Sandra Dodd

My 17 year old daughter is lately with me only by phone and internet.
She left a tweet yesterday that I've just seen:

"I'm in a kitchen with three moms and tons of kids and every child's
personal food needs are being met."

Not many people picked randomly would believe her statement, and
probably fewer would believe that's what a 17 year old girl would be
doing and choose to comment about, if she were socializing with
families with small children on a Friday night instead of out doing
wild teen things.

Sandra

Joanna

> Not many people picked randomly would believe her statement, and
> probably fewer would believe that's what a 17 year old girl would be
> doing and choose to comment about, if she were socializing with
> families with small children on a Friday night instead of out doing
> wild teen things.
>
> Sandra

My son is 14, and I'm having a similar experience that not many people would believe what our life is like. I've actually had one friend/acquaintance recently describe our life together as "unrealistic." Really? Unrealistic? But it IS our real life!! (said in an exasperated, incredulous and somewhat whiney tone.)

The particular subject we were discussing was teens and sharing secrets. My teen WANTS to share his secrets with me, because he trusts me with them and really really wants my opinion and advice about all kinds of stuff. It feels so natural to me, and to him. He has said he feels sorry for his friends that don't/won't confide in their parents, because they are cut off from their parents' experience.

What doesn't feel natural was the relationship she was describing, where her daughter hides stuff from her and she doesn't want to spy and break their trust. There were so many components of what she said that seemed sad to me that I didn't quite know where to start. She was actually asking my opinion on the "spying" thing, which lead to me describing our relationship where "spying" isn't even in the equation--my desire to do it, or his desire to "hide" stuff. He has plenty of privacy, but he chooses to share a lot with me.

The main thing that stuck out to me was the fact that I didn't really see that they had much trust to break or not break. The daughter didn't trust her, and she didn't trust her daughter, so where was the trust?

I guess I'm just feeling the need to connect with others who have healthy, friendly, REAL relationships with their teens.

Joanna

Pam Sorooshian

On 10/4/2009 9:18 PM, Joanna wrote:
> I guess I'm just feeling the need to connect with others who have healthy, friendly, REAL relationships with their teens.
>

I think I do have that "unrealistic" <g> kind of relationship, too, for
the most part. I mean, I think there are things my daughters discuss
more with each other than with me --- but that's also because they HAVE
each other and they are the same generation and they do connect with
each other in a way that is different than mom/daughter. But, there are
things each of them talks more about with me than with anybody else. And
they aren't keeping secrets or sneaking around - far from it. Instead,
they are asking advice and sharing cool things and giving ME advice,
too, sometimes.

-pam

Cara Barlow

> <<<My son is 14, and I'm having a similar experience that not many people
> would believe what our life is like. I've actually had one
> friend/acquaintance recently describe our life together as "unrealistic."
> Really? Unrealistic? But it IS our real life!! (said in an exasperated,
> incredulous and somewhat whiney tone.) >>>
>







I have a daughter who is 13 and we attend a UU church. This is the year they
do OWL (Our Whole Lives) sex ed program with that age group. At one of the
September parent orientation meetings we were asked, as an icebreaker
question, how many of us had fought with our teen in the previous week. I
was the only one who didn't raise his/her hand. I'm sure that was viewed
with skepticism, but it was true.

Best wishes, Cara B


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carnationsgalore

> The main thing that stuck out to me was the fact that I didn't really
> see that they had much trust to break or not break. The daughter
> didn't trust her, and she didn't trust her daughter, so where was the
> trust?

I've had a similar experience with my sister and her children, now ages 24 and 15. She believes there can't be a feeling of trust between parents and children because it's not the natural order of families. Caring parents search children's bedrooms to find/confiscate items that aren't good for them and can harm their growing up. As kids become more and more independent, they hide things from their parents so they feel empowered to become an adult. I've never understood her way of thinking.

Then again, this is the same person that held my newborn son 13 years ago, then laughed and told me that now I would learn what being a real parent meant, because boys never get close to their moms. It is difficult for me to believe we were raised in the same household and have grown up with extremely different opinions about being a parent.

A thought just occurred to me, both she and my mom love to recite the adage that says, A son is a son till he takes a wife, a daughter is a daughter the whole of her life. That doesn't describe the relationship between my children and me. I have a dd17, ds13, and dd11.

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I've actually had one friend/acquaintance recently describe our
life together as "unrealistic." Really? Unrealistic? -=-

How interesting. "Realistic" as a measure.

