Intro and anyone single?
Allyson
Hi, I'm new to the group and thought I'd introduce myself. My name's Ally
and I live in Wisconsin with my 18 month old daughter River. I've decided I
definitely want to homeschool her if I can and would like to possibly do
unschooling but I'm still researching. Since she's so young I feel I have
some time before I really need to decide. I work from home but she's in
daycare 2 1/2 days a week which give me time to catch up on work that I
couldn't do when she was sleeping. I'm a bit worried there will be a time
period betwen now and when she's a bit older and can go off and do things on
her own where my income or sleep will be deprived. I'm curious if there are
any other single parents out there.
Ally
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and I live in Wisconsin with my 18 month old daughter River. I've decided I
definitely want to homeschool her if I can and would like to possibly do
unschooling but I'm still researching. Since she's so young I feel I have
some time before I really need to decide. I work from home but she's in
daycare 2 1/2 days a week which give me time to catch up on work that I
couldn't do when she was sleeping. I'm a bit worried there will be a time
period betwen now and when she's a bit older and can go off and do things on
her own where my income or sleep will be deprived. I'm curious if there are
any other single parents out there.
Ally
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
Hi Ally-
I don't know about single parents online, and I am not single, though I
know couple locally who do homeschool or unschool as single parents. One
does daycare in her home and has little to no help from the dad. The
other works in restaurants and often takes her child to work or works
while the child is with her dad.
There is this group, though, Working Radical Unschoolers. It isn't very
active, but if you post, someone will answer. Moms here work part time
or full time at home or out of the home. Mostly those with older kids,
over 10, but the ones with younger kids may not have time to post.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WRU/
Allyson wrote:
work and unschool, yes. And we have gone through many years with a lower
than adequate income. And sometimes the kids are stuck at home with less
options while I am working, though as they get older our options have
increased.
But I would say that it is all absolutely worth it. My son is 16 and is
attending school (by choice) for the first time. And I am SO GLAD we
have chosen this life, even though at times it has been difficult. He is
not enjoying school at all - the other kids aren't enjoying it, and it
seems like a huge waste of time to him. And he CAN come back home. My
daughter, 12 has never been to school.
I would say that you are probably going to want to stay flexible and
that at different times different things might work for you and your
daughter. Try to find some other unschooling famlies near you, some of
whom might even do daycare in their home (there is one near us who has
in the past).
good luck -
Heather (in NY)
I don't know about single parents online, and I am not single, though I
know couple locally who do homeschool or unschool as single parents. One
does daycare in her home and has little to no help from the dad. The
other works in restaurants and often takes her child to work or works
while the child is with her dad.
There is this group, though, Working Radical Unschoolers. It isn't very
active, but if you post, someone will answer. Moms here work part time
or full time at home or out of the home. Mostly those with older kids,
over 10, but the ones with younger kids may not have time to post.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WRU/
Allyson wrote:
>And sleep deprivation can be a part of the equation at times when you
>
> I work from home but she's in
> daycare 2 1/2 days a week which give me time to catch up on work that I
> couldn't do when she was sleeping. I'm a bit worried there will be a time
> period betwen now and when she's a bit older and can go off and do
> things on
> her own where my income or sleep will be deprived. I'm curious if
> there are
> any other single parents out there.
>
work and unschool, yes. And we have gone through many years with a lower
than adequate income. And sometimes the kids are stuck at home with less
options while I am working, though as they get older our options have
increased.
But I would say that it is all absolutely worth it. My son is 16 and is
attending school (by choice) for the first time. And I am SO GLAD we
have chosen this life, even though at times it has been difficult. He is
not enjoying school at all - the other kids aren't enjoying it, and it
seems like a huge waste of time to him. And he CAN come back home. My
daughter, 12 has never been to school.
I would say that you are probably going to want to stay flexible and
that at different times different things might work for you and your
daughter. Try to find some other unschooling famlies near you, some of
whom might even do daycare in their home (there is one near us who has
in the past).
good luck -
Heather (in NY)
auntannies2002
I was single for the first year I homeschooled, and worked at home for the following 4 years, right up until recently. I unschooled my son who is now 9 yo. By the age of 3 or 4, you child should be able to do things on her own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment for her to learn from, she should be good. I'm not sure what your at home job is like, so I can't really give any further suggestions.
Ann
Ann
--- In [email protected], Allyson <rainbowartistally@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I'm new to the group and thought I'd introduce myself. My name's Ally
> and I live in Wisconsin with my 18 month old daughter River. I've decided I
> definitely want to homeschool her if I can and would like to possibly do
> unschooling but I'm still researching. Since she's so young I feel I have
> some time before I really need to decide. I work from home but she's in
> daycare 2 1/2 days a week which give me time to catch up on work that I
> couldn't do when she was sleeping. I'm a bit worried there will be a time
> period betwen now and when she's a bit older and can go off and do things on
> her own where my income or sleep will be deprived. I'm curious if there are
> any other single parents out there.
>
> Ally
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
bhmjones
> I'm a bit worried there will be a timeIncome and sleep will always take a back seat to your child's well being.
> period betwen now and when she's a bit older and can go off and do things on
> her own where my income or sleep will be deprived. I'm curious if there are
> any other single parents out there.
>
> Ally
Unschooling, natural learning, and "Always Learning" are pretty much synonymous and occur even in spite of forced schooling. I.E., your toddler is learning every waking minute even tho no one is "teaching" her. So you are already unschooling.
Brad
Allyson
I don't agree. If income and sleep become too deprived, no one is going to
be learning anything as a person can't function properly without enough of
either, especially sleep. There won't be much happiness if mommy is always
a zombie and stressed about money. Are you a single parent, Brad? Do you
have personal experience with unschooling as a single parent?
