Sandra Dodd

So what is the difference between Waldorf and Steiner? One came from
the other, but did other things also come from it?

I asked Holly what she thought about Waldorf schools, or if she knew
what Waldorf was. She asked, "Is that the one with the fairies?"

Yes. And the recorders.

I talked to her about dolls without faces, and whether she thought a
doll with a face limited imaginative play. She said not at all, that
the kids imagine the face to be other ways, and it's just the adults
who think that's not possible. "It seems obvious to me that whoever
wanted dolls not to have faces didn't have an imagination anymore."

Sometimes Holly is right about these things. Pretty often.

I used to buy things from the Hearthsong catalog, which was
exclusively Waldorfy in the 1980's, and it was great stuff, but my
kids played with colored bees wax and scarves and fairy wands while
watching Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers and Ninja Turtles.

Sandra

Mandy Ray-Jones

A couple of years ago my family visited the local Waldorf school during an
open house... out of curiosity more than anything. It was lovely. I liked
the people. Blah blah blah. But I got the sense that if I had dared to
mention that my kids watch "Spongebob" or that they say "fart face"
occasionally, I'd be shunned.

Move forward a year and I have some friends in Atlanta who applied to have
their son enrolled at a Waldorf school. They aren't big tv watchers but the
dad is a musician. As in he records records. And his music is on cds.
They said that the students at that particular school weren't "allowed" to
have cds and couldn't listen to recorded music and that having such
electronic devices would automatically disqualify them. (Of course this is
second hand information) but doesn't this sound more like a cult than a
school?

I recently took my kids to a new "homeschool co op" at a good friend's
house. It was started and run by some "Waldorfians". I SWEAR I felt like I
was in an inquisition. Almost immediately I'm being asked about the way we
learn to read and whether or not we watch tv (to which I responded "We watch
a LOT of tv and we LOVE it!!!") Later in the afternoon I notice that the
moms are all being called "Mama (insert first name") and now when we are
with the friend who hosted I am being called "Mama Mandy" and it bugs me a
little... kinda creepy. That day the "leader" lady also made everyone get
into a peace circle and do something that reminded me of chanting and then a
group hug just bc my son had been upset (I was not involved with deciding if
his being upset needed such a huge production and it really embarassed
him). We high tailed it out of there. I felt GROSS for days and I told my
friend how much it was not a good fit for me. Needless to say I've not
been invited back.

The whole thing is just a little too Stepfordish for my taste. I need to go
take a shower. ;)

-Mandy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hema A. Bharadwaj

sorry, have not the time to read the other posts in response but woudl like
to chime in response to Sandra's post:

I have often seen children in small towns in India playing beautifully with
a tin of marbles, discarded barbies or similar dolls with painted faces,
discarded electronic toys that look like thomas or Disney stuff etc.....
Some definitely non-waldorfy stuff.... But the imagination is unlimited.
Truly an amazing sight to me.

My kids have access to a wealth of toys... but they hold on to every broken
toy and use them for fix-up sessions, patch up doctor play, they will come
up with lovely games with a bit of tape and an old box of disney toys. Zoya
cuts of the hair from Barbies and will then glue the hair onto dolls that
have no real face (some i picked up during my early waldorf influenced
months)

when i first found out that the Waldorfians frown on the color black (they
don't allow black crayons in some schools!), i started to see black <grin>
It was then that i realised that the schools are controlling.... very. So
while i do love picking up stuff like wooden trucks.... i also pick up video
games and such. And my kids find days for both. Today they suggested we
plant something in our wooden toys so they can decompose naturally :-) And
yes they love wax and playing with long scarfs and they will dress up as
fairies and then play on the computer (raghu mostly as a ninja)

hema, surrounded by imaginative play all day long.... even as the toy being
used might be a major character with batteries, internet connections etc ;-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie V

Want to second that my children too are wonderfully creative & imaginative with TV & computers in their lives. What the so called "experts" say concerning television and the way children behave is not at all the same as what I see in my own children and those we're around who also have unlimited access.

My children will turn any toy into whatever they want it to be. Sometimes they incorporate t.v./movie/computer characters into their play and sometimes they don't. Just the other day my two boys (ages 7 & 4 who can watch t.v. or hop on the computer whenever they want) played for 6 hours straight solely with each other and the various toys in our house. They went from building with legos to playing pirates to using their "magic wands" to defeat the bad wizards to getting out our play tent and playing various imaginative games with it. After 6 hours they did hop on the computer and took turns (working it out amongst themselves) playing various games . I brought them their dinner while they were playing on the computer and they each came back into the kitchen separately to get more food for the other one:)

I took my now 7 year old to a Waldorf parent/child class when he was 2 & 3. We both really enjoyed it, but when they tried to solicit us to sign up for the new school they were starting here, it just didn't feel right. I thank my lucky stars that I came across unschooling at about this same time and embraced it (not fully in the beginning, still clinging a little to the waldorf ideas), but gradually and now after almost 4 years I have to say we are full fledged unschoolers and I love our life! I am grateful for this list and for all the seasoned unschoolers who take the time to post about their unschooling experiences with their own children. My children are free and their happy, what more could you ask for? My advice would be to trust & listen to your children over any expert. We are living with our children everyday and know them better than anyone else ever could.

Julie v.
http://lerendzonderschool.blogspot.com/



--- In [email protected], "Hema A. Bharadwaj" <hbonda@...> wrote:
>
> sorry, have not the time to read the other posts in response but woudl like
> to chime in response to Sandra's post:
>
> I have often seen children in small towns in India playing beautifully with
> a tin of marbles, discarded barbies or similar dolls with painted faces,
> discarded electronic toys that look like thomas or Disney stuff etc.....
> Some definitely non-waldorfy stuff.... But the imagination is unlimited.
> Truly an amazing sight to me.
>
> My kids have access to a wealth of toys... but they hold on to every broken
> toy and use them for fix-up sessions, patch up doctor play, they will come
> up with lovely games with a bit of tape and an old box of disney toys. Zoya
> cuts of the hair from Barbies and will then glue the hair onto dolls that
> have no real face (some i picked up during my early waldorf influenced
> months)
>
> when i first found out that the Waldorfians frown on the color black (they
> don't allow black crayons in some schools!), i started to see black <grin>
> It was then that i realised that the schools are controlling.... very. So
> while i do love picking up stuff like wooden trucks.... i also pick up video
> games and such. And my kids find days for both. Today they suggested we
> plant something in our wooden toys so they can decompose naturally :-) And
> yes they love wax and playing with long scarfs and they will dress up as
> fairies and then play on the computer (raghu mostly as a ninja)
>
> hema, surrounded by imaginative play all day long.... even as the toy being
> used might be a major character with batteries, internet connections etc ;-)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I took my now 7 year old to a Waldorf parent/child class when he
was 2 & 3. We both really enjoyed it, but when they tried to solicit
us to sign up for the new school they were starting here...-=-

There it is. It involves money. Some people can make a living being
waldorf teachers. And those who work at the school probably get their
kids' tuition waived. So unless parent have some fear that the school
can guarantee to protect them from, why would parents pay big bucks to
put their kids there? And having the family change entirely (or
commit to let the school tell them how to live 24 hours a day, all
year) the family is further invested in the school. Their losses
become greater if they drop out than just the money. They might lose
spiritual status, magical protection, friends, coolness...

