ellinghamsandwich

I recently listened to this interview with Quinn Eaker (Barb Lundgren's adult son) & am very bothered by his comments about trusting in a child's capability in their explorations.

Here is the link (I believe this is about an hour long):

http://www.co-creatornetwork.com/guests/Eaker_Quinn/_bio.htm

What I am upset by is his (& apparently Barb's) comments on "trusting" in children's "capibility". Even in times where the child (in their most precious natural curiosity) is clearly in a potentially dangerous situation. Quinn's examples are in the clip above but one of them is how he was on a horizontal tree that hung out over the Grand Canyon where there was a 100 foot drop. His mom decided (while in utter fear) to walk away, let him be & trusted in his capability as he himself what he was capable of.

I do not agree with this. He was a young boy, not an adult. I feel a parent's 'role' (Don't get me wrong. I do not mean that in a superior sense.) is to protect our children from a potential life threatening situation. To me, this "trust" that many Unschoolers believe in in regards to these kinds of situations (where the child is young and/or does not know how to swim yet or whatever-to not be within arms reach or below to catch them or something as they climb a tree more than say 20 feet...) is pure negligence & just downright foolishness.

I know of a mom who said she "trusts" her 22 month old daughter (who does NOT know how to swim) who was sitting on a ledge (beside the sidewalk in a park) to not fall into the river below. there was at least a 2.5 foot drop to the water line & the water was at least 2 feet deep with large stones at the bottom. This little girl did not have a life jacket or floaties on. I myself would NEVER allow my child or any child in my care who doesn't know how to swim to do such a thing. And I would not leave my child, "trusting" that they will be safe, trusting in my trust in them as not to "manifest" the child to be in harm's way. That to me is pure ludacris. THAT is different than my trusting my child in what they choose to do. That is misuse of the whole concept in trusting our children's choices & interests.

Did I miss something here? I think not. I don't think I misunderstood the point he was trying to make & convince the listeners of..If anything he sounded insane about this. Yeah, he survived but...well. I still think its pure moronic thinking. Any thoughts on this sort of thought in Unschoolers? I don't feel THIS is what Unschooling is about. Nuts.

Lis in Oregon <3

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<< What I am upset by is his (& apparently Barb's) comments on "trusting"
in children's "capibility". Even in times where the child (in their most
precious natural curiosity) is clearly in a potentially dangerous situation.
Quinn's examples are in the clip above but one of them is how he was on a
horizontal tree that hung out over the Grand Canyon where there was a 100
foot drop. His mom decided (while in utter fear) to walk away, let him be &
trusted in his capability as he himself what he was capable of. >>>>


Lis, what I am seeing here is that you have heard some stuff that is
extremely challenging to your world view and the paradigm of "good parent".
This is causing you to react strongly with "how can this be?!?" feeling. I'm
glad you have come here to talk about it, and ask questions, because that
very discomfort that you are feeling is a sign that you are close to some
kind of paradigm shift.

Every child has different capabilities. Some have, and will always have,
much greater balance and awareness of their physical space than others. Plus
little kids tend to have a heavy head, but a low center of gravity when
sitting (thinking of the child sitting on the edge of the water).

One thing of which we can be pretty much certain is that parents calling out
things like a generalized "be careful" or "don't fall", or worse making
negative predictions like "if you do that you will fall" are distracting to
concentration at best, and strongly suggestive at worst. Most parents do not
want to accept that it is their own palpable fear and visible hovering that
causes their child to fall or fail.

My experience has been that most of the time, Jayn will be more accurately
conservative about her own abilities or balance than I would have expected
if I had been a conventional parent. Her ability to see and notice danger
was manifest much younger than conventional parenting ideas would have led
me to believe also. Unschooling showed me how to maintain an assumption of
competence and an assumption of good judgement on her part, that continues
into all kinds of areas as Jayn ages.

