fcgardner

Hi everyone,

I have been lurking as a newcomer for the last few days on this list and wanted to step out of the shadows briefly to say thank you.

I'm a 45 year-old mom with a just-turned-six son (as well as beautiful husband and stepdaughter, 16). We've decided to embark on the unschooling adventure after our son "graduates" from the montessori kindergarten he's been in, part-time, for the last two years. While his teacher is wonderful and the school has been very kind to us, it's consistently not been a good match for him. It's taken me this long to finally admit that, to SEE it, and to muster up the courage to do something about it.

Because Wes never went to school all five days or all day of the days he did go, we've had many many days at home mixed in that I believe to many would LOOK like unschooling. Of course those days happened in a wider context of our making him go to school even over his consistent objections - so obviously not unschooling.

Our parenting has been, to put it mildly, schizophrenic. Wes knows what it's like to follow his nose all day, to have parents facilitate his curiosity, to attend and respond to where he is at any given moment, to respect his choices (about food, baths, sleeping, TV, etc). And he knows what it's like to have his parents make him get out of bed and go to school through tears and frustration. I can already feel the exhale in our household at the prospect that that we are going to put down that part of our parenting.

I was very influenced in my teens and twenties by democratic and free schooling and by John Holt's writings, so a lot of the unschooling "principles" that shock or frighten or get bent by mainstream schoolers feel more like home to me. But I hadn't really visited them up close in the context of unschooling with my own son and in that way I can already feel that the inside of my head is shifting in pretty profound (to me anyway) ways.

I am acutely aware that our journey is going to be much smoother because of all of you who have lovingly and carefully paved the road ahead for us -- from fighting legal battles to nurturing these kinds of communities where we can learn from and support each other. And I think our road will be harder in some ways simply because of who I am and what my limitations are.

Sandra's BIG BOOK arrived in my mailbox Saturday afternoon and I just finished it this morning. I've read a number of unschooling books now and this one was the most food for my soul for where I am right now. I am so grateful for the work Sandra put into it and for all the voices and work of others (from her own children and husband to many of you) gathered therein.

I have a ton of topics I'd like to raise and hear thoughts on and undoubtedly more as I get more experience under my belt. But for the moment, I will keep lurking and reading and finding my feet.

Best to you all,

Florence


Sandra Dodd

-=-Sandra's BIG BOOK arrived in my mailbox Saturday afternoon and I
just finished it this morning. I've read a number of unschooling books
now and this one was the most food for my soul for where I am right
now. I am so grateful for the work Sandra put into it and for all the
voices and work of others (from her own children and husband to many
of you) gathered therein.-=-

I'm glad you liked that.

-=-We've decided to embark on the unschooling adventure after our son
"graduates" from the montessori kindergarten he's been in, part-time,
for the last two years. -=-

When is this "graduation"?

You wrote "it's consistently not been a good match for him." So...
Why is he going back?

-=-And he knows what it's like to have his parents make him get out of
bed and go to school through tears and frustration. I can already feel
the exhale in our household at the prospect that that we are going to
put down that part of our parenting.-=-

If your husband, let's say something extreme.... hit you. And you had
both decided that in May he was going to stop hitting you. And you
wrote to us and said "I can already feel the exhale of relief at the
prospect that he will stop hitting me..." what would you want us to
say?

Okay, that's way extreme.

How about you bought donuts. Say two dozen. And every time your son
eats one he feels sick, and gets the runs, and you say "Starting in
May, you don't have to eat any more of those donuts," and you told us
he had smiled and said thanks, as he looked at the 18 he had still
left to eat.

Sandra

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fcgardner

Dear Alex (Brian? is that two people or one person?)

Oh, dear, now I just knew it was a matter of minutes before someone asked that question.

Don't ask that question!

We are already asking that question!

I could give you a lot of blah blah words about closure and completion and stuff, about gratitude to the community he's been part of, about his loving teacher and her feelings. But I will spare you. Because we know they are just words. (or rather, I care a lot about words, as a writer, so what I really mean is "excuses.").

