New to Unschooling (long)- advice please
JennyB
We began homeschooling in Jan 09 due to severe bullying issues with DS at school. Last year we used a school of distance ed - but found it very demanding and not much fun - we started unschooling/ natural learning in Oct 09. We also have 2 younger children DS13 and DD10 who are also learning at home
The issue we have is with eldest DS 16 - the one who was bullied- he doesn't seem to want to grow up. He has seen a psychologist regrding his suicidal thoughts- which he seems to be over now. The psych said he is probably mildly Aspergers - we have not gone forward with the diagnosis- seeing little advantage in it for him.
He loves to go out with other homeschoolers to movies and to swim in the river etc. When it comes to doing activities that cost money he is not interested in earning the money to do these things (most of his friends have part time jobs.)
He seems to be happiest moving from one electronic device to another - eg he starts playing his PSP before he gets out of bed - he will then move onto computer game- which he plays wearing headphones- to block out the rest of the family? or to be completely immersed in the game. He will then maybe watch a movie on TV. Games he plays like flight simulator don't seem to allow much outside involvement.
He seems to totally reject any sort of conversation about the future. He says to relatives and friends - when asked that he wants to be a pilot. We have tried to explain to him that the training for this career is very expensive and we will only be prepared to pay for half of the cost of the lessons, nd he will need to get some kind of employment to cover the other half.
Dh and I believe that in his true heart he doesn't really want to be a pilot but likes to say that he does in order to garner approval- people say " wow thats a really exciting career...etc"
I guess my question is do we continue to allow him to do his electronic thing every day - or should we intervene and try to encourage some more social behaviour- especially inside the family.
Thanks for your consideration of this issue
Jenny in Australia
The issue we have is with eldest DS 16 - the one who was bullied- he doesn't seem to want to grow up. He has seen a psychologist regrding his suicidal thoughts- which he seems to be over now. The psych said he is probably mildly Aspergers - we have not gone forward with the diagnosis- seeing little advantage in it for him.
He loves to go out with other homeschoolers to movies and to swim in the river etc. When it comes to doing activities that cost money he is not interested in earning the money to do these things (most of his friends have part time jobs.)
He seems to be happiest moving from one electronic device to another - eg he starts playing his PSP before he gets out of bed - he will then move onto computer game- which he plays wearing headphones- to block out the rest of the family? or to be completely immersed in the game. He will then maybe watch a movie on TV. Games he plays like flight simulator don't seem to allow much outside involvement.
He seems to totally reject any sort of conversation about the future. He says to relatives and friends - when asked that he wants to be a pilot. We have tried to explain to him that the training for this career is very expensive and we will only be prepared to pay for half of the cost of the lessons, nd he will need to get some kind of employment to cover the other half.
Dh and I believe that in his true heart he doesn't really want to be a pilot but likes to say that he does in order to garner approval- people say " wow thats a really exciting career...etc"
I guess my question is do we continue to allow him to do his electronic thing every day - or should we intervene and try to encourage some more social behaviour- especially inside the family.
Thanks for your consideration of this issue
Jenny in Australia
Sandra Dodd
-=-He loves to go out with other homeschoolers to movies and to swim
in the river etc. When it comes to doing activities that cost money he
is not interested in earning the money to do these things (most of his
friends have part time jobs.)-=-
Pay for the activities as part of his learning.
Consider it a cost of unschooling.
-=-he will then move onto computer game- which he plays wearing
headphones- to block out the rest of the family? -=-
Your post struck me as saying that you've been nagging him and sending
him to a psychiatrist, and that you don't think much of him, and
you've told him you're not going to support his interests, and that if
he doesn't get a job he doesn't deserve to hang out with friends.
Now he's wearing headphones?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in the river etc. When it comes to doing activities that cost money he
is not interested in earning the money to do these things (most of his
friends have part time jobs.)-=-
Pay for the activities as part of his learning.
Consider it a cost of unschooling.
-=-he will then move onto computer game- which he plays wearing
headphones- to block out the rest of the family? -=-
Your post struck me as saying that you've been nagging him and sending
him to a psychiatrist, and that you don't think much of him, and
you've told him you're not going to support his interests, and that if
he doesn't get a job he doesn't deserve to hang out with friends.
Now he's wearing headphones?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Bayly
Yes probably I have been nagging him - however, school sent him to psychologist who they rang when he said he was going to run in front of truck- we just followed up. It was good for him to speak to the psychologist, as I think he told him alot more than he was prepared to tell us.
