in a medical lab). Marty still didn't invite her to live here,
and her parents won't let them be over there. She stays over
sometimes several nights in a row, and they've begun to mix laundry,
but she doesn't have very much stuff here at all. She's not at all
moved in.
That might be more evidence for consideration.
With safety as a priority, I would rather they would be here than out
in a car or a tent, if they're going to "do it." I would rather they
would be free from attack, robbery, animal bites, lack of condoms and
sanitation. Other families' priorities are different, and that's the
whole deal about making choices. First decide what you want to
nurture and accomplish and then make choices in that direction.
Some things will run a kid off. You can't say "I don't mind if you
stay into your 20's" but then put a ton of rules on it. You can, but
it won't be the same.
Sandra
with me
for a few years and save for their own home. They both work hard, are
very
considerate, helpful and responsible. We all benefit from the living
situation and none of us feels restricted by the other. -=-
I should have mentioned the significant others. My kids are on the
grown end of the scale.
When Kirby was here we didn't mind if he had someone over. There was
one girl for a while; stayed a few times. Great singer; I already had
my eye on genetically singing grandkids. But no, when he moved to
Texas she started dating a friend of his here.
Holly's boyfriend lived with us for several months. Not quite a year,
I think, and she gave him the gentle boot. He wasn't taking the
gentle boot and I gave them the "Seriously; Holly said..." and then he
moved. I called him on his birthday the other day. He was over
playing music with Marty last week.
Marty has had a girlfriend for 14 months. She had an apartment and
invited him to move in with her. He declined politely. She hinted
heavily about moving in here (since Holly's boyfriend was here).
Marty said he wasn't interested in that.
When I was Marty's age I would have jumped at the chance to go
somewhere with somebody (well I did, actually), but Marty likes being
home.
The girlfriend moved from her apartment back to her parents' house to
save money to go to college (she's a junior in anthropology and
planning medical school, but not rushing along; she has a full time
job in a medical lab). Marty still didn't invite her to live here,
and her parents won't let them be over there. She stays over
sometimes several nights in a row, and they've begun to mix laundry,
but she doesn't have very much stuff here at all. She's not at all
moved in.
That might be more evidence for consideration.
With safety as a priority, I would rather they would be here than out
in a car or a tent, if they're going to "do it." I would rather they
would be free from attack, robbery, animal bites, lack of condoms and
sanitation. Other families' priorities are different, and that's the
whole deal about making choices. First decide what you want to
nurture and accomplish and then make choices in that direction.
Some things will run a kid off. You can't say "I don't mind if you
stay into your 20's" but then put a ton of rules on it. You can, but
it won't be the same.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-He has said since he was 12 that he wants to be a chef and own his
own restaurant. One of the community colleges near us has a culinary
arts program. It's about an hour away, though, and we don't have an
extra car so he'd have to use my car-=-
A car costs less than a year's tuition at a fancy school, and less
than a year's room and board at a dorm, pretty much.
Maybe the car is more important than not. Maybe "he'd have to use my
car" is a misuse of "have to."
-=-My hope was/is that by then he'd have a job and we could get him
his own car. We can buy him a car but we can't afford to pay for his
insurance, which is why he would need to get a job to have use of the
car.
-=-
Unless you consider it part of the expense of college. If he attended
a college a thousand miles away there would be airfare.
-=-He needs to find out which English class he tested into before he
is scheduled to register on Wednesday but he won't do it. I'm thinking
maybe he doesn't really want to. -=-
Maybe you could get a friend of his to go with him to the test
center. Give them money for lunch. Smile and wave as they leave.
-=-On the one hand, I can understand my husband's position. Ryan is an
adult now and you'd think he'd want to get out on his own and be
independent. On the other hand, he is only 19, just barely an adult,
and he may need more time to figure out what all of that means-=-
Remind your husband, maybe, that many 19 year olds are in college
getting drunk and puking and meeting undesirable people. Many other
19 year olds are parents already. Maybe your son should get some
credit for being home and neither drunk nor yet a father. Maybe
that's worth the loan of a car, even if you had to borrow money to get
the car. Maybe. Depends.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
own restaurant. One of the community colleges near us has a culinary
arts program. It's about an hour away, though, and we don't have an
extra car so he'd have to use my car-=-
A car costs less than a year's tuition at a fancy school, and less
than a year's room and board at a dorm, pretty much.
Maybe the car is more important than not. Maybe "he'd have to use my
car" is a misuse of "have to."
-=-My hope was/is that by then he'd have a job and we could get him
his own car. We can buy him a car but we can't afford to pay for his
insurance, which is why he would need to get a job to have use of the
car.
-=-
Unless you consider it part of the expense of college. If he attended
a college a thousand miles away there would be airfare.
-=-He needs to find out which English class he tested into before he
is scheduled to register on Wednesday but he won't do it. I'm thinking
maybe he doesn't really want to. -=-
Maybe you could get a friend of his to go with him to the test
center. Give them money for lunch. Smile and wave as they leave.