Ally
be learning anything as a person can't function properly without enough of
either, especially sleep. There won't be much happiness if mommy is always
a zombie and stressed about money. Are you a single parent, Brad? Do you
have personal experience with unschooling as a single parent?
Ally
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 3:02 PM, bhmjones <bhmjones@...> wrote:
>
>
> > I'm a bit worried there will be a time
> > period betwen now and when she's a bit older and can go off and do things
> on
> > her own where my income or sleep will be deprived. I'm curious if there
> are
> > any other single parents out there.
> >
> > Ally
>
> Income and sleep will always take a back seat to your child's well being.
>
> Unschooling, natural learning, and "Always Learning" are pretty much
> synonymous and occur even in spite of forced schooling. I.E., your toddler
> is learning every waking minute even tho no one is "teaching" her. So you
> are already unschooling.
>
> Brad
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- By the age of 3 or 4, you child should be able to do things on her
own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment for her
to learn from, she should be good.-=-
This is vague and potentially problematical.
There are things 3 or 4 year olds can do on their own but "quite a
bit" of the time? Or what?
There isn't any jurisdiction I know of that requires a 3 or 4 year old
to be in school. At five, that changes in many places. By seven, I
don't know any jurisdiction that does not require the child to be in
school.
If a single parent wants to unschool she should find how rich her life
could be, not how little she can get by with.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment for her
to learn from, she should be good.-=-
This is vague and potentially problematical.
There are things 3 or 4 year olds can do on their own but "quite a
bit" of the time? Or what?
There isn't any jurisdiction I know of that requires a 3 or 4 year old
to be in school. At five, that changes in many places. By seven, I
don't know any jurisdiction that does not require the child to be in
school.
If a single parent wants to unschool she should find how rich her life
could be, not how little she can get by with.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DaBreeze21
> -=- By the age of 3 or 4, you child should be able to do things on her own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment for her to learn from, she should be good.-=-I wanted to add something here because I have a 3 year old presently :-) My 3 year old probably COULD do a lot more on her own but still pretty much wants ME with her all the time. She does NOT want to be alone ever, even if it is just another adult in the room. She lets us know this very clearly.
>
> This is vague and potentially problematical.
>
> There are things 3 or 4 year olds can do on their own but "quite a
> bit" of the time? Or what?
I don't see this as a problem, I know that she will do more things on her "own" as she is ready and as I have seen her do in the past. I think a statement like the one above doesn't take into account individual differences... many 3 year olds MAY do more things on their own... but maybe many wish they didn't have to also! Also it doesn't take into account that humans don't "progress" in a straight line-- usually taking steps forwards and what seems to be backwards. So a previously "independent" child may go through a period where he/she may need more help, attention, time etc. For instance in my house where we have a newborn, my daughter is needing more reassurance whereas a couple of months ago she would play on her own much more...
Susan
alexandriapalonia
FWIW,
PA and WA are both have eight years old for the low-end of their comulsory attendance laws.
:-)
--Andrea
PA and WA are both have eight years old for the low-end of their comulsory attendance laws.
:-)
--Andrea
> There isn't any jurisdiction I know of that requires a 3 or 4 year old
> to be in school. At five, that changes in many places. By seven, I
> don't know any jurisdiction that does not require the child to be in
> school.
> Sandra
auntannies2002
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you restate the questions?
Ann
Ann
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- By the age of 3 or 4, you child should be able to do things on her
> own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment for her
> to learn from, she should be good.-=-
>
> This is vague and potentially problematical.
>
> There are things 3 or 4 year olds can do on their own but "quite a
> bit" of the time? Or what?
> There isn't any jurisdiction I know of that requires a 3 or 4 year old
> to be in school. At five, that changes in many places. By seven, I
> don't know any jurisdiction that does not require the child to be in
> school.
>
> If a single parent wants to unschool she should find how rich her life
> could be, not how little she can get by with.
>
> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you restate
the questions?-=-
I was requesting clarification/expansion on "By the age of 3 or 4, you
child should be able to do things on her
needing her mom?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the questions?-=-
I was requesting clarification/expansion on "By the age of 3 or 4, you
child should be able to do things on her
> own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment forher
> to learn from, she should be good."What kinds of "things"? "She should be good" meaning what? not
needing her mom?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
>>>I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you restate the questions?>>>This may have been true of Chamille at the age of 3 or 4. She played well alongside of me. Margaux, not at all at that age. I think we have a pretty quality environment to learn from here, but her environment wasn't quality in her mind, unless it directly involved a parent.
> -=- By the age of 3 or 4, you child should be able to do things on her
> own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment for her
> to learn from, she should be good.-=-
>
> This is vague and potentially problematical.
>
> There are things 3 or 4 year olds can do on their own but "quite a
> bit" of the time? Or what?
> If a single parent wants to unschool she should find how rich her life
> could be, not how little she can get by with.
>
That continued to be true up until recently and even now it is still sometimes true, like right now at this very moment, she is playing a video game, but it had to include her dad.
I think it depends on the kid and the parent, and that's why it's problematic to assume that a 3 or 4 your old can do things on their own in a quality environment, would suffice.
The way in which the original post read, it sounded like the parent wanted to be able to unschool and maximize her time while still being able to work. Something always has to give. If it's the child, even for the sake of an income, it makes it more difficult to unschool.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Allyson
I don't think that question really has an answer since each child is
different but what do I know, I only have one 18 month old! I have several
friends with older kids and while one was "good" (listened pretty well to
his mom, didn't have tantrums, etc...) at age three the other was not so
good (destructive, ddin't listen AT ALL, etc...) he's 4 1/2 now and well
behaved.