We do support his interests, however flying lessons are $375/ hour- at the cheapest school we can find - about 2 hours drive from here.
Jenny
We do support his interests, however flying lessons are $375/ hour- at the cheapest school we can find - about 2 hours drive from here.
Jenny
--- On Mon, 18/1/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] New to Unschooling (long)- advice please
To: [email protected]
Received: Monday, 18 January, 2010, 10:03 PM
-=-He loves to go out with other homeschoolers to movies and to swim
in the river etc. When it comes to doing activities that cost money he
is not interested in earning the money to do these things (most of his
friends have part time jobs.)-=-
Pay for the activities as part of his learning.
Consider it a cost of unschooling.
-=-he will then move onto computer game- which he plays wearing
headphones- to block out the rest of the family? -=-
Your post struck me as saying that you've been nagging him and sending
him to a psychiatrist, and that you don't think much of him, and
you've told him you're not going to support his interests, and that if
he doesn't get a job he doesn't deserve to hang out with friends.
Now he's wearing headphones?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________________________________
See what's on at the movies in your area. Find out now: http://au.movies.yahoo.com/session-times/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
--- In [email protected], "JennyB" <home2help@...> wrote:
In a very real way, you could turn this around and be very grateful that he's not dead. That's fantastic that he's worked his way out of suicidal thoughts!
"The psych said he is probably mildly Aspergers - we have not gone forward with the diagnosis- seeing little advantage in it for him."
The thing that has helped my friend in her son having been diagnosed with Aspergers, before they were unschooling, is that she was able to find much more understanding and compassion for him than she had before the diagnosis. She is more tuned into seeing him as an individual (which is usually not the case with labels, but has worked for her). One of the things she observes about her son is that his timetable seems to be a little different, and she supports him having friends of different ages (usually younger) and doing things differently, because she knows that him at 15 is not going to look like many others at 15. In that way, she's gotten rid of the significance of THAT label (the 15 year-old label).
While I'm not suggesting you get him labeled (I'm really not!), I am suggesting that you could use that information you have to benefit your son. It's not actually a normal and accepted attitude amongst unschoolers that kids necessarily move out of the house and go to college at 18. He may need longer to transition into his adult life, and if you start helping to make his life comfortable and very happy, then you'll have an interesting, engaging and happy housemate for a little longer.
Joanna
>He has seen a psychologist regrding his suicidal thoughts- which he seems to be over now."
> We began homeschooling in Jan 09 due to severe bullying issues with DS at school. Last year we used a school of distance ed - but found it very demanding and not much fun - we started unschooling/ natural learning in Oct 09. We also have 2 younger children DS13 and DD10 who are also learning at home
>
> The issue we have is with eldest DS 16 - the one who was bullied- he doesn't seem to want to grow up.
In a very real way, you could turn this around and be very grateful that he's not dead. That's fantastic that he's worked his way out of suicidal thoughts!
"The psych said he is probably mildly Aspergers - we have not gone forward with the diagnosis- seeing little advantage in it for him."
The thing that has helped my friend in her son having been diagnosed with Aspergers, before they were unschooling, is that she was able to find much more understanding and compassion for him than she had before the diagnosis. She is more tuned into seeing him as an individual (which is usually not the case with labels, but has worked for her). One of the things she observes about her son is that his timetable seems to be a little different, and she supports him having friends of different ages (usually younger) and doing things differently, because she knows that him at 15 is not going to look like many others at 15. In that way, she's gotten rid of the significance of THAT label (the 15 year-old label).
While I'm not suggesting you get him labeled (I'm really not!), I am suggesting that you could use that information you have to benefit your son. It's not actually a normal and accepted attitude amongst unschoolers that kids necessarily move out of the house and go to college at 18. He may need longer to transition into his adult life, and if you start helping to make his life comfortable and very happy, then you'll have an interesting, engaging and happy housemate for a little longer.
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes probably I have been nagging him - however, school sent him to
psychologist who they rang when he said he was going to run in front
of truck- we just followed up.-=-
So there were other factors in his life that day than school and an
imaginary truck.
Now he's home.
If he was home for a broken neck or severe burns, you would provide
for him and give him time to heal. He's home for severe emotional
wounds. To think he should "grow up" right now would be like telling
the broken neck kid to stand up and stop whining about "can't feel my
legs."
There are things that happened to him that weren't good for him. The
best thing that could happen now is lots of good, every day,
generosity, time, no pressure, things to smile about.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
psychologist who they rang when he said he was going to run in front
of truck- we just followed up.-=-
So there were other factors in his life that day than school and an
imaginary truck.