Meanwhile, someone is getting the thrill of not only controlling all
those kids, but all their parents, siblings, the relatives who visit
or might buy gifts for those families. NO RAFFI CDs. No Bert and
Ernie songs. No Wiggles.

A whole big mountain of "no" while assuring them that there are elves
or fairies or something in the imaginary woods around them.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cinira Longuinho

Hi,

I went to the Waldorf school for 1 year with my dd ( 1 1/2 yo to 2 1/2
yo)... in the begining everthing was wonderful... I saw motivation to be
more in contact with nature, I could see older children doing lots of
paitings, music and etc... it was wonderful.

But slowly I started to see something weird here and there.... small
details. Plus, I was already in contact with homeschoolers... and they told
me that it was a cult. I got defensive but slowly I could see that more and
more...

Then I decided to do a research online and I found a group called Waldorf
Critics (http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles.html) in the USA that
really opened my eyes plus several articles.... plus a forum episode...

It seems that the Waldorf education is based on spiritism...It is a
religious school based on spiritism... Rudolph Steiner the founder claimed
he could make contact with spirits... I tell you when I first read it I
could not believe it and thought it was all so crazy but it really seems
that they really believe on that... and I got so mad that they do not say
that clearly.... Rudolph Steiner recommendations were that the school
should not inform parents that the children are getting prepared to be
aware of the spirits because they would not be ready for that... it would be
too much so it should not be said... The waldorf critics provides sources
for everythign they say...

One person that I became friend ( another parent doing research...) on the
Waldorf Critics yahoo group one day sent to me an email saying... that the
last post on the group could not be true... he was saying this waldorf
critcs are crazy.. I cannot believe it ...I cannot believe this is true ...
waldorf critics were saying that Rudolph Steiner ( the founder himself) saw
a student ( a young little girl as far as I recall) and he could feel that
she was connected to the devil..and because of that he strongly recommended
to inform their parents she should not go to the Waldorf school anymore....
I was as stunned and in denial as my friend was ... i could not believe on
that story.

Then this friend said, you know what I will check the source that the
Waldorf critics provided to this story and I am sure the story was not like
that... he did it... he found the book and checked it.... and he told me it
was true... it seems that really happened.

Also, I was in one of this foruns, I saw a post from a mother curious about
waldorf education... positive comments started and then one person wrote
something negative and then another one and then waldorf ppl got really
defensive.... like you cannot say anything bad about the Waldorf
education... then a big battle started and then ppl started to say to the
Waldorf supporters are you going to make the forum delete these posts? and
then all the posts were deleted!!!! The forum did remove it.... I was
wondering why... Then I started to research more and more on the internet I
found out that it seems to have a group of waldorf responsible to take care
of the image of the waldorf education... and they do contact foruns and ask
them to remove it... if they do not , they threaten to sue the forum for
alleging damage to the image of the Waldorf education....

Sandra, if a waldorf supporter sees this they may do the same... LOL

I have READ stories of adults ( from Waldorf critics) that used to go to
Waldorf School and they learnt that butterflies was a fairy reincarnated
backwards... going to a lower level instead of developing.... as a child
she was scared of butterflies ... and this child now as adult says that she
has to think with logic when she sees a butterfly.. and think it is an
insect, not a fairy and she should not be afraid...

I saw in the school small things like... a child is having a tantrum...the
teacher recommendation was to wash the childs hand... at first I thought it
was nothing but then I started to think more and more that the teacher
wanted to clean the child from something...I do not know... just weird.

The other thing was explantion about not doing co sleeping... it seems that
waldorf do not recommend co sleeping because at night is when the fairies (
a "good" fairy) will visit the child and help the child to deal with this
world, fairies will provide comfort to the child.. if the parent is sleeping
with the child the fairies will not come. I read that in a website....
nobody at the school never said that but they are against co sleeping or
breastfeeding longer than 1 year.

Also there was a huge battle on the wikipedia ( english) about Waldorf
education... check the discussion history... waldorf critics against Waldorf
supporters... in the end Waldorf supporters won...

The other thing was when I asked the teacher about Santa Claus, if I should
introduce that to my dd or not.. You know that question, I saw posts like
that this last Xmas... as we talked we end up talking about fairies... at
that time I thought they thought fairies were only to motivate
imagination... fairies, santa for me was all the same, not real...then the
teacher told me I had to understand that Santa is not real while fairies....
she left that part for me to make my own conclusion....

Then I started to see that all the paitings are watercolors... a
homeschooler friend of mine noticed in an open house that they all draw the
same thing... if it is a flower, it is all the same. exactly the same...
where is creativity? where is freedom?

The other crazy stuff that I read and then I posted in the portuguese
version of wikipedia was that Waldorf education believes parents should tell
the teacher all things that are happening on the child life so they can
understand them better... like someone passed away in the family, the child
will be playing about that... pretending and etc... I listened to that
example in a Waldorf Conference... the person was saying that this kind of
play was helping the child deal with the matter... free play allow children
that... ok, I could see that.... but then came the creepy part... I read
this article ( this was in portuguese, not from the Waldorf Critics) from a
person that believes in spirits and reincarnation and etc.... that the
waldorf education was wonderful because the teacher could assess the child
past lives and understand why they were behaving in some ways ... the
teacher could understand that the child was digesting issues in past lifes
on this life and that would help the child to develop even more as a
spirit... the portuguse article said that was why it was so important for
the child to have a teacher that would be the teacher for several years...

Please do not get me wrong... I still think it is all crazy... I really
recommend ppl to do their own research and find out... I really will
understand if ppl think it is not true, I was the same way... but now I can
see.. it is a religion... nothing against religion... I just think it should
be clear it is a religion... then ppl will join or not... but using
education like that... it is manipulation...

I have to say one thing though... I have a friend that her partner works
there... and they do have to pay for their children education.. it is not
free for them...

Well... that is it!

C.


On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=-I took my now 7 year old to a Waldorf parent/child class when he
> was 2 & 3. We both really enjoyed it, but when they tried to solicit
> us to sign up for the new school they were starting here...-=-
>
> There it is. It involves money. Some people can make a living being
> waldorf teachers. And those who work at the school probably get their
> kids' tuition waived. So unless parent have some fear that the school
> can guarantee to protect them from, why would parents pay big bucks to
> put their kids there? And having the family change entirely (or
> commit to let the school tell them how to live 24 hours a day, all
> year) the family is further invested in the school. Their losses
> become greater if they drop out than just the money. They might lose
> spiritual status, magical protection, friends, coolness...
>
> Meanwhile, someone is getting the thrill of not only controlling all
> those kids, but all their parents, siblings, the relatives who visit
> or might buy gifts for those families. NO RAFFI CDs. No Bert and
> Ernie songs. No Wiggles.
>
> A whole big mountain of "no" while assuring them that there are elves
> or fairies or something in the imaginary woods around them.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- I found out that it seems to have a group of waldorf responsible
to take care
of the image of the waldorf education... and they do contact foruns
and ask
them to remove it... if they do not , they threaten to sue the forum for
alleging damage to the image of the Waldorf education....

