Fell for it. WW3
Vidyut Kale
Okay, so after the enduring conflict with the MIL, I finally snapped.
Two days ago, we had a 'bor nahan' its a ceremony where a child is showered
with food stuff (dry, sweet). Unfortunately, it was a traumatic experience
for Nisarga. He fell asleep waiting for the guests to arrive. Was rudely
awakened with a shower of strange things falling on his head. Even I was
wearing a traditional sari, which while soft, was a very strange experience
for him. I changed as quickly as I could, and took him into the bedroom to
calm and quieten (and clean). Traumatic, but okay, it was done.
Today, the MIL came up with yet another ceremony idea (each time, she says
its the last until he becomes a year old - we've had 4 of these 'lasts' and
he's 4 months old). I said I was not comfortable with all this, and once
Nisarga was able to talk and make decisions, she could ask him herself,
until then, the answer was no.
She gave me a long lecture about religious obligations toward my son, and
how irresponsible I was, and what not. Said son woke up, wanted attention. I
got up to take him in, she took him from me on the pretext of playing with
him. Lecture went on and on and on. Son got upset, started crying. Till this
point, I was calm, matter-of-fact. She kept ignoring all tactful prompts to
return him, knowing I'd walk out once I got him. Son kept crying, hiccuping,
really upset.
I blew a fuse and laid out my 'final word'. Me no attend, son no attend, me
no pay. nada.
She kept holding on to him, telling me that I don't deserve to stay in her
home and to go away and so on. I simply told her to return my son and we
could talk about this when I return. In the meanwhile to consider carefully
if she was serious about wanting me out. For one, her son and grandson would
be out with me. For another, if we took a loan to pay for a new home, we
wouldn't be able to afford to pay her any money for running the existing two
homes. Finally, her husband has chosen to live apart. She is telling us to
get out. Is this driving everyone away what she wants in life?
Took son and walked out.
I know I hurt her, but I think its better than us both going through the
continuing pain of expectations, dashed expectations, hurtful behaviour,
incompatible religious beliefs, etc.
When I went out after Nisarga slept, she avoided the subject. I left it
alone figuring that if she really wants it, she will bring it up. Till then,
I'm not going to trigger such subjects. Tempting as it feels to ditch her,
she isn't really sane enough to be let loose on the world, and her husband
and younger son couldn't care less. My husband cares, but if the choice is
his son and me and her.... nope. I care (I haven't suffered for as many
years), but this often gets on my nerves, particularly since the others just
shun her, and I can see how much she is hurt by that. It feels incredibly
powerless to see her doing those same things over and over and get hurt over
and over.
So here I am. Wondering if this temporary subdued version that usually lasts
for two days is a good opportunity to also establish some ground rules on
her treatment of my son (playful hitting, forcibly turning his head away
from certain things, taking his toys away, etc) or if it would be like
hitting her when she's low.....
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Two days ago, we had a 'bor nahan' its a ceremony where a child is showered
with food stuff (dry, sweet). Unfortunately, it was a traumatic experience
for Nisarga. He fell asleep waiting for the guests to arrive. Was rudely
awakened with a shower of strange things falling on his head. Even I was
wearing a traditional sari, which while soft, was a very strange experience
for him. I changed as quickly as I could, and took him into the bedroom to
calm and quieten (and clean). Traumatic, but okay, it was done.
Today, the MIL came up with yet another ceremony idea (each time, she says
its the last until he becomes a year old - we've had 4 of these 'lasts' and
he's 4 months old). I said I was not comfortable with all this, and once
Nisarga was able to talk and make decisions, she could ask him herself,
until then, the answer was no.
She gave me a long lecture about religious obligations toward my son, and
how irresponsible I was, and what not. Said son woke up, wanted attention. I
got up to take him in, she took him from me on the pretext of playing with
him. Lecture went on and on and on. Son got upset, started crying. Till this
point, I was calm, matter-of-fact. She kept ignoring all tactful prompts to
return him, knowing I'd walk out once I got him. Son kept crying, hiccuping,
really upset.
I blew a fuse and laid out my 'final word'. Me no attend, son no attend, me
no pay. nada.
She kept holding on to him, telling me that I don't deserve to stay in her
home and to go away and so on. I simply told her to return my son and we
could talk about this when I return. In the meanwhile to consider carefully
if she was serious about wanting me out. For one, her son and grandson would
be out with me. For another, if we took a loan to pay for a new home, we
wouldn't be able to afford to pay her any money for running the existing two
homes. Finally, her husband has chosen to live apart. She is telling us to
get out. Is this driving everyone away what she wants in life?