Now he's home.
If he was home for a broken neck or severe burns, you would provide
for him and give him time to heal. He's home for severe emotional
wounds. To think he should "grow up" right now would be like telling
the broken neck kid to stand up and stop whining about "can't feel my
legs."
There are things that happened to him that weren't good for him. The
best thing that could happen now is lots of good, every day,
generosity, time, no pressure, things to smile about.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bernadette Lynn
2010/1/18 Jenny Bayly <home2help@...>
certainly used to be the case that you didn't need a private pilot's license
to join an airline as they train their own pilots. You may be able to find
what qualifications or skills he would need, and find ways for him to
acquire them.
Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Have you looked into entry requirements for training as an airline pilot? It
>
> We do support his interests, however flying lessons are $375/ hour- at the
> cheapest school we can find - about 2 hours drive from here.
>
certainly used to be the case that you didn't need a private pilot's license
to join an airline as they train their own pilots. You may be able to find
what qualifications or skills he would need, and find ways for him to
acquire them.
Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
plane clubs nearby he could watch, maybe? Movies about planes and
pilots? Have you been to the Air and Space Museum in Washington?
Have you been around hot air balloons?
If you brainstorm all the flying-related things he might possibly be
interested in, I bet there's a world of experience and information
between you and $375 an hour flying lessons.
It's easy to find excuses not to support a child's interests.
Unschooling works best when parents really see themselves as the
child's partner, rather than his adversary or manager or gatekeeper.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> We do support his interests, however flying lessons are $375/ hour-at the
> cheapest school we can find - about 2 hours drive from here.Are there magazine subscriptions maybe, or websites? Remote control
>-=-
plane clubs nearby he could watch, maybe? Movies about planes and
pilots? Have you been to the Air and Space Museum in Washington?
Have you been around hot air balloons?
If you brainstorm all the flying-related things he might possibly be
interested in, I bet there's a world of experience and information
between you and $375 an hour flying lessons.
It's easy to find excuses not to support a child's interests.
Unschooling works best when parents really see themselves as the
child's partner, rather than his adversary or manager or gatekeeper.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***He loves to go out with other homeschoolers to movies and to swim in the river etc. When it comes to doing activities that cost money he is not interested in earning the money to do these things (most of his friends have part time jobs.)***
If this is something he loves to do, than perhaps mom and dad should pay his way. If he really was depressed and suicidal and mom and dad were willing to pay for therapy, then I'd imagine this would be waaaaay cheaper and way more in the direction of happiness. Or what is the alternative? He continues onward in his depression and actually kills himself? Bringing happiness making into his life may just be the most wonderful thing his parents can do for him!
***He seems to totally reject any sort of conversation about the future. He says to relatives and friends - when asked that he wants to be a pilot. We have tried to explain to him that the training for this career is very expensive and we will only be prepared to pay for half of the cost of the lessons, nd he will need to get some kind of employment to cover the other half.***
Have you looked into this? He could get a taste of flying without commitment.
http://www.youngeagles.org/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If this is something he loves to do, than perhaps mom and dad should pay his way. If he really was depressed and suicidal and mom and dad were willing to pay for therapy, then I'd imagine this would be waaaaay cheaper and way more in the direction of happiness. Or what is the alternative? He continues onward in his depression and actually kills himself? Bringing happiness making into his life may just be the most wonderful thing his parents can do for him!
***He seems to totally reject any sort of conversation about the future. He says to relatives and friends - when asked that he wants to be a pilot. We have tried to explain to him that the training for this career is very expensive and we will only be prepared to pay for half of the cost of the lessons, nd he will need to get some kind of employment to cover the other half.***
Have you looked into this? He could get a taste of flying without commitment.
http://www.youngeagles.org/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Have you looked into this? He could get a taste of flying without
commitment.
http://www.youngeagles.org/-=-
There are also flight simulation games for PCs and games systems, I
think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
commitment.
http://www.youngeagles.org/-=-
There are also flight simulation games for PCs and games systems, I
think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< > He seems to be happiest moving from one electronic device to
another - eg he starts playing his PSP before he gets out of bed - he will
then move onto computer game- which he plays wearing headphones- to block
out the rest of the family? or to be completely immersed in the game. He
will then maybe watch a movie on TV. Games he plays like flight simulator
don't seem to allow much outside involvement. >>>>
I want to add that immersion in these kinds of activities is very typical of
kids still deschooling from their time in school. Think Snakes and Ladders.
