gertrude lee

This is very lengthy but i think it would interest those of you who have emotional or physical abuse as a reality in your lives.












.




I said *** I am very much a follower of the continuum concept and beleive
in my childs ability in self
preservation ***

Sandra said ***Do you mean you want your children to take care of themselves?***
I certainly feel it is my duty to take care of my children by allowing them the opportunity to take care of themseves.  When they signal the need for help i am there (well atleast that is my goal, i fell off track obviously last night).  For example my children are playing rough on the couch again today, both lauging having fun, when my daughter has enough she sends out her distress signals gets off the couch and comes to me.  Now if her distress escalated and my son did not allow her passage of the couch i would get up certainly and hopefully gently approach the situation. By pointing out her distress signals to my son and physically getting in there and make sure her passage off the couch was a rewarding learning experience for all of us. 
 
 Last night i did not allow my children the opportunity to que each others needs, overreacted and allmost entirely ruined everybodies night.  We usually dont watch alot of tv beuase i had ideas that it would ruin his imagination but after reading Allways Learning archives I am reconcidering and do not stifle his curiosity to watch tv.  I think letting go of my pre-conceptions of tv adding a element to my stress as well, but i am glad that my son will choose to help me or play creatively the majority of the time.
 
 
I said *** I wanted to finish up cleaning the kitchen before bed so i could
not hang out with them.***

Sandra said ***You could have had one child in the kitchen with you. If the choice
is taking care of a baby and a three year old or cleaning the kitchen,
maybe the kitchen could wait.***

Sandra also said ***Could you wear the baby? Could your son have helped with the dishes,
or watched videos in the kitchen with you, or sing with you or
something?***
 
 
 I really could have done things alot differently and i do usually have both the kids in the kitchen helping me in some way because they want to be. For such youngsters they can work well together my daughter passes the dishes to my son to put away and such.  We usually have music on and sing and dance inbetween chores.  Last night my son really wanted to watch tv and my daughter really wanted to be on the couch. I probably should of just left the kitchen and sat with them a little bit and then brought them to bed and come back to the kitchen later.  
 
Thank you sandra for your considerate words, i look forward to listening to the sound file.
 
 I said ***I am very much a follower of the continuum concept and beleive in 
my childs ability to in self
 preservation but i got really nervous***

Joyce said 
***I think she'll respect you a lot more if she knows you will keep her
safe from bullies in her own home than that you're the good follower
of someone else's philosophy.***
 
I am not sure if you are familiar with the Continuum concept but how i reacted to my situation last night was not at all in alignment with CC.  And i dont follow a philosophy i simply use pieces of others discoveries when they resonate with me.  Just like the information i collect from this forum.
 
 Are you implying that i am allowing my son to bully her by playing rough.  I am not entirely comfortable with that, I think a bully is someone who derives pleasure and seeks to make others uncomfortable.  I felt like a "bully" last night towards my son as my daughter witnessed minus the the pleasure.  I did not want to make anyone feel uncomfortable and i know my son did not understand what he was doing or what i was trying to say and my frustration led me to post on here.
 
My son has difficulty reading peoples distress signals sometimes because he is used to seeing my husband and i often having stressfull conversations and when he was very little, his father was more physically domineering.  My son is navigating through his experience of what we preach and what we do, we are certainly doing are best to model healthy relations and practice what we preach but sometimes fall into the pitfalls of our own upbringing.
 
Joyce said ***Right now, the two need to not be alone together. That's just your
reality until it isn't any more***
 
Last night they needed not to be alone together, in general i take that decision moment by moment that is my reality.  We have a 1/2 wall inbetween our living room and kitchen so the majority of the time i can see both of them. Their most recent developement finds them venturing to other parts of the house where i cant see them and i somtimes dont have any real reason to be there with them other than just being there.  I think that is fine.  I have noticed my sons conflict resolution skills improve greatly as they spend more time away from me.  I have had times where i go to intervene becuase my daughter is getting a little distressed, she stops, smiles as me, shakes her head, leans out of my lap towards her brother and she goes up to him and continues to cry and babble until she gets what she wants from him, and he does work very hard to figure out what she wants.  As a matter of fact that just happened right now, but my son was yelling
and i being cautious went to offer myelf to her and she refused.  Now they are laughing.
 
