Abbey LaBorde

Hi Everyone,
This is a very hard thing for me to even think about, but I'm considering abandoning the unschooling lifestyle I've been trying to follow.  Here's why.......

I am a mother of 4 daughters-8,7,4,and newborn. My 7 year old has moderate/severe Autism.  I have a husband who's not really involved, hardly any extra money, and severely lacking in the creativity department. My days are consumed by chores, menu planning, cooking, breastfeeding, budgeting, breaking up fights and laundry, laundry, laundry.  Some days I don't even get to sit down unless I'm nursing the baby.  I have been trying to unschool for a year and a half and I really don't feel that it's working out.  My daughters are only interested in playing barbie's, my little pony, watching TV, or playing in the backyard.  While I think that playing is wonderful, I don't really feel that they've learned much and they often complain that they're bored and don't have any friends.  They also dont seem to have any interests that they follow. I try to give them ideas when they ask me but they don't like my suggestions. My 4 year old told me she wants to
go to school and my 7 year old agrees.  It was so hard not to cry when they said that.  I think unschooling is the most wonderful idea in the whole world and I really wanted my kids to think so too.  When I first read about unschooling I had envisioned my children quitely reading a book or doing projects in their room, and then telling me everything they learned or just talking to me about what they're interested in, but it's been nothing like that at all. My mother tells me to send them back to school, but that's the last thing I want to do.  Basically I have a bunch of bored kids who don't do anything except make messes and watch TV.  I would be able to live with that if I thought they were happy....but I don't think they are. 

Is it possible my family is not cut out for this lifestyle?
Or have I failed to do my part some how?
Have I misunderstood how unschooling works?

I'm so broken hearted about this.....Any gentle comments would be so appreciated. 

Thank you so much.....Abbey




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Robyn L. Coburn

Abbey, it sounds like you are in a lot of pain.

<<<<Is it possible my family is not cut out for this lifestyle?>>>>

Possibly, but I would set that idea to the side for now as a concept that
has yet to be proven.

<<<< Or have I failed to do my part some how?>>>>

Possibly, although that doesn't mean you will always fail.

<<<< Have I misunderstood how unschooling works?>>>>

I would say "yes" to this, which is probably why you seem be failing.

You had a rosy vision of unschooling which more reading might have dispelled
sooner. Some children enjoy quiet reading and projects, but the underlying
paragdigm of the vision you have sketched sounds a lot like separation to
me. They are off doing and then come and report to you - that is
fundamentally the same as what happens in a schooling family, just in a
different location.

I want to suggest that you take a few deep breaths. It's tough to make
emotional decisions when you have a newborn with all those hormonal emotions
flowing through you.

If you are breaking up fights consistently then your kids are being left to
their own devices too much. Unschooling means relentless attention to your
kids - which probably sounds appalling to you right now, with all you have
to do.

Yet we all have all those things to do. I have only one child, but there are
families successfully unschooling 5,6,7,8,9, even a couple of 10 kid
families including one or more special needs kids in their mix.

Unschooling doesn't just happen. The parents make it happen.

Unschooling doesn't blossom instantly either. The children and the parents
have to (really one of the few Have To's) deschool from their school
experiences. Chances are your two older girls are still in that process, and
almost certainly you are still in that process from what you have said about
how you are defining learning.

Let's look at what you have said about your daughters:

<<<<My daughters are only interested in playing barbie's, my little pony,
watching TV, or playing in the backyard. While I think that playing is
wonderful, I don't really feel that they've learned much and they often
complain that they're bored and don't have any friends. They also dont seem
to have any interests that they follow.>>>

Let's translate that some:

"My daughters have strong mutual interests in barbies, my little pony, tv
and outdoor play, which is wonderful. I suspect that they would like more of
my attention and interaction, and maybe to get out more an meet other kids."

<<<<I try to give them ideas when they ask me but they don't like my
suggestions.>>>>

I'm going out a limb here with my suspicion that your suggestions are most
likely couched in "go away and do this" type of ideas, rather than games or
interactions in which you would participate and engage with them. I suspect
that you are suggesting schooly looking activities to them, rather than
springboarding from the clearly demonstrated interests that they are already
showing you - but you are dismissing as "not learning".

Your 4yo probably has very different ideas of fun from the older girls. Is
you 8yo being expected to take charge of her? My daughter is a perfect
mirror for my emotional state, including when I am feeling put upon,
frustrated, overwhelmed and hopeless (rare these days). It's a great wake up
call to amend my attitude. Maybe your dd's are offering the same gift to
you.

There is something else lurking under your post also that will always have a
deleterious effect on your unschooling, and that is some fairly damning
criticism of you dh. I'm guessing that you have a traditional division of
labor in your home - perhaps you are feeling alone and abandoned - but
carrying around a resentment of your dh, your partner, will not make the
weight of these other responsibilities lighter. I want to suggest that you
actively work on finding things to appreciate about him - especially when
you feel the least appreciative.

Maybe, working together, you can restructure your budget to get just a
little bit of mother's helper time. Even a home schooling teenager coming
over to play with the kids can be a help - or perhaps someone doing some of
the laundry.

It is easy to become isolated with a newborn. I would encourage you to find
an unschooling or inclusive home schooling park day to get to with your
kids. Arrive early, bring plenty of snacks. You will find a bunch of mostly
women many of whom will have been through trying to juggle the multiple
needs of many kids and a newborn, and you might find just enough to interest
your kids to reinvigorate their lives and feelings. I especially recall
Jayn's enjoyment of park days when she was about 4 and a little younger. Now
she prefers playdates.

<<<Basically I have a bunch of bored kids who don't do anything except make
messes and watch TV. >>>>

If they are choosing tv because of a lack of other options that is a
problem. If they are choosing tv because they enjoy it, that is something
else. Jayn watches a lot of tv, plays a lot of wii and computer games, surfs
the internet. Quite honestly sometimes one of these activities is being
chosen because of the lack of other stuff to do - to help pass some time
while I finish up some work or in the middle of the night. But this is not
the norm - usually Jayn is very happy to watch tv, making concious choices
about her programming. She still likes a certain amount of repetition also.