I'm going to go hold my son's new leopard gecko now before I go pick him up at school and think on this some more.

Can I hold you personally responsible if I choose to pull him out now? That wouldn't run counter to the whole choice principle of unschooling, now would it? :-)

Oh Alex. You see, what if it was just a matter of someone saying it out loud and you went and did it?

More soon no doubt,

Florence

--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> Why does need to graduate before you pull him out???
> Why not bring all the peace you are looking forward to now into your home?
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

fcgardner

>
> When is this "graduation"?

End of May. Accountability group's school year starts June 1 (who cares, right?) -- that's School's Out (SOS) Accountability Group; by the way, we're in SC.
>

> If your husband, let's say something extreme.... hit you. And you had
> both decided that in May he was going to stop hitting you. And you
> wrote to us and said "I can already feel the exhale of relief at the
> prospect that he will stop hitting me..." what would you want us to
> say?
>
> Okay, that's way extreme.

Sandra, this actually made me spit my tea out laughing. I know, it's serious business these choices about our son. But your sense of humor I appreciate. Even if you didn't actually mean it to be funny.
>
> How about you bought donuts. Say two dozen. And every time your son
> eats one he feels sick, and gets the runs, and you say "Starting in
> May, you don't have to eat any more of those donuts," and you told us
> he had smiled and said thanks, as he looked at the 18 he had still
> left to eat.
>

Oh and this one makes me sad. I've had terrible gut problems for the last five years developed in part because of post-partum exhaustion and stress and a series of bad gut infections. So getting enough rest and healing and not being able to eat more than a very few kinds of food and working very hard to heal so I can be present for my beautiful son in a better way (and my husband and my stepdaughter) has been a huge part of the last five years. My son has known me a lot as a "sick" mom in addition to being a loving mom and a lot of other good things. Anyway, doughnuts do in fact make me very sick and this image is too close to home almost. Or just close enough to make me cry.

Wes goes happily to school some days. Every SINGLE day I pick him up and ask him how his day was he says "great!" -- so this is not maybe the same as making him very sick or hitting him repeatedly. You might be able to convince me otherwise. I don't think your analogies are unreasonable. I just don't want to give the impression that his days are all suffering. He plays with his best friend much of the day at school. He is proud of the ways he's become more confident at school. None of this is to justify school. It's just to say that while it's not a good match for him long-term, this school, this style of schooling, and while I disagree with the entire coercive paradigm that schooling IS, I don't think going to this school RIGHT now part-time, for three more months, while I get myself more ready, is a terrible thing. Maybe it is. I don't know. I'm obviously wavering.

He's a very articulate thoughtful guy: maybe I should ask him what he wants to do.

Thank you again for all you do. It means the world to me right now.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Go pick him up now! Hold me responsible if you want.
Do you care more about the teacher' feelings than your son's?
So go. Now you have an excuse. Alex told you to do it.
Use that if you want.

and about asking questions- be prepared to be asked many more dificult questions in this group.
You don;t have to answer any, but questions will be asked!


Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

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Sandra Dodd

-=-
Can I hold you personally responsible if I choose to pull him out now?
That wouldn't run counter to the whole choice principle of
unschooling, now would it? :-)-=-

Holding her responsible or pulling him out? Would YOU choose to pull
him out, or would you give him the option?

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-Accountability group's school year starts June 1 (who cares,
right?) -- that's School's Out (SOS) Accountability Group; by the way,
we're in SC.-=-

Yeah, really. Honestly. Who cares? <g>

Is your son younger than compulsory school age? NO college, no job
application, asks whether someone finished Montessori Kindergarten.

-=-Wes goes happily to school some days. Every SINGLE day I pick him
up and ask him how his day was he says "great!" -- so this is not
maybe the same as making him very sick or hitting him repeatedly. You
might be able to convince me otherwise. -=-

You will not find me saying "don't listen to your own son."