-=-Sandra, if a waldorf supporter sees this they may do the same...
LOL-=-

That would be kind of fun, I think!

I have a friend named Ramona King. She went to teach at a charter
school a few years ago. They were using some particular philosophy by
someone in France or somewhere else. A few months into that first
year of that charter--before Halloween, because I remember she sat in
our front yard next to a fire on Halloween telling us about this--the
faculty voted to switch to Waldorf. A group of parents had requested
it.

Ramona is very black, and very political, and knew that Steiner had
been racist. So she's partway through a contract and she signed to
teach this one style, and midstream, from parental pressure, they're
switching to Waldorf. She was NOT amused, and they had said she
could do it or break her contract. She really needed the money. It
wasn't easy for her. She didn't finish the year, though.

I don't even know if the school "became a Steiner school" or what, I
just know that the wishy-washiness of creating a charter, getting
government funding, and then breaking the contract with the school
district, the other teachers, and all of that was a weasly lame-ass
thing to do. That was not done by a Waldorf school, but no one had
as great a stake as Ramona had in saying "Uh... wait... *Steiner*?
Seriously?"

I went to review what's online easily searchable about it, and there's
quite a bit, but this response is probably pretty reasonable:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070915053316AAELvJt

If the current leaders aren't teaching that racism anymore, the fact
that Steiner believed it doesn't damn the whole rest of his ideas.

But what got me from the very beginning was that he was hired to
create a school for a factory, for the children of workers in some
industry... (looking)... A cigarette company called Waldorf
Astoria. That's why it's still called "Waldorf." And he wasn't the
founder, he was hired as the director of pedagogy (deciding what the
curriculum would be):
http://www.rudolfsteinerweb.com/a/emil_molt.php

"For the first year it was a �company� school, with the teachers being
paid as employees of the Waldorf Astoria Cigarette Company. A year
later, in 1920, the school was made independent, at the insistence of
the teachers. A charitable foundation was established to own and
manage the school, and the Waldorf Astoria Cigarette Company continued
to pay the tuition of the factory worker�s children."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

treesock

> I can
> see.. it is a religion... nothing against religion... I just think it should
> be clear it is a religion... then ppl will join or not... but using
> education like that... it is manipulation...

This reminds me of the (fascinating!) documentary "The God Who Wasn't There." As an overview, the film systematically debunks the idea that Jesus was a real person who was where the Bible said he was at the time he was supposed to be there doing any of the miraculous things he was supposed to be doing. So you know going into it that the filmmaker is going to smash some idols.

But the kicker--the part that was truly uncomfortable to watch--was when he interviewed the principal of the Christian school he attended as a young man. Knowing it's a nondenominational Christian school SHOULD give parents a pretty good idea of what's being taught, right? But the filmmaker starts asking these really pointed questions about EXACTLY what is taught from the Bible, bringing up some of the very unsavory passages; what happens to children who don't profess to believe (are they TOLD they're going to hell?); how does the school go about communicating to parents what they're teaching (he holds up a thin brochure, which seems to be the extent of parent education), etc. And hearing this, you think, even parents who think they want a "Christian" education for their children would never want this concept, or that passage, etc. taught. There was a breakdown, or a turning away, or a lack of trust on the part of the parents.

But there it is. The parents could have asked the same questions that this filmmaker did. Why didn't they?

I'm not saying that the way the Waldorf school or schools set it up isn't manipulation, I just think that anyone can and should do research and ask questions. It's nothing short of their children's childhood that they're handing over.

Teresa

Vidyut Kale

Hadn't heard Waldorf before except briefly when I was looking at
homeschooling resources when I found out I was pregnant. I found a website,
and it seemed not what I wanted. Not all that different from school - just
different format - not the 'freedom freestyle feeling' kind of vague concept
I had. Too many rules - plus unfamiliar ones to boot - I already am bad with
rules I'm familiar with. This would not work. So I left it alone. This
thread is my second encounter with this subject and I am horrified. I'm
looking at my lucky escape at a time when I was eager to absorb all the
homeschooling info I found. Or perhaps these underlying 'energies' (or
should I say spirits?) were what caused my discomfort....?

I'm looking at how unhealthy the teachers must be to practice such thinking,
promote it and hide it on a continuous basis, if the posts above are indeed
true.

Vidyut - the one who escaped.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cinira Longuinho

Hi,

====I'm not saying that the way the Waldorf school or schools set it up
isn't manipulation, I just think that anyone can and should do research and
ask questions. It's nothing short of their children's childhood that they're
handing over.=====

I completely agree... that's why I did my research.... and I know it better
now! :)

A few links... all very long texts

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1213

<http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1213>
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/waldorf.html

<http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/waldorf.html>
http://minerscanary.blogspot.com/2009/03/responding-to-waldorf-supporter.html
(blog)

http://www.openwaldorf.com/ <http://www.openwaldorf.com/media.html>

and more...

C.

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 12:10 AM, treesock <treesock@...> wrote:

>
>
> > I can
> > see.. it is a religion... nothing against religion... I just think it
> should
> > be clear it is a religion... then ppl will join or not... but using
> > education like that... it is manipulation...
>
> This reminds me of the (fascinating!) documentary "The God Who Wasn't
> There." As an overview, the film systematically debunks the idea that Jesus
> was a real person who was where the Bible said he was at the time he was
> supposed to be there doing any of the miraculous things he was supposed to
> be doing. So you know going into it that the filmmaker is going to smash
> some idols.
>
> But the kicker--the part that was truly uncomfortable to watch--was when he
> interviewed the principal of the Christian school he attended as a young
> man. Knowing it's a nondenominational Christian school SHOULD give parents a
> pretty good idea of what's being taught, right? But the filmmaker starts
> asking these really pointed questions about EXACTLY what is taught from the
> Bible, bringing up some of the very unsavory passages; what happens to
> children who don't profess to believe (are they TOLD they're going to
> hell?); how does the school go about communicating to parents what they're
> teaching (he holds up a thin brochure, which seems to be the extent of
> parent education), etc. And hearing this, you think, even parents who think
> they want a "Christian" education for their children would never want this
> concept, or that passage, etc. taught. There was a breakdown, or a turning
> away, or a lack of trust on the part of the parents.
>
> But there it is. The parents could have asked the same questions that this
> filmmaker did. Why didn't they?
>
> I'm not saying that the way the Waldorf school or schools set it up isn't
> manipulation, I just think that anyone can and should do research and ask
> questions. It's nothing short of their children's childhood that they're
> handing over.
>
> Teresa
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

I'm enjoying reading those. It's fascinating like a trainwreck
crawling with gnomes and festooned with cancer-curing mistletoe.