You will be a lot happier and more compassionate if you can move away from
judging their important learning activities (ie all their play) as "making
messes".

I hope you find a way to do more than just tolerate ("live with that") their
choices, but instead discover and celebrate the real learning going on.

Whatever else happens, all the other interests, other people, other
activities in the world are not going to make unschooling blossom in the
absence of your attention and focus - even if it means watching their tv
shows with them while you fold the laundry, and laughing when they want to
climb under the pile of clean towels fresh and toasty from the dryer.

Perhaps others will have some more practical suggestions for you. In the
mean time the only thing that I am sure of is that it is my attitude that
makes the greatest difference to my happiness.


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Terry

My family is unschooling and both my kids go to school (at their request). I work at my dD school. She is in second grade now. Requested to go to school right before kindergarten. She has never looked back. My son wanted to go to school because he wanted to participate in the high school marching band. He is now a senior.

My family is very happy. We understand the choices we have made will require us to follow the rules of the school. But these are choices we have made. I know that we are fortunate because my kids do not have difficulty/conflict with what the school requires them to do. They are ok with the homework. My son has often said he is ok with school because it allows him to participate with the marching band.

My husband and I are very mindful of how things affect our lives. Changes can be made when necessary.

Terry

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< My family is unschooling and both my kids go to school (at their
request). >>>>

If all your kids are in school, technically you are not "unschooling" -
which is a home schooling method. You can still be happily living a
principled life and parenting mindfully - and I'm sure your kids are orders
of magnitude better off because they are making the free choice to be in
school and can leave when they wish ( if that is true) - but technically,
legally you are neither unschooling nor home schooling.

Call me a picky stickler, but it's hard enough talking with wishy washy
homeschoolers who want to appropriate "unschooling" as a descriptor of their
eclectic, but still with the basics taught or "except for math",
homeschooling methods, without broadening the definition to include kids
enrolled, effectively permanently, in school.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

dreyerx4

Abbey,

It's sounds to me as though you are missing some great opportunities to teach your daughters. You said, "My days are consumed by chores, menu planning, cooking, breastfeeding, budgeting, breaking up fights and laundry, laundry, laundry." If your girls are bored and you have all of these chores to do then you need to put your girls to work! Teach them about nutrition by having them help you plan meals. Look through weekly sales flyers and clip coupons with them. Have them bring a calculator to the store and keep a tally of the cost of items placed in the basket, discuss which sales are better and why, etc. Buy the book, "Science in the Supermarket" to learn more and do experiments with items from the store. Get the girls cooking with you. Where does our food come from? They can learn a lot by helping measure ingredients, following a recipe and learning about different cooking techniques (how does a microwave work?). Breastfeeding is an awesome way to teach young girls about their bodies. Show charts on Anatomy and how boys and girls are different. Learn about animals who have babies and breast feed six or more! That is a great time to plop your feet up and read them a book or have them read to you...or the baby! Budgeting is a great way to teach math and money. Why not offer the girls an allowance and have them keep a notebook on how they spend. Have them open a savings account. Look at a pay stub and discuss taxes, etc. Have them write out the checks and make a calendar of when bills are due. Breaking up fights can also be a learning experience. Have them role play each other and discuss how everyone thinks or acts different (psychology). And laundry can be made into lessons also. Why not make your own laundry soap? When you fold laundry talk about fractions like "in half" etc. Discuss how soap works and about different materials. Have them look up where their clothes come from (Made in Taiwan). Read about the inventor of the washing machine, the borax mule team in California and so on. Even day to day experiences can be turned into learning opportunities because children are ALWAYS LEARNING!

- Kris in Florida


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bhmjones

Same here.

Brad Jones




________________________________
From: Terry <terryyoesting@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 8:52:47 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Quit Unschooling?


My family is unschooling and both my kids go to school (at their request). I work at my dD school. She is in second grade now. Requested to go to school right before kindergarten. She has never looked back. My son wanted to go to school because he wanted to participate in the high school marching band. He is now a senior.

My family is very happy. We understand the choices we have made will require us to follow the rules of the school. But these are choices we have made. I know that we are fortunate because my kids do not have difficulty/conflict with what the school requires them to do. They are ok with the homework. My son has often said he is ok with school because it allows him to participate with the marching band.

My husband and I are very mindful of how things affect our lives. Changes can be made when necessary.

Terry







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bhmjones

Robyn, as I understand it, unschooling is simply not forcing school on your children.

Am I incorrect?

Brad Jones




________________________________
From: Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 9:05:29 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Quit Unschooling?


<<<< My family is unschooling and both my kids go to school (at their
request). >>>>

If all your kids are in school, technically you are not "unschooling" -
which is a home schooling method. You can still be happily living a
principled life and parenting mindfully - and I'm sure your kids are orders
of magnitude better off because they are making the free choice to be in
school and can leave when they wish ( if that is true) - but technically,
legally you are neither unschooling nor home schooling.

Call me a picky stickler, but it's hard enough talking with wishy washy
homeschoolers who want to appropriate "unschooling" as a descriptor of their
eclectic, but still with the basics taught or "except for math",
homeschooling methods, without broadening the definition to include kids
enrolled, effectively permanently, in school.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles. etsy.com
www.iggyjingles. blogspot. com
www.allthingsdoll. blogspot. com







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<> Robyn, as I understand it, unschooling is simply not forcing school on
your children.
>
> Am I incorrect? >>>>>


There's nothing "simply" about it.

In the US, and I believe the UK, Australia and some other places,
unschooling is just one legal method of home schooling.