What if from now on he only goes to school on the "happily" days? It
doesn't have to be all or nothing.

You're the one who told us it wasn't a good match for him. I believed
you. Wavering is okay. <g>

Sandra



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Sandra Dodd

-=-Accountability group's school year starts June 1 (who cares,
right?) -- that's School's Out (SOS) Accountability Group; by the way,
we're in SC.-=-

Yeah, really. Honestly. Who cares? <g>

Is your son younger than compulsory school age? NO college, no job
application, asks whether someone finished Montessori Kindergarten.

-=-Wes goes happily to school some days. Every SINGLE day I pick him
up and ask him how his day was he says "great!" -- so this is not
maybe the same as making him very sick or hitting him repeatedly. You
might be able to convince me otherwise. -=-

You will not find me saying "don't listen to your own son."

What if from now on he only goes to school on the "happily" days? It
doesn't have to be all or nothing.

You're the one who told us it wasn't a good match for him. I believed
you. Wavering is okay. <g>

Sandra



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Jenny Cyphers

***Can I hold you personally responsible if I choose to pull him out now?***

Your son could hold you personally responsible for keeping him somewhere he didn't want to be for longer than you actually needed to do so. It could be something he remembers for years and years and years. Chamille remembers the one time I took her gameboy away when she was 4, and will still remark on it. She also remembers the one time I made her clean her room before the neighbor kids could come over and play, when she was about 5 or 6. She's 15 now and a nice person, but those little things, that I didn't think were a big deal at the time, were very much a bigger deal than I'd thought.

***That wouldn't run counter to the whole choice principle of unschooling, now would it? :-)***

Does your son have a choice as to whether or not he wants to continue going to his school? If he doesn't, then that would run counter to unschooling.





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Jenny Cyphers

***Wes goes happily to school some days. Every SINGLE day I pick him up and ask him how his day was he says "great!" -- so this is not maybe the same as making him very sick or hitting him repeatedly.***

And all those days he doesn't go happily say what to him exactly? "I don't care how you feel, you need to go anyway." or "You don't really know how you feel because you come home happy." or "I don't have a choice." or "My mom is bigger than me and will tell me what to do, so it doesn't matter whether I want to go or not."

Perhaps he feels "great!" and says "great!" because he's finally getting to go home and not be there any more.





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Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 8, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:

> Perhaps he feels "great!" and says "great!" because he's finally
> getting to go home and not be there any more.

When Kathryn tried 2nd grade, as the good started becoming routine
and no longer outweighing the bad, she'd grouse to me when she came
home. But when Carl came home and asked how her day was she'd say
"Great!" meaning "Great now that you're home we can do fun stuff!" So
of course he thought she was having a grand time in school. I had to
set him straight ;-) (After 2 months she decided she was done.)

If a person doesn't have the choice about doing something, one coping
mechanism is to make the best of it. So "great" doesn't necessarily
mean out of all the things in the world, they've had a great time. It
means great relative to the situation he's stuck in.

If he's asking to stay home, even if there's good stuff at school he
enjoys, the bad parts are outweighing it.

Joyce




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Su Penn

On Mar 8, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> If he's asking to stay home, even if there's good stuff at school he
> enjoys, the bad parts are outweighing it.

Some friends of ours took their son out of school in December; he'd been in fourth grade. At first, they planned for him to finish the term and not go back after the winter holidays. Finishing the term was partly his choice, because he was working on a project he wanted to finish, and he wanted to sing in the choir's end-of-semester show, and he thought he'd miss his friends and wanted to get as much time as possible with them before he left.

I think of the three weeks he planned to continue going to school, he made it two or three days. Not in a row. And with at least a week to go, he just admitted he was done and stopped altogether. Once he had the choice, even the parts of school he had most liked didn't seem worth going for.