-=-On the one hand, I can understand my husband's position. Ryan is an
adult now and you'd think he'd want to get out on his own and be
independent. On the other hand, he is only 19, just barely an adult,
and he may need more time to figure out what all of that means-=-
Remind your husband, maybe, that many 19 year olds are in college
getting drunk and puking and meeting undesirable people. Many other
19 year olds are parents already. Maybe your son should get some
credit for being home and neither drunk nor yet a father. Maybe
that's worth the loan of a car, even if you had to borrow money to get
the car. Maybe. Depends.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
== Sandra mentioned that she and Keith noodled around a lot in their 20s. Nearly all of my close friends went to college right out of high school, and graduated four years later (give or take a semester). Nearly all of us, though, later went back to school for various reasons. I went back in my 30s to get the English major I'd always wanted, just for fun (my parents were paying for college and wouldn't let me major in English the first time around). My partner David went back as an undergrad after working as a librarian for several years and finding that the computer aspect of librarianship was the most fun for him; he studied computer science and is now a software engineer. Another friend went back to become a Physicians' Assistant; she had to spend some time taking prerequisites first because, not knowing she wanted to be a PA, she hadn't taken anatomy or chemistry or things like that in college.==
I graduated from high school early, started working and living on my own at 17 because I was desperate to get out of my mother's house. I took college classes here and there but it took me 10 years to get serious and finish. My undergrad degree improved my life immensely. What I learned from that was that my children have their entire lives to go to college or not. That's one thing I have to continually point out to my husband and mother.
Someone mentioned a family that is paying for college for their children who are only there because that's what is expected of them when it seems that money could be better spent allowing those children to follow their passions. That's how I see things. College is not the end all, be all. The rest of my family disagrees with me on that. But what do you do if your college age child doesn't seem to want to pursue anything?
I remember hearing a lot when I was in my late teens and early 20s that if an adult child didn't go to college then s/he needed to get a job and get out. That was how everyone around me that I can remember thought. It was (still is to most people, I think) unacceptable for parents to continue to support their adult children. If an 18-20 year old was not working or going to college, he was a bum.
There was a lot more I wanted to say about this but now I can't remember it. If it comes back to me, I'll post some more.
Alysia
I graduated from high school early, started working and living on my own at 17 because I was desperate to get out of my mother's house. I took college classes here and there but it took me 10 years to get serious and finish. My undergrad degree improved my life immensely. What I learned from that was that my children have their entire lives to go to college or not. That's one thing I have to continually point out to my husband and mother.
Someone mentioned a family that is paying for college for their children who are only there because that's what is expected of them when it seems that money could be better spent allowing those children to follow their passions. That's how I see things. College is not the end all, be all. The rest of my family disagrees with me on that. But what do you do if your college age child doesn't seem to want to pursue anything?
I remember hearing a lot when I was in my late teens and early 20s that if an adult child didn't go to college then s/he needed to get a job and get out. That was how everyone around me that I can remember thought. It was (still is to most people, I think) unacceptable for parents to continue to support their adult children. If an 18-20 year old was not working or going to college, he was a bum.
There was a lot more I wanted to say about this but now I can't remember it. If it comes back to me, I'll post some more.
Alysia
keetry
> Some things will run a kid off. You can't say "I don't mind if youThis is what my husband is doing and I don't like it. If me and my husband, as adults in the home, can come and go as we please, our adult children should be able to as well. I can't help but be shocked when he tells me that some 18 or 19 or 20 year old friend's parents won't let them go out. How can that be? They are adults.
> stay into your 20's" but then put a ton of rules on it. You can, but
> it won't be the same.
Alysia
Sandra Dodd
-=- It was (still is to most people, I think) unacceptable for parents
to continue to support their adult children. If an 18-20 year old was
not working or going to college, he was a bum. -=-
It's more and more of other people wanting to tell you how you "have
to" parent, seems to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to continue to support their adult children. If an 18-20 year old was
not working or going to college, he was a bum. -=-
It's more and more of other people wanting to tell you how you "have
to" parent, seems to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=This is what my husband is doing and I don't like it. If me and my
husband, as adults in the home, can come and go as we please, our
adult children should be able to as well. I can't help but be shocked
when he tells me that some 18 or 19 or 20 year old friend's parents
won't let them go out. How can that be? They are adults.-=-
I assume those things are done to help run the kid off. The parents
might not consciously think of it that way, but it seems to be the
intent and the effect. "You can stay if you continue to act like a
little child."
Marty's girlfriend is older than he is. When she was 23, I think she
said, she went to live with her parents when she left a boyfriend who
was using drugs and being a butt. She went out one night and stayed
"too late" and her dad took her car keys away from her for it. She
was grounded. Not only was she past 21, it was a car she had bought
herself, as an adult.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
husband, as adults in the home, can come and go as we please, our
adult children should be able to as well. I can't help but be shocked
when he tells me that some 18 or 19 or 20 year old friend's parents
won't let them go out. How can that be? They are adults.-=-
I assume those things are done to help run the kid off. The parents
might not consciously think of it that way, but it seems to be the
intent and the effect. "You can stay if you continue to act like a
little child."