As a home schooling method it is "not doing school", not replicating school
in our homes, not replicating teaching in our thinking - but that is where
"simply" ends. The challenge is with what we replace schooling in our homes.

I think I understand what you mean when you want to say "we are unschooling
and our kids are in school". I think you mean that you are still following
unschooling principles in your parenting and lifestyle. That your kids will
have the choice to leave school freely if and when it ceases to fulfil their
needs as they define them. That those hoops that school places in your life
are worth whatever of value is gained from being in school for those kids.

But again *technically* when all the family's children are enrolled in
school they are no longer home schooling, so they are no longer unschooling.
They *are* doing school on a daily basis. Perhaps they are bringing school
home. Presumably once any or all of them leave school (while still school
age) they could easily slide right back into unschooling, and be doing so
technically again.

It's a question of muddying the definition. If the term "unschooling" is
used to mean nothing more than an attitude to life, regardless of the
legality of the definition or the actions entailed in it, then we are
getting into the fuzzy area where people might consider themselves to be
unschooling after school and on the weekends. This doesn't work for the
purposes of discussing unschooling on this list.

Many people express that they would be unschoolers at heart if they had the
courage/money/energy/whatever to take their kids out of school. This is also
in the area of the "unschooling from birth" concept, although a lot of us
argue strongly that *technically* until the child is school age they are not
officially unschooling.

Unschooling is a whole lifestyle. It does encompass a set of actions that
promote natural learning, free expression, self-knowledge, passion and
interest based living, and a method of parenting that holds respect for the
child as a whole person and the child's needs at it's heart.

Many of these ideas can exist in conjunction with schooling - especially if
the child happens to have a natural learning style that fits with school and
happens to have interests that parallel the school curriculum. I applaud
parents willing to do the hard extra work to keep holding these principles
at the center of their family despite the overwhelming nature of schooly
culture, which tends to permeate the thinking.

However this list doesn't exist to help people be happier with school choice
except in passing. It is not here to support people going to school who want
to keep the label unschooler.

I have an aquaintance who really wants to home school and be a mindful
parent. She continues to call herself a home schooler at heart. She
continues to want to use home schoolers as a resource for herself, like
babysitters after school hours or for parenting advice. Meanwhile her dd is
in school, her son with autism is in so many school based programs I can't
keep track (and she is nearly swamped herself), and her two littler ones are
in a co-op nursery school. But as far as I can tell, she is the only person
who is unhappy with her dd's school - the dd seems perfectly happy with her
school friends and school activities. The mom is also unable at this time to
make home better than school for her friend because of the overwhelming
attention and time her son needs, from her pov.

The thing is, her conversation is all about school issues. That's what
happens when kids are in school. It takes over everything - unless you make
a concious effort to hold it back like endlessly weeding. Like I said, if
you are accomplishing that, good for you.

As an aside, I could be wrong, but I don't think it will be helping the OP,
who is clearly in a lot of pain, to be telling her "put them in school, it's
still unschooling", when she is clearly struggling with gaining a deep
understanding of what flourishing unschooling requires of us as parents.


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< It's sounds to me as though you are missing some great opportunities to
teach your daughters. You said, "My days are consumed by chores, menu
planning, cooking, breastfeeding, budgeting, breaking up fights and laundry,
laundry, laundry." If your girls are bored and you have all of these chores
to do then you need to put your girls to work! Teach them about nutrition
>>>>

Too much teaching in these recommendations, too much "have them do stuff" to
be moving towards unschooling. This is moving towards school-at-home in
attitude. Perhaps school-at-home will be where the OP ends up.

But the recommendations here should be about moving towards unschooling,
shouldn't they? She can get "cure boredom by assigning chores" advice on
mainstream parenting lists.

I agree *invite* them to be part of the household tasks by making them fun,
by finding the fun in these tasks yourself. That is the big challenge -
changing our thinking and attitude within ourselves. But if every time you
respond to "I'm bored" with a job to be done, they will stop trusting you
with their emotions.

OTOH the picture of the kids and mom all cooking together is very
attractive. It's not that I'm saying the kids shouldn't be part of the
regular tasks of running a home if they want to be. And in this case, maybe
it would be one way to connect with Mom, especially if Mom is having fun in
the kitchen herself.

But as unschoolers, the onus is on Mom to find ways to connect with the kids
where *they* are, in *their* interests.

When I tried to give Jayn an allowance before she was ready, it made her
tense and unhappy. Now she joyfully earns money from making and selling
earrings online.

We just had a whole big food and nutrition thread that I would have thought
made clear the damage that can be done by "teaching nutrition".

The big conversations like philosophy and psychology and beliefs and sex
shouldn't be forced. But they *will* come up naturally at the right time -
and when they do they are magical and wonderful and deep. I know from recent
experience - but that is a post for another thread (an awesome post in the
making if I do say so myself).

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-The mom is also unable at this time to
make home better than school for her friend because of the overwhelming
attention and time her son needs, from her [point of view].-=-

I'm veering off onto another track with this, but a parallel track.

The idea that home needs to be better than school is a very important
one. I had e-mail this morning with a serious question, and I have
the author's permission to summarize it here, for discussion.
Brackets are my paraphrase; unbracketed is direct quote from the e-mail.