I've had something of the same experience when quitting a bad job--giving my two weeks' notice and discovering that in the process I lost whatever defense mechanisms had allowed me to keep it together and keep working there, and that last two weeks just feeling intolerable. I don't think I've ever not worked my two weeks notice, but my partner didn't finish his notice period at a terrible job when he'd been offered a new one a few years ago.

Su, mom to Eric 8; Carl, almost 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com

fcgardner

I'm sorry I communicated this badly. I was operating under the assumption that we all understood that, me included, that Wes' "great" didn't mean that school is in fact always great for him -- he says many things about school at many different times and it's taken awhile for me anyway to sort through it all and match it up with what I was simultaneously learning about him (and he was learning about himself).

I'm totally with you on the analysis of what that "Great!" may mean (and of course sometimes he says a great deal more than "Great!" which adds flesh to the parts of school he may be enjoying). I've spent hundreds of hours in class with him watching...which of course is potential "observer contamination" (ie, when I'm there he's happy). My only point was to add a little nuance to my initial statement that this school is a bad match for him.

At a different moment I think there's an interesting conversation to be had about how we interpret "what our kids want" when knowing and communicating wants in general -- even for grownups -- is often a very tough thing to do and understand and that we sometimes articulate contradictory wants (and even have contradictory wants).

We are all stumbling towards ecstasy. Or something we hope is better, freer, more loving, all in our most imperfect ways.

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 8, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
>
> > Perhaps he feels "great!" and says "great!" because he's finally
> > getting to go home and not be there any more.
>
> When Kathryn tried 2nd grade, as the good started becoming routine
> and no longer outweighing the bad, she'd grouse to me when she came
> home. But when Carl came home and asked how her day was she'd say
> "Great!" meaning "Great now that you're home we can do fun stuff!" So
> of course he thought she was having a grand time in school. I had to
> set him straight ;-) (After 2 months she decided she was done.)
>
> If a person doesn't have the choice about doing something, one coping
> mechanism is to make the best of it. So "great" doesn't necessarily
> mean out of all the things in the world, they've had a great time. It
> means great relative to the situation he's stuck in.
>
> If he's asking to stay home, even if there's good stuff at school he
> enjoys, the bad parts are outweighing it.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Kristi

===If a person doesn't have the choice about doing something, one coping mechanism is to make the best of it. So "great" doesn't necessarily mean out of all the things in the world, they've had a great time. It means great relative to the situation he's stuck in.===

Joyce nailed it, as usual.

I've pulled my daughter out of preschool (after 3 tries at it - and the classes were only 2 hrs long), Kindergarten (after 10 days - 7 of which she missed), and 1st Grade (after 8 days, 7 of which she missed). In between Kindergarten and 1st Grade, she went to Kindergarten for one school year.

During her first try at Kindergarten she was 5. I had always considered myself as a Mother who tried hard to meet her needs. She has always been a highly-attached, and I knew this whole school thing was going to be tough. But when it became tougher than anything I'd ever experienced as a parent, I really felt like I was lost at sea. I felt so accountable to the schools, the attendance policy, the idea of an attendance board, the juvenile justice system, my friends, my family—if she didn't go to school what did that say about ME????

Thankfully, the schools asked me to pull her out. They suggested that we wait a year, she was young, she could try again the next year. It all sounded like a huge relief to me, so we did. And then, before the next year was to start, she and I sat down and had a talk about school and whether she wanted to stay home or go to school. She decided she wanted to try Kindergarten again. So we did. After about 10 days she decided she didn't want to go. Again, I felt all these huge emotions rise up in me. Again, I worried, so I decided I needed to talk to someone with more experience than me (and I hadn't discovered this list yet).

I consulted with Scott Noelle who asked me very simple, straightforward questions that I had been unable to ask myself. "What is the worst that will happen if she misses days of school?" "If she misses more days than the schools allow, what are your rights?" "If you honor your daughter's desire to stay home, what do you think might happen?" So, I began to look at this as a choice. The day after I had my consultation, she didn't want to go. I said, okay. And I left it at that. The next day she got up and asked to go to school. She didn't miss a single day after that, not for the rest of the year.