This, about the absence of direct seeing, seemed worth quoting:
-----------------
The effects of Waldorf�s educational program gradually accumulated in
our heads and hearts. After I had been at the school only a few years,
the notion of trying to see the world clearly had lost almost all
meaning for me. Everything seemed symbolic rather than concrete,
although what the symbols stood for was vague. Everything had its
hidden deeps. It�s hard to remember now precisely how I was led to
adopt this attitude. But a booklet written by our headmaster, John
Fentress Gardner, throws light on the world view that Waldorf
encouraged. In the booklet, Mr. Gardner discusses �the art of
education developed in Waldorf Schools.� The booklet included such
statements as:

Is not the contrast between mountain and sea a cause as well as an
image of deep contrasts in the moral experience of mankind? Mountains
define, but by the same act they also divide. They teach integrity,
but may go further to instill antipathy.

The language was more elevated than any that our teachers used with
us, but the message paralleled what we were taught: Nothing is simply
what it is, it is always something more. A mountain isn�t just a mass
of granite, it is a lesson, an image bearing on our moral experience.

-----------------

Not only were people discouraged from seeing the world clearly, but
anyone who thinks he IS seeing clearly will be told he's mistaken,
that the meanings are obscured and require special guides to explain.



I think unschooling is ideal for people who do want to just look right
at people and places and things and make connections of their own, in
their own ways. People who are attached to the idea of hidden
meanings and conspiracies and magic might have a harder time directly
seeing unschooling.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sandracdo

>
> I have a friend named Ramona King. She went to teach at a charter
> school a few years ago. They were using some particular philosophy by
> someone in France or somewhere else. A few months into that first
> year of that charter--before Halloween, because I remember she sat in
> our front yard next to a fire on Halloween telling us about this--the
> faculty voted to switch to Waldorf. A group of parents had requested
> it.
>
> Ramona is very black, and very political, and knew that Steiner had
> been racist. So she's partway through a contract and she signed to
> teach this one style, and midstream, from parental pressure, they're
> switching to Waldorf. She was NOT amused, and they had said she
> could do it or break her contract. She really needed the money. It
> wasn't easy for her. She didn't finish the year, though.
>
> I don't even know if the school "became a Steiner school" or what, I
> just know that the wishy-washiness of creating a charter, getting
> government funding, and then breaking the contract with the school
> district, the other teachers, and all of that was a weasly lame-ass
> thing to do. That was not done by a Waldorf school, but no one had
> as great a stake as Ramona had in saying "Uh... wait... *Steiner*?
> Seriously?"
>
>

Sandra,

Please feel free to pass this to Ramona. I was a board member of that school, was instrumental in hiring Ramona, and was the titular chair of the curriculum committee for the time period you reference. My daughter was in Ramona's class.

On my own behalf and on behalf of my responsibilities for the school, I apologize to her for the really poor way the teachers in general and she in particular were trained and supported. Or I should say not trained and not supported. The only meager defense I can offer is that the curriculum was intended to use, was never written as it had been promised us by the developer. By default we had to find an alternate curriculum source or demand that our teachers make it all up on the spot. Neither was a good option.

I had and continue to have nothing but respect for what Ramona tried to achieve in her classroom under extremely trying circumstances--the lack of teacher training, faculty support, materials was astounding--yet she worked valiantly to engage every single student in that class. My daughter still has the dolly that they each made on first day of class.

It was a weasley lame-ass thing that the school put over on teachers, parents, and students alike. It was our own lack of appropriate preparation as a school board that led directly to the situation where no good options existed. I resigned my seat on the board, refused an offer to become faculty, and pulled my kids also just before Halloween that year. I don't regret my work for the school, but I heartily regret that for all our energy, we didn't create a workable school that even resembled the ideals we each held.

As you pointed out, though, the essence of this situation had only peripherally to do with Waldorf. The deficiencies in planning, preparation, and support and the political infighting that created those deficiencies could have happened regardless of pedagogy. Still, please pass my apologies to Ramona for not working harder to hear and support her concerns when she brought them to me.

Sandra Kee

Sandra Dodd

-=-Please feel free to pass this to Ramona. I was a board member of
that school, was instrumental in hiring Ramona, and was the titular
chair of the curriculum committee for the time period you reference.
My daughter was in Ramona's class.-=-

I'll share it with her next time we hang out.


So did you end up unschooling your girls?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sandracdo

>
> So did you end up unschooling your girls?
>

In the sense of trying to live by principles instead of rules, respecting that my daughters are fully human beings who are capable of choosing their own paths in life right now (rather than later when they grow up), and keeping parental "command decisions" to the minimum of safety and getting along in community--yes, we are unschoolers.

In the sense of being involved with structured educational methods--no.

Both girls by their own choice take two to four days of classes per week at an enrichment center run through the public school district. One is also a competitive swimmer, the other is involved in multiple theater productions. The swimmer is planning to attend our local high school after next year to participate in the pre-biomedical program to further her goal of becoming a pediatrician. Both girls are studying with me for Latin, French, and mathematics since those are things they want to learn.

We are much more structured than most of the unschoolers we know but much too... casual... than is comfortable for all our school-at-home acquaintances, waldorf and otherwise.

S

sandracdo

>
> So did you end up unschooling your girls?
>
>

I just asked Liz (the swimmer of previous post) if she thought we were unschoolers. She said "no, because we watch as much television as we want" So I asked her what she thought an unschooler was. Her reply "people who live in a box" What?!?!

"Everywhere you go is a school because you can't stop learning anywhere. Except maybe if you sit in a plain white room with no windows and even then maybe you'll learn something."

I asked if she was perhaps confusing unschoolers with people who think that learning only happens in schools. "Oh, yeah."

S

Jenny Cyphers

***I think unschooling is ideal for people who do want to just look right 
at people and places and things and make connections of their own, in 
their own ways.  People who are attached to the idea of hidden 
meanings and conspiracies and magic might have a harder time directly 
seeing unschooling.***

This is precisely why the law of attraction stuff being joined onto unschooling, bothers me.  I don't necessarily have an issue with anyone believing in law of attraction, or the premise of like brings like, or positive attentions drawing in more positives to ones life.  It's the weird overlay onto usnchooling and causing it to look more dogmatic than it is that really keeps people seeing directly.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heather

I think waldorf is great for us with how we use it;) I love the fairy, handmade organic things etc. but we also love my little pony etc. So for us, when we are dictated we back off. i take from all backgrounds what fits us etc. Do the same with spirituality etc. if it fits great if not well for someone else lol.
heather