I can see someone saying "That's unrealistic" if you predict an
outcome, but when you're reporting a *reality*?
Wow.

When Kirby was five years old I wasn't even thinking he would ever BE
a teenager. I had three little kids; I was busy. But when I did
think about what I thought would happen with this unschooling, I
figured the teen years would be similar to what I thought was
"natural" with teens. I was wrong. How cool!! The relationship
with the teens is one of my favorite unforeseen outcomes.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-I think I do have that "unrealistic" <g> kind of relationship, too,
for
the most part. I mean, I think there are things my daughters discuss
more with each other than with me --- but that's also because they HAVE
each other and they are the same generation and they do connect with
each other in a way that is different than mom/daughter. But, there are
things each of them talks more about with me than with anybody else.-=-

Kirby's dog (his roommate's dog, but Kirby and the dog are particular
buds) was bitten by a snake. I asked Holly (in Oregon) about it, and
sure enough she knew more about it than I did, and she had already
advised Kirby to be careful when he did get around to mowing the lawn
and he had told her he would wear tall boots and have an angry lawn
mower.

When Kirby was thinking seriously of approaching Roxana (Pam's
daughter) in a possibly-romantic way, he talked to me first, and then
to Marty and Roya (his brother & her sister). Is that realistic or
what? <g>

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-At one of the
September parent orientation meetings we were asked, as an icebreaker
question, how many of us had fought with our teen in the previous
week. I
was the only one who didn't raise his/her hand. I'm sure that was viewed
with skepticism, but it was true.-=-

When Holly was in trouble and we had to go to a meeting (which I still
haven't described, and I keep meaning to), Keith and I were both going
to go, but it was scheduled when Keith and Marty were going to be
going to Wyoming or something (see, I'm already starting to forget).
So I went with Holly. Had Keith gone, she would have been the only
one there with two parents.

There were about 20 kids with one parent each. Holly and I were
leaning, holding hands sometimes, touching each other, being sweet.
Some of the other parents wouldn't even look at their child. One dad
with his son seemed absolutely cold. No responses to anything, no eye
contact with his son or anyone else. Some others were concerned or
seeming strict, or having that "told you so" posture and response.
Holly cried twice--not sobbing, but tears. I was comforting her and I
was sympathetic. I felt like the only sympathetic one there. Some
of the other parents seemed loving, but with some combination of
pissed off and distant.

Sandra

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Jenny Cyphers

>>>She was actually asking my opinion on the "spying" thing, which lead to me describing our relationship where "spying" isn't even in the equation--my desire to do it, or his desire to "hide" stuff. He has plenty of privacy, but he chooses to share a lot with me.
The main thing that stuck out to me was the fact that I didn't really see that they had much trust to break or not break. The daughter didn't trust her, and she didn't trust her daughter, so where was the trust?>>>

Oh yes! We don't have that issue either! Chamille lets me clean her room for her. I don't do it all the time, but sometimes, as a kind gesture or when I haven't seen any clothing of hers float toward the laundry pile for a while. She lets me in her room because she knows I won't snoop around and that if I found anything potentially "incriminating", that 1. I wouldn't make a big deal about it, and 2. I probably already knew because she'd told me anyway, or 3. I'd put the evidence back and pretend that I hadn't seen anything until she was ready to tell me, knowing that she would and if she didn't, it means that it wasn't a big enough deal in the first place.

The thing is, she doesn't hide stuff. It's all right there, right here, a part of her. There isn't anything to hide because there isn't any shame or blame that happens. I don't think there are any hiding places in her room. I remember having hiding places in my room. Chamille's boyfriend has hiding places in his room, and his dad does go through his room when he's not there, but not to clean it, to steal money and spy. Cyle keeps his money at our house now.

I don't think that my parents ever went through my room, but the distrust was there anyway. If they had gone through my room and found anything, it wouldn't have surprised me in the least, it would have verified my feelings of lack of trust. If there's any question at all, then there really isn't any trust!




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Jenny Cyphers

>>>Instead, they are asking advice and sharing cool things and giving ME advice,
too, sometimes.>>>

I love it when my kids give me advice! Sometimes, because they are used to thinking for themselves, they come up with great solutions to things, things I wouldn't have considered!




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musicmom98233

I feel really sad when I hear parents describing their adversarial relationships with their kids and sighing "well, YOU know how teenagers are!" I want to jump up and yell "No, I don't!"