Every time you comment or try to direct his activities away from his choice,
you are sliding down a snake.
You do say that he is playing a flight simulator game. Maybe the idea of
being a pilot is a nice fantasy. I don't think you have to hold him to that
dream. But you can support the idea of it in many less expensive ways that
buying flying lessons when they are beyond your means.
My daughter's plans for her life include designing and manufacturing
collectible and play line dolls in several forms. She intends to have a very
large and complex website (think Webkinz 10G) connected to her doll lines.
She plans on having a doll museum and education center that will eventually
be part of a theme park built around her doll characters and stories. She
intends also to publish novels and has devised a very cool online library
concept as part of her doll site.
We have only just learnt that Otis College has a toy and doll design program
that is interesting to Jayn, but certainly not the only prospective path to
her dreams. One of her heroes is Walt Disney who started as just a guy who
drew a mouse and look what he built.
I support her today, even being in dire financial straights, by visiting toy
and doll stores without the expectation of purchasing, looking at her
drawings and talking over design concepts, sewing with her, helping her find
more online info sources, typing her dictated stories for her, and keeping
track of her ideas in notebooks. I also support her by keeping all the dolls
she has ever been given, and storing them reasonably well. They will all be
in the museum play room one day.
<<<< When it comes to doing activities that cost money he is not interested
in earning the money to do these things >>>>
If he were still in school, would you still be expecting him to earn the
money to go to the movies with his friends on the weekend? Would he have to
earn the money to go on field trips?
I hope you can find a way to support his enthusiasms that don't involve
putting his life on hold. What if there were scholarships? What if he was
able to find a job that paid for him to train as a pilot? What if he decided
to go into the air force or the army air corps? What if he decided to follow
in the footsteps of John Travolta and couple of others and get his pilot
license after making millions as an actor? (I'm being outlandish in order to
encourage out of the box thinking instead of the kind of threatening/warning
attitude I'm sure you don't really intend to be pushing out to him.)
It sounds to me like you are focussing on the difficulties because you don't
want to support a crazy dream.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
another - eg he starts playing his PSP before he gets out of bed - he will
then move onto computer game- which he plays wearing headphones- to block
out the rest of the family? or to be completely immersed in the game. He
will then maybe watch a movie on TV. Games he plays like flight simulator
don't seem to allow much outside involvement. >>>>
I want to add that immersion in these kinds of activities is very typical of
kids still deschooling from their time in school. Think Snakes and Ladders.
Every time you comment or try to direct his activities away from his choice,
you are sliding down a snake.
You do say that he is playing a flight simulator game. Maybe the idea of
being a pilot is a nice fantasy. I don't think you have to hold him to that
dream. But you can support the idea of it in many less expensive ways that
buying flying lessons when they are beyond your means.
My daughter's plans for her life include designing and manufacturing
collectible and play line dolls in several forms. She intends to have a very
large and complex website (think Webkinz 10G) connected to her doll lines.
She plans on having a doll museum and education center that will eventually
be part of a theme park built around her doll characters and stories. She
intends also to publish novels and has devised a very cool online library
concept as part of her doll site.
We have only just learnt that Otis College has a toy and doll design program
that is interesting to Jayn, but certainly not the only prospective path to
her dreams. One of her heroes is Walt Disney who started as just a guy who
drew a mouse and look what he built.
I support her today, even being in dire financial straights, by visiting toy
and doll stores without the expectation of purchasing, looking at her
drawings and talking over design concepts, sewing with her, helping her find
more online info sources, typing her dictated stories for her, and keeping
track of her ideas in notebooks. I also support her by keeping all the dolls
she has ever been given, and storing them reasonably well. They will all be
in the museum play room one day.
<<<< When it comes to doing activities that cost money he is not interested
in earning the money to do these things >>>>
If he were still in school, would you still be expecting him to earn the
money to go to the movies with his friends on the weekend? Would he have to
earn the money to go on field trips?
I hope you can find a way to support his enthusiasms that don't involve
putting his life on hold. What if there were scholarships? What if he was
able to find a job that paid for him to train as a pilot? What if he decided
to go into the air force or the army air corps? What if he decided to follow
in the footsteps of John Travolta and couple of others and get his pilot
license after making millions as an actor? (I'm being outlandish in order to
encourage out of the box thinking instead of the kind of threatening/warning
attitude I'm sure you don't really intend to be pushing out to him.)