--- In [email protected], Mandy Ray-Jones <shebrakes4rainbows@...> wrote:
>
> A couple of years ago my family visited the local Waldorf school during an
> open house... out of curiosity more than anything. It was lovely. I liked
> the people. Blah blah blah. But I got the sense that if I had dared to
> mention that my kids watch "Spongebob" or that they say "fart face"
> occasionally, I'd be shunned.
>
> Move forward a year and I have some friends in Atlanta who applied to have
> their son enrolled at a Waldorf school. They aren't big tv watchers but the
> dad is a musician. As in he records records. And his music is on cds.
> They said that the students at that particular school weren't "allowed" to
> have cds and couldn't listen to recorded music and that having such
> electronic devices would automatically disqualify them. (Of course this is
> second hand information) but doesn't this sound more like a cult than a
> school?
>
> I recently took my kids to a new "homeschool co op" at a good friend's
> house. It was started and run by some "Waldorfians". I SWEAR I felt like I
> was in an inquisition. Almost immediately I'm being asked about the way we
> learn to read and whether or not we watch tv (to which I responded "We watch
> a LOT of tv and we LOVE it!!!") Later in the afternoon I notice that the
> moms are all being called "Mama (insert first name") and now when we are
> with the friend who hosted I am being called "Mama Mandy" and it bugs me a
> little... kinda creepy. That day the "leader" lady also made everyone get
> into a peace circle and do something that reminded me of chanting and then a
> group hug just bc my son had been upset (I was not involved with deciding if
> his being upset needed such a huge production and it really embarassed
> him). We high tailed it out of there. I felt GROSS for days and I told my
> friend how much it was not a good fit for me. Needless to say I've not
> been invited back.
>
> The whole thing is just a little too Stepfordish for my taste. I need to go
> take a shower. ;)
>
> -Mandy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think waldorf is great for us with how we use it;) I love the
fairy, handmade organic things etc. but we also love my little pony
etc. So for us, when we are dictated we back off. i take from all
backgrounds what fits us etc. Do the same with spirituality etc. if it
fits great if not well for someone else lol.
heather-=-

Be careful with "lol" on this list. We're here to discuss ideas.

It's one thing to "use" waldorf at home.
It's another to sell it.

It's another past that to take government funding as a charter school
and not be honest about the nature of waldorf teacher training and the
intentions.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

meadowgirl11

--- In [email protected], Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:

I'm looking at how unhealthy the teachers must be to practice such thinking,
> promote it and hide it on a continuous basis, if the posts above are indeed
> true.<<

In defence of the teachers and parents, they are all there for different reasons and not all the schools are the same. The school my son went to had a lot of really cool teachers who were into it for the kids and liked the curriculum and the nature aspects, not because they were really into Steiner. And alot of my friends had their kids there for the same reason, it was a small town and there wasn't alot of choices. Just to say that most of the families I met at the school where I used to live weren't hardcore Steiner folks, they were there because it was the best option they could conceive of for their kids.

My son however was not a fan. He actually used to run away and lock himself in the car when he was there for a few months of kindergarten.

Joanna

I'm no big Waldorf defender, but we did have a few years of experience with both a school to start, and then homeschooling at the very beginning with Waldorf "flavor." My kids LOVED the sweetness of the kindegrarten and my son couldn't get enough of the stories and songs. I went to several conferences to further my understand the whole thing, and felt like I came out with a good understanding. All in all, I think that there is definitely a fear of the new and a stagnation to the whole method, based on a guy who died a heck of a long time ago.

It's not a religion, but it does incorporate elements of multiple religions (primarily christian, but different traditions) into spirituality that I found harmless and very open to interpretation. In fact, in "3rd grade" at home, we looked into the Jewish religion and found some really meaningful traditions that we played at practicing for 1/2 a year. (At that point, I was only bringing the fun stuff from the curriculum, and my son wanted to do a lot of that stuff--even some stuff that I thought was really boring.) Not like really practicing the religion, of course, but a fun glimpse in that impressed us all.

In several years we didn't encounter any of the extremism that Cinira talks about, and I have to wonder if some of the fearfulness expressed in the media thread might be coming through in that experience as well. I actually asked one teacher about the religions of the others, and she said that they were mixed--at this school there was Christian, Pagan and Jewish teachers.

There are certainly things about Waldorf that need questioning, but no one is being brainwashed into a cult more than any other "method"--maybe just led down a path to health and harmony that doesn't harmonize in modern times!

Before meeting unschooling teens, the Waldorf teens I had contact with were the nicest teens I'd ever met, which is largely what interested me--the results. And they were pretty friendly and seemed to be independent thinkers, which I don't know if I would have seen had they been raised in as scary a place as the post below suggests. I definitely had some of the Stepford family experience, since we ate meat AND dairy (gasp!), and I was kind of glad that the kindergarten got new carpet rather than highly concerned about "off gassing."

I think an important thing to being a successful unschooler (and a successful life liver) is the ability to take what works let go of the rest. Same applies to Waldorf.