**************************
i hope that it is okay that i am emailing you with a personal
question. i saw that you responded to someone's question on a similar
topic about a year ago at unschooling.info and i was hoping you could
help/encourage me.

i mostly unschool (because i am still learning/deschooling myself) two
of my three children, ages 9 and 7. i just put a very angry/volatile
[young teen] back in school last week. we are beginning family
counseling with him and taking him (and all of us to biofeedback) but
we had to get him out of the house some hours of the day for the
safety of myself and my 7 year old.

i have been diagnosed bipolar back in 2004. after an on again/off
again journey, i am barely on any medication, just a very small amount
of lithium. most days i am not very stable, and as a result my
children suffer. i exist in a very agitated, sometimes depressed
state, which hinders my ability to attach deeply to my children. on
manicky or stable days i do awesome things with them like field trips,
bike rides, park outings, hikes, skiing, read great books, cook, art,
etc. but on my low and agitated days, which are about 75 percent of
the time or more, i am hiding in my room afraid to come out for fear
of losing my temper. and they are planted in front of movies.

there is a LOT more history that i could go into that involves,
babywise with my children at a young age (argh!!), hospitalization,
alcoholism, a year long separation from my husband, and more.

but my question for you is, are my children really benefiting from
unschooling in this environment, or is the unschooling allowing for
too much damage to be done to our relationship and they'd be better
off in school???? friends/therapists in every direction are telling
me to put them in school, but the thought makes me sick. i know that
those people don't know/respect/understand the value of unschool/
homeschool so they just think i need to give myself a "break" and do
what everyone else is doing.

but i need help sorting out if i am doing what is best for my kids in
having them at home or if i am only keeping them home out of guilt or
pride.

feel free to pass this email on to anyone else in the field you know
who might be able to offer guidance. i am lost.
**************************

I have ideas, but i do want to put this out for other people to
consider.

What is the purpose of unschooling? Is it possible for a mother to
unschool from guilt? From pride? How will she know and what can she
do?

There are thousands more options than "Leave it as it is" or "put them
all in school." We can't list the thousands of options, but maybe we
can help the two moms we know of and several more who don't want to
say they're having similar thoughts.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

*************
I have ideas, but i do want to put this out for other people to
consider.

What is the purpose of unschooling? Is it possible for a mother to
unschool from guilt? From pride? How will she know and what can she
do?

There are thousands more options than "Leave it as it is" or "put them
all in school." We can't list the thousands of options, but maybe we
can help the two moms we know of and several more who don't want to
say they're having similar thoughts.
*********

my initial thought is - with that history, and a diagnosis of bipolar to boot, the bipolar is obviously not being controlled adequately with a small dose of lithium, she needs better help! being depressed 75% of the time shouldn't be acceptable to anyone - her or her doctors, and it's certainly not ok for her kids. she owes it to herself AND her kids to be more stable, whether she puts them in school or not. in fact it'd be a terrible shame to go to school all day AND come home to that.

in addition, there is a huge genetic component to bipolar disorder, so getting adequate assessment/help for her kids before they go down the same path of hospitalizations, alcoholism, and misery (all common paths for bipolar people) is paramount. that doesn't necessarily mean "you must medicate all your kids" - but it sure does sound like the roller coaster of their lives isn't being managed well, or at all.

lyla

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Sandra Dodd

-=-But if every time you
respond to "I'm bored" with a job to be done, they will stop trusting
you
with their emotions.-=-

http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore
I think Robyn's very deeply right. Punishing a child for saying
"bored" is abusive. It's damaging to any parent/child relationship,
but it's he kiss of death to unschooling.

-=-OTOH the picture of the kids and mom all cooking together is very
attractive. It's not that I'm saying the kids shouldn't be part of the
regular tasks of running a home if they want to be.-=-

Right. The picture of kids cooking because the mother is "making
them" is a nightmare scene for me.

-=-We just had a whole big food and nutrition thread that I would have
thought
made clear the damage that can be done by "teaching nutrition".-=-

People join the list every day, though, and come in at any moment
along the way.
Two or three people a day join, and ideally they should read back a
few days (or weeks, or years) but very often they don't.

I did send a warning note to the author of the "teach your kids" note,
saying it would get some criticism and not to take it personally.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

flhomeschooling

Hi Abbey,

I'm not all that experienced with unschooling, I'm still reading and educating myself, so I have no doubt you'll get more helpful advice from other people. But I have a nearly-12yo boy with moderate autism too. I'm a single parent with no family around, so I have to work part-time and run the household by myself. I relate to feeling overwhelmed. :)

> My days are consumed by chores,

This is a problem. I would really recommend you look at time-management tools for homemakers, like FlyLady.net. She focuses on radically reducing your clutter to lessen your household workload, and doing chores in manageable, incremental ways.

> menu planning

Don't plan menus. This puts ALL the food decision-making on your shoulders, which is unfair to your family and unfair to you. And it never works out the way you plan anyway, am I right?

Instead, use a list of stuff your family likes to eat as a grocery shopping list. We have a dry-erase list of "here's what we can eat based on what we have in the house" on the fridge. My kid then tells me what he wants that day, and that's what we have. It's literally a no-brainer. It takes no thought or effort whatsoever.

> cooking

Will your daughters help with that? Most kids love the kitchen. Don't say, "Do you want to help me cook?" Make a game of it. "Who is going to be Mom's helpers in making yummy brownies today??" My kid has his own apron, he loves it that much. *g*

> and laundry, laundry, laundry. 

I realize there are 3 times as many people in your household as mine. But if you're doing "laundry, laundry, laundry," all day, every day, chances are AWESOME that you *have too many clothes* (and probably linens).

I'm completely serious. If you have fewer clothes to wash, then you don't get the monstrous backlogs of laundry to do. Once I cut our closets' contents down to size, we now only do 4 loads of laundry a week now. With a family of 6, that works out to about 2 loads a day - not a crazy amount.

>They also dont seem to have any interests that they follow. 

But they do. They love ponies and dolls. Those are both vast interests!

You don't have to be creative; you just have to play with them. Do you play Barbies and My Little Pony with them? There are TONS of printables, crafts and coloring pages based on these 2 subjects alone, btw. Do you watch their shows and make organic, engaging conversation based on what you're watching? Do you hang out outdoors with them? Do you take nature walks with them? Do you actively put interesting things in their path to discover? Don't ask, just put it out there for them and make conversation about what it is. It'll be hit or miss, but you'll have some hits.

> My 4 year old told me she wants to
> go to school and my 7 year old agrees. 