Marty's girlfriend is older than he is. When she was 23, I think she
said, she went to live with her parents when she left a boyfriend who
was using drugs and being a butt. She went out one night and stayed
"too late" and her dad took her car keys away from her for it. She
was grounded. Not only was she past 21, it was a car she had bought
herself, as an adult.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
> -=-He has said since he was 12 that he wants to be a chef and own hisYes, it does. We can't afford the tuition, either. That's one reason he's not at a culinary institute. Financial aid might help with that but it won't help with a car.
> own restaurant. One of the community colleges near us has a culinary
> arts program. It's about an hour away, though, and we don't have an
> extra car so he'd have to use my car-=-
>
> A car costs less than a year's tuition at a fancy school, and less
> than a year's room and board at a dorm, pretty much.
> Maybe the car is more important than not. Maybe "he'd have to use my
> car" is a misuse of "have to."
Not being able to afford the expenses of another car is a temporary thing, I hope. At the moment, we are having to maintain 2 households because my husband has been assigned somewhere else just long enough that he doesn't get any extra pay for being gone but for such a short time that it was not worth it to move the whole family. I'm hoping that once he's home again we'll be able to pay for all of that. Then my only obstacle will be my husband.
> -=-My hope was/is that by then he'd have a job and we could get himI know. I think about that all the time, the cost in comparison to him being far away at college. My biggest hurdle is my husband. He can't seem to get past the idea that our son should be supporting himself now since he's legally an adult. He thinks not providing him anything but the bare necessities will motivate (force) him to get a job. I think that's harsh and unfair. Maybe I should run a cost comparison of tuition, supplies and room and board for college vs. a car.
> his own car. We can buy him a car but we can't afford to pay for his
> insurance, which is why he would need to get a job to have use of the
> car.
> -=-
>
> Unless you consider it part of the expense of college. If he attended
> a college a thousand miles away there would be airfare.
> -=-He needs to find out which English class he tested into before heI can suggest that. It works for me. We talked about it some more today. He says it's silly that he has to take classes like Expository English and Art or Music Appreciation to cook. I can understand that. I'm going to try searching again for cooking schools that don't require the general ed classes. I searched before but didn't find any that we could afford. He also said he'd go to the other community college to discuss their culinary arts program after I suggested that he could start with the culinary classes there and not have to worry about the others for now.
> is scheduled to register on Wednesday but he won't do it. I'm thinking
> maybe he doesn't really want to. -=-
>
> Maybe you could get a friend of his to go with him to the test
> center. Give them money for lunch. Smile and wave as they leave.
> -=-On the one hand, I can understand my husband's position. Ryan is anThis is an excellent point. I will definitely remind my husband of this. The ways that we interact with/treat Ryan has always been a sticking point for us. My husband thinks I'm too soft and I think he's too rigid. So we go round and round about this. My husband gets unschooling with the younger ones but not with the older one.
> adult now and you'd think he'd want to get out on his own and be
> independent. On the other hand, he is only 19, just barely an adult,
> and he may need more time to figure out what all of that means-=-
>
> Remind your husband, maybe, that many 19 year olds are in college
> getting drunk and puking and meeting undesirable people. Many other
> 19 year olds are parents already. Maybe your son should get some
> credit for being home and neither drunk nor yet a father. Maybe
> that's worth the loan of a car, even if you had to borrow money to get
> the car. Maybe. Depends.
I don't think this is really about money for my husband. I think he's using that as a reason for his position. I think what it really is, though, is that he's stuck in that mindset that it's bad for us to give Ryan this stuff. I can't quite explain it because I really don't understand it. I think that whatever we have, we should give to our children at least as much as we give to ourselves. My husband thinks that if we just give Ryan these things, he won't learn to be responsible and self-sufficient. When Ryan was younger my husband conceded a lot of this to me but now that Ryan is an adult my husband is digging in his heals more. I'm struggling with whether to just put my foot and tell my husband how it's going to be Ryan or doing some of what my husband wants when I know it's not the best for Ryan.
Alysia
Schuyler
I think it depends on where you are and who you are. I know lots of people who've had lots of parental support throughout their lives. They live and work on the family farm, or they had the down payment on their house paid for by their parents or they had their college education funded by their folks, or they do volunteer work to buffer their c.v. while before they get a job. In the UK it was traditional to have a gap year. A year between college (high school) and university. That was probably buffered quite mightily with parental aid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_year is an interesting discussion of the Gap year. Interestingly among the Ache, a hunter-gatherer group of Paraguay, young men aren't really competent at hunting until they are about 30 or so. They are buffered by their community and by their immediate family. The timing of their competence seems to coincide with the timing of their ability to get a wife, amazingly enough.
Anyhow, maybe folks have glossed over some of the details of history and when children leave home. Just today I found a story of a murder of a young woman in 1827 who was still living at home (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Barn_murder) at the time of her death.
Schuyler
________________________________
-=- It was (still is to most people, I think) unacceptable for parents
to continue to support their adult children. If an 18-20 year old was
not working or going to college, he was a bum. -=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Anyhow, maybe folks have glossed over some of the details of history and when children leave home. Just today I found a story of a murder of a young woman in 1827 who was still living at home (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Barn_murder) at the time of her death.