However, it wasn't exactly easy. She dropped all her outside activities...dance, gymnastics, choir. She insisted I park in exactly the same place every single day. She refused to walk or ride her bike or scooter even though we only lived blocks away. She refused to let anyone but me drop her off or pick her up. She wanted the exact same snacks and lunch for weeks and weeks on end. Any little disruption to any piece of her routine caused massive upheaval for her emotionally. But every day when I picked her up and I asked how things had been, she always said "Great."

Looking back on all this, I see that she was coping in the best manner that she could. I can see that it's because I never told her she had a choice beyond that one day. The choice to send her to school or not had been mine momentarily, but once she became the "model student" I abandoned the choice and I never extended that option to her. Remarkably, when 1st grade rolled around, and I saw the direction the school went making 1st grade "real school with real work and real homework and no play" I knew that this choice would be extended to her. Thankfully, I made it clear from the get go, and when the 2nd week of school pulled around and we had pulled out, we all sighed a huge breath of relief.

===while I disagree with the entire coercive paradigm that schooling IS, I don't think going to this school RIGHT now part-time, for three more months, while I get myself more ready, is a terrible thing. Maybe it is. I don't know. I'm obviously wavering.===

If you decide to pull your son out, you can still spend 3 or (many) more months getting yourself ready. You will have that many more days spending time with him. It's not as if you can absorb all the information on these kinds of lists and books, etc. and then suddenly just be "more ready." What are you expecting to be ready for? Understanding Unschooling and how it will take shape in your life takes time. It takes lots and lots and lots of reading and reflecting. It takes hard work to observe what your brain reacts with, and then to consciously shift your thoughts towards the direction you are moving in. Once I realized that the school itself is what was causing damage to my daughter, the choice became clear. There was no wavering. Ready or not. But the relief we felt was massive and deep. I think asking your son what he wants is an excellent idea. Maybe what you need to be ready for is his answer.

Kristi Beguin

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I think it is simple.
Next time he has school you ask him: " do you want to go or stay home?"
IF he wants to stay you let him stay and go have fun. If he says he wants to go then you take him.
Everyday ask him that question and listen to him.


Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/




_

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Sandra Dodd

-=-We are all stumbling towards ecstasy. Or something we hope is
better, freer, more loving, all in our most imperfect ways.-=-

The purpose of this list isn't to stumble as a group. It's for people
to see where they want to be as to unschooling, and take direct small
steps toward that.

There are several new members on the list, and I'd like to ask people
to stay on topic as much as possible, not to post unnecessarily, not
to take things personally and not to assume that the list is new just
because you've just joined.

For anyone for whom this list isn't helpful, either stop reading or
drop off or something, but posting "this isn't helpful" isn't at all
helpful. We're not doing one-on-one counselling. We're discussing
ideas as ideas. Even if one person is totally missing the point, five
or ten other people are making great jumps in their understanding and
not even posting a word.

http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-IF he wants to stay you let him stay and go have fun. If he says he
wants to go then you take him.
Everyday ask him that question and listen to him.-=-

And maybe he'll want to sleep later and then go in late. And maybe
he'll want to come home early one day. I wouldn't make an "all or
nothing" thing about it if you have the option not to.

Sandra

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[email protected]

<For anyone for whom this list isn't helpful, either stop reading or
<drop off or something, but posting "this isn't helpful" isn't at all
<helpful. We're not doing one-on-one counselling. We're discussing
<ideas as ideas. Even if one person is totally missing the point, five
<or ten other people are making great jumps in their understanding and
<not even posting a word. >

I'd like to echo this. Sometimes I've not got the answer I thought I wanted from these good people. 100% of the time so far, reflection has shown it to be the advice that I needed.