When kids say this, they don't always mean they want to go to school; they say it out of frustration and resentment. School is a tangible alternative to them, but it isn't the only one.

You wouldn't drive your kids to the middle of a giant forest, drop them off, say "The forest is AWESOME, trust me, there's a bunch of fun stuff to do and cool things to see here, ok, bye!" and drive off. But if you don't actively participate in their day-to-day lives, that is the equivalent. Your kids need you to open up constant opportunities for them to discover what they're passionate about. Being left to play My Little Pony or watch TV all day by defaut while a resentful stressed out mom nurses the baby and does 2723795 piles of laundry won't help them do that.

I hope some of the things I've said have been helpful.

Andrea in Miami

Sandra Dodd

The mom with the bi-polar question wrote this, when she saw my post:

"thank you for posting that, sandra. and your words and the end so
perfectly "get at" what i am struggling with. i felt profound emotion
as i read that."

I've brought that here to help confirm that she is paying attention
and does want feedback.

Although it's possible for a family to totally ignore the state's
expectations, I think it's a bad idea. The state of New Mexico, for
example, wants 180 days of school, with several subjects. At my
house kids have learned way more than 180 days a year, and many more
subjects. But what if my kids were not having 180 good unschooling
days a year? What if I was hiding out 75% of the time, and they only
had maybe 90 good days a year?

What if I had an emotionally detrimental condition? I get depressed
every few years, every three or five (hard to say). It would be more,
but I'm pretty good at managing my moods and emotions. Sometimes I
can't. This season I took prozac (I'm still taking it) because I knew
that the trip to England and the Monkey Platter Festival and the Santa
Fe Symposium were unlikely to come off in an ideal world. And sure
enough, Holly moved, and then came back, and is now going to Europe
and will miss Christmas. I had leg damage and was incapacitated for
nearly a month.

So although usually in my life I've only take Prozac for a month or
two to get up out of a debilitating depression (four or five times
over 20 years), this time I went to the counsellor in Spring, laid out
my schedule for the rest of the year, told her how I was feeling and
what my concerns were, and asked if she knew any clinical findings
that would make it dangerous to take an anti-depressant (Prozac
particularly) for several months running.

Of course there are people who are on anti-depressants without even
going to counselling. Not good. That's not me.

I don't intend to stay on Prozac always. In January if I'm "up" and
energetic, I'll ease off and maybe never take any again. Or maybe
someday something overwhelming will happen and I won't be able to
breathe and sing my way up and out of my mood.

If I were unwilling or unable to go to a counsellor and consider
taking anti-depressants and if I had no idea how to cheer myself up
and onward, and if I chose to say "I have depression, so..." then
maybe it would be better for me to have put my kids in school when
Holly was two or three and I had a depressive episode so big that
strangers pointed it out to me because of some things I had written.

Whether or not anyone has any diagnosed "problem" or condition, it's
easy to get in a funk or in a defensive emotional position where one
feels justified in being sad or angry or tries to sleep it off with
naps and maybe sleep aids. It's bad for the mother of a baby or
toddler to take sleeping pills, generally speaking.

So anyone with a serious need to consider whether moods are preventing
an even-keeled unschooling journey, please read this, slowly, not
necessarily all in one sitting. Work on it until you can really catch
yourself and breathe yourself to a better thinking-moment.

http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
http://sandradodd.com/breathing

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-
> menu planning

Don't plan menus. This puts ALL the food decision-making on your
shoulders, which is unfair to your family and unfair to you. And it
never works out the way you plan anyway, am I right?

Instead, use a list of stuff your family likes to eat as a grocery
shopping list. We have a dry-erase list of "here's what we can eat
based on what we have in the house" on the fridge. My kid then tells
me what he wants that day, and that's what we have. It's literally a
no-brainer. It takes no thought or effort whatsoever.-=-

That might work if it's only a mom and kids, but if there's a dad,
especially one who does physical labor, he's going to want real food
on a schedule, most likely. It's still possible to loosen up, but not
to treat the breadwinner as another kid who might decide when he gets
home what he wants to eat from what's in the fridge. Keith does find
himself in that situation a fair amount of the time, but it's never
"the good days" and it's not ideal.

Sandra

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flhomeschooling

> That might work if it's only a mom and kids, but if there's a dad,
> especially one who does physical labor, he's going to want real food
> on a schedule, most likely.

It really has nothing to do with the dad being around or not. They have to figure out a way to make mealtimes work for their particular situation, which may or may not involve a "breadwinner who does physical labor" - the OP didn't say. But this is something the OP has said is contributing to the household falling into stress and unhappiness, so it's something that needs some kind of change. Whatever she's doing right now isn't working for her family, by her account.

Even if there is a spouse/partner that requires "real food" at a family sit-down meal every night, there's still the other meals, snacks, etc., when that person isn't around that doesn't require a whole lot of forethought, especially not to the point of exhaustion. Mostly, I said "don't plan menus" because it doesn't sound to me like she's planning just 7 sit-down adult dinners a week, which doesn't take much time or effort. OP cited "menu planning" as part of the list of things she's finding overwhelming and exhausting to the point where she can't be an active parent.

A LOT of people do "menu planning" down to the daily snacks, desserts, drinks - planning 20-40 meals EVERY WEEK. This is actually common "wisdom" for budget planning and reducing your grocery bills (though I don't think that's true). That would exhaust anyone, much less someone with mountains of laundry, a baby and a kid with special needs. Something's gotta give; I saw that as an area that could be deprioritized easily.

Andrea in Miami

Sandra Dodd

-=-It really has nothing to do with the dad being around or not. They
have to figure out a way to make mealtimes work for their particular
situation, which may or may not involve a "breadwinner who does
physical labor" - the OP didn't say. -=-

Sure, but we're not just writing about original posters. A
suggestion that one person or anyone just stop planning meals could be
"adopted" by someone as though it's the magical road to unschooling,
but it's not.