I didn't mean to open up a can of worms though. I really was just wanting
to hear privately from other single parents who homeschool/unschool but I'm
finding there are not many out there (which is underestandable).
Ally
different but what do I know, I only have one 18 month old! I have several
friends with older kids and while one was "good" (listened pretty well to
his mom, didn't have tantrums, etc...) at age three the other was not so
good (destructive, ddin't listen AT ALL, etc...) he's 4 1/2 now and well
behaved.
I didn't mean to open up a can of worms though. I really was just wanting
to hear privately from other single parents who homeschool/unschool but I'm
finding there are not many out there (which is underestandable).
Ally
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you restate
> the questions?-=-
>
> I was requesting clarification/expansion on "By the age of 3 or 4, you
> child should be able to do things on her
> > own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment for
> her
> > to learn from, she should be good."
>
> What kinds of "things"? "She should be good" meaning what? not
> needing her mom?
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Allyson Moll
Transcription Services
608-577-8851
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
I didn't mean to open up a can of worms though. I really was just
wanting
to hear privately from other single parents who homeschool/unschool
but I'm
finding there are not many out there (which is underestandable).-=-
Even if there were hundreds of them, the purpose of this list is not
to hook up with people on the side, it's to discuss the questions in a
large group of experienced unschoolers so those with similar questions
can see aspects they might never have considered. If people with year
old babies get their advice from other parents with year old babies,
where's the longitudinal value? If unschoolers get their "support"
from other new unschoolers, they will not move as surely or as far as
if they're taking ideas from those who have seen unschooling work and
fail for many years.
Please read more about the group here:
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I didn't mean to open up a can of worms though. I really was just
wanting
to hear privately from other single parents who homeschool/unschool
but I'm
finding there are not many out there (which is underestandable).-=-
Even if there were hundreds of them, the purpose of this list is not
to hook up with people on the side, it's to discuss the questions in a
large group of experienced unschoolers so those with similar questions
can see aspects they might never have considered. If people with year
old babies get their advice from other parents with year old babies,
where's the longitudinal value? If unschoolers get their "support"
from other new unschoolers, they will not move as surely or as far as
if they're taking ideas from those who have seen unschooling work and
fail for many years.
Please read more about the group here:
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Allyson
But I was not looking for other people with year old babies or new
unschoolers. I was hoping to chat with other experienced unschoolers who
are also single. I'm not sure why this has gotten so out of proportion. If
there is no one out thee, than fine. I will continue to read the messages
and participate when I'm able!
unschoolers. I was hoping to chat with other experienced unschoolers who
are also single. I'm not sure why this has gotten so out of proportion. If
there is no one out thee, than fine. I will continue to read the messages
and participate when I'm able!
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-
> I didn't mean to open up a can of worms though. I really was just
> wanting
> to hear privately from other single parents who homeschool/unschool
> but I'm
> finding there are not many out there (which is underestandable).-=-
>
> Even if there were hundreds of them, the purpose of this list is not
> to hook up with people on the side, it's to discuss the questions in a
> large group of experienced unschoolers so those with similar questions
> can see aspects they might never have considered. If people with year
> old babies get their advice from other parents with year old babies,
> where's the longitudinal value? If unschoolers get their "support"
> from other new unschoolers, they will not move as surely or as far as
> if they're taking ideas from those who have seen unschooling work and
> fail for many years.
>
> Please read more about the group here:
> http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
> http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Allyson Moll
Transcription Services
608-577-8851
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm not sure why this has gotten so out of proportion. -=-
It's perfectly proportioned. Someone wrote that young children could
take care of themselves, or somesuch. Clarification was requested but
not provided.
Anyone making statements that she's unwilling to defend will be
disruptive of a discussion of ideas.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's perfectly proportioned. Someone wrote that young children could
take care of themselves, or somesuch. Clarification was requested but
not provided.
Anyone making statements that she's unwilling to defend will be
disruptive of a discussion of ideas.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
>>>But I was not looking for other people with year old babies or newunschoolers. I was hoping to chat with other experienced unschoolers who
are also single. I'm not sure why this has gotten so out of proportion. >>>
Technically, you aren't unschooling. The one single unschooling parent that I knew of, is still unschooling as far as I know, but I'm not sure what she was doing when her child was a baby. I only first heard about her and met her when her child was 6, he's now a teen.
If I were in a similar situation, I would work towards independence, so that by the time my child was legally school age, I would be able to keep that child home.
When my oldest was 4, she went to a preschool/daycare and my husband and I worked full time. The only way that I was able to do this is because she actually wanted to be there. She got up excited to go there every morning, and didn't want to leave her friends in the evening. I hadn't intended on homeschooling at all, let alone unschooling. If she had hated going, I still would have found a way to get her out, even though, at the time we needed both incomes.
She didn't mind leaving either. When she stopped going, it coincided with her best friend not going and all of us moving in together to save money on housing, which allowed me to quit my job since my plan was to enroll her in a co-op public school that required parent involvement.
Unschooling takes a huge time commitment! It doesn't get any less so as they get older, although older kids will let you get work done here and there if you've built up that kind of relationship in which the child isn't needy for the parent's attention.
If an 18 mo old baby feels desperate and needy because mom is working, that neediness won't go away simply because the child gets older. I used to work in daycare centers. They are full of desperately needy children. I'm not trying to be unsympathetic to the need to work and still raise a baby. It'll be about choices each and everyday. Sometimes you may choose to put a child in daycare to work, sometimes you work really hard to find another way, even if, in the meantime you have a baby in daycare. It may help to have short term and long term goals with time frames, so that you reach the seemingly unattainable.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
alexandriapalonia
Both PA and WA don't attach compulsory attendance until 8.