It sounds to me like you are focussing on the difficulties because you don't
want to support a crazy dream.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/18/2010 1:13 PM, JennyB wrote:
descriptive terms. Drop the label, not the description of the real him.
Descriptions of real kids - their real personality traits - can be helpful.
have particular friends that share his interest in video and computer
games? Would he maybe be interested in other kinds of games such as
Dungeons and Dragons or Magic, the Gathering, if you could get a group
together to play on a regular basis?
your family doesn't actually have enough income for him to do things he
wants to do or is it because you have the idea that a "normal" 16 year
old ought to be interested in earning his own money? If the latter, it
just isn't true of all or even most 16 year olds. I have observed a LOT
of 16 year old boys, especially, who are simply very young and not ready
or eager to think about making money.
environment. They are fantastically wonderful - for all KINDS of fun and
learning. I sense that you're not convinced of this, that you're worried
that he's doing too much "staring at a screen" (in quotes because so
many people have used that expression). Instead of worrying about it -
learn more about what he is really doing and support it. You're going to
be really thrilled when you realize how much complex thinking is
involved and how much learning is going on.
a sweet and wonderful gift that you can give him. I really DO understand
the worry that happens in the minds of parents of young men - it usually
kicks in when the boy is 17 or so - close to 18 - and doesn't seem to
have any interest in becoming a "responsible adult." But, I've seen it
happen over and over - the parents start worrying a year or two too
early. The kid is sensing that and almost desperately hangs onto his
childhood and that worries the parents even more. It is very very
common. From my observation, it all works out over the next few years -
maybe into the early 20's. If you can afford to give your kid an
extended childhood, that is more time for him to heal from the hurt that
was done to him by bullying.
something related to flying or airplanes? He doesn't have to commit to a
career in it to get a bit involved. Can you afford a few lessons?
Your response seems odd, to me. If my kid expressed an interest in
something like this, what I'd do is try to find a way that we could
afford to support that interest. We wouldn't jump totally into it -
incur some huge expense - we'd go easy, but we'd do something to move in
that direction. Seems like, if I'm understanding correctly, you're not
only not supporting his interest, you're discouraging it. First, you're
saying that it is very expensive and that he'd have to work. Are you
USING this as an excuse to sort of nag him about how he's going to have
to work? Second, you're saying that you don't think he means it. That
MAY or may not be so, but if he's repeatedly saying it, I think you
should take him seriously at his word and offer something to support
that interest.
saying that. And he's playing with some kind of flight simulator. That
is an indication of an interest in that general direction - so follow up
on that and support it. Maybe a tour of an air museum, maybe get some
movies about pilots, maybe take some short flights to somewhere or
another, maybe get him a chance to fly in a small plane --- I don't know
enough to know what's possible, that's YOUR job as an unschooling parent.
Don't just "allow" it - join in and support it and enhance it and help
him revel in what he loves! Get him an online account so he can play
with other people all over the world.
My daughter's boyfriend has a sad story with a happy ending that he
tells people who have your concerns. His parents restricted his video
game playing for years. He resented it a lot. Then, his dad suddenly got
interested in playing video games and they started playing together. It
changed their relationship completely - they became MUCH closer. Then
his mom and sister started playing, too, and he says his whole family
became much much happier and closer and more loving with each other. If
you could hear him tell how much it meant to him for the rest of his
family to get into this thing that HE loved so much, it would bring
tears to your eyes. He is now 23 years old and he and his dad schedule
times to play video games together and it is really really sweet. I
really honestly think, knowing him and his father, that they would have
had a lot of problems with each other over the years if they hadn't had
this really fun thing they did that brought them together.
-pam
> The issue we have is with eldest DS 16 - the one who was bullied- he doesn't seem to want to grow up. He has seen a psychologist regrding his suicidal thoughts- which he seems to be over now. The psych said he is probably mildly Aspergers - we have not gone forward with the diagnosis- seeing little advantage in it for him.Instead of calling it mildly Aspergers, you could put it in more
>
descriptive terms. Drop the label, not the description of the real him.
Descriptions of real kids - their real personality traits - can be helpful.
> He loves to go out with other homeschoolers to movies and to swim in the river etc.So - does he have friends? He enjoys socializing? That's good. Does he
have particular friends that share his interest in video and computer
games? Would he maybe be interested in other kinds of games such as
Dungeons and Dragons or Magic, the Gathering, if you could get a group
together to play on a regular basis?