Joanna

--- In [email protected], Cinira Longuinho <ciniravlonguinho@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I went to the Waldorf school for 1 year with my dd ( 1 1/2 yo to 2 1/2
> yo)... in the begining everthing was wonderful... I saw motivation to be
> more in contact with nature, I could see older children doing lots of
> paitings, music and etc... it was wonderful.
>
> But slowly I started to see something weird here and there.... small
> details. Plus, I was already in contact with homeschoolers... and they told
> me that it was a cult. I got defensive but slowly I could see that more and
> more...
>
> Then I decided to do a research online and I found a group called Waldorf
> Critics (http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles.html) in the USA that
> really opened my eyes plus several articles.... plus a forum episode...
>
> It seems that the Waldorf education is based on spiritism...It is a
> religious school based on spiritism... Rudolph Steiner the founder claimed
> he could make contact with spirits... I tell you when I first read it I
> could not believe it and thought it was all so crazy but it really seems
> that they really believe on that... and I got so mad that they do not say
> that clearly.... Rudolph Steiner recommendations were that the school
> should not inform parents that the children are getting prepared to be
> aware of the spirits because they would not be ready for that... it would be
> too much so it should not be said... The waldorf critics provides sources
> for everythign they say...
>
> One person that I became friend ( another parent doing research...) on the
> Waldorf Critics yahoo group one day sent to me an email saying... that the
> last post on the group could not be true... he was saying this waldorf
> critcs are crazy.. I cannot believe it ...I cannot believe this is true ...
> waldorf critics were saying that Rudolph Steiner ( the founder himself) saw
> a student ( a young little girl as far as I recall) and he could feel that
> she was connected to the devil..and because of that he strongly recommended
> to inform their parents she should not go to the Waldorf school anymore....
> I was as stunned and in denial as my friend was ... i could not believe on
> that story.
>
> Then this friend said, you know what I will check the source that the
> Waldorf critics provided to this story and I am sure the story was not like
> that... he did it... he found the book and checked it.... and he told me it
> was true... it seems that really happened.
>
> Also, I was in one of this foruns, I saw a post from a mother curious about
> waldorf education... positive comments started and then one person wrote
> something negative and then another one and then waldorf ppl got really
> defensive.... like you cannot say anything bad about the Waldorf
> education... then a big battle started and then ppl started to say to the
> Waldorf supporters are you going to make the forum delete these posts? and
> then all the posts were deleted!!!! The forum did remove it.... I was
> wondering why... Then I started to research more and more on the internet I
> found out that it seems to have a group of waldorf responsible to take care
> of the image of the waldorf education... and they do contact foruns and ask
> them to remove it... if they do not , they threaten to sue the forum for
> alleging damage to the image of the Waldorf education....
>
> Sandra, if a waldorf supporter sees this they may do the same... LOL
>
> I have READ stories of adults ( from Waldorf critics) that used to go to
> Waldorf School and they learnt that butterflies was a fairy reincarnated
> backwards... going to a lower level instead of developing.... as a child
> she was scared of butterflies ... and this child now as adult says that she
> has to think with logic when she sees a butterfly.. and think it is an
> insect, not a fairy and she should not be afraid...
>
> I saw in the school small things like... a child is having a tantrum...the
> teacher recommendation was to wash the childs hand... at first I thought it
> was nothing but then I started to think more and more that the teacher
> wanted to clean the child from something...I do not know... just weird.
>
> The other thing was explantion about not doing co sleeping... it seems that
> waldorf do not recommend co sleeping because at night is when the fairies (
> a "good" fairy) will visit the child and help the child to deal with this
> world, fairies will provide comfort to the child.. if the parent is sleeping
> with the child the fairies will not come. I read that in a website....
> nobody at the school never said that but they are against co sleeping or
> breastfeeding longer than 1 year.
>
> Also there was a huge battle on the wikipedia ( english) about Waldorf
> education... check the discussion history... waldorf critics against Waldorf
> supporters... in the end Waldorf supporters won...
>
> The other thing was when I asked the teacher about Santa Claus, if I should
> introduce that to my dd or not.. You know that question, I saw posts like
> that this last Xmas... as we talked we end up talking about fairies... at
> that time I thought they thought fairies were only to motivate
> imagination... fairies, santa for me was all the same, not real...then the
> teacher told me I had to understand that Santa is not real while fairies....
> she left that part for me to make my own conclusion....
>
> Then I started to see that all the paitings are watercolors... a
> homeschooler friend of mine noticed in an open house that they all draw the
> same thing... if it is a flower, it is all the same. exactly the same...
> where is creativity? where is freedom?
>
> The other crazy stuff that I read and then I posted in the portuguese
> version of wikipedia was that Waldorf education believes parents should tell
> the teacher all things that are happening on the child life so they can
> understand them better... like someone passed away in the family, the child
> will be playing about that... pretending and etc... I listened to that
> example in a Waldorf Conference... the person was saying that this kind of
> play was helping the child deal with the matter... free play allow children
> that... ok, I could see that.... but then came the creepy part... I read
> this article ( this was in portuguese, not from the Waldorf Critics) from a
> person that believes in spirits and reincarnation and etc.... that the
> waldorf education was wonderful because the teacher could assess the child
> past lives and understand why they were behaving in some ways ... the
> teacher could understand that the child was digesting issues in past lifes
> on this life and that would help the child to develop even more as a
> spirit... the portuguse article said that was why it was so important for
> the child to have a teacher that would be the teacher for several years...
>
> Please do not get me wrong... I still think it is all crazy... I really
> recommend ppl to do their own research and find out... I really will
> understand if ppl think it is not true, I was the same way... but now I can
> see.. it is a religion... nothing against religion... I just think it should
> be clear it is a religion... then ppl will join or not... but using
> education like that... it is manipulation...
>
> I have to say one thing though... I have a friend that her partner works
> there... and they do have to pay for their children education.. it is not
> free for them...
>
> Well... that is it!
>
> C.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > -=-I took my now 7 year old to a Waldorf parent/child class when he
> > was 2 & 3. We both really enjoyed it, but when they tried to solicit
> > us to sign up for the new school they were starting here...-=-
> >
> > There it is. It involves money. Some people can make a living being
> > waldorf teachers. And those who work at the school probably get their
> > kids' tuition waived. So unless parent have some fear that the school
> > can guarantee to protect them from, why would parents pay big bucks to
> > put their kids there? And having the family change entirely (or
> > commit to let the school tell them how to live 24 hours a day, all
> > year) the family is further invested in the school. Their losses
> > become greater if they drop out than just the money. They might lose
> > spiritual status, magical protection, friends, coolness...
> >
> > Meanwhile, someone is getting the thrill of not only controlling all
> > those kids, but all their parents, siblings, the relatives who visit
> > or might buy gifts for those families. NO RAFFI CDs. No Bert and
> > Ernie songs. No Wiggles.
> >
> > A whole big mountain of "no" while assuring them that there are elves
> > or fairies or something in the imaginary woods around them.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

treesock

--- In [email protected], Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
>It's the weird overlay [between law of attraction and] usnchooling and causing it to look more dogmatic than it is that really keeps people seeing directly.
>

Jenny, would you be willing to talk more about this? I was confused by the overlap for a couple of months last summer and fall, and only recently was able to fully "get" that some loa folks unschool, some unschoolers practice loa, and some do one or the other but not both.

(And if this has been discussed before, my apologies. I forgot to do a search before posting, but will go look presently!)

Thanks,

Teresa

Cinira Longuinho

====In several years we didn't encounter any of the extremism that Cinira
talks about, and I have to wonder if some of the fearfulness expressed in
the media thread might be coming through in that experience as well. ====

When I wrote on this forum it was my intention to bring arguments for
discussions on issues that in my opinion need a deeper understanding.

It is with sadness that I saw the response being around fearfulness, and not
addressing the content of the references I presented.

On the media thread I felt I got the label of being a "fearful mother". It
is even more sad to read what I quoted above, which seems to minimize the
importance of my comments and references due to this label.

C.

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:53 AM, meadowgirl11 <tamithameadow@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:
>
> I'm looking at how unhealthy the teachers must be to practice such
> thinking,
> > promote it and hide it on a continuous basis, if the posts above are
> indeed
> > true.<<
>
> In defence of the teachers and parents, they are all there for different
> reasons and not all the schools are the same. The school my son went to had
> a lot of really cool teachers who were into it for the kids and liked the
> curriculum and the nature aspects, not because they were really into
> Steiner. And alot of my friends had their kids there for the same reason, it
> was a small town and there wasn't alot of choices. Just to say that most of
> the families I met at the school where I used to live weren't hardcore
> Steiner folks, they were there because it was the best option they could
> conceive of for their kids.
>
> My son however was not a fan. He actually used to run away and lock himself
> in the car when he was there for a few months of kindergarten.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=When I wrote on this forum it was my intention to bring arguments for
discussions on issues that in my opinion need a deeper understanding.

-=-It is with sadness that I saw the response being around
fearfulness, and not
addressing the content of the references I presented.-=-

Did you really expect some part of a thousand people to watch two long
documentaries in order to comment on their content to you?

You can't even go to a counsellor for big bucks and say "Before I come
for a one hour session, I would like for you to watch these
documentaries I've watched, because that's what I would like to discuss.