:-)
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2009/section1/table-ope-2.asp
Andrea
:-)
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2009/section1/table-ope-2.asp
Andrea
> There isn't any jurisdiction I know of that requires a 3 or 4 year old
> to be in school. At five, that changes in many places. By seven, I
> don't know any jurisdiction that does not require the child to be in
> school.
> Sandra
jorie6568
Well I have been single for the past 5 years and we have been unschooling for...8 years now. (I think--I lose track sometimes.) I my children are now 18, 16, 15, 8 and 5. (In '07 I lost my daughter Jossilyn to leukemia but she would have been 12 now.) I also have an extra teen in the house--my daughter's friend who is 16 has been with us since Dec.
I just happened to see you post this morning. Things have been busy around here, and computer time can be a precious thing! ;)
If I can be of any help, just let me know.
Marge
I just happened to see you post this morning. Things have been busy around here, and computer time can be a precious thing! ;)
If I can be of any help, just let me know.
Marge
--- In [email protected], Allyson <rainbowartistally@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think that question really has an answer since each child is
> different but what do I know, I only have one 18 month old! I have several
> friends with older kids and while one was "good" (listened pretty well to
> his mom, didn't have tantrums, etc...) at age three the other was not so
> good (destructive, ddin't listen AT ALL, etc...) he's 4 1/2 now and well
> behaved.
> I didn't mean to open up a can of worms though. I really was just wanting
> to hear privately from other single parents who homeschool/unschool but I'm
> finding there are not many out there (which is underestandable).
>
> Ally
>
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > -=-I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you restate
> > the questions?-=-
> >
> > I was requesting clarification/expansion on "By the age of 3 or 4, you
> > child should be able to do things on her
> > > own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment for
> > her
> > > to learn from, she should be good."
> >
> > What kinds of "things"? "She should be good" meaning what? not
> > needing her mom?
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Allyson Moll
> Transcription Services
> 608-577-8851
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 16, 2009, at 3:26 PM, Allyson wrote:
single unschoolers is they probably have less time to be on line.
There is a thread at the Radical Unschoolers Network for single parents:
http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/2184370:Topic:2445
and two people who have signed up at:
http://familyrun.ning.com/group/singleparentrunschoolers
A list might be better since those messages go to the people rather
than the people having to remember to go to the messages ;-) This one
is slow but steadily active:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crazylifeunschoolers
ideas. This is a discussion list. That's the purpose here, its what
people have gathered together to do. (Like in my next email, which is
intended for anyone who wants to think about it, not directed at you
in particular.)
Many lists are social lists where people gather to chit chat and
trade bits of their lives. Some are announcement lists but that's
more obvious when someone joins. I suspect there are other kinds of
lists so that's why it's suggested here, and good advice with any
list, that people read for a while before posting so they get the
flavor of the list and won't get surprised by the responses.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I really was just wantingUndoubtedly true, but a contributing factor to not finding many
> to hear privately from other single parents who homeschool/unschool
> but I'm
> finding there are not many out there (which is underestandable).
single unschoolers is they probably have less time to be on line.
There is a thread at the Radical Unschoolers Network for single parents:
http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/2184370:Topic:2445
and two people who have signed up at:
http://familyrun.ning.com/group/singleparentrunschoolers
A list might be better since those messages go to the people rather
than the people having to remember to go to the messages ;-) This one
is slow but steadily active:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crazylifeunschoolers
> I didn't mean to open up a can of worms though.What you opened up was an opportunity for the list to discuss some
>
ideas. This is a discussion list. That's the purpose here, its what
people have gathered together to do. (Like in my next email, which is
intended for anyone who wants to think about it, not directed at you
in particular.)
Many lists are social lists where people gather to chit chat and
trade bits of their lives. Some are announcement lists but that's
more obvious when someone joins. I suspect there are other kinds of
lists so that's why it's suggested here, and good advice with any
list, that people read for a while before posting so they get the
flavor of the list and won't get surprised by the responses.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
As always, posts are intended for anyone who is interested, not
necessarily directed at the original poster. Ideas sent to the list
are always potential jumping off points for discussion.
kinds of behaviors good and bad. I do notice you but "good" in
quotes, but without another word to substitute, it will be hard to
not think of the child as willfully choosing their behavior.
Easy and spirited might be better term to help a parent see their
child in a more positive light and help the parent respond in more
positive ways. Easy kids certainly make life easier for the
parents! ;-) But kids aren't intended to be convenient. If someone
wants convenience they should get a virtual fish tank for their TV. ;-)
For mindful parenting it's helpful to let go of "listening" or "well
behaved" being the goal. Listening and well behaved are often
euphemisms for obedient. When a child doesn't "listen" it suggests
they're being rude and performing other deliberate anti-social acts.
When in truth they're trying to meet their own needs. If they aren't
listening it's because mom isn't listening to them. Mom isn't meeting
their needs so they're trying to do it themselves. Not listening is
in reality fierce determination.
Tantrums are last ditch attempts to communicate. It means the child
has tried every way they know (though their repertoire may be small
when they're only 3!) to let you know they are in need and they've
broken down in utter frustration. Imagine your husband dragging you
around to every fly fishing store in town and you're trying to let
him know you've reached your fly fishing limit and you're hungry and
your back hurts and you're tired ... and he just keeps saying "Soon.
I'll be done soon. And you can have something to eat at home. The
food here is too expensive." How long before you reached the point
where you just couldn't be polite any more?
Meeting their needs doesn't mean dropping everything and doing
exactly what the child is asking for. It means being responsive and
helping the child. It means being attentive and understanding the
child's limits. One more minute to a child can feel like hours.