My 15 yo son happens to be one of my favorite people to talk with - he's interested in tons of things and loves to explore ideas, including things that I suspect many parents never discuss with their kids. Other adults he is around like to work and talk with him, too. Last week he told me about a friend who was grounded as punishment for some infraction, and said that what HE would worry about was losing our respect, because he sees that most parents don't respect their kids and that is very important to him.

I feel so lucky that we learned about attachment parenting when he was born, and that radical unschooling just felt like the logical extension of the way we wanted to live - otherwise, we might have missed so much.

Thea


--- In [email protected], Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> >>>She was actually asking my opinion on the "spying" thing, which lead to me describing our relationship where "spying" isn't even in the equation--my desire to do it, or his desire to "hide" stuff. He has plenty of privacy, but he chooses to share a lot with me.
> The main thing that stuck out to me was the fact that I didn't really see that they had much trust to break or not break. The daughter didn't trust her, and she didn't trust her daughter, so where was the trust?>>>
>
> Oh yes! We don't have that issue either! Chamille lets me clean her room for her. I don't do it all the time, but sometimes, as a kind gesture or when I haven't seen any clothing of hers float toward the laundry pile for a while. She lets me in her room because she knows I won't snoop around and that if I found anything potentially "incriminating", that 1. I wouldn't make a big deal about it, and 2. I probably already knew because she'd told me anyway, or 3. I'd put the evidence back and pretend that I hadn't seen anything until she was ready to tell me, knowing that she would and if she didn't, it means that it wasn't a big enough deal in the first place.
>
> The thing is, she doesn't hide stuff. It's all right there, right here, a part of her. There isn't anything to hide because there isn't any shame or blame that happens. I don't think there are any hiding places in her room. I remember having hiding places in my room. Chamille's boyfriend has hiding places in his room, and his dad does go through his room when he's not there, but not to clean it, to steal money and spy. Cyle keeps his money at our house now.
>
> I don't think that my parents ever went through my room, but the distrust was there anyway. If they had gone through my room and found anything, it wouldn't have surprised me in the least, it would have verified my feelings of lack of trust. If there's any question at all, then there really isn't any trust!
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Alyson Camacho

I feel really sad when people speak of teenagers in general. I can't
tell you how often we hear (in front of my kids even) "wow, three
girls? Just wait until they are teenagers" :( I do speak up, and I do
disgree with the implied inevitable outcome of having three teenage
daughters at once.

Unfortunately all I hear in reply is along the lines of "just wait and
see". I am discredited because they are not yet teenagers so what can
I know? Do they really not remember being teenagers themselves?
Because it seems really fresh and clear in my mind. I still feel
wildly misunderstood by those in my life as a teen.

But then many of these same people predicted spoiled and horrid
children by way of my early years parenting choices, and have since
had to eat their words. So I try to focus on being the mom I am, and
loving the kids in my life. Time seems to be all that might change
their minds.

It is rather unfortunate that they can't at least entertain the idea
that teenagers can be amazing, interesting, brilliant people to share
a world with.

>
> I feel really sad when I hear parents describing their adversarial relationships with their kids and sighing "well, YOU know how teenagers are!" I want to jump up and yell "No, I don't!"
>
> My 15 yo son happens to be one of my favorite people to talk with - he's interested in tons of things and loves to explore ideas, including things that I suspect many parents never discuss with their kids. Other adults he is around like to work and talk with him, too. Last week he told me about a friend who was grounded as punishment for some infraction, and said that what HE would worry about was losing our respect, because he sees that most parents don't respect their kids and that is very important to him.
>
> I feel so lucky that we learned about attachment parenting when he was born, and that radical unschooling just felt like the logical extension of the way we wanted to live - otherwise, we might have missed so much.
>
> Thea
>
> --- In [email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com');>, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>>
>> >>>She was actually asking my opinion on the "spying" thing, which lead to me describing our relationship where "spying" isn't even in the equation--my desire to do it, or his desire to "hide" stuff. He has plenty of privacy, but he chooses to share a lot with me.
>> The main thing that stuck out to me was the fact that I didn't really see that they had much trust to break or not break. The daughter didn't trust her, and she didn't trust her daughter, so where was the trust?>>>
>>
>> Oh yes! We don't have that issue either! Chamille lets me clean her room for her. I don't do it all the time, but sometimes, as a kind gesture or when I haven't seen any clothing of hers float toward the laundry pile for a while. She lets me in her room because she knows I won't snoop around and that if I found anything potentially "incriminating", that 1. I wouldn't make a big deal about it, and 2. I probably already knew because she'd told me anyway, or 3. I'd put the evidence back and pretend that I hadn't seen anything until she was ready to tell me, knowing that she would and if she didn't, it means that it wasn't a big enough deal in the first place.
>>
>> The thing is, she doesn't hide stuff. It's all right there, right here, a part of her. There isn't anything to hide because there isn't any shame or blame that happens. I don't think there are any hiding places in her room. I remember having hiding places in my room. Chamille's boyfriend has hiding places in his room, and his dad does go through his room when he's not there, but not to clean it, to steal money and spy. Cyle keeps his money at our house now.
>>
>> I don't think that my parents ever went through my room, but the distrust was there anyway. If they had gone through my room and found anything, it wouldn't have surprised me in the least, it would have verified my feelings of lack of trust. If there's any question at all, then there really isn't any trust!
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carnationsgalore