Took son and walked out.
I know I hurt her, but I think its better than us both going through the
continuing pain of expectations, dashed expectations, hurtful behaviour,
incompatible religious beliefs, etc.
When I went out after Nisarga slept, she avoided the subject. I left it
alone figuring that if she really wants it, she will bring it up. Till then,
I'm not going to trigger such subjects. Tempting as it feels to ditch her,
she isn't really sane enough to be let loose on the world, and her husband
and younger son couldn't care less. My husband cares, but if the choice is
his son and me and her.... nope. I care (I haven't suffered for as many
years), but this often gets on my nerves, particularly since the others just
shun her, and I can see how much she is hurt by that. It feels incredibly
powerless to see her doing those same things over and over and get hurt over
and over.
So here I am. Wondering if this temporary subdued version that usually lasts
for two days is a good opportunity to also establish some ground rules on
her treatment of my son (playful hitting, forcibly turning his head away
from certain things, taking his toys away, etc) or if it would be like
hitting her when she's low.....
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know I hurt her, but I think its better than us both going
through the
continuing pain of expectations, dashed expectations, hurtful behaviour,
incompatible religious beliefs, etc.-=-
That's a big deal, though, to be hurtful and know it.
Can your husband mediate this and can you figure out ways to gently
arrange for some time to figure out how to live in parallel?
I know expectations in India are very foreign to people outside of
there, but the reality is that you'll be re-deciding as the days and
weeks go on whether you want to keep unschooling or not. And you
can't say for absolute sure that you will never change your mind.
It might be that the best way to handle this would be to say "For now,
we're doing this; if it stops working we'll try something else."
With that stance, it will be easier for you to be kind to others, and
harder for them to want to talk you out of your dangerous-seeming
longterm plan.
-=-So here I am. Wondering if this temporary subdued version that
usually lasts
for two days is a good opportunity to also establish some ground rules
on
her treatment of my son (playful hitting, forcibly turning his head away
from certain things, taking his toys away, etc) or if it would be like
hitting her when she's low.....-=-
I'd wait a day or two. Maybe your husband could be there when you ask
his mother not to be so physical with your son, nott o take things
away from him or turn his head. But I recommend you go a little at a
time and not a big threatening ultimatum that you might all regret.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
through the
continuing pain of expectations, dashed expectations, hurtful behaviour,
incompatible religious beliefs, etc.-=-
That's a big deal, though, to be hurtful and know it.
Can your husband mediate this and can you figure out ways to gently
arrange for some time to figure out how to live in parallel?
I know expectations in India are very foreign to people outside of
there, but the reality is that you'll be re-deciding as the days and
weeks go on whether you want to keep unschooling or not. And you
can't say for absolute sure that you will never change your mind.
It might be that the best way to handle this would be to say "For now,
we're doing this; if it stops working we'll try something else."
With that stance, it will be easier for you to be kind to others, and
harder for them to want to talk you out of your dangerous-seeming
longterm plan.
-=-So here I am. Wondering if this temporary subdued version that
usually lasts
for two days is a good opportunity to also establish some ground rules
on
her treatment of my son (playful hitting, forcibly turning his head away
from certain things, taking his toys away, etc) or if it would be like
hitting her when she's low.....-=-
I'd wait a day or two. Maybe your husband could be there when you ask
his mother not to be so physical with your son, nott o take things
away from him or turn his head. But I recommend you go a little at a
time and not a big threatening ultimatum that you might all regret.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
I find it difficult ensure my dignity about being criticized and often
talked about sarcastically in front of relatives and friends, (which really
hurts my parents when they are present, though I have explained that that is
how she is and it is not our shame to feel). It gets difficult to LIVE when
you can't enter the kitchen in your own home, can't eat the food when you
wish (no non-veg, eggs, onions, garlic, brinjals, and quite a few other
things), will not get served breakfast without nagging if you don't have a
bath, are randomly ordered to do religious stuff because its some day or the
other (her sons are agnostic, I'm atheist) to get the "prasad - ritual meal
(which to us is plain lunch), are called an incompetent mother to all
visitors because you don't put traditional child jewelery on your son, make
a fuss about other milk being given, pay him "too much attention", and micro
managed in general. Talk of one woman cult...... It sometimes becomes an
endless activity to keep stating boundaries and let things go. Like
yesterday.
It is not my respect that she wants - she has that by default when things
are normal, and reciprocates. It is the respect of her husband and sons.
These episodes of bizarre behavior keep getting more and more extreme - I
see it as attention seeking too. Somewhere, for her, even insult is better
than indifference. They want her acceptance of them how they are. As long as
these conditions are not fulfilled, she micromanages to get attention and
power over everyone, they shun her or retaliate in cruel ways. I am
collateral damage.