Jude x






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Jenny Cyphers

***Finishing the term was partly his choice, because he was working on a project he wanted to finish, and he wanted to sing in the choir's end-of-semester show, and he thought he'd miss his friends and wanted to get as much time as possible with them before he left.

I think of the three weeks he planned to continue going to school, he made it two or three days. Not in a row. And with at least a week to go, he just admitted he was done and stopped altogether. Once he had the choice, even the parts of school he had most liked didn't seem worth going for.***

There is a local family that recently took their kids out of school. We met them at last years Life Is Good Conference. Nice family, all of them. That conference was in May, and they all made the choice to finish off the year. In hindsight, and it's almost a year later, they wonder why they did that. It seems really meaningless after you've taken the plunge and finally done it, all those reasons one stayed instead of just jumping in.

Lots of people all over the internet can give people good reasons for keeping a kid in school and justifying those reasons! I'd like to think that on an unschooling list, all of us can find good reasons to take a child out now, especially if that child is having problems or tears or upset.

I've never met a person who's left their kids in school and then taken them out, who hasn't regretted that decision. The woman who initiated this thread has left the list because we weren't able to justify her reasons for keeping her son in school for a few more months. For some reason she targeted me because I pissed her off and she spewed a bunch of ugly to me on the side, like 5 pages worth if I were to print it out.

If I ever piss any of you guys off, by something I've written will you please assume good intent behind my words and ask me what I mean. It will help you to understand where I'm coming from and give me a chance to reword what I've said in a way that might make more sense. It's good for me to really think about ways to word things, something I try really hard to do in the first place! Also, I really think that this list is very much a good place to do just that! Words matter!

What matters to me personally, is living a life that doesn't involve a ton of regrets. There are things that I regret from the past that I can't undo! Hopefully sharing those things will help others not make the same mistakes!





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Sandra Dodd

-=-I've never met a person who's left their kids in school and then
taken them out, who hasn't regretted that decision. -=-

Some have written about that, and some is collected here (with other
kinds of regrets):

http://sandradodd.com/ifonly



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[email protected]

Florence said: "Oh, dear, now I just knew it was a matter of minutes before someone asked that question.

Don't ask that question!

We are already asking that question!

I could give you a lot of blah blah words about closure and completionand stuff, about gratitude to the community he's been part of, abouthis loving teacher and her feelings. But I will spare you. Because weknow they are just words. (or rather, I care a lot about words, as awriter, so what I really mean is "excuses.")."


If you are wavering back and forth so much to this question, then you already know the answer. You should ask him what he would like to do and if he wants to be pulled out now, then you should do it. Please do not force him to go to school for 3 more months just so you can say that he completed it.

I know this is the right thing to do from experience. My middle child started homeschooling in the beginning of what would have been his 5th grade school year. He went to school for 2 months of 5th grade before I got wise (after much research and reading about homeschooling) and pulled him out. I homeschooled him that year (we lived in NC at the time). My oldest daughter continued in public middle school as that is what she wanted. My youngest daughter was too young to even think about school or homeschool (we hadn't learned about unschooling yet).

We moved back to our hometown in Ohio the next year. I was not clear on Ohio laws about homeschooling. I thought that there was more involved as far as notification and having to report everything we did so I chose to enroll my son in an online public cyber school. (I have since read the Ohio Homeschooling laws very completely.) He went to this cyber school for 3 years. He liked it better than going to actual public school but still hated certain aspects of it.

My oldest daughter finally decided that she wanted to go to the cyber school too when she was half way through her 10th grade public school year. I pulled her out and enrolled her in the cyber school as well. In the meantime, my youngest daughter had started kindergarten and then went on to first grade at the local public elementary school. She hated it (for the most part).

When I look back now, I realize that I made the decision to pull my older two children out of public school much easier than I did my youngest. I think that was because I knew that the older two had learned what I refer to as "the basics", reading, writing, and basic math. I knew that my youngest hated school but I was afraid that I would not be able to teach her "the basics". It wasn't until I found unschooling that I realized that I wasn't supposed to "teach" her anything, and that she was learning all of the time. But I was still scared. Was I doing the right thing? What would my family and friends think? My thinking wavered back and forth for the whole summer before she was supposed to start 2nd grade.