"We'll get food at home," doesn't sound practical and frugal to the
child. It sounds like money and what mom has to do is more important
than their needs.
To communicate with kids, to build relationships with them, it's
helpful to see and feel what the world is like through them. When
we're seeing the world in the way we wish or want them to see it
instead of the way they see it, our words and actions often send a
very different message than we intend. And as far as the relationship
goes, a misfelt message is the same as if we actually meant the
message we sent.
Here's a good article on tantrums by Jan Hunt:
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tantrum.html
Joyce
necessarily directed at the original poster. Ideas sent to the list
are always potential jumping off points for discussion.
> while one was "good" (listened pretty well toFor relationship building purposes it's better not to label these
> his mom, didn't have tantrums, etc...) at age three the other was
> not so
> good (destructive, ddin't listen AT ALL, etc...) he's 4 1/2 now and
> well
> behaved.
kinds of behaviors good and bad. I do notice you but "good" in
quotes, but without another word to substitute, it will be hard to
not think of the child as willfully choosing their behavior.
Easy and spirited might be better term to help a parent see their
child in a more positive light and help the parent respond in more
positive ways. Easy kids certainly make life easier for the
parents! ;-) But kids aren't intended to be convenient. If someone
wants convenience they should get a virtual fish tank for their TV. ;-)
For mindful parenting it's helpful to let go of "listening" or "well
behaved" being the goal. Listening and well behaved are often
euphemisms for obedient. When a child doesn't "listen" it suggests
they're being rude and performing other deliberate anti-social acts.
When in truth they're trying to meet their own needs. If they aren't
listening it's because mom isn't listening to them. Mom isn't meeting
their needs so they're trying to do it themselves. Not listening is
in reality fierce determination.
Tantrums are last ditch attempts to communicate. It means the child
has tried every way they know (though their repertoire may be small
when they're only 3!) to let you know they are in need and they've
broken down in utter frustration. Imagine your husband dragging you
around to every fly fishing store in town and you're trying to let
him know you've reached your fly fishing limit and you're hungry and
your back hurts and you're tired ... and he just keeps saying "Soon.
I'll be done soon. And you can have something to eat at home. The
food here is too expensive." How long before you reached the point
where you just couldn't be polite any more?
Meeting their needs doesn't mean dropping everything and doing
exactly what the child is asking for. It means being responsive and
helping the child. It means being attentive and understanding the
child's limits. One more minute to a child can feel like hours.
"We'll get food at home," doesn't sound practical and frugal to the
child. It sounds like money and what mom has to do is more important
than their needs.
To communicate with kids, to build relationships with them, it's
helpful to see and feel what the world is like through them. When
we're seeing the world in the way we wish or want them to see it
instead of the way they see it, our words and actions often send a
very different message than we intend. And as far as the relationship
goes, a misfelt message is the same as if we actually meant the
message we sent.
Here's a good article on tantrums by Jan Hunt:
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tantrum.html
Joyce
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 13, 2009, at 11:00 PM, Allyson wrote:
kids will mean being sleep deprived. It will be lots easier to
function if a mom accepts that catching what sleep she can when she
can is how her life is in the moment.
Though the "always" in your wording suggest a touch of martyrdom as
though the only choices were to stuff down your needs in deference to
children's needs or respond to your needs regardless of the kids'
needs. Stuffing needs down isn't healthy for a person. Responding to
them because "Mommy has needs" at the expense of kids isn't healthy
for relationships.
Better is accepting the reality of now for now, so when you get more
than the little life normally allows it feels like a bonus rather
than a constant state of deprivation with moments of sufficiency.
But that doesn't mean someone can't find clever ways to get more. Or
ask on a list like this one :-) Neediness can make it especially hard
to think outside the box so it can help to ask people who are already
outside the box for some ideas :-)
Joyce
> There won't be much happiness if mommy is alwaysIt's helpful to be realistic about what is possible. Sometimes having
> a zombie and stressed about money.
>
kids will mean being sleep deprived. It will be lots easier to
function if a mom accepts that catching what sleep she can when she
can is how her life is in the moment.
Though the "always" in your wording suggest a touch of martyrdom as
though the only choices were to stuff down your needs in deference to
children's needs or respond to your needs regardless of the kids'
needs. Stuffing needs down isn't healthy for a person. Responding to
them because "Mommy has needs" at the expense of kids isn't healthy
for relationships.
Better is accepting the reality of now for now, so when you get more
than the little life normally allows it feels like a bonus rather
than a constant state of deprivation with moments of sufficiency.
But that doesn't mean someone can't find clever ways to get more. Or
ask on a list like this one :-) Neediness can make it especially hard
to think outside the box so it can help to ask people who are already
outside the box for some ideas :-)
Joyce
auntannies2002
Yes, 3 and 4 year olds should be doing thing independently for periods of time varying from child to child. If the child were in daycare she certainly would be doing things for significant periods of time with no adult interaction. This mother has to work. Not working is probably not an option. "Things" as in educational toys and activities. "She should be good" was probably a bad choice of terms. "She should be set" would be a better choice I suppose. I'm not suggestion the child be locked in a room by herself for 8 hours a day for heavens sakes.
Ann
Ann
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you restate
> the questions?-=-
>
> I was requesting clarification/expansion on "By the age of 3 or 4, you
> child should be able to do things on her
> > own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment for
> her
> > to learn from, she should be good."
>
> What kinds of "things"? "She should be good" meaning what? not
> needing her mom?
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Ann
I NEVER suggested young children could take care of themselves. I suggested that they could be taught some independence.
And yes, I agree with Ally that this conversation has been blown out of proportion.