> When it comes to doing activities that cost money he is not interested in earning the money to do these things (most of his friends have part time jobs.)You seem to have an odd emphasis on him earning money. Is that because
>
your family doesn't actually have enough income for him to do things he
wants to do or is it because you have the idea that a "normal" 16 year
old ought to be interested in earning his own money? If the latter, it
just isn't true of all or even most 16 year olds. I have observed a LOT
of 16 year old boys, especially, who are simply very young and not ready
or eager to think about making money.
> He seems to be happiest moving from one electronic device to another - eg he starts playing his PSP before he gets out of bed - he will then move onto computer game- which he plays wearing headphones- to block out the rest of the family? or to be completely immersed in the game. He will then maybe watch a movie on TV. Games he plays like flight simulator don't seem to allow much outside involvement.This is a generation for whom the electronic devices are their native
>
environment. They are fantastically wonderful - for all KINDS of fun and
learning. I sense that you're not convinced of this, that you're worried
that he's doing too much "staring at a screen" (in quotes because so
many people have used that expression). Instead of worrying about it -
learn more about what he is really doing and support it. You're going to
be really thrilled when you realize how much complex thinking is
involved and how much learning is going on.
> He seems to totally reject any sort of conversation about the future.Let him BE now. Let him live in the present for another few years. It is
a sweet and wonderful gift that you can give him. I really DO understand
the worry that happens in the minds of parents of young men - it usually
kicks in when the boy is 17 or so - close to 18 - and doesn't seem to
have any interest in becoming a "responsible adult." But, I've seen it
happen over and over - the parents start worrying a year or two too
early. The kid is sensing that and almost desperately hangs onto his
childhood and that worries the parents even more. It is very very
common. From my observation, it all works out over the next few years -
maybe into the early 20's. If you can afford to give your kid an
extended childhood, that is more time for him to heal from the hurt that
was done to him by bullying.
> He says to relatives and friends - when asked that he wants to be a pilot. We have tried to explain to him that the training for this career is very expensive and we will only be prepared to pay for half of the cost of the lessons, nd he will need to get some kind of employment to cover the other half.Can't you get him involved now in something like Civil Air Patrol? Or
>
something related to flying or airplanes? He doesn't have to commit to a
career in it to get a bit involved. Can you afford a few lessons?
Your response seems odd, to me. If my kid expressed an interest in
something like this, what I'd do is try to find a way that we could
afford to support that interest. We wouldn't jump totally into it -
incur some huge expense - we'd go easy, but we'd do something to move in
that direction. Seems like, if I'm understanding correctly, you're not
only not supporting his interest, you're discouraging it. First, you're
saying that it is very expensive and that he'd have to work. Are you
USING this as an excuse to sort of nag him about how he's going to have
to work? Second, you're saying that you don't think he means it. That
MAY or may not be so, but if he's repeatedly saying it, I think you
should take him seriously at his word and offer something to support
that interest.
> Dh and I believe that in his true heart he doesn't really want to be a pilot but likes to say that he does in order to garner approval- people say " wow thats a really exciting career...etc"There are zillions of other things he could have said, though, and he's
>
saying that. And he's playing with some kind of flight simulator. That
is an indication of an interest in that general direction - so follow up
on that and support it. Maybe a tour of an air museum, maybe get some
movies about pilots, maybe take some short flights to somewhere or
another, maybe get him a chance to fly in a small plane --- I don't know
enough to know what's possible, that's YOUR job as an unschooling parent.
> I guess my question is do we continue to allow him to do his electronic thing every day - or should we intervene and try to encourage some more social behaviour- especially inside the family."His electronic thing?" He's doing lots of things - it isn't one thing.
>
Don't just "allow" it - join in and support it and enhance it and help
him revel in what he loves! Get him an online account so he can play
with other people all over the world.
My daughter's boyfriend has a sad story with a happy ending that he
tells people who have your concerns. His parents restricted his video
game playing for years. He resented it a lot. Then, his dad suddenly got
interested in playing video games and they started playing together. It
changed their relationship completely - they became MUCH closer. Then
his mom and sister started playing, too, and he says his whole family
became much much happier and closer and more loving with each other. If
you could hear him tell how much it meant to him for the rest of his
family to get into this thing that HE loved so much, it would bring
tears to your eyes. He is now 23 years old and he and his dad schedule
times to play video games together and it is really really sweet. I
really honestly think, knowing him and his father, that they would have
had a lot of problems with each other over the years if they hadn't had
this really fun thing they did that brought them together.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/18/2010 3:51 PM, Jenny Bayly wrote:
has a Discovery Flight that is under $200 and up to three people can
share that cost. They take you out for an hour in a Cessna, give you
some instruction, let you fly the plane for a while.