 I said ***My husband and i have modelled a very poor relationship for the 
most part, my husband usually ignores me most of the time,while he 
dotes constantly on the children***  
 
 
 
Joyce said*** Have you tried doing nice things for him? Undoubtedly there's a huge history that has led to this but people don't turn away for no
reason. Perhaps a series of hurts you've each done to the other (many
probably without even realizing it) that have built to the point you
feel justified in being hurtful and have eroded the trust.***
 
I do nice things for him everyday, i once asked him what can i do to show him i love him becuase nothing i am trying seems to work, he asked me to give him a kiss and tell him i love him every day.  I do that.  My husband comes from a very physically and mentally abusive family back ground.  When I met him and married him i knew that.  He was very kind and caring and to put in his own words, looked forward discovering himself with me as he healed these things.  When his family moved close to us shortly after we got married, he went to work in his family business started to shut me out and abuse followed.  When things started to get manageable again, we had children, but emotional abuse was alot more infiltrating that i realized.
 
Joyce said ***Unless there's abuse or mental illness, it doesn't matter.***
 
What does that mean ? There is abuse and mental illness.
 
Joyce said *** Wanting him to change won't make him change any more than him wanting you to change will make you change. It just drives a wedge deepeer.***
 
 
If wanting him to have healthy relationships is wanting him to change and guess i do what him to change, but i want him to change back to the person i married and not the little boy that put up with horrific family abuse that had to shut every one out to cope.  I give him alot of space and dont nag him, unless i get attacked, then i try to work out things in the healthiest way possible.
 
Joyce said ***If you want him to reach out -- and you *do* because divorce should
be considered also the end of unschooling (Read here: http://
sandradodd.com/ divorce) (yes, occasionally unschooling can continue
but no one should count on that) -- then you'll need to be the path
builder. Doing one nice thoughtful thing a day for him will help
enormously.***
 
Are you asking me to consider a divorce or putting my children in school ?  The later does not seem like a solution to me. ( putting my kids in with alot of other people that are not even conscious of the abuse dished out, other kids and their teachers).  For me i hope divorce does not mean the end of unschooling.  When i am financially independant i will have to make that decision, until then i am devoted to creating healthy relationships with my family as well as others and i can embrace the reality that i might not be able to continue that journey with my husband. 
 
 
   As far as having my husband reach out, i am not sure if that is what i want, i really want us to have healthy relationships with other people as well as ourselves.  Does wanting him to reach out mean that we should concider divorce ?  I have a couple close relationships, but i certainly feel like i need more.  My huband does not trust other people and has no desire to make new friends (His Words)  We may get divorced, but he will still be a father that loves his children.  
 
Joyce said ***It will help remove one more stress from your life and help you live
the relationship you'd like your kids to have with their future partners***
 
What will help, to put my kids in school, or to get a divorce ? I am all about creating healthy relationships with everyone i encounter.  That is why i am Allways Learning. 
 
Thank you Joyce I look forward to reading the archive file on divorse and unschooling.
 
Thanks for reading this and i hope this dialogue helps some one else as do the posts i read.  Thank you all very much.
 
Trudy

 

 
 
  
 
Joyce said "Have you tried doing nice things for him? Undoubtedly there's a huge 
history that has led to this but people don't turn away for no 
reason. Perhaps a series of hurts you've each done to the other (many 
probably without even realizing it) that have built to the point you 
feel justified in being hurtful and have eroded the trust. Unless 
there's abuse or mental illness, it doesn't matter. Wanting him to 
change won't make him change any more than him wanting you to change 
will make you change. It just drives a wedge deeper between you.

If you want him to reach out -- and you *do* because divorce should 
be considered also the end of unschooling (Read here: http:// 
sandradodd.com/ divorce) (yes, occasionally unschooling can continue 
but no one should count on that) -- then you'll need to be the path 
builder. Doing one nice thoughtful thing a day for him will help 
enormously. Read the archives here:"
 
My husband comes from a very violent upbringing emotionally and physically.  When we got married i knew this.  He was very kind and caring and worked very hard to find ways to rebuild or as he would say discover himself.  Shortly after we were married his family moved close to us, they started a family business and he shut me out and the abuse started.  We spent alot of time working through alot of issues and started to have children when things seemed to be getting better then things got even worse because emotional abuse is alot more subtle then i realized, in his culture women and children are like owning property, he started to treat me more like a person, but his children like property, i showed him healthy ways to treat children and askhim how he thinks he might have felt if he was treated respectfully as a child, he has certainly replaced alot of abusive mechanisms with thoughtfull ones, but the problem is they are my thoughts not his,he
haqs not completely owned, or discovered foer him selkf healthy interactions.  We are positively working through things in the best way possible, i spend alot of time reading about healing relationships from abuse but it is hard to be the therapist as well as a recipient of abuse and some days i cant take it. figure out the best way to comunicate with my husband ( and my children, the childs book as well).  
 




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Sandra Dodd

-=-I certainly feel it is my duty to take care of my children by
allowing them the opportunity to take care of themseves. When they
signal the need for help i am there -=-

They shouldn't need to signal for help.