And yes, I agree with Ally that this conversation has been blown out of proportion.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I'm not sure why this has gotten so out of proportion. -=-
>
> It's perfectly proportioned. Someone wrote that young children could
> take care of themselves, or somesuch. Clarification was requested but
> not provided.
>
> Anyone making statements that she's unwilling to defend will be
> disruptive of a discussion of ideas.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Robin Bentley
>The unschooling single mom I know isn't on this list, but has two boys
>
>>>> But I was not looking for other people with year old babies or new
> unschoolers. I was hoping to chat with other experienced
> unschoolers who
> are also single. I'm not sure why this has gotten so out of
> proportion. >>>
>
(one 16, one 7). She has lived on social assistance, and what her
parents & ex-husband provided, since her eldest was a year old. She
struggled mightily sometimes (maybe most of the time) to make ends
meet, but she was home with her boys and that meant everything to her.
She has one of the most welcoming, interesting, and full-of-noisy
peace homes I know. Now that her kids are older and she has a
reasonable relationship with her ex, she's pursuing work in publishing
(her passion). She's done plenty of volunteer work to fill out her
resume and she starts an internship soon.
I know she jumped through many governmental hoops, stood in line for
free groceries, bought things from thrift stores or accepted gifts of
clothing, food, and money with grace. I don't think her kids would
ever have considered themselves "poor" though technically they were.
Her kids are her priority, always, and she decided to make their lives
the sweetest they could be.
Robin B.
bhmjones
I am a stay at home father and do not want to even contemplate how I would handle it if I had no spouse to help care for my child.
I feel as if my post to you came across as pompous and I desire to apologize for that, please accept my apology.
But what I meant to convey is that we only have two choices in the situation of being the only one available to care for our child: 1.) either sleep and leave them to their own devices, or 2.) stay awake while they are awake. In my situation, I have to force myself to stay awake so that my child will be, what I consider, safe. That means my sleep takes a back seat to my child's welfare.
I do agree with you that when one becomes sleep deprived and or stressed, well being suffers. But make no mistake, learning occurs even in those times, but it might not be the things you desire your child to learn.
Brad Jones
________________________________
From: Allyson <rainbowartistally@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:00:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Intro and anyone single?
I don't agree. If income and sleep become too deprived, no one is going to
be learning anything as a person can't function properly without enough of
either, especially sleep. There won't be much happiness if mommy is always
a zombie and stressed about money. Are you a single parent, Brad? Do you
have personal experience with unschooling as a single parent?
Ally
I feel as if my post to you came across as pompous and I desire to apologize for that, please accept my apology.
But what I meant to convey is that we only have two choices in the situation of being the only one available to care for our child: 1.) either sleep and leave them to their own devices, or 2.) stay awake while they are awake. In my situation, I have to force myself to stay awake so that my child will be, what I consider, safe. That means my sleep takes a back seat to my child's welfare.
I do agree with you that when one becomes sleep deprived and or stressed, well being suffers. But make no mistake, learning occurs even in those times, but it might not be the things you desire your child to learn.
Brad Jones
________________________________
From: Allyson <rainbowartistally@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:00:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Intro and anyone single?
I don't agree. If income and sleep become too deprived, no one is going to
be learning anything as a person can't function properly without enough of
either, especially sleep. There won't be much happiness if mommy is always
a zombie and stressed about money. Are you a single parent, Brad? Do you
have personal experience with unschooling as a single parent?
Ally
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 3:02 PM, bhmjones <bhmjones@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
> > I'm a bit worried there will be a time
> > period betwen now and when she's a bit older and can go off and do things
> on
> > her own where my income or sleep will be deprived. I'm curious if there
> are
> > any other single parents out there.
> >
> > Ally
>
> Income and sleep will always take a back seat to your child's well being.
>
> Unschooling, natural learning, and "Always Learning" are pretty much
> synonymous and occur even in spite of forced schooling. I.E., your toddler
> is learning every waking minute even tho no one is "teaching" her. So you
> are already unschooling.
>
> Brad
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't agree. If income and sleep become too deprived, no one is
going to
be learning anything as a person can't function properly without
enough of
either, especially sleep.-=-
I must have missed a quick turn in the road. How is having a job
going to prevent sleep deprivation? I'll go back and look to see if I
can find where this came from, but meanwhile here are some ideas about
the justification of how happy the mom needs to be:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/mama
-=-There won't be much happiness if mommy is always
a zombie and stressed about money. Are you a single parent, Brad? Do you
have personal experience with unschooling as a single parent?-=-
This list exists to discuss unschooling. No one list member gets to
customize or limit the purpose of the list. Be nice and consider all
the advice you get without being critical of it. Take what you can
use and don't be hateful about the rest. I'm writing this as the
owner of the list, and I'm quite serious.
Divorced people shouldn't get all their relationship advice from other
divorced people.
Single unschoolers shouldn't get all their parenting advice from other
single unschoolers.
I've never been a single unschooler, but I could have been a divorced
unschooler had I not been careful with my marriage. I have discussed
details of unschooling lives with other unschoolers for about eighteen
years. Some of them were divorced or unmarried. Some of them avoided
divorce because of discussions on lists like this. Some, past the
point of that, figured out ways to justify paying more attention to
their children rather than falling into the mainstream justifications
for paying less attention to them.
Don't think we don't know those other arguments about "no one is going
to be learning if..." the mother isn't taking care of herself first.
The mother isn't going to be learning anything if she settles for
those platitudes. Here are lots of them if you like that kind of
message better than the honest attempts to shake you into another kind
of thinking that can be beneficial for your children longterm.