I went ahead and pulled my oldest two out of the cyber school. I sent our superintendent the homeschooling notification for them. But I was still very afraid to make the move to pull my youngest daughter out. We went to the 2nd grade open house the week before school began to meet her teacher. I bought all of the school supplies. I still wasn't convinced that I was doing the right thing but I wasn't sure enough to make the leap to what I knew would ultimately be best for her. She went to the first day of 2nd grade. She hated it.

I typed up the homeschooling notification letter that night to our superintendent and put it in the mail the next day. I called the school's attendance line and left a message that my daughter would not be returning to school because we had decided to homeschool. I did NOT make my daughter go back the next day or until I got the letter of approval from the superintendent. I haven't had any problem. I received his letter about 2 to 3 weeks later. I've never had any one question me about not having her go back. And you know what, I finally realized that I made the right decision. It's been the best decision that I've made.

Sure, I made some of my family members mad but they are coming around. My sister didn't talk to me for weeks (she's attending college to get her Master's in Education, go figure, lol). My mom still asks me questions about reading and writing. My friends still say things like "aren't you studying with her at that time?" when I've already explained to them that we don't have a curriculum. But one thing that sticks in my head the most is when I hear people on this list saying "do you care more about what others think than what your own children think?". No...I do not care more about what others think. I DO care about what my children think.

And, yes, we do have some issues that we are working through but unschooling with my children is probably the best decision that I've ever made. I wouldn't make your son go back for one more day if that is not what he wants to do.

Take care,
Sherri








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Katrine Clip

Jenny's words resonates with me in my situation. *MY SON* may hold me (us)
responsible for forcing him to finish his year at school. But I don't have a
choice, my husband will NOT let him come home yet, he must graduate 5th
grade and elementary school first.

We pulled out our two second graders in November, and big brother is
watching them live & learn happily at home (which looks a lot to him like
doing nothing and he's jealous). My husband is willing to let him decide for
next year to be homeschooled, but he needs closure first. My husband needs
closure, some kind of "document" that at least one of his sons completed
something, be it only elementary school! And I can't do anything about it,
other than informing my dear husband about what I'm reading and learning
about unschooling.

I'm worried about what this unfairness does to my oldest son. Some days he's
furious about it, other days no evident emotions (apathy? helplessness?
giving up?). I feel guilty about being happy those days he's truly too sick
to go to school. I purposefully get appointments for him during the school
day to give him a break. We are counting the days to summer, it's exactly 3
months now to summer break.

I hope the OP will take her young child out now, or just use the preschool
as daycare the days she needs childcare!
Maybe it's also a financial question, like you can't get your money back if
you quit school now?

-Katrine

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:

>
>
> ***Can I hold you personally responsible if I choose to pull him out
> now?***
>
> Your son could hold you personally responsible for keeping him somewhere he
> didn't want to be for longer than you actually needed to do so.
>


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Sandra Dodd

-=-MY SON* may hold me (us)
responsible for forcing him to finish his year at school. But I don't
have a
choice, my husband will NOT let him come home yet, he must graduate 5th
grade and elementary school first.-=-

Consider finding some things here to share with your husband if your
son is very unhappy in 5th grade:

http://sandradodd.com/ifonly

Your marriage is more important than yes or no on 5th grade, but
marriages last for years, too.
On the other hand, graduating from the 5th grade is absolutely
worthless unless someone wants to go to 6th grade without tests or
special applications.

Even if he quit now, next year they'd let him into 6th grade unless he
was on the verge of failure. And I know some percentage of 5th
graders *are* "on the verge of failure. How sad, for a ten or eleven
year old child. Or twelve year old, if the child has already been
held back a year before and so began 5th grade as a certified failure.