-=-Are you implying that i am allowing my son to bully her by playing
rough. I am not entirely comfortable with that,-=-

This list doesn't exist to make mothers comfortable. You described
his actions as constant and repeating. You said you tell him to stop
and he doesn't. That, then, is bullying. You SHOULD be
uncomfortable with that.

-= I did not want to make anyone feel uncomfortable and i know my son
did not understand what he was doing or what i was trying to say and
my frustration led me to post on here.-=-

I hope your desire to get feedback led you to post here. People
should post from a desire to see more clearly how unschooling can
help, not post from frustration.

-=-Their most recent developement finds them venturing to other parts
of the house where i cant see them and i somtimes dont have any real
reason to be there with them other than just being there. I think
that is fine. I have noticed my sons conflict resolution skills
improve greatly as they spend more time away from me. -=-

A three or four year old left alone with a toddler has no need for
"conflict resolution skills." She probably can't talk much. They
need to be supervised.

-=-Joyce said ***If you want him to reach out -- and you *do* because
divorce should
be considered also the end of unschooling (Read here: http://
sandradodd.com/ divorce) (yes, occasionally unschooling can continue
but no one should count on that) -- then you'll need to be the path
builder. Doing one nice thoughtful thing a day for him will help
enormously.***

-=-Are you asking me to consider a divorce or putting my children in
school ?-=-

Had you read the link that Joyce provided and that I re-posted, you
wouldn't have asked that question.

-=- For me i hope divorce does not mean the end of unschooling.-=-

It almost always means the end of unschooling. Even if at first
unschooling continues, when the husband re-marries or the exes aren't
getting along so well, unschooling is the first thing to go. I would
like to say I'll never see it happen again, but I've seen it before
and I probably will see it again.

-=-Thank you Joyce I look forward to reading the archive file on
divorse and unschooling.-=-

Please, next time someone offers a link to what has already been
written, read it then, rather than posting more.
The links were offered as assistance for a situation you came and
described. HUNDREDS of people are reading these posts. Try to make
the posts as clear and useful as possible, for the benefit of all
those reading, and out of courtesy to the dozen or two dozen who might
offer their time and knowledge in writing to help you.

Sandra, the list owner




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Joanna

"...and my frustration led me to post on here."-=-
>
>" I hope your desire to get feedback led you to post here. People
> should post from a desire to see more clearly how unschooling can
> help, not post from frustration."
>
I have noticed, over many years of reading this list, that the people that have a huge, emotional situation and post in a "crisis" mode end up getting defensive, and then not being able to use all the information and suggestions nearly as well as people who post in a calmer, more thoughtful frame of mind. It makes sense, because the comments, which are directed to that intense, big, hairy situation sound intense, big and hairy.

You have to remember that people can only comment on what and how you've presented it, and also that we are commenting on a dynamic at its very worst, and most people are probably aware that your family is not always in that state. <g> Imho it's not necessary to go back and then paint the picture of how calm and happy and wonderful everything is when the crisis isn't happening. Everyone's life has ups and downs!

Joanna

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 19, 2010, at 5:13 PM, gertrude lee wrote:

> I certainly feel it is my duty to take care of my children by
> allowing them the opportunity to take care of themseves.

It's good not to be a helicopter parent, hovering over kids, solving
every problem they encounter.

It's good to be nearby to step in before straining tempers lead to
problems kids shouldn't have to take care of themselves.

At what point a parent steps in will be based on a parent's
understanding of her kids. Kids screaming in one family could be
exuberant kids. Kids screaming in another could be a situation that's
gone way beyond the point where a parent should have interceded.

Being attuned to kids and their needs will help parents help them.
Obvious and easier to write than learn! ;-) But what you wrote above
doesn't help someone move to that. It sounds like get out of the
children's way until they call for help. There's lots of stories from
adults whose own parents let the kids solve their own problems and
who were silently bullied into submission by an older sibling. The
parents never knew and the child was too afraid to speak up! I don't
think that's what you're advocating! But the words do encompass that.
It can be tricky to figure out how words will be understood by
others. Feedback is a big help in hearing what our words sound like
to others!

> I said ***I am very much a follower of the continuum concept and
> beleive in
> my childs ability to in self
> preservation but i got really nervous***
> I am not sure if you are familiar with the Continuum concept but
> how i reacted to my situation last night was not at all in
> alignment with CC. And i dont follow a philosophy i simply use
> pieces of others discoveries when they resonate with me.

If your words say one thing but you mean something different, the
responses will be to your words, not to your meaning. If you say
you're "very much a follower of the continuum concept" then why would
it be read differently?

But it *sounds* like you were following the notion that kids should
have the opportunity to take care of themselves which prevented you
from being present and finding something to defuse the situation
before you felt the need to control your son's behavior.

Whether that's accurate or not depends entirely on the words you
send. But even if it's not accurate for your family, as general
advice, it is sound and may have helped someone else.