> I love it when my kids give me advice! Sometimes, because they are
> used to thinking for themselves, they come up with great solutions to
> things, things I wouldn't have considered!

I think that my children can come up with suggestions and solutions because they don't have the baggage I do about certain topics.

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-"well, YOU know how teenagers are!" I want to jump up and yell "No,
I don't!"-=-

But don't you? You know that most are dismayed or pissed off, and
yours is not. You know how teenagers can be, all along a spectrum
that most parents don't even know exists.




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[email protected]

I also love my relationship with my teens.  I find it very interesting when my oldest will give me parenting advice or tell me when he feels I have been not very nice to him or to one of his sibblings.  Alot of people I know would feel he was being disrespectful but I feel he is being observent and I love that he feels free to tell me.



Tiffani

  
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jenny Cyphers" <jenstarc4@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 5, 2009 11:44:44 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Teenaged girls and twitter (and unschoolers and food)

 




>>>Instead, they are asking advice and sharing cool things and giving ME advice,
too, sometimes.>>>

I love it when my kids give me advice! Sometimes, because they are used to thinking for themselves, they come up with great solutions to things, things I wouldn't have considered!

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-
I also love my relationship with my teens. I find it very interesting
when my oldest will give me parenting advice or tell me when he feels
I have been not very nice to him or to one of his sibblings. Alot of
people I know would feel he was being disrespectful but I feel he is
being observent and I love that he feels free to tell me.-=-

Mine have all, a time or two, said they thought I had been unfair or
cranky in some situation or another with one of the other kids. When
we were at the Good Vibrations Conference I was impatient with Kirby
once and Holly told me afterwards that I should be nice to him because
he was being really helpful. It was true; she was right.

Holly has also told Keith he wasn't being fair to me sometimes in some
small disagreement or another. She's not afraid to say something like
that to me or Keith because she knows we trust her and she trusts us.

Sandra

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Joanna

--- In [email protected], Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> >>>Instead, they are asking advice and sharing cool things and giving ME advice,
> too, sometimes.>>>
>
> I love it when my kids give me advice! Sometimes, because they are used to thinking for themselves, they come up with great solutions to things, things I wouldn't have considered!
>

Yes!! Me too!! I'm so glad I posted--even though I know you guys are out there living these lives, I needed a shot in the arm! I just LOVE the conversations when my kids give me advice--and yes, sometimes their insights are so fresh they can really help me see a different way. And these conversations happen sometimes piggybacking a conversation where they've asked for my advice, and the give and take is just awesome.

Joanna

carnationsgalore

> I know? Do they really not remember being teenagers themselves?
> Because it seems really fresh and clear in my mind. I still feel
> wildly misunderstood by those in my life as a teen.

I think they do remember being teenagers. Maybe they remember the relationship they had with their parents, figure it's normal behavior, and model their parenting based on what they know. I think many people on this list are actively working to have a better relationship with their children than we had with our parents. I still receive the condescending tone from my mom and big sister. I called them on it once and they were shocked I would even think such a thing. They said they were treating me the same way they had always treated me and they thought it was fine. That spoke volumes to me, really.