Mostly, I can keep that fact in mind. That I am collateral damage, and not
the reason and am able to stop getting sucked in that game when it happens.
Other times, it gets difficult not to react to her.
I didn't bother to think of the impact of my words on her at that time.
However, that doesn't change the result. At the same time, if her not being
hurt depends on being obeyed without question, with no realistic allowance
for actual capacity or willingness, its difficult to see how I can avoid
hurting her, even if I am aware. Suggestions really welcome on this front. I
am also staying with what you said about waiting for a day or two. Perhaps I
can see if DH will support or at least be present.
Vidyut
talked about sarcastically in front of relatives and friends, (which really
hurts my parents when they are present, though I have explained that that is
how she is and it is not our shame to feel). It gets difficult to LIVE when
you can't enter the kitchen in your own home, can't eat the food when you
wish (no non-veg, eggs, onions, garlic, brinjals, and quite a few other
things), will not get served breakfast without nagging if you don't have a
bath, are randomly ordered to do religious stuff because its some day or the
other (her sons are agnostic, I'm atheist) to get the "prasad - ritual meal
(which to us is plain lunch), are called an incompetent mother to all
visitors because you don't put traditional child jewelery on your son, make
a fuss about other milk being given, pay him "too much attention", and micro
managed in general. Talk of one woman cult...... It sometimes becomes an
endless activity to keep stating boundaries and let things go. Like
yesterday.
It is not my respect that she wants - she has that by default when things
are normal, and reciprocates. It is the respect of her husband and sons.
These episodes of bizarre behavior keep getting more and more extreme - I
see it as attention seeking too. Somewhere, for her, even insult is better
than indifference. They want her acceptance of them how they are. As long as
these conditions are not fulfilled, she micromanages to get attention and
power over everyone, they shun her or retaliate in cruel ways. I am
collateral damage.
Mostly, I can keep that fact in mind. That I am collateral damage, and not
the reason and am able to stop getting sucked in that game when it happens.
Other times, it gets difficult not to react to her.
I didn't bother to think of the impact of my words on her at that time.
However, that doesn't change the result. At the same time, if her not being
hurt depends on being obeyed without question, with no realistic allowance
for actual capacity or willingness, its difficult to see how I can avoid
hurting her, even if I am aware. Suggestions really welcome on this front. I
am also staying with what you said about waiting for a day or two. Perhaps I
can see if DH will support or at least be present.
Vidyut
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-I know I hurt her, but I think its better than us both going
> through the
> continuing pain of expectations, dashed expectations, hurtful behaviour,
> incompatible religious beliefs, etc.-=-
>
> That's a big deal, though, to be hurtful and know it.
> Can your husband mediate this and can you figure out ways to gently
> arrange for some time to figure out how to live in parallel?
>
> I know expectations in India are very foreign to people outside of
> there, but the reality is that you'll be re-deciding as the days and
> weeks go on whether you want to keep unschooling or not. And you
> can't say for absolute sure that you will never change your mind.
>
> It might be that the best way to handle this would be to say "For now,
> we're doing this; if it stops working we'll try something else."
>
> With that stance, it will be easier for you to be kind to others, and
> harder for them to want to talk you out of your dangerous-seeming
> longterm plan.
>
> -=-So here I am. Wondering if this temporary subdued version that
> usually lasts
> for two days is a good opportunity to also establish some ground rules
> on
> her treatment of my son (playful hitting, forcibly turning his head away
> from certain things, taking his toys away, etc) or if it would be like
> hitting her when she's low.....-=-
>
> I'd wait a day or two. Maybe your husband could be there when you ask
> his mother not to be so physical with your son, nott o take things
> away from him or turn his head. But I recommend you go a little at a
> time and not a big threatening ultimatum that you might all regret.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
The first two paras didn't get posted at all from my email. Strange.
I had appreciated your response and shared that I had not intended to hurt
her in that time. I had only tried to end the fruitless discussion and take
back my son, whom she was hanging on to, to prevent my exit. Her rant on my
sinful attitude and disrespect of God - where's the surprise? I'm atheist,
and even if there was God, I don't think he'd need me to bribe him to look
after my well being at the cost of hurting people around me.
I had appreciated your response and shared that I had not intended to hurt
her in that time. I had only tried to end the fruitless discussion and take
back my son, whom she was hanging on to, to prevent my exit. Her rant on my
sinful attitude and disrespect of God - where's the surprise? I'm atheist,
and even if there was God, I don't think he'd need me to bribe him to look
after my well being at the cost of hurting people around me.