> Are you implying that i am allowing my son to bully her by playing
> rough.
>


I'm not implying anything. I'm responding to the words written. The
only ability I have to peek into your problem is your words.

Whether you get help for your situation depends on your ability to
describe it for others to understand.

But my words are true in general, nonetheless. Someone may have read
the discussion of the idea picture you painted and felt some
resonance and moved closer to understanding unschooling and being
more present for their own kids.

> We have a 1/2 wall inbetween our living room and kitchen
>

Not everyone does. The principle is to be more present with them.
Generally that means being in the same room. In some houses it will
look like Mom standing on the other side of the half wall as she
listens and feels the dynamics. That's why we say live by principles
rather than rules. A principle is be more present. A rule is always
be in the same room and never be more than 3' from them when they're
together. ;-) That might be how the principle will look in a family
with a child whose emotions go from 0 to 60 in a second! But
principles are much more useful than rules. Understanding why
something is done is more important than what it looks like in a
particular family.

> Their most recent developement finds them venturing to other parts
> of the house where i cant see them and i somtimes dont have any
> real reason to be there with them other than just being there.
>


And as general advice, that's not a good idea for a toddler and a 4
yo. General advice would be to be with them. That *is* a real reason
to be there. If you need something to do, bring laundry to fold or a
book or a craft or something they might jump in on.

> Joyce said ***Unless there's abuse or mental illness, it doesn't
> matter.***
>
> What does that mean ? There is abuse and mental illness.
>
>

And there isn't a way to know that unless someone says so.

Abuse and mental illness makes situations more complex, obviously, so
general advice won't be as helpful.

It sounds like a healthy solution would be to move away from his
family. (Yes, I'm sure you have dozens of reasons why that's not
possible. Nos are *way* easier than yeses. That's why parents use no
so much!)

But regardless of even mental illness and abuse, you can't make him
change. He has to want to change. What you *can* do are change what
you're doing and do things that will help him want to change, things
that will make it easier to change, to clear that pathway. What that
will look like for your family, maybe only you or a family therapist
can figure out. But the principle, the general idea that we can't
change others, only ourselves, is the same nonetheless. It applies to
kids. It applies to spouses. It applies to the mean neighbor.

> Are you asking me to consider a divorce or putting my children in
> school ?
>

I'm not sure how what I wrote could be read like that.

Divorce generally means the end of unschooling. It's unfortunate that
judges (or whoever ends up deciding which parent's idea gets
implemented) don't understand how great unschooling can be, but the
reality is they tend to be conservative. If one parent wants the norm
for their kids and the other wants something out of the norm, the
judge will almost always side with the conservative parent. That
means unschooling is out.

For your desire for unschooling to hold sway, you need documented
evidence that he's not a fit parent. It sounds like that's not true.
(But that's a way way bigger topic than this thread can support!)

> What will help, to put my kids in school, or to get a divorce ?
>

Neither will lead to better relationships and the list is all about
helping parents forge better relationships.

A big part of that will be a good relationship with a spouse. Maybe
someone can't achieve great, but better is better than worse! Because
worse can lead toward divorce and divorce isn't good for
relationships and is very very often the end of unschooling.

Joyce











































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Sandra Dodd

I'm glad you wrote this, Joanna:

-=-I have noticed, over many years of reading this list, that the
people that have a huge, emotional situation and post in a "crisis"
mode end up getting defensive, and then not being able to use all the
information and suggestions nearly as well as people who post in a
calmer, more thoughtful frame of mind. It makes sense, because the
comments, which are directed to that intense, big, hairy situation
sound intense, big and hairy. -=-

Some of the best growth probably comes in those people who post
emotionally, GET emotional, show some more emotion, have it pointed
out to them, and then find the grace or ability to think about what
just happened to them. Few mothers of young children have time or
money for leisurely therapy. Showing their worst moments and having
people suggest what horrors can come from not getting over worst
moments (and on a smaller level, what unexpected information can come
by e-mail of posting horrors to huge discussions lists) might be a
therapeutic jolt of *hello!*

While it can take a little while to recover from such a shock, the
results can potentially prevent the children from harming other
children because they, in turn, are too poor or busy twenty years out
to afford therapy.

Part of seeing one's harmful impulses laid out is the ability to
decide whether to defend and keep them (now knowing more) or, having
had a big light shone on the problem, to dismantle and replace those
behaviors.

If they fall, they can fall into the pillow of Joyce's site and mine,
and the people on this list who are still willing to help them
untangle and disentangle and help their children.

I know some people's initial jolt here is that posters seem to care
more about their children's feelings than about the posters'. If
there is any magic to unschooling, it's when the parent really cares
more about her children's feelings than her own, the whole world
shifts toward the light.

Sandra

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