This forum exists to discuss unschooling. You wanted to discuss
something else. It's pretty easy to create your own yahoo group, and
you could announce it on this list, and then anyone who feels generous
enough to go there, or afraid enough to go there and watch your
documentaries and hold your hand in shared fear could do that.

To come here and suggest that WE need a deeper understanding (when
many of our kids are teens, or grown; when many of us have been
unschooling for a really long time--"a lifetime," in terms of some now-
grown children) of the evils of corporations and advertising, to come
and say we've made you sad... not good.

The links you brought were not about unschooling.
I hope you followed and read the links others offered here, which were
by unschoolers, about unschooling.

-=On the media thread I felt I got the label of being a "fearful
mother".-=-

We're not discussing individuals. We're discussing ideas. If people
wrote about fear and you made a label and stuck it on yourself, that's
not the intention nor the doing of this list.

When people come here and express fear, someone is very likely to say
"That's an expression of fear." That's good!

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cinira Longuinho

Now I got it. This is not a topic you want to discuss in your forum. I
respect that. You could have said in the beginning.

I sent links about Waldorf, and I still don't see the difference on how the
first is more related to unschooling then the impact of TV (and yes, ideas
brought from a documentary) on unschooled children. Apparently it is not up
to me to see this difference, and I respect that you think the second is not
related to unschooling and the first is.

I perceived your comments around fearfulness as a label. I perceived it used
as a label again about the Waldorf links I shared, as the person who posted
does not know me. This made me sad, and I decided to to share this feeling
with this person. I don't understand why you say it is not good. But I guess
it is something that will make an effort to respect too.

C.

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=When I wrote on this forum it was my intention to bring arguments for
>
> discussions on issues that in my opinion need a deeper understanding.
>
> -=-It is with sadness that I saw the response being around
> fearfulness, and not
> addressing the content of the references I presented.-=-
>
> Did you really expect some part of a thousand people to watch two long
> documentaries in order to comment on their content to you?
>
> You can't even go to a counsellor for big bucks and say "Before I come
> for a one hour session, I would like for you to watch these
> documentaries I've watched, because that's what I would like to discuss.
>
> This forum exists to discuss unschooling. You wanted to discuss
> something else. It's pretty easy to create your own yahoo group, and
> you could announce it on this list, and then anyone who feels generous
> enough to go there, or afraid enough to go there and watch your
> documentaries and hold your hand in shared fear could do that.
>
> To come here and suggest that WE need a deeper understanding (when
> many of our kids are teens, or grown; when many of us have been
> unschooling for a really long time--"a lifetime," in terms of some now-
> grown children) of the evils of corporations and advertising, to come
> and say we've made you sad... not good.
>
> The links you brought were not about unschooling.
> I hope you followed and read the links others offered here, which were
> by unschoolers, about unschooling.
>
> -=On the media thread I felt I got the label of being a "fearful
> mother".-=-
>
> We're not discussing individuals. We're discussing ideas. If people
> wrote about fear and you made a label and stuck it on yourself, that's
> not the intention nor the doing of this list.
>
> When people come here and express fear, someone is very likely to say
> "That's an expression of fear." That's good!
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna

O.k., so I followed the first link and started reading an article by someone who claims to have gone through Waldorf education, ending in 1964. There is an account that caused me to feel very apprehensive and actually alarmed with a sense of buildup to the ultimate big, bad, scary experience. Until I got to this statement, which is part of this buildup and intended to add to his/her case:

"In literature classes, we read ordinary novels interspersed with works of supernatural and even theological content: The Odyssey, The Divine Comedy, and Paradise Lost."

Oh, come on! I read those in my high school literature class--in PUBLIC school, no less. They are not some secret mystical texts involved in an ultimate psychic conspiracy. Last I checked, they were considered to be literature with some value.

I think you need to look at the sources you are choosing more carefully, and what their biases are--I noticed quite a few very religious sources. We had a brief stint, long, long ago, (in a galaxy far, far away...) at a Baptist school, because it was the "best" in our area, and they put out regular literature that suggesting that everything and everyone not-Baptist was involved in some kind of cult. It was very eye opening for me to see how fearful extremist people can be. But I wouldn't go looking for those people as sources of information about things not-Baptist.

And I guess I think the same about extremist atheists too--not a huge difference, in my book, as far as a source of information about things not-atheist.

Joanna

--- In [email protected], Cinira Longuinho <ciniravlonguinho@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> ====I'm not saying that the way the Waldorf school or schools set it up
> isn't manipulation, I just think that anyone can and should do research and
> ask questions. It's nothing short of their children's childhood that they're
> handing over.=====
>
> I completely agree... that's why I did my research.... and I know it better
> now! :)
>
> A few links... all very long texts
>
> http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1213
>
> <http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1213>
> http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/waldorf.html
>
> <http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/waldorf.html>
> http://minerscanary.blogspot.com/2009/03/responding-to-waldorf-supporter.html
> (blog)
>
> http://www.openwaldorf.com/ <http://www.openwaldorf.com/media.html>
>
> and more...
>
> C.
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 12:10 AM, treesock <treesock@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > I can
> > > see.. it is a religion... nothing against religion... I just think it
> > should
> > > be clear it is a religion... then ppl will join or not... but using
> > > education like that... it is manipulation...
> >
> > This reminds me of the (fascinating!) documentary "The God Who Wasn't
> > There." As an overview, the film systematically debunks the idea that Jesus
> > was a real person who was where the Bible said he was at the time he was
> > supposed to be there doing any of the miraculous things he was supposed to
> > be doing. So you know going into it that the filmmaker is going to smash
> > some idols.
> >
> > But the kicker--the part that was truly uncomfortable to watch--was when he
> > interviewed the principal of the Christian school he attended as a young
> > man. Knowing it's a nondenominational Christian school SHOULD give parents a
> > pretty good idea of what's being taught, right? But the filmmaker starts
> > asking these really pointed questions about EXACTLY what is taught from the
> > Bible, bringing up some of the very unsavory passages; what happens to
> > children who don't profess to believe (are they TOLD they're going to
> > hell?); how does the school go about communicating to parents what they're
> > teaching (he holds up a thin brochure, which seems to be the extent of
> > parent education), etc. And hearing this, you think, even parents who think
> > they want a "Christian" education for their children would never want this
> > concept, or that passage, etc. taught. There was a breakdown, or a turning
> > away, or a lack of trust on the part of the parents.
> >
> > But there it is. The parents could have asked the same questions that this
> > filmmaker did. Why didn't they?
> >
> > I'm not saying that the way the Waldorf school or schools set it up isn't
> > manipulation, I just think that anyone can and should do research and ask
> > questions. It's nothing short of their children's childhood that they're
> > handing over.
> >
> > Teresa
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Now I got it. This is not a topic you want to discuss in your
forum. I
respect that. You could have said in the beginning.-=-

This is what I said in the beginning:


Description

How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting
does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?