If the principle is that food is important and people shouldn't stress
about food, or that kids should have choices, or whatever, that
shouldn't keep someone from planning what *should* be planned.

When unschooling creates any stress whatsoever between a husband and
wife, or between parents whether married or not, then it HUGELY
matters whether the dad is around or not. If a mother puts her
children ahead of her relationship with the father, she risks having
no unschooling whatsoever.

Sandra

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Jenny Cyphers

 
Robyn, as I understand it, unschooling is simply not forcing school on your children.

Am I incorrect?

Brad Jones

<<<< My family is unschooling and both my kids go to school (at their
request). >>>>
 and Robyn replied:
***If all your kids are in school, technically you are not "unschooling" -
which is a home schooling method. ***
 
If your kids are in school you aren't unschooling.  How can you be?  In the US, at least, in every state there is an exemption of some sort to compulsory public schooling.  If you are using that exemption and your kids are in private school, they are schooling.  Ditto for public charters.  Options are great, but all options don't equal unschooling.  Being kind and generous and thoughtful and attentive to you children is wonderful, with or without school.
 
If your kids have always unschooled and decided to try school, at the moment they entered school, they wouldn't be unschooling, even if it was by their own choice.  You could follow the same principles that worked while you unschooled, but your kids would still be IN school.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

flhomeschooling

Just as unschooling doesn't mean not paying your rent if your kid wants all your money spent on video games instead, you need to get done what you need to get done. If not planning for dinner is going to cause huge rows between a husband and wife, the wife should plan meals. But planning in advance what kind of sandwich your kids have for lunch 7 days a week isn't really in the "need to get done" column if it means a trade-off with attention and focus from you. IMHO.

> When unschooling creates any stress whatsoever between a husband and
> wife, or between parents whether married or not, then it HUGELY
> matters whether the dad is around or not.

I'm sorry, I sincerely don't know what "then it HUGELY matters whether the dad is around or not" means in this context.

A marriage relationship can/should set the tone for a climate of peace and encouragement in the home if it exists. And if you have a spouse who wants final say in meals when s/he's around, then it's probably best to go with that for those meals. But if you don't rigidly plan for the meals that happen when he's not around, that still works toward the goal of helping her to carve out more time and energy for the kids.

In my response, I only focused on the details she gave. I agree the post belies marriage tension and that should be a priority over anything else.

Andrea in Miami

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm sorry, I sincerely don't know what "then it HUGELY matters
whether the dad is around or not" means in this context. -=-

In any context, on any message on this forum, suggesting that it
doesn't matter whether the dad is around is a bad idea. It doesn't
help unschooling to send a mom in a direction other than strong family.

When you wrote "It really has nothing to do with the dad being around
or not," I reacted both as the list owner and as one who has seen
casual advice cause big problems.

Yes, there are single parents who are unschooling. There will be many
more of them (and fewer unschoolers) if people are cavalier about
those relationships.

Sandra





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flhomeschooling

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I'm sorry, I sincerely don't know what "then it HUGELY matters
> whether the dad is around or not" means in this context. -=-
>
> In any context, on any message on this forum, suggesting that it
> doesn't matter whether the dad is around is a bad idea.

With all due respect, I think that's taking what I said WAY out of context. I said my advice about not micromanaging what the kids eat, to the point of exhaustion, can apply, if it's less stressful for the family, and that's whether or not you're eating that specific meal with a spouse.

At no point did anyone say it doesn't matter whether the dad is around *at all*. At no point did anyone in this discussion even imply that. I was *specifically speaking to the OP's desire to not be so stressed by chores like menu-planning.* I've said this six separate times now, explicitly. I understand this is a topic that makes you emotional, but that's quite an out-of-context reading of what was said.

Andrea in Miami

Sandra Dodd

-=-I've said this six separate times now, explicitly. -=-

Really? Than that's way, WAY too much.

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Abbey LaBorde

All of this advice has been so helpful, and has also led me to look a little deeper into what I'm trying to say......

What Robyn said was so true.........me wanting my girls to "go and do" instead of  "doing with them" is probably where I am going wrong. I'm ashamed to admit it but it's true.  But I have to admit I was (accidentally) not entirely clear about my situation.  My 7 year old daughter who has Moderate/Severe Autism often makes my life a living hell (I say that with love).  I adore her but she turns my life and my home upside down.  Every morning I wake up hoping she's not covered in fecal matter (Long story, yes I've tried everything, she just likes playing in it).  I can't leave Anything within her reach, or she will make a mess with it. 

A few examples.......

Leave a bottle of shampoo in the shower, she squeezes it All out and plays in it.
Leave a glass of water on a table, she pours it on the floor.
Leave dish soap by the sink, she squeezes it All out.
Leave baby powder on table, sprinkles All of it out.
Can't have curtains, she pulls them down and the rod bends.
Make a dinner she doesn't like, she'll dump it in the garbage when I'm not looking.
All exterior doors must have special locks for her safety.
I have to have a key to get in my pantry.
My fridge and freezer have padlocks on them.
 
So, what I'm trying to say is the stress of taking care of my autistic daughter, plus the stress of a newborn, plus the stress of having a husband who does not help with kids or household chores (yes I mean NOTHING), is making  me feel unenthusiastic
about getting involved with playing barbie's or ponies or playing outside.  If I have a spare minute, I would rather have my own thoughts instead of watching " My little Pony Tea Party" and asking my daughter "what do you think Pinkie Pie is going to do next honey?"

BOTTOM LINE:  Is there no exception to the unschooling rule?  Is it not possible for my kids to learn and/or pursue interests without me constantly guiding/following them and being involved in their activities?  Is my situation so weird and wacked out that I have to be one of the few who unschooling will not work for?  I hope the answer is no.

Abbey



 



________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 5:04:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Quit Unschooling?