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:
> I find it difficult ensure my dignity about being criticized and often
> talked about sarcastically in front of relatives and friends, (which really
> hurts my parents when they are present, though I have explained that that is
> how she is and it is not our shame to feel). It gets difficult to LIVE when
> you can't enter the kitchen in your own home, can't eat the food when you
> wish (no non-veg, eggs, onions, garlic, brinjals, and quite a few other
> things), will not get served breakfast without nagging if you don't have a
> bath, are randomly ordered to do religious stuff because its some day or the
> other (her sons are agnostic, I'm atheist) to get the "prasad - ritual meal
> (which to us is plain lunch), are called an incompetent mother to all
> visitors because you don't put traditional child jewelery on your son, make
> a fuss about other milk being given, pay him "too much attention", and micro
> managed in general. Talk of one woman cult...... It sometimes becomes an
> endless activity to keep stating boundaries and let things go. Like
> yesterday.
>
> It is not my respect that she wants - she has that by default when things
> are normal, and reciprocates. It is the respect of her husband and sons.
> These episodes of bizarre behavior keep getting more and more extreme - I
> see it as attention seeking too. Somewhere, for her, even insult is better
> than indifference. They want her acceptance of them how they are. As long as
> these conditions are not fulfilled, she micromanages to get attention and
> power over everyone, they shun her or retaliate in cruel ways. I am
> collateral damage.
>
> Mostly, I can keep that fact in mind. That I am collateral damage, and not
> the reason and am able to stop getting sucked in that game when it happens.
> Other times, it gets difficult not to react to her.
>
> I didn't bother to think of the impact of my words on her at that time.
> However, that doesn't change the result. At the same time, if her not being
> hurt depends on being obeyed without question, with no realistic allowance
> for actual capacity or willingness, its difficult to see how I can avoid
> hurting her, even if I am aware. Suggestions really welcome on this front. I
> am also staying with what you said about waiting for a day or two. Perhaps I
> can see if DH will support or at least be present.
>
> Vidyut
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> -=-I know I hurt her, but I think its better than us both going
>> through the
>> continuing pain of expectations, dashed expectations, hurtful behaviour,
>> incompatible religious beliefs, etc.-=-
>>
>> That's a big deal, though, to be hurtful and know it.
>> Can your husband mediate this and can you figure out ways to gently
>> arrange for some time to figure out how to live in parallel?
>>
>> I know expectations in India are very foreign to people outside of
>> there, but the reality is that you'll be re-deciding as the days and
>> weeks go on whether you want to keep unschooling or not. And you
>> can't say for absolute sure that you will never change your mind.
>>
>> It might be that the best way to handle this would be to say "For now,
>> we're doing this; if it stops working we'll try something else."
>>
>> With that stance, it will be easier for you to be kind to others, and
>> harder for them to want to talk you out of your dangerous-seeming
>> longterm plan.
>>
>> -=-So here I am. Wondering if this temporary subdued version that
>> usually lasts
>> for two days is a good opportunity to also establish some ground rules
>> on
>> her treatment of my son (playful hitting, forcibly turning his head away
>> from certain things, taking his toys away, etc) or if it would be like
>> hitting her when she's low.....-=-
>>
>> I'd wait a day or two. Maybe your husband could be there when you ask
>> his mother not to be so physical with your son, nott o take things
>> away from him or turn his head. But I recommend you go a little at a
>> time and not a big threatening ultimatum that you might all regret.
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Talk of one woman cult...... It sometimes becomes an
endless activity to keep stating boundaries and let things go. Like
yesterday.***
Are there some religious rituals you'd be willing to participate in for the sake of peace? It doesn't mean you need to believe in them. When I visit my parents, I always participate in church and family prayers and sing-a-longs. I do it because I love my parents and it's a way to a peaceful relationship with them and it does no harm to me to do it for their sake.
If you can go along with some of the practices, even if you don't believe in it, it might help your m-i-l to relax enough where you could discuss the other more important things such as forcefulness towards your son, or how one gets to eat in their own home. Like you said, it's not your respect she wants, it's the respect of her husband and sons.... She won't get that until she can relax and play nice and maybe apologize.
I got along really well with John's, my hubby, step-grandma. There wasn't a history with us and I could take her from the moment I met her and accept who she was at that point. The rest of the family had a long and ugly history with her and didn't care for her much. As she got older, she softened and tried very hard to make up for her cruelty, with little affect. I was one of the few people in which she was able to practice her niceness on and it helped her a lot, I think.