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
going to
be learning anything as a person can't function properly without
enough of
either, especially sleep.-=-
I must have missed a quick turn in the road. How is having a job
going to prevent sleep deprivation? I'll go back and look to see if I
can find where this came from, but meanwhile here are some ideas about
the justification of how happy the mom needs to be:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/mama
-=-There won't be much happiness if mommy is always
a zombie and stressed about money. Are you a single parent, Brad? Do you
have personal experience with unschooling as a single parent?-=-
This list exists to discuss unschooling. No one list member gets to
customize or limit the purpose of the list. Be nice and consider all
the advice you get without being critical of it. Take what you can
use and don't be hateful about the rest. I'm writing this as the
owner of the list, and I'm quite serious.
Divorced people shouldn't get all their relationship advice from other
divorced people.
Single unschoolers shouldn't get all their parenting advice from other
single unschoolers.
I've never been a single unschooler, but I could have been a divorced
unschooler had I not been careful with my marriage. I have discussed
details of unschooling lives with other unschoolers for about eighteen
years. Some of them were divorced or unmarried. Some of them avoided
divorce because of discussions on lists like this. Some, past the
point of that, figured out ways to justify paying more attention to
their children rather than falling into the mainstream justifications
for paying less attention to them.
Don't think we don't know those other arguments about "no one is going
to be learning if..." the mother isn't taking care of herself first.
The mother isn't going to be learning anything if she settles for
those platitudes. Here are lots of them if you like that kind of
message better than the honest attempts to shake you into another kind
of thinking that can be beneficial for your children longterm.
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
emiLy Q.
I have an almost six year old and a two year old and even with my husband
and I both working at home, I still find it easier to work while they sleep.
If they are awake, they want to be with me. My husband is with them about
half of every day, but even if I go into another room with a closed door,
they usually come in to see me several times an hour. This is just how it
is. Hopefully your work allows for this, and you can work around your
child. Maybe you can set up a computer alongside yours and you and your
child can work side by side. Or if your work is physical (some of mine
includes packing orders), your child may be able to help a bit, or just get
in the way but at least you can get it done while they are awake so you have
more time to sleep. My kids are interested in actually helping me for about
5-10 minutes, they will tape a few boxes together or gather some products.
My six year old likes to read the packing slip and gather the products into
a pile, which is great. Of course this is way slower than if I did it, and
it is frustrating sometimes, but I choose this over having them in school or
daycare.
If I were a single parent, I would most likely keep up with the part time
daycare schedule for as long as possible. Maybe you can meet other
homeschoolers and trade off playdates so you have a few hours a week to
catch up on sleep or work or housework.
I am never caught up on anything. :) My parents are coming to visit this
Sunday, though, so I better get back to cleaning!!
-emiLy
and I both working at home, I still find it easier to work while they sleep.
If they are awake, they want to be with me. My husband is with them about
half of every day, but even if I go into another room with a closed door,
they usually come in to see me several times an hour. This is just how it
is. Hopefully your work allows for this, and you can work around your
child. Maybe you can set up a computer alongside yours and you and your
child can work side by side. Or if your work is physical (some of mine
includes packing orders), your child may be able to help a bit, or just get
in the way but at least you can get it done while they are awake so you have
more time to sleep. My kids are interested in actually helping me for about
5-10 minutes, they will tape a few boxes together or gather some products.
My six year old likes to read the packing slip and gather the products into
a pile, which is great. Of course this is way slower than if I did it, and
it is frustrating sometimes, but I choose this over having them in school or
daycare.
If I were a single parent, I would most likely keep up with the part time
daycare schedule for as long as possible. Maybe you can meet other
homeschoolers and trade off playdates so you have a few hours a week to
catch up on sleep or work or housework.
I am never caught up on anything. :) My parents are coming to visit this
Sunday, though, so I better get back to cleaning!!
-emiLy
On 9/17/09 8:35 AM, "auntannies2002" <auntannies2002@...> wrote:
> Yes, 3 and 4 year olds should be doing thing independently for periods of time
> varying from child to child. If the child were in daycare she certainly would
> be doing things for significant periods of time with no adult interaction.
> This mother has to work. Not working is probably not an option. "Things" as
> in educational toys and activities. "She should be good" was probably a bad
> choice of terms. "She should be set" would be a better choice I suppose.
> I'm not suggestion the child be locked in a room by herself for 8 hours a day
> for heavens sakes.
>
> Ann
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>
>> -=-I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you restate
>> the questions?-=-
>>
>> I was requesting clarification/expansion on "By the age of 3 or 4, you
>> child should be able to do things on her
>>> own quite a bit, and as long as you have a quality environment for
>> her
>>> to learn from, she should be good."
>>
>> What kinds of "things"? "She should be good" meaning what? not
>> needing her mom?
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
-emiLy, mom to Delia (5.5) & Henry (2)
http://www.TheECstore.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes, 3 and 4 year olds should be doing thing independently for
periods of time varying from child to child.-=-
That repeats the words, but doesn't clarify at all.
Putting their own shoes on? Finding toys and playing by themselves?
Wiping their own butts? Getting their own food?
This doesn't need an answer, it needs to be a reminder that vague
overreaching statements are pretty worthless. They sound like
important pronouncements, but in the context of discussing
unschooling, they're not helpful.
-=-If the child were in daycare she certainly would be doing things
for significant periods of time with no adult interaction.-=-
And if the child were in an orphanage, she would be doing even MORE
things without adult interaction, and also building up a big case of
the inability to attach to humans in the future and probably a little
case of lack of growth hormone stimulation.
We're not talking about what the least a mom can get by with might
be. We're talking about what's the most a mom might be able to do for
her children.
-= This mother has to work. Not working is probably not an option. -=-
Probably not?
-=-"Things" as in educational toys and activities. "She should be
good" was probably a bad choice of terms.-=-
Not probably.