Schuyler
________________________________
-=- It was (still is to most people, I think) unacceptable for parents
to continue to support their adult children. If an 18-20 year old was
not working or going to college, he was a bum. -=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=I think it depends on where you are and who you are.-=-
In Mexico people stay home longer and share family businesses quite a
bit. Lots of families with family businesses give their kids jobs,
even in English-speaking places.
So in the absence of family farms, ranches and small business, things
changed in a lot of places.
I think school being mandatory to the age of 18 (where that's true;
it's not everywhere) contributes mightily to the odd perception that
after high school kids must sink or swim.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In Mexico people stay home longer and share family businesses quite a
bit. Lots of families with family businesses give their kids jobs,
even in English-speaking places.
So in the absence of family farms, ranches and small business, things
changed in a lot of places.
I think school being mandatory to the age of 18 (where that's true;
it's not everywhere) contributes mightily to the odd perception that
after high school kids must sink or swim.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/20/2010 12:56 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
and we're going to continue to treat you that way."
I think the purpose is to try to force maturation.
I feel lucky that my husband's culture does not have such a "hurry up"
attitude about maturing - at any age. They don't put 5 year olds to read
and they don't push 20 year olds to be grown up and on their own.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I assume those things are done to help run the kid off. The parentsI think it is more like, "IF you stay, you are acting like a little kid
> might not consciously think of it that way, but it seems to be the
> intent and the effect. "You can stay if you continue to act like a
> little child."
and we're going to continue to treat you that way."
I think the purpose is to try to force maturation.
I feel lucky that my husband's culture does not have such a "hurry up"
attitude about maturing - at any age. They don't put 5 year olds to read
and they don't push 20 year olds to be grown up and on their own.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
> I assume those things are done to help run the kid off. The parentsJust as I was reading this I thought of a 20 year old friend who gets locked out of the house if he's not home by 8 pm or some ridiculous time like that. He's not allowed to have a key to the house. He gets kicked out for months at a time for not following their rules. His stepdad is retiring soon and he and the mom are planning to move several states away. My son told me they have told him, their son, that he can't come whether he has a job and a place to live or not. He's the youngest, the baby. All the other kids are out of the house. I guess they think this is their entitled time for themselves.
> might not consciously think of it that way, but it seems to be the
> intent and the effect. "You can stay if you continue to act like a
> little child."
Alysia
wtexans
===He has said since he was 12 that he wants to be a chef and own his own restaurant.===
There's more than one path to becoming a chef. School is expensive and if money is an issue right now, and if your son isn't quite ready to jump through all the school-hurdles required to get his certification, then maybe school could be put on the back burner and he can look for jobs or apprenticeships that will specifically allow him to pick up some restaurant / chef'ing experience.
He could look for a job as a prep person at a restaurant. If he doesn't have luck finding a job, he could go to a locally-owned restaurant and offer to apprentice (might be easier at a locally-owned restaurant than a chain restaurant). School doesn't compare to hands-on experience.
If there are any private chefs in your city, he could offer to apprentice with one of them.
Brainstorm for ways other than school that will help him work towards his goal. There's no reason he can't go back to school in the future, after he's picked up some hands-on experience. Then again, after getting hands-on experience, he may find he can move forward without going back to school.
He may not be following up on jobs he's applied for because the jobs don't particularly interest him. But if he can find a way to work in a field that interests him, odds are good that he'll be more motivated to work.
===He thinks not providing him anything but the bare necessities will motivate (force) him to get a job.===
It may motivate him to leave home and he may end up in an undesireable situation.
If your son wants to take a break from school and opted to take responsibility for more things at home, would that be a middle ground your husband would agree to? Some ideas of things your son could do at home: pay bills and balance the checkbook (a skill that's necessary to know when he's on his own); buy groceries and prepare dinner; be sure your car always has gas and is clean; the yardwork; etc. Would your son be agreeable to doing some of those things on a regular basis instead of getting a paying job? Or does he have suggestions of ways he can contribute? Right now he may not feel he offers much value to the household (in his dad's eyes) if he's not working or in school, so brainstorm with him and think outside the box and take some ideas to your husband as alternatives.
Oh, going back to an earlier post in this thread, hanging out with friends, skateboarding and playing video games may be how your son is processing the pressure he's feeling. It may look to you like he's doing nothing, but in reality he may be doing the best he can to deal with the pressure without buckling under it.
Glenda
There's more than one path to becoming a chef. School is expensive and if money is an issue right now, and if your son isn't quite ready to jump through all the school-hurdles required to get his certification, then maybe school could be put on the back burner and he can look for jobs or apprenticeships that will specifically allow him to pick up some restaurant / chef'ing experience.
He could look for a job as a prep person at a restaurant. If he doesn't have luck finding a job, he could go to a locally-owned restaurant and offer to apprentice (might be easier at a locally-owned restaurant than a chain restaurant). School doesn't compare to hands-on experience.
If there are any private chefs in your city, he could offer to apprentice with one of them.
Brainstorm for ways other than school that will help him work towards his goal. There's no reason he can't go back to school in the future, after he's picked up some hands-on experience. Then again, after getting hands-on experience, he may find he can move forward without going back to school.