 
-=-I'm sorry, I sincerely don't know what "then it HUGELY matters
whether the dad is around or not" means in this context. -=-

In any context, on any message on this forum, suggesting that it
doesn't matter whether the dad is around is a bad idea. It doesn't
help unschooling to send a mom in a direction other than strong family.

When you wrote "It really has nothing to do with the dad being around
or not," I reacted both as the list owner and as one who has seen
casual advice cause big problems.

Yes, there are single parents who are unschooling. There will be many
more of them (and fewer unschoolers) if people are cavalier about
those relationships.

Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-BOTTOM LINE: Is there no exception to the unschooling rule? -=-

There's not a rule.
There are principles.

Are your kids better off than they would be in school?
Are you doing the very best you can do?

Could you hire an attendant for your seven year old, possibly? Or if
she went to school, would unschooling work better for the others?

-=- Is my situation so weird and wacked out that I have to be one of
the few who unschooling will not work for?-=-

It's not a "have to."
It wouldn't be a case of "one of the few." Unschooling works for a
small percentage of a small subset. Most families can't even figure
out how to homeschool, even if they want to. Most families have too
many obstacles--physical, financial, social and emotional.

If anyone has told you "anyone can unschool," or "unschooling is for
everyone," I'm sorry. It's not easy. It's not easily accessible.

If your husband is pro-unschooling and supportive, talk to him about
getting help.
If he's ambivalent, try to find a conference you and he could go to
(even without kids, or take a grandmother to stay with kids part of
the time or something).
If he's opposed, considering your other burdens, it might not work.

Sandra




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Jenny Cyphers

> -=-I'm sorry, I sincerely don't know what "then it HUGELY matters
> whether the dad is around or not" means in this context. -=-
>
> In any context, on any message on this forum, suggesting that it
> doesn't matter whether the dad is around is a bad idea.

***With all due respect, I think that's taking what I said WAY out of context. I said my advice about not micromanaging what the kids eat, to the point of exhaustion, can apply, if it's less stressful for the family, and that's whether or not you're eating that specific meal with a spouse.***

Micro managing what kids eat could be a part of meal planning, but maye not.  The OP may not be doing that.  The meal planning could be part of trying to organize chaos, or it could be about budgeting, or it could be about family time at the dinner table. 

Since we don't know, it's hard to speculate how to change what is currently being done, since it clearly IS causing stress.  The OP, did say that the husband was very uninvolved.  One way to involve a male partner is to feed him.  It's a biological maleness, I think, to feel loved and cared for through food.  I'm guilty of not doing it enough in my own relationship.   It's something I'm keenly aware of and working on making better.  That doesn't necessarily mean that I need to do weekly meal planning, but it does mean that I need to budget food into my grocery list that I kow my partner will eat, along with really easy to prepare foods that he likes and can make for himself when he needs to and isn't very into the meal that I've created, which is often vegetarian in nature.

The biggest thing that has helped me do better in making food, IS planning ahead.  Then the next biggest thing that helps is to make twice or three times what I think I'll need so that there will be leftovers.  Leftovers is one or more less meals to plan for.

Accomodating each person's need for food can be a big deal with many kids that like many different things.  Add a husband into the mix that likes to eat on a schedule, and eat traditional meals and you've got a lot of meal planning to do.  It can be simplified though, like Andrea has said.  What works for a mother and son, however wonderful for mother and son, may not work for a much larger family.

Of all the stressors listed by the OP, I think this would be the last one to change.  Laundry, messes, house cleaning are all easier to implement changes that will cause immediate calm.  Small food changes seem better than a complete revamping of a system.  Keeping food on hand that kids can grab and eat, is one idea that can help eliminate meal planning.  Planning for grab and go foods takes a change in thinking about meals and food in general.

I think a lot of people on this list and others can attest to the fact that many people let go of food controls to "get" unschooling.  What I've seen and what others here can attest to, is that often, it's replaced with chaos and unhappy kids, and husbands, that have no idea what they are supposed to be eating.   I think this is probably where Sandra is coming from in her thinking about dumping meal planning.  I'd say about every 2 months or so, someone comes on this list with question about how to undo that kind of damage.  As Sandra says, it's in the getting colder, not warmer realm.

So, if the OP is having issues with meal planning because she's trying very hard to have LESS chaos, then this presents a problem.  Think BABY steps!  Not huge revamping of a family system that turns everything upside down, which has happened many times over when people dump meal planning. 

This is my take on it all, after reading the thread! 





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Jenny Cyphers

***If I have a spare minute, I would rather have my own thoughts instead of watching " My little Pony Tea Party" and asking my daughter "what do you think Pinkie Pie is going to do next honey?"***
 
One thing that I've found through this process of unschooling, is that if you work very hard to get there, even when you feel you want to be with your own thoughts, that eventually your thoughts will be intertwined with your children's.  They aren't mutually exclusive.
 
Look at the world through the eyes of your kids.  See why your autistic child wants to pour stuff out.  Give her an outlet to do so, include all your kids in it.  Clearly she likes repetitive textural things of a liquid nature, or a pouring nature.  Perhaps the barbies can take a beach trip in a huge sand table set up specifically for textural play and barbie beach party play.

You don't have to do that one specific thing, it's just one idea.  Think of things that you can all do together or side by side.  Be their partner.  Don't seperate yourself from them and what they love and do, involve yourself in whatever capacity you can.  Wait until your most difficult child is actively engaged to swap out laundry.  Or involve her in big huge warm laundry pile to jump in and climb under.  Use a sling for nursing on the go.  Let her pour the laundry soap and play in the washer water as it fills. 
 
If your husband doesn't help with the kids, he may be feeling the chaos too and running from it.  What does he like to do?  Do any of the kids actively engage him in any play?  Is there anything they do together?  Also, if he's working and bringing in an income, he IS helping, in a BIG way.  Don't take that for granted EVER!!! 