Beth M.

musicmom98233

> -=-"well, YOU know how teenagers are!" I want to jump up and yell "No,
> I don't!"-=-
>
> But don't you? You know that most are dismayed or pissed off, and
> yours is not. You know how teenagers can be, all along a spectrum
> that most parents don't even know exists.
>
Well, I know that many teens (maybe most) are dismayed or pissed off, but what I also think is that most parents, because they look at their kids through the "how teenagers are" glasses they were handed by our mainstream culture, see what they expect to see. And, they seem to egg each other on in a negative view of teens to excuse their lack of engagement. I'm around quite a few of these same kids in connection with community activities, and while I think they struggle with a lot of issues my son doesn't have to, my interactions with them are great -- because I'm NOT wearing those "teens are awful" glasses. So, there's the reality of kids being pissed off and 'acting out' (I hate that term) and then the perception of adults who won't take the time to see what they are really like.

I haven't found it useful to say, "you know, my kid's not like that" unless I'm having a real discussion with the parents, which I find rarely happens. But I do like to mention the cool things their own kids did or said while they were with our group.

Sandra Dodd

-=-So, there's the reality of kids being pissed off and 'acting
out' (I hate that term) -=-

This morning someone (a physical therapist who doesn't have children)
said something about teens acting out, and I said "They're REacting."
She was amused and appreciative. We had been talking about what I do
(so she could figure out how to advise me on keeping my leg strong)
and got around to talking about teens, her childhood, my childhood...

I think that will be my response forevermore when someone's
complaining about teens or anyone else and talks about how "badly"
they're acting, or how they're acting out--I'm going to say "They're
REacting." Any of you who want that link should feel free to take it
and use it liberally. :-)

-=- I haven't found it useful to say, "you know, my kid's not like
that" unless I'm having a real discussion with the parents, which I
find rarely happens. -=-

I've said it to strangers. Some people are in the "safety in numbers"
mode, or "misery loves company" mood. I don't want to agree tacitly
to their put-downs of teens. I have strength behind my opinion, now
that I have three kids who didn't go to school and are all
impressively decent people.

Sandra

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Ed Wendell

When I try to tell others what a fantastic 15 year old son we have - how connected we are, etc - they say it is an anomaly - they say "Well you're lucky". I respond, "No, we've worked hard to develop this relationship of mutual respect and we work hard to maintain it."


Lisa W.


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Joanna

Yes--I've also been told that my son is an anomaly. There are lots of ways to prevent cognitive dissonance!

Joanna

--- In [email protected], "Ed Wendell" <ewendell@...> wrote:
>
> When I try to tell others what a fantastic 15 year old son we have - how connected we are, etc - they say it is an anomaly - they say "Well you're lucky". I respond, "No, we've worked hard to develop this relationship of mutual respect and we work hard to maintain it."
>
>
> Lisa W.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Schuyler

That reminds me of a line from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Most of the school has just experienced a vampire attack and the next day they are talking about rival gangs and how it was way cool and not about risk or possible death. Giles, the adult helper, says "People have a tendency to rationalize what they can and forget what they can't." Maybe it is so far out to believe that a teenager would enjoy being with their parent that they rationalize it as an anomaly, or they write it off as a lie on the parent's part. Maybe, too, it becomes another statement of failure as a parent. If you know that someone else has a good relationship with their teenager it argues that the screaming and fighting and sneaking and lying that may exist in your own family comes as much from you as it does from some hormonally driven need to separate from their home-life. And that's gotta be a bitter pill to swallow. Instead of looking with wonder at the possibility that you could
have a good relationship with your child.

Schuyler





________________________________
From: Joanna <ridingmom@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 7 October, 2009 8:16:34
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Teenaged girls and twitter (and unschoolers and food)

Yes--I've also been told that my son is an anomaly. There are lots of ways to prevent cognitive dissonance!

Joanna

--- In [email protected], "Ed Wendell" <ewendell@...> wrote:
>
> When I try to tell others what a fantastic 15 year old son we have - how connected we are, etc - they say it is an anomaly - they say "Well you're lucky". I respond, "No, we've worked hard to develop this relationship of mutual respect and we work hard to maintain it."
>
>
> Lisa W.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



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Jenny Cyphers

>>>"People have a tendency to rationalize what they can and forget what they can't." Maybe it is so far out to believe that a teenager would enjoy being with their parent that they rationalize it as an anomaly, or they write it off as a lie on the parent's part.>>>

That is a very good point! It looks like an anomaly because it isn't the reality of the other parent's experience. So many parents experience the arguing, screaming, fighting, sneaking, and lying as a normal part of life that they really can't fathom it not being so. It flies in the face of their own logical reality. Then to make it all worse, to stop those things from happening, more punishments and rules get put in place and create more of the same. One has to step out of the whole dynamic to change it. One has to recognize that it is a self created dynamic to begin with in order to see that you can change it.




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