He may not be following up on jobs he's applied for because the jobs don't particularly interest him. But if he can find a way to work in a field that interests him, odds are good that he'll be more motivated to work.
===He thinks not providing him anything but the bare necessities will motivate (force) him to get a job.===
It may motivate him to leave home and he may end up in an undesireable situation.
If your son wants to take a break from school and opted to take responsibility for more things at home, would that be a middle ground your husband would agree to? Some ideas of things your son could do at home: pay bills and balance the checkbook (a skill that's necessary to know when he's on his own); buy groceries and prepare dinner; be sure your car always has gas and is clean; the yardwork; etc. Would your son be agreeable to doing some of those things on a regular basis instead of getting a paying job? Or does he have suggestions of ways he can contribute? Right now he may not feel he offers much value to the household (in his dad's eyes) if he's not working or in school, so brainstorm with him and think outside the box and take some ideas to your husband as alternatives.
Oh, going back to an earlier post in this thread, hanging out with friends, skateboarding and playing video games may be how your son is processing the pressure he's feeling. It may look to you like he's doing nothing, but in reality he may be doing the best he can to deal with the pressure without buckling under it.
Glenda
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm hoping that once he's home again we'll be able to pay for all
of that. Then my only obstacle will be my husband.-=-
It's probably not good to think of your husband as an obstacle.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of that. Then my only obstacle will be my husband.-=-
It's probably not good to think of your husband as an obstacle.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
== maybe school could be put on the back burner and he can look for jobs or apprenticeships that will specifically allow him to pick up some restaurant / chef'ing experience...<snip>...He may not be following up on jobs he's applied for because the jobs don't particularly interest him. But if he can find a way to work in a field that interests him, odds are good that he'll be more motivated to work.==
He has been applying at restaurants but can't seem to get his foot in the door. One place told him that although his desire was to work in the kitchen and they had openings in the kitchen, the personality test they administered him said he was better suited working directly with the customers and they didn't have any positions for that.
An apprenticeship would be wonderful. I've thought about that for awhile but am not really sure how one would go about getting one if it's not advertised. I guess the thing to do would be to just go to various restaurants and ask.
== If your son wants to take a break from school and opted to take responsibility for more things at home, would that be a middle ground your husband would agree to? Some ideas of things your son could do at home: pay bills and balance the checkbook (a skill that's necessary to know when he's on his own); buy groceries and prepare dinner; be sure your car always has gas and is clean; the yardwork; etc. Would your son be agreeable to doing some of those things on a regular basis instead of getting a paying job? Or does he have suggestions of ways he can contribute? Right now he may not feel he offers much value to the household (in his dad's eyes) if he's not working or in school, so brainstorm with him and think outside the box and take some ideas to your husband as alternatives.==
This type of thing might work. He already does things for me around the house. He does the grocery shopping a lot because I hate to do that and cooks meals (another one of my least favorite things to do). He cleans the car and does yard work when I ask him. He takes out the trash (most of the time). I think I need to find a better way of presenting all of this to my husband. Since he's not home much he doesn't see what happens on a daily basis.
== Oh, going back to an earlier post in this thread, hanging out with friends, skateboarding and playing video games may be how your son is processing the pressure he's feeling. It may look to you like he's doing nothing, but in reality he may be doing the best he can to deal with the pressure without buckling under it.==
I agree with this. I know my original post probably made it sound like I thought those things were equivalent to doing nothing but that's not how I think. Everyone else around me sees it that way so I was presenting it from their point of view.
Alysia
He has been applying at restaurants but can't seem to get his foot in the door. One place told him that although his desire was to work in the kitchen and they had openings in the kitchen, the personality test they administered him said he was better suited working directly with the customers and they didn't have any positions for that.
An apprenticeship would be wonderful. I've thought about that for awhile but am not really sure how one would go about getting one if it's not advertised. I guess the thing to do would be to just go to various restaurants and ask.
== If your son wants to take a break from school and opted to take responsibility for more things at home, would that be a middle ground your husband would agree to? Some ideas of things your son could do at home: pay bills and balance the checkbook (a skill that's necessary to know when he's on his own); buy groceries and prepare dinner; be sure your car always has gas and is clean; the yardwork; etc. Would your son be agreeable to doing some of those things on a regular basis instead of getting a paying job? Or does he have suggestions of ways he can contribute? Right now he may not feel he offers much value to the household (in his dad's eyes) if he's not working or in school, so brainstorm with him and think outside the box and take some ideas to your husband as alternatives.==
This type of thing might work. He already does things for me around the house. He does the grocery shopping a lot because I hate to do that and cooks meals (another one of my least favorite things to do). He cleans the car and does yard work when I ask him. He takes out the trash (most of the time). I think I need to find a better way of presenting all of this to my husband. Since he's not home much he doesn't see what happens on a daily basis.
== Oh, going back to an earlier post in this thread, hanging out with friends, skateboarding and playing video games may be how your son is processing the pressure he's feeling. It may look to you like he's doing nothing, but in reality he may be doing the best he can to deal with the pressure without buckling under it.==
I agree with this. I know my original post probably made it sound like I thought those things were equivalent to doing nothing but that's not how I think. Everyone else around me sees it that way so I was presenting it from their point of view.