If you're right, and he's not really that interested, then something
like this might satisfy him. If you're wrong, and he really IS
interested, then this will give him the chance to decide if he's
interested enough to want to work with you in figuring out how to
finance it.
-pam
> We do support his interests, however flying lessons are $375/ hour- at the cheapest school we can find - about 2 hours drive from here.I live near the Long Beach, California, airport. The flight school here
>
>
has a Discovery Flight that is under $200 and up to three people can
share that cost. They take you out for an hour in a Cessna, give you
some instruction, let you fly the plane for a while.
If you're right, and he's not really that interested, then something
like this might satisfy him. If you're wrong, and he really IS
interested, then this will give him the chance to decide if he's
interested enough to want to work with you in figuring out how to
finance it.
-pam
annx33
Hello Jenny B in Austrailia:
"He seems to be happiest moving from one electronic device to another - eg he starts playing his PSP before he gets out of bed - he will then move onto computer game- which he plays wearing headphones- to block out the rest of the family? "
I have two teenage sons that have been unschooling for six years now. They are 16.5 years old. Since moving away from school at home sort of homeschooling and before that public school; they have spent alot of their time on the computer, playing video games, watching movies . . . what I've heard mainstream parents call "screen time". They prefer wearing headphones, tho I've never felt that they were blocking out the family . . . just making a more immersive environment in which to learn. I liken it to a "carol" in a school library . . a place that blocked out all the activity around so that a person could focus more clearly. It might be helpful to think of the headphones as a choice towards what he needs, rather than away from you and the family.
I've been exasperated lately that the boys don't "do" more social activities. My exasperation is my own expectation, tho, based on how I learn, and it really has very little to do with them. Reading your post reminds me that I need to temper my own emotions; and not allow my feelings and expectations to get in the way of providing an environment of trust and support.
"Games he plays like flight simulator don't seem to allow much outside involvement."
So, he is training to be a pilot.
-Ann in Boston
"He seems to be happiest moving from one electronic device to another - eg he starts playing his PSP before he gets out of bed - he will then move onto computer game- which he plays wearing headphones- to block out the rest of the family? "
I have two teenage sons that have been unschooling for six years now. They are 16.5 years old. Since moving away from school at home sort of homeschooling and before that public school; they have spent alot of their time on the computer, playing video games, watching movies . . . what I've heard mainstream parents call "screen time". They prefer wearing headphones, tho I've never felt that they were blocking out the family . . . just making a more immersive environment in which to learn. I liken it to a "carol" in a school library . . a place that blocked out all the activity around so that a person could focus more clearly. It might be helpful to think of the headphones as a choice towards what he needs, rather than away from you and the family.
I've been exasperated lately that the boys don't "do" more social activities. My exasperation is my own expectation, tho, based on how I learn, and it really has very little to do with them. Reading your post reminds me that I need to temper my own emotions; and not allow my feelings and expectations to get in the way of providing an environment of trust and support.
"Games he plays like flight simulator don't seem to allow much outside involvement."
So, he is training to be a pilot.
-Ann in Boston
Sandra Dodd
-=-> I guess my question is do we continue to allow him to do his
electronic thing every day - or should we intervene and try to
encourage some more social behaviour- especially inside the family.
isn't one thing. "
What if you had a teen who wrote and drew and read books? Would you
ask us "Do we continue to allow him to do his paper thing every day...?"
We let our son play video games as much as he wanted to, from the time
he was four or so and got his first Nintendo, til forever. Birthday
gifts and Christmas gifts were games and new systems and controls. He
studied Nintendo Power Magazine, and bought indexes with his own
money, in those days before internet gaming sites.
Now he works for Blizzard, Entertainment. It wasn't precisely and
exactly because of his video game playing; much was that he lived in a
town where they had a customer service contract. But given what he's
now doing as a living (and not a bad living), had we limited him, we
would have been distracting him from preparing for his future. The
"trivia" he knew about games and gaming now is solid knowledge.
Maybe your son will eventually get involved in creating flight
simulation scenarios, or other flight-related things. Let his
interests vary; don't try to pinpoint him or "talk about the future."
Don't expect him to know what he's going to do. Let him frolic and
explore the world.
As things seem to stand now, if he doesn't become a pilot he will have
"failed." You're pressing him to declare a goal. Please don't.