Meanwhile, back in unschooling world, there aren't any kids who are
failures. (Some parents could use remedial reminders, but the kids
are okay.)

-=-I feel guilty about being happy those days he's truly too sick
to go to school. I purposefully get appointments for him during the
school
day to give him a break. -=-

Don't feel guilty. Find joy in all the joy you can find!

-=-I hope the OP will take her young child out now, or just use the
preschool
as daycare the days she needs childcare!-=-

The original poster quit the list in a big huff, assuring me that she
never asked anyone for advice (and on and on). Her child might be
better off in school for a while. I think if she can get unschooling,
it might make her feel much better about herself, her son, everything
in her life. If she can get it.

Still, as usual, this discussion will be useful for others reading.

-=-Maybe it's also a financial question, like you can't get your money
back if
you quit school now?-=-

If you can't get your money back for a six pack of something that made
you puke after the first two, how will it help financially to drink
the other four just because they're paid for? Paying for a whole year
of school doesn't mean an unhappy child will benefit from finishing it
out. If the money's gone, it's gone. Look at the child, not the
checkbook.

Sandra

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Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Katrine Clip <katrine@...> wrote:
>
> Jenny's words resonates with me in my situation. *MY SON* may hold me (us)
> responsible for forcing him to finish his year at school. But I don't have a
> choice, my husband will NOT let him come home yet, he must graduate 5th
> grade and elementary school first.
>
>



Here's my "$10 on the table" that says three years from now he'll look back and wonder why on earth it mattered.

Bob

Jenny Cyphers

***Here's my "$10 on the table" that says three years from now he'll look back and wonder why on earth it mattered.***


That is exactly the feeling of the family that we know that waited it out for another 1 1/2 months. It didn't even take 3 yrs. It took less than a year for them to see that it really didn't matter. All that stuff they were holding onto, made no difference once they left it all behind.





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shirlinda_momof3

These options sound good until you factor in compulsory attendance laws. We may not like them, but we must abide by them. Choose his schooling method and then stick with it. You can always change later.


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-IF he wants to stay you let him stay and go have fun. If he says he
> wants to go then you take him.
> Everyday ask him that question and listen to him.-=-
>
> And maybe he'll want to sleep later and then go in late. And maybe
> he'll want to come home early one day. I wouldn't make an "all or
> nothing" thing about it if you have the option not to.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-These options sound good until you factor in compulsory attendance
laws. We may not like them, but we must abide by them. Choose his
schooling method and then stick with it. You can always change later.-=-

He's in Montessori kindergarten, and it' not a "compulsory attendance
law" situation.

-=-We may not like them, but we must abide by them.-=-

That might be speaking too much for the whole group, that "we"
statement.

I don't mind compulsory attendance laws. I think 18 is too old, and
crazy, but I understand the purpose of the laws within the context of
the U.S.

I didn't exactly abide by the laws, but I didn't talk about it much
because I wasn't wanting to invite trouble or to encourage mass
anarchy. <g> Holly was never registered. She's 18 and no one
officially ever noticed she wasn't in school. God knows I wasn't
hiding out. Kirby was registered the first four years, and Marty the
first year.

Penalties in New Mexico were slim to nonexistent (meaning nonexistent
on the first notice, when the state would be required to notify me
that I was not in compliance with the law and needed to file the
proper forms). It was a risk I took for my own reasons and
knowingly. It's an "I" statement for sure, and not a "we."

-=-Choose his schooling method and then stick with it. You can always
change later.-=-

By "stick with it" it seems maybe you mean supporting all the school's
wishes? That's too much "sticking with it" for me. Here's what I
wrote about my sister's situation, years back. It has helped some
families feel better about not being fully school-supportive.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice

Sandra

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Ed Wendell

Check the law for your state / government though as it may not be what you think it is - for instance in Missouri compulsory school age is not until age 7 - not at age 5 and kindergarten as most think!

Lisa W.





These options sound good until you factor in compulsory attendance laws.



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