Alysia
Sandra Dodd
-=-An apprenticeship would be wonderful. I've thought about that for
awhile but am not really sure how one would go about getting one if
it's not advertised. I guess the thing to do would be to just go to
various restaurants and ask. -=-
I think it's to work where a chef is and see if he likes him, and then
see if he can impress him.
Try hotels, resorts or casinos. Caterers. Maybe if he can't find a
kitchen job where they do fancy food, he could find a caterer who
would let him help, maybe even for free a few times, like a trial
run. It wouldn't be full time, but it would be experience and
learning opportunities and contacts.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
awhile but am not really sure how one would go about getting one if
it's not advertised. I guess the thing to do would be to just go to
various restaurants and ask. -=-
I think it's to work where a chef is and see if he likes him, and then
see if he can impress him.
Try hotels, resorts or casinos. Caterers. Maybe if he can't find a
kitchen job where they do fancy food, he could find a caterer who
would let him help, maybe even for free a few times, like a trial
run. It wouldn't be full time, but it would be experience and
learning opportunities and contacts.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
I got zero 'babble" from that piece, Deb. It describes my life to a
TEE or is that just a "T?" (Whatever.) I did the endless college thing
and a whole lot of other similar shifting around, being unsure what to
DO. I know planning is not something that school asks and neither did
my parents, and so I'm still pushing as hard as I can in that
"planning" direction. It's working. Slowly (surely).
I guess that puts a kibbosh on the old "late-bloomer" label I've been
wearing all my life. Thanks! I love shedding labels like that! I'm not
a late-bloomer after all. Schoolthink held me back more than I even
gave it credit for.
~Katherine
TEE or is that just a "T?" (Whatever.) I did the endless college thing
and a whole lot of other similar shifting around, being unsure what to
DO. I know planning is not something that school asks and neither did
my parents, and so I'm still pushing as hard as I can in that
"planning" direction. It's working. Slowly (surely).
I guess that puts a kibbosh on the old "late-bloomer" label I've been
wearing all my life. Thanks! I love shedding labels like that! I'm not
a late-bloomer after all. Schoolthink held me back more than I even
gave it credit for.
~Katherine
On 4/19/10, Deborah McKee Kelly <dlmckee@...> wrote:
> ***At 18 or 19 or 20, do they continue to unschool, hanging out at home,
> maybe working but maybe not or are there more expectations? Would you expect
> your late teen, early 20s child to work or go to college or would it be ok
> if they hung out at home and unschooled for a few more years? If you do have
> expectations that they work and/or go to college but they don't or won't,
> what would you do?***
>
> Call me crazy, family-oriented, over-involved, too emotional -- whatever --
> but I think if my kids hung around until they were in their late teens,
> early twenties, I'd be thrilled in many ways. Granted, I still have babies
> (and when I think of them going away as young adults, I get teary), but I
> also have a teen and pre-teen, and I can imagine them being around for a
> long, long time. Also, we run a family business, in a way that would make
> it really cool if they decided to be part of it when they are young adults.
> I don't expect them to, but if they wanted to, that would be fun.
>
> I think if you follow a philosophy of *unschooling,* but you think of it
> less as a *method of education* and more as just living and learning and
> loving life together, then the concern or fear or whatever about them not
> heading out on their own at a certain, proscribed age or point in life,
> might really not occur to you, or bother you that much. The idea of having
> "expectations" based on a certain age really doesn't make sense, given
> you've led your life as if the typical societal expectations (that they
> should read at 5, and be in Little League, and do Algebra I in 7th grade,
> and go to prom at 17) don't apply. Why should it suddenly matter at 18?
> Why expectations? Why, "Ok, now you're 18, time to either get a job or go
> to college"? I think that would fly in the face of unschooling/Always
> Learning principles and philosophy.
>
> If I think about just continuing to love life with my kids, and growing with
> them, I can't imagine them NOT going off and following their natural urges
> to become independent of us, and yet, I can totally imagine still supporting
> them here at our house, and having them be a part of our lives until they
> are able (financially or otherwise) and willing to go do their own thing.
>
> My husband and I, both formally over-educated beyond stupidity, have agreed
> for a long time that we don't care one way or another if our kids choose to
> go to college or not. College, and for that matter, further post-secondary
> education and credentialing, do not make life better or happier or more
> productive or whatever those things are supposed to promise for young
> adults. As for work, I fully believe that a young person who has grown up
> with lots of choices and independence has a natural tendency to seek out
> those activities that make them feel fulfilled or happy or content. I know
> for myself that when I was just 14 or 15, I was already imagining and
> dreaming about my own home, my own life separate from my parents, and that
> the mere excitement of being free to set up house when I was old enough to
> have a job and earn money and make that a reality was just fascinating. Our
> kids are already earning money, because they want to, not because we *make*
> them -- because it's fun and interesting and gives them the opportunity to
> buy stuff they want.