-=-"She should be set" would be a better choice I suppose.-=-
She should be set to take care of herself? To find or to engage,
alone, in educational toys and activities?
-=I'm not suggestion the child be locked in a room by herself for 8
hours a day for heavens sakes.-=-
Okay, but four hours? Two hours? Twenty five minutes?
Not everyone can unschool. We can't vote or petition the government
to let a mom unschool under special circumstances. Unschooling is
going to need to be providing as much attention and input as school-
life would be doing, and each family individually needs to really
understand and be involved to the point that they can understand and
justify and defend their unschooling under the laws where they are, or
they need to hide out and be prepared to meet the possible
consequences of being brought in for questioning by the county child
protective services or whatever agency deals with homeschoolers where
they are.
EVERY single child can go to government funded school, I think, in
every English-speaking jurisdiction, when compulsory school-age
comes. Before then, there are pre-schools and day-cares. If a mother
has to work and that's not (or as the poster put, "probably not") an
option, then unschooling might not be an option, nor any kind of
homeschooling.
You know what IS an option? Put the kids up for adoption. Relinquish
parental rights. Nobody is MAKING anyone keep their kids. If you
have never considered putting children up for adoption you haven't
really chosen to keep them. By thinking about whether adoption might
be a good option, then (and only then) can one really choose to keep
the kids. Having chosen to keep them, now what might be good for
them? I would rather have my kids in school than to expect them, at
three or four, or ten or twelve, to take care of themselves for a few
hours.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
periods of time varying from child to child.-=-
That repeats the words, but doesn't clarify at all.
Putting their own shoes on? Finding toys and playing by themselves?
Wiping their own butts? Getting their own food?
This doesn't need an answer, it needs to be a reminder that vague
overreaching statements are pretty worthless. They sound like
important pronouncements, but in the context of discussing
unschooling, they're not helpful.
-=-If the child were in daycare she certainly would be doing things
for significant periods of time with no adult interaction.-=-
And if the child were in an orphanage, she would be doing even MORE
things without adult interaction, and also building up a big case of
the inability to attach to humans in the future and probably a little
case of lack of growth hormone stimulation.
We're not talking about what the least a mom can get by with might
be. We're talking about what's the most a mom might be able to do for
her children.
-= This mother has to work. Not working is probably not an option. -=-
Probably not?
-=-"Things" as in educational toys and activities. "She should be
good" was probably a bad choice of terms.-=-
Not probably.
-=-"She should be set" would be a better choice I suppose.-=-
She should be set to take care of herself? To find or to engage,
alone, in educational toys and activities?
-=I'm not suggestion the child be locked in a room by herself for 8
hours a day for heavens sakes.-=-
Okay, but four hours? Two hours? Twenty five minutes?
Not everyone can unschool. We can't vote or petition the government
to let a mom unschool under special circumstances. Unschooling is
going to need to be providing as much attention and input as school-
life would be doing, and each family individually needs to really
understand and be involved to the point that they can understand and
justify and defend their unschooling under the laws where they are, or
they need to hide out and be prepared to meet the possible
consequences of being brought in for questioning by the county child
protective services or whatever agency deals with homeschoolers where
they are.
EVERY single child can go to government funded school, I think, in
every English-speaking jurisdiction, when compulsory school-age
comes. Before then, there are pre-schools and day-cares. If a mother
has to work and that's not (or as the poster put, "probably not") an
option, then unschooling might not be an option, nor any kind of
homeschooling.
You know what IS an option? Put the kids up for adoption. Relinquish
parental rights. Nobody is MAKING anyone keep their kids. If you
have never considered putting children up for adoption you haven't
really chosen to keep them. By thinking about whether adoption might
be a good option, then (and only then) can one really choose to keep
the kids. Having chosen to keep them, now what might be good for
them? I would rather have my kids in school than to expect them, at
three or four, or ten or twelve, to take care of themselves for a few
hours.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- NEVER suggested young children could take care of themselves. I
suggested that they could be taught some independence.-=-
This is very clearly marked as an unschooling discussion list for
those committed to unschooling. It's not a list about teaching
children *anything.*
Independence develops naturally from confidence and safety and
caring. It's not taught, to three year olds.
-=-And yes, I agree with Ally that this conversation has been blown
out of proportion-=-
Out of proportion to what? Proportion has to have a comparison. In
proportion to the glorious potential of unschooling, a suggestion that
a three year old can take care of herself is HUGELY out of proportion
from the beginning.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
suggested that they could be taught some independence.-=-
This is very clearly marked as an unschooling discussion list for
those committed to unschooling. It's not a list about teaching
children *anything.*
Independence develops naturally from confidence and safety and
caring. It's not taught, to three year olds.
-=-And yes, I agree with Ally that this conversation has been blown
out of proportion-=-
Out of proportion to what? Proportion has to have a comparison. In
proportion to the glorious potential of unschooling, a suggestion that
a three year old can take care of herself is HUGELY out of proportion
from the beginning.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
>>>Yes, 3 and 4 year olds should be doing thing independently for periods of time varying from child to child. If the child were in daycare she certainly would be doing things for significant periods of time with no adult interaction. >>>Should be? Really? Some kids might be able to while others really can't or won't. Daycare isn't optimal for raising healthy connected children, in a large part, because they do everything independent of their parents.
>>>This mother has to work. Not working is probably not an option.>>>Even if this is true, acknowledging that daycare isn't the best place for a child to be, will help her get to a place where she doesn't have to use that option. If you can't see that there is a better option, you might never seek it out.
>>> "Things" as in educational toys and activities.>>>Do they have to be educational toys and activities? What about helping a child do the things they want to do? If it happens to be "educational" then that's what it is. Kids will learn from non educational things too. Kids learn from everything around them.
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