-=-It seems to me the path being recommended is to allow him to
continue as he is- give him money for excursions with friends, maybe
try to find some work experience in a field related to flight and stop
thinking about his age?-=-
If anyone agrees to this or disagrees with it, will you change what
you would do? What's being recommended more than that is to relax,
accept him, be his helper and his partner. His success is your
success. His happiness should be your happiness. Find ways to enable
him to be calm and happy, rather than ways to make him feel small and
wrong.
As to excursions with friends, though, I think you should definitely
provide movie ticket costs and snacks and lunch afterwards and maybe
gas money if other kids are driving. Rather than comparing it to
school field trips or school fees, perhaps consider it ALL that school
would cost. Lunches, clothes, supplies, fees, PE uniforms, whatever
all, and consider that unschooling does and should cost at least that
much.
We found that by being generous with our kids (who are now 18, 21 and
23) that they were eager to help us back, and to be generous with one
another. For Marty's 21st birthday, Kirby was invited to go with him
to Las Vegas, with some other friends Kirby likes lots. Kirby didn't
want to go. He wanted to stay in Albuquerque a few more days, to be
home, and visit more calmly. He gave Marty $200 cash as a birthday
gift. I don't think that's common of 23 year olds and their younger
siblings. I could be wrong.
The way you live, the way you see him, the way you treat him, helps
him have the chance to become whole and strong.
As to maturity, did either you or your husband "mature late"? I
matured early. So did Kirby. Keith didn't. Neither did Marty.
As to men I still know who grew up with me, my schoolmates, some of
those who matured early were stuck in a nearly false bravado. Some of
those who matured late are the finest men now, the most responsible,
the best husbands and the best fathers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
electronic thing every day - or should we intervene and try to
encourage some more social behaviour- especially inside the family.
>Pam wrote: "His electronic thing?" He's doing lots of things - it
isn't one thing. "
What if you had a teen who wrote and drew and read books? Would you
ask us "Do we continue to allow him to do his paper thing every day...?"
We let our son play video games as much as he wanted to, from the time
he was four or so and got his first Nintendo, til forever. Birthday
gifts and Christmas gifts were games and new systems and controls. He
studied Nintendo Power Magazine, and bought indexes with his own
money, in those days before internet gaming sites.
Now he works for Blizzard, Entertainment. It wasn't precisely and
exactly because of his video game playing; much was that he lived in a
town where they had a customer service contract. But given what he's
now doing as a living (and not a bad living), had we limited him, we
would have been distracting him from preparing for his future. The
"trivia" he knew about games and gaming now is solid knowledge.
Maybe your son will eventually get involved in creating flight
simulation scenarios, or other flight-related things. Let his
interests vary; don't try to pinpoint him or "talk about the future."
Don't expect him to know what he's going to do. Let him frolic and
explore the world.
As things seem to stand now, if he doesn't become a pilot he will have
"failed." You're pressing him to declare a goal. Please don't.
-=-It seems to me the path being recommended is to allow him to
continue as he is- give him money for excursions with friends, maybe
try to find some work experience in a field related to flight and stop
thinking about his age?-=-
If anyone agrees to this or disagrees with it, will you change what
you would do? What's being recommended more than that is to relax,
accept him, be his helper and his partner. His success is your
success. His happiness should be your happiness. Find ways to enable
him to be calm and happy, rather than ways to make him feel small and
wrong.
As to excursions with friends, though, I think you should definitely
provide movie ticket costs and snacks and lunch afterwards and maybe
gas money if other kids are driving. Rather than comparing it to
school field trips or school fees, perhaps consider it ALL that school
would cost. Lunches, clothes, supplies, fees, PE uniforms, whatever
all, and consider that unschooling does and should cost at least that
much.
We found that by being generous with our kids (who are now 18, 21 and
23) that they were eager to help us back, and to be generous with one
another. For Marty's 21st birthday, Kirby was invited to go with him
to Las Vegas, with some other friends Kirby likes lots. Kirby didn't
want to go. He wanted to stay in Albuquerque a few more days, to be
home, and visit more calmly. He gave Marty $200 cash as a birthday
gift. I don't think that's common of 23 year olds and their younger
siblings. I could be wrong.
The way you live, the way you see him, the way you treat him, helps
him have the chance to become whole and strong.
As to maturity, did either you or your husband "mature late"? I
matured early. So did Kirby. Keith didn't. Neither did Marty.
As to men I still know who grew up with me, my schoolmates, some of
those who matured early were stuck in a nearly false bravado. Some of
those who matured late are the finest men now, the most responsible,
the best husbands and the best fathers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]