>
> If the idea of unschooling conjures fearful images of *lazy* or
> *unmotivated* young adults who would rather mooch off their parents in
> perpetuity, well, I have to just flatly disagree with that idea (it's such a
> silly cliche, anyway). A kid who has spent his or her young years working
> and playing and learning alongside caring, loving, interesting adults, is
> going to have every reason to become a caring, loving, interesting adult who
> is involved in relationships and activities him or herself. I can't imagine
> my passionate 9-year-old step-son losing interest in life, or becoming
> fearful of leaving our nest, unless he was somehow given the impression that
> he should lose interest, or that he isn't capable of seeking out his own,
> independent living situation.
>
> If anything, I think the school culture of being told what to do, being
> constantly judged against yourself and against others, of being put in a box
> with a label, of being bored out of your mind for long stretches, of being
> emotionally beat up regularly, could lead to that outcome much more
> commonly. How shocking for the typically-schooled young adult, at 18, to
> find oneself finally in a position to make decisions in a world of millions
> of decisions. To find oneself suddenly without a report card to tell you
> how you're doing, without a teacher or guidance counselor or guru telling
> you what line to get in, without a textbook or a class schedule! In my
> case, I knew the only answer was college, because I didn't know how to do
> anything BUT school. And I nearly had a nervous breakdown as the end of
> college approached. The answer? More school. And after that? More. It
> took a good damn brush with my own mortality to finally break free of the
> addiction to being told where to go, what to do, when. I learned that the
> only things I really, truly cared about in this life were: growing things,
> being with family, and writing. And so I quit jumping through hoops and
> followed those loves, many years after I could have embraced them. My whole
> life, I was told that growing things was "just a hobby," as was writing, and
> that family was what you had on the evenings and weekends when you got away
> from your job.
>
> Now, my husband and I farm and hang out with our family, despite multiple
> degrees and credentials and crap that never mattered. I don't want my kids
> to experience that hoop-jumping idiocy.
>
> I would almost be willing to bet that unschooling / always learning prepares
> kids more for the *responsibilities* and independence of life away from the
> nest than traditional school does, for all those reasons.
>
> I've babbled too much. I just *heard* in your posted questions the fear
> that a lot of people have when they think of unschooling (lazy kids doing
> nothing! When will they do Something???) -- and I think it requires a
> letting go of all those typical societal, age-based expectations.
>
> Deb
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Deb Lewis
***Try hotels, resorts or casinos. Caterers. Maybe if he can't find a
kitchen job where they do fancy food, he could find a caterer who
would let him help, maybe even for free a few times, like a trial
run. It wouldn't be full time, but it would be experience and
learning opportunities and contacts.***
National parks hire seasonal help. The pay's not great but he might find a kitchen job in some lodge in some great park like Yellowstone.
The oil companies and oil field services companies feed the guys on Alaska's North Slope pretty well, maybe he can get his resume to somebody at Alaska Petroleum Contractors or Halliburton or some other company and get a kitchen job.
Cruise ships?
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kitchen job where they do fancy food, he could find a caterer who
would let him help, maybe even for free a few times, like a trial
run. It wouldn't be full time, but it would be experience and
learning opportunities and contacts.***
National parks hire seasonal help. The pay's not great but he might find a kitchen job in some lodge in some great park like Yellowstone.
The oil companies and oil field services companies feed the guys on Alaska's North Slope pretty well, maybe he can get his resume to somebody at Alaska Petroleum Contractors or Halliburton or some other company and get a kitchen job.
Cruise ships?
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
== How shocking for the typically-schooled young adult, at 18, to
find oneself finally in a position to make decisions in a world of millions of decisions. To find oneself suddenly without a report card to tell you how you're doing, without a teacher or guidance counselor or guru telling you what line to get in, without a textbook or a class schedule! In my case, I knew the only answer was college, because I didn't know how to do anything BUT school. And I nearly had a nervous breakdown as the end of college approached. The answer? More school. And after that? More. ==
Makes me think of ex-cons who commit crimes so they will be sent back to prison (consciously and subconsciously) because they don't know how else to live.
Alysia
find oneself finally in a position to make decisions in a world of millions of decisions. To find oneself suddenly without a report card to tell you how you're doing, without a teacher or guidance counselor or guru telling you what line to get in, without a textbook or a class schedule! In my case, I knew the only answer was college, because I didn't know how to do anything BUT school. And I nearly had a nervous breakdown as the end of college approached. The answer? More school. And after that? More. ==
Makes me think of ex-cons who commit crimes so they will be sent back to prison (consciously and subconsciously) because they don't know how else to live.
Alysia
Sandra Dodd
-=- In my case, I knew the only answer was college, because I didn't
know how to do anything BUT school.-=-
-=-Makes me think of ex-cons who commit crimes so they will be sent
back to prison (consciously and subconsciously) because they don't
know how else to live.-=-
I LOVE libraries and universities. I would love to have been a
professor. Not in combination with the kids I had, but if I hadn't
had any children I would love, love LOVE to have been a professor of
some sort of history of something in the direction of folklore/Bible/
religion/medieval literature. I would never have had to leave
school. I could have an office at a university keep my library books
as long as I wanted to, get free books from authors and publishers and
get paid to talk to students in half-hour appointment, and eat at the
student union building and funky cafes within walking distance of my
own office full of books.
That would be like winning a big video game, for me, to go to school
long enough that they pay you to go to school.