People can soften with age. People are softer when treated softer. Although some people really aren't in places where they can change and your m-i-l might not be there yet. Since we can't change others, the only thing we can change is how we interact with them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
endless activity to keep stating boundaries and let things go. Like
yesterday.***
Are there some religious rituals you'd be willing to participate in for the sake of peace? It doesn't mean you need to believe in them. When I visit my parents, I always participate in church and family prayers and sing-a-longs. I do it because I love my parents and it's a way to a peaceful relationship with them and it does no harm to me to do it for their sake.
If you can go along with some of the practices, even if you don't believe in it, it might help your m-i-l to relax enough where you could discuss the other more important things such as forcefulness towards your son, or how one gets to eat in their own home. Like you said, it's not your respect she wants, it's the respect of her husband and sons.... She won't get that until she can relax and play nice and maybe apologize.
I got along really well with John's, my hubby, step-grandma. There wasn't a history with us and I could take her from the moment I met her and accept who she was at that point. The rest of the family had a long and ugly history with her and didn't care for her much. As she got older, she softened and tried very hard to make up for her cruelty, with little affect. I was one of the few people in which she was able to practice her niceness on and it helped her a lot, I think.
People can soften with age. People are softer when treated softer. Although some people really aren't in places where they can change and your m-i-l might not be there yet. Since we can't change others, the only thing we can change is how we interact with them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
Thank you Jenny, I do participate in a lot of rituals simply because she
wants it. However, it is not a case of appreciating what I do. Its about
every time I don't - less than perfect. Offensive by not being fully
worshipping. Basically, my status as atheist makes my existence offensive
lol. This is a dead end.
I do get value from your post though. I see the importance of staying
connected and appreciative of her (much as I want to run for the hills at
times) for our collective well being as well. She does listen to suggestions
from me at times. I will try to be more alive to such possibilities and see
how I can be more soft about how I put them. I try, but I'm not certain I
achieve it many times. This is a good reminder to "stay with the program" so
to say.
Your sharing about your experience also brings home the impact that while I
am collateral damage, I also am a bridge between two sides. I may not want
that role, but it is. If I can't change it, how can I be alive to it so that
I use it not just to make my life livable, but to invite opportunities for
finding joy for my family as well?
Hmm... tough one, but certainly worth taking on. Thank you for this insight.
Vidyut
wants it. However, it is not a case of appreciating what I do. Its about
every time I don't - less than perfect. Offensive by not being fully
worshipping. Basically, my status as atheist makes my existence offensive
lol. This is a dead end.
I do get value from your post though. I see the importance of staying
connected and appreciative of her (much as I want to run for the hills at
times) for our collective well being as well. She does listen to suggestions
from me at times. I will try to be more alive to such possibilities and see
how I can be more soft about how I put them. I try, but I'm not certain I
achieve it many times. This is a good reminder to "stay with the program" so
to say.
Your sharing about your experience also brings home the impact that while I
am collateral damage, I also am a bridge between two sides. I may not want
that role, but it is. If I can't change it, how can I be alive to it so that
I use it not just to make my life livable, but to invite opportunities for
finding joy for my family as well?
Hmm... tough one, but certainly worth taking on. Thank you for this insight.
Vidyut
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 1:37 AM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
>
> ***Talk of one woman cult...... It sometimes becomes an
>
> endless activity to keep stating boundaries and let things go. Like
> yesterday.***
>
> Are there some religious rituals you'd be willing to participate in for the
> sake of peace? It doesn't mean you need to believe in them. When I visit my
> parents, I always participate in church and family prayers and sing-a-longs.
> I do it because I love my parents and it's a way to a peaceful relationship
> with them and it does no harm to me to do it for their sake.
>
> If you can go along with some of the practices, even if you don't believe
> in it, it might help your m-i-l to relax enough where you could discuss the
> other more important things such as forcefulness towards your son, or how
> one gets to eat in their own home. Like you said, it's not your respect she
> wants, it's the respect of her husband and sons.... She won't get that until
> she can relax and play nice and maybe apologize.
>
> I got along really well with John's, my hubby, step-grandma. There wasn't a
> history with us and I could take her from the moment I met her and accept
> who she was at that point. The rest of the family had a long and ugly
> history with her and didn't care for her much. As she got older, she
> softened and tried very hard to make up for her cruelty, with little affect.
> I was one of the few people in which she was able to practice her niceness
> on and it helped her a lot, I think.
>
> People can soften with age. People are softer when treated softer. Although
> some people really aren't in places where they can change and your m-i-l
> might not be there yet. Since we can't change others, the only thing we can
> change is how we interact with them.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]