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Robyn L. Coburn

Abbey, I have some thoughts flying around after reading your post, but I'm
too tired to be coherent. I will post more in the morning after I have had a
chance to think some more.

However, in the mean time, I will say that your 7yo is not the first child
on the spectrum (and not on the spectrum) who I have personally seen with a
fascination for pouring liquid. I would ask you to think about how these
tactile activities you list might be her best path to learning and joy, and
how you could facilitate more of them - without driving yourself crazy!

If she has more opportunities to squeeze and squish stuff, maybe (a big
guess here) her own poop will become less attractive. How can she do more of
this messy play in a space or situation that is easy clean up for you? This
is where we might have some brainstorming suggestions.

BTW the baby play with little voices doesn't last forever.

<<<< If I have a spare minute, I would rather have my own thoughts instead
>>>>>

Are your own thoughts making you happy or are they leading you down a dark
path of dissatisfaction and resentment? Unschooling works best when you can
find the resources within to stay in the moment.

<<< the stress of having a husband who does not help with kids or household
chores (yes I mean NOTHING)>>>

Have you told your dh that you really need help somehow and ask him for his
ideas? Or have you repeatedly told him he is doing nothing and it sucks? My
dh doesn't react well to being criticised, even mildly, or any kind of
expectation that he take the initiative in what he perceives as my
perogative (the house). But he wants to help, as long as he is clearly asked
for just what is needed rather than a generalized "help me" ( or worse
"can't you see I need help?!?"). As much as I would like to see him
"share/take responsibility" equally, what I am getting and choosing to be
grateful for, is him "helping me".

Perhaps he would react better to being asked for help if it is couched in
terms of forming closer bonds with his dd's, enhancing the relationship he
has with them. Let him start off with some really fun stuff doing with them,
that would still be helping.

I guess I'm not quite as tired as I thought, but I still must go to bed now.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Pam Sorooshian

> ***If I have a spare minute, I would rather have my own thoughts instead of watching " My little Pony Tea Party" and asking my daughter "what do you think Pinkie Pie is going to do next honey?"***
>

But, unschooling isn't doing what is described above - that is a very
schoolish approach. That's a parent trying to be a teacher - trying to
make a kid think about what the parent/teacher thinks is important.
Teachers constantly make kids stop reading books and answer questions
about what they think will happen next. How rude and annoying.

I watched a LOT of "Arthur" with my daughter, but I didn't ask leading
questions like that - we just enjoyed it together. If she talked about
it, it was because she wanted to talk about it. That's all. I didn't
always watch with her, but I watched a lot because she LOVED it and it
was fun for both of us to enjoy that show together. I got a tape of the
music and I got her some Arthur dolls and some coloring books and stuff
like that. Sometimes things from the shows would come up in our lives,
just naturally, but I wasn't using the show to "get her to think" or
anything like that. This was my youngest daughter and one day she said,
"Mom, sometimes Arthur isn't that nice to DW". We had a good talk about
older and younger siblings, etc.

I think if a parent can't muster up an interest in hanging out with
their own kids and talking to them about what interests them, then
unschooling will not be a good option at all, though. I don't think
everybody should do it - not everybody is that interested.

-pam

Kim Zerbe

<<< But, unschooling isn't doing what is described above - that is a very
schoolish approach. That's a parent trying to be a teacher - trying to
make a kid think about what the parent/teacher thinks is important.
Teachers constantly make kids stop reading books and answer questions
about what they think will happen next. How rude and annoying. >>>


A couple of days ago a friend stopped by with her 4yo son. He found some
swords and my 5yo battled with him. She loudly asked her son "What type of
swords are those?" and they both knew but didn't answer. She tried again,
"Who might use a sword like that?" No response. She answered her own
question, "Maybe a knight or a pirate might use a sword like that?" By then
the kids are playing with something else and completely ignoring her! She
killed their interest in the swords!!!

Should I mention that my friend is a teacher? That explains her inherant
need to "teach" them something. (I'm sure I"ve done stuff like that, but
less and less as time goes on. Now I'm aware of when other people do it.)

It was insulting. Hello, my son knew about knights and swords when he was 3.
He specifically wanted to be a Knight for Halloween. He already had a
helmet, sword, and shield, and when he expressed a desire for a more
complete ensemble we went shopping and found a costume to wear with it. He
also had a horse on a stick he would ride and a dragon costume I wore a few
times so he could slay me (it was easier to put the dragon head on a 2nd
horse on a stick and have him attack that!).

Recently I observed a mom in a music class trying to give her daughter the
answers! I was struck with the thought that if you have to TELL a kid what
they are hearing, maybe the class isn't working for that kid. We were
sitting in the waiting area, on the other side of a 3ft dividing wall, most
of us reading books. The kids were dancing around the room listening to
music and the teacher asked what instruments they could hear in the song.
Some kids were guessing or identifiying flutes, triangle, cymbols, and this
mom's DD hadn't said anything yet so she was calling at her and waving over
the wall making the motions of hands playing the piano. Her DD didn't get
it. She got more dramatic with her hands! Some other kid guessed piano (who
wasn't even looking at her) and she was SO MAD!!! She almost snapped at her
DD for not getting her clue!

I think I could have been that kind of mom. If I hadn't read Dr Sears' The
Baby Book and latched (haha) onto attachment parenting and really felt good
about it and had that lead me to reading all sorts of other things about
respecting children. And eventually to Unschooling. I am so glad I am not
that kind of parent. I am drifting further and further away from that every
day by reading and putting to practice what I've been reading.

Kim Zerbe in Oregon


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Sandra Dodd

-=Teachers constantly make kids stop reading books and answer questions
about what they think will happen next. How rude and annoying.-=-

And one way to consider whether you're being "rude and annoying" with
a child is to picture yourself doing that with your best friend, or
with a house guest.

Sandra

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