But I wouldn't have liked giving bad grades or failing people or
putting people out of programs. I wouldn't have liked to deal with
bullshitters or cheaters.
Back to the topic of adult children and the value of college vs.
life... when someone keeps going back to school, that's respectable.
Staying in school for life is respectable.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
know how to do anything BUT school.-=-
-=-Makes me think of ex-cons who commit crimes so they will be sent
back to prison (consciously and subconsciously) because they don't
know how else to live.-=-
I LOVE libraries and universities. I would love to have been a
professor. Not in combination with the kids I had, but if I hadn't
had any children I would love, love LOVE to have been a professor of
some sort of history of something in the direction of folklore/Bible/
religion/medieval literature. I would never have had to leave
school. I could have an office at a university keep my library books
as long as I wanted to, get free books from authors and publishers and
get paid to talk to students in half-hour appointment, and eat at the
student union building and funky cafes within walking distance of my
own office full of books.
That would be like winning a big video game, for me, to go to school
long enough that they pay you to go to school.
But I wouldn't have liked giving bad grades or failing people or
putting people out of programs. I wouldn't have liked to deal with
bullshitters or cheaters.
Back to the topic of adult children and the value of college vs.
life... when someone keeps going back to school, that's respectable.
Staying in school for life is respectable.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elissa Jill
hi all,
I'm coming out of lurkdom to chime in on this topic.
I am currently a pastry chef in my latest career so I have some ideas.
Before thinking about culinary school, your son may find it extremely beneficial to work in the industry for a year or two first. Finding a prep cook job can be a challange for someone with no experience in restaurants. Most non-graduates start as a dishwasher, which in my opinion is the very best place to start. Dishwasher is the most important position in a kitchen. It helps one learn speed and attention to detail, two vital skills. Often times, when the restaurant is not busy, a dishwasher is utilized to do simple prep work, such as cleaning veggies, chopping, or making stock. Many dishwashers who prove their worth don't stay dishwashers for long. Prepping requires some skills that many people new to the industry aren't aware of, such as good knife skills and knowledge of the difference between cooking at home (for 2-6 people) vs cooking in quantity (anywhere between 10 and 50 servings). If he has never worked in a restaurant, attempting to step in to a non-entry level position such as prep cook can be difficult. I would expect someone who started as a DWer, who shows a willingness to learn, speed and stamina to be cooking on the line within a year. Restaurant cooking can be a physically and mentally exhausting job that many people decide is not for them. Finding that out before spending a ton of money on school is a good idea.
If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask me!
Elissa Jill
Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry�
-----Original Message-----
From: "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:40:01
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschooling and the Adult Child
***Try hotels, resorts or casinos. Caterers. Maybe if he can't find a
kitchen job where they do fancy food, he could find a caterer who
would let him help, maybe even for free a few times, like a trial
run. It wouldn't be full time, but it would be experience and
learning opportunities and contacts.***
National parks hire seasonal help. The pay's not great but he might find a kitchen job in some lodge in some great park like Yellowstone.
The oil companies and oil field services companies feed the guys on Alaska's North Slope pretty well, maybe he can get his resume to somebody at Alaska Petroleum Contractors or Halliburton or some other company and get a kitchen job.
Cruise ships?
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm coming out of lurkdom to chime in on this topic.
I am currently a pastry chef in my latest career so I have some ideas.
Before thinking about culinary school, your son may find it extremely beneficial to work in the industry for a year or two first. Finding a prep cook job can be a challange for someone with no experience in restaurants. Most non-graduates start as a dishwasher, which in my opinion is the very best place to start. Dishwasher is the most important position in a kitchen. It helps one learn speed and attention to detail, two vital skills. Often times, when the restaurant is not busy, a dishwasher is utilized to do simple prep work, such as cleaning veggies, chopping, or making stock. Many dishwashers who prove their worth don't stay dishwashers for long. Prepping requires some skills that many people new to the industry aren't aware of, such as good knife skills and knowledge of the difference between cooking at home (for 2-6 people) vs cooking in quantity (anywhere between 10 and 50 servings). If he has never worked in a restaurant, attempting to step in to a non-entry level position such as prep cook can be difficult. I would expect someone who started as a DWer, who shows a willingness to learn, speed and stamina to be cooking on the line within a year. Restaurant cooking can be a physically and mentally exhausting job that many people decide is not for them. Finding that out before spending a ton of money on school is a good idea.
If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask me!
Elissa Jill
Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry�
-----Original Message-----
From: "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:40:01
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschooling and the Adult Child
***Try hotels, resorts or casinos. Caterers. Maybe if he can't find a
kitchen job where they do fancy food, he could find a caterer who
would let him help, maybe even for free a few times, like a trial
run. It wouldn't be full time, but it would be experience and
learning opportunities and contacts.***
National parks hire seasonal help. The pay's not great but he might find a kitchen job in some lodge in some great park like Yellowstone.
The oil companies and oil field services companies feed the guys on Alaska's North Slope pretty well, maybe he can get his resume to somebody at Alaska Petroleum Contractors or Halliburton or some other company and get a kitchen job.
Cruise ships?
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]