This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling
and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based
on the principles underlying unschooling.

Always Learning will focus on how people learn no matter where in the
world they are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country
or jurisdiction. *

This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not
moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play way.
New members' posts are moderated, and it's good to read several dozen
posts before jumping in.)

If you've never read any John Holt, please do! Here's a bit: John Holt
His thoughts and writing are behind unschooling.

Information on how and why the group is intended to work: Notes on the
AlwaysLearning List

This list description above was new in July, 2008. The older
description and commentary on the change are here: sandradodd.com/
alwayslearning.

"I can honestly say that I've grown more as a person, parent and
unschooler due to the discussions on this list than on any other list
I've been on."This and other feedback can be read here.

It's here, with active links:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/

Sandra Dodd

-=-I sent links about Waldorf, and I still don't see the difference on
how the
first is more related to unschooling then the impact of TV (and yes,
ideas
brought from a documentary) on unschooled children.-=-

OH! You were talking about the impact of TV on unschooled children!?
Not until just now you weren't.

Those documentaries were not at all about unschooled children.

Bringing links of text on Waldorf means people could open them or not,
read them quickly or skim or not at all. Read slowly or not.

Sending links to long videos that can't be sped up, full of propaganda
designed to cause negative feelings is not at all in keeping with this
list.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=O.k., so I followed the first link and started reading an article by
someone who claims to have gone through Waldorf education, ending in
1964. There is an account that caused me to feel very apprehensive and
actually alarmed with a sense of buildup to the ultimate big, bad,
scary experience. Until I got to this statement, which is part of this
buildup and intended to add to his/her case:

-=-"In literature classes, we read ordinary novels interspersed with
works of supernatural and even theological content: The Odyssey, The
Divine Comedy, and Paradise Lost."-=-

I read all that and thought it was interesting. I read the whole
thing, not with a sense of alarming buildup, but as the account of
someone who did, truly really get into the Steiner aspect for a while.

I was Baptist too, and used to go to training union and prayer meeting
and every possible choir practice, and I was going to be a
missionary. On Lottie Moon day I (and Tim and Martha) were invited to
stand up every year so the congregation could see our commitment and
pray for us, and donate more money to missionaries or whatever.

It is possible that my opinion about being Baptist in the 1960's would
carry more weight than that of someone who only kind of occasionally
went to church and didn't even know what training union or GAs were.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***When I wrote on this forum it was my intention to bring arguments for
discussions on issues that in my opinion need a deeper understanding.

It is with sadness that I saw the response being around fearfulness, and not
addressing the content of the references I presented.***

My experience having heard and read many of the arguments presented in the references you brought to the forum, as they aren't new, is that they ARE fear based. Personally, anything that tries to tell me, "bad, and this is why", I'm going to question greatly because that is NOT how I view the world. I see good in the world, not big bad things to fear, even if those things exist. It's not going to be my focus.

Once I started questioning the need for school, I started questioning lots of things. There is a huge amount of fear among school parents that their kids must go to school and do well, or they won't be successful. Without school, how will that happen? People new to unschooling might fear their children will never learn math, because they KNOW from experience, the experience of school, that math must be hard and one must have a teacher to learn all that hard stuff.

It's the same sort of argument that tv critics have. They KNOW that tv must do all these harmful things because there is mass consumerism and surely it's the causal link, but is it?





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Greg Smith

Hi Cinira,
Wow, I have been reading and reading and I can honestly say I'm not very impressed with the "always learning" group.
They seem like a radical bunch of "unschoolers" that subscribe blindly to a teaching method without the consideration that
maybe, just maybe, other people can have a legitimate and valid point of view. It seems that if you challenge them, they
do not respond respectfully or intelligently, but instead start hurling insults like "you are a fear mongering mother".
I do not like Sandra Dodds and her comments and I think she is ignorant.

I agree with you wholeheatedly, that corporations are evil and that they can be unscrupulous in their advertising AND that
this can have negative impacts on our children as they grow. The impact may not be obvious and unless you yourself are
aware of these strategies you may unwittingly make your children pawns in the corporations evil intentions.
I know you know this already but anyone needing further convincing should watch the documentary "Manufacturing Consent"
by Nohm Chomsky. His is a literary scholar and makes a fierce argument against what the "unschoolers" are advocating for.
I believe him over "them".

I also don't completely agree with many of the other threads, ie: high fructose corn syrop, or EMF's not being harmful...

I thought of posting my opinion on the yahoo group but I have come to see that it would be a waste of time.

I am not going to subscribe to this yahoo group anymore. There are far more valuable and more respectful information sites
out there.

check out OPTF on unschooling http://www.ontariohomeschool.org/unschooling.shtml

talk to you soon.
sunni



________________________________
From: CiniraLonguinho <ciniravlonguinho@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 2:43:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re:Waldorf in general


Now I got it. This is not a topic you want to discuss in your forum. I
respect that. You could have said in the beginning.

I sent links about Waldorf, and I still don't see the difference on how the
first is more related to unschooling then the impact of TV (and yes, ideas
brought from a documentary) on unschooled children. Apparently it is not up
to me to see this difference, and I respect that you think the second is not
related to unschooling and the first is.

I perceived your comments around fearfulness as a label. I perceived it used
as a label again about the Waldorf links I shared, as the person who posted
does not know me. This made me sad, and I decided to to share this feeling
with this person. I don't understand why you say it is not good. But I guess
it is something that will make an effort to respect too.

C.

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@sandradodd. com> wrote:

>
>
> -=When I wrote on this forum it was my intention to bring arguments for
>
> discussions on issues that in my opinion need a deeper understanding.
>
> -=-It is with sadness that I saw the response being around
> fearfulness, and not
> addressing the content of the references I presented.-= -
>
> Did you really expect some part of a thousand people to watch two long
> documentaries in order to comment on their content to you?
>
> You can't even go to a counsellor for big bucks and say "Before I come
> for a one hour session, I would like for you to watch these
> documentaries I've watched, because that's what I would like to discuss.
>
> This forum exists to discuss unschooling. You wanted to discuss
> something else. It's pretty easy to create your own yahoo group, and
> you could announce it on this list, and then anyone who feels generous
> enough to go there, or afraid enough to go there and watch your
> documentaries and hold your hand in shared fear could do that.
>
> To come here and suggest that WE need a deeper understanding (when
> many of our kids are teens, or grown; when many of us have been
> unschooling for a really long time--"a lifetime," in terms of some now-
> grown children) of the evils of corporations and advertising, to come
> and say we've made you sad... not good.
>
> The links you brought were not about unschooling.
> I hope you followed and read the links others offered here, which were
> by unschoolers, about unschooling.
>
> -=On the media thread I felt I got the label of being a "fearful
> mother".-=-
>
> We're not discussing individuals. We're discussing ideas. If people
> wrote about fear and you made a label and stuck it on yourself, that's
> not the intention nor the doing of this list.
>
> When people come here and express fear, someone is very likely to say
> "That's an expression of fear." That's good!
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

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