That does not mean I ignore my own fear or discomfort however. I have talked
in the past about Jayn wanting to do "gymnastics" by balancing on her belly
on the rail of our second floor balcony when she was about 5. It was too
nerve wracking for me, so I suggested that she could do the same thing
downstairs on a similar handrail that is at ground level, and I could even
put down some padding. Jayn was willing, I could stand to spot her if she
needed it, and she never so much as wobbled. She agreed not to scare me by
hanging over the balcony, and I agreed to come downstairs to watch her hang
on the low rail anytime.

Another similar thing, that has nothing to do with Jayn's ability but my
comfort, is going to play outside the front gate of our building. I have
undertaken to drop whatever I am doing and accompany her and her friends
outside whenever they want to play there - which is rare and brief. This is
because of my fears to do with strangers noticing unattended children (esp.
during school hours) than any concern about Jayn's ability to keep herself
safe. All they are doing is looking at the flowers or following squirrels.
Sometimes they like to talk to folk walking dogs, so I like to be there for
that too. My neighbor does not have these same concerns; she doesn't worry
about her two going outside since she knows they won't go away. It is a rare
case of me being the conservative parent!

Sandra kept something that I wrote about Jayn and safety on her site.
http://sandradodd.com/yes.html Scroll down towards the bottom the "Yes" page
for my contribution, and a further comment.

I guess the point about much of this is that children who are accepted and
trusted are less likely to want to express bravado or rebellion by
attempting dangerous things against their own better judgement, and are also
still in tune with their own judgment. They are more likely to feel free to
say, "No that's too scary for me" if pushed by other kids, for example.

Toddler Jayn fell into our pool once too. Longest 4 seconds of my life. She
turned right instead of left and just walked off over the edge. She went
down then bobbed right up thanks to her layers of woolly clothing. I was
able to fish her right out before she sank again, and was lucky that I
didn't have to jump in. She coughed once and then cried. I took her upstairs
to get dry and warm right away. Maybe the parent with the child sitting on
the ledge was confident that she could get her baby out immediately in the
unlikely event that the little one fell in.


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Ren Allen

~~ Maybe the parent with the child sitting on
> the ledge was confident that she could get her baby out immediately in the unlikely event that the little one fell in.~~


I often ask myself "what is the worse thing that can happen?" and if I can live with that, then I try to breathe and let it be. Letting the kids ride in the back of my truck when we aren't on a trafficked road has flipped some of my friends out. I was letting them sit on the tailgate as we traveled between parking lots at ARGH (an unschooling gathering at Roan Mt. TN) which took all of 40 seconds and involved me driving so slow they could have fallen off and been fine.

I'll drive them in the back around campgrounds or places where I feel comfortable doing so, because they love doing it and ask often. It was funny too, because one of my unschooling friends was REALLY uncomfortable seeing us pull up with my kids in the back of the truck at a recent gathering. I had let them move to the back after stopping to pay the park fee. I explained but she was still very uncomfortable and I just shrugged at that point. Not my problem.

Later, we all were going up from the swimming area to a campsite where some out-of-town unschoolers were staying and ALL of the kids wanted a ride in the back of the truck. I had a truck bed full of happy, screaming unschoolers and it was all fine.

I think we react to things without a lot of thinking sometimes, because we've been taught it's "dangerous" or "irresponsible". Yes, bad things can happen but we don't even give a second thought to driving in vehicles, which is extremely dangerous but totally acceptable!

Being alive is inherently dangerous. I think allowing children to take risk is a really important part of learning. I don't think we should ignore our need for safety, but there are ways to actively work with our children rather than being the big NO all the time. Not that "no" isn't useful at times too!

The big issue for us recently was about a pack of boys wanting to drift down the river we visit every week. They drift down over rapids and rocks, well beyond our hearing and sight. It's very uncomfortable at times but we talked about our discomfort and the kids really felt very capable and went on their way. One of us could have gone with them, one of us could have walked the river bank etc... there were other ways to meet both needs. In the end, there's a certain amount of "testing" oneself against nature and the world that humans get a lot of growth and confidence out of...just read about the walkabouts the aboriginal people used to take.

There are ways our children might do their own "walkabout" in modern times. But it takes going against the grain of what conventional parents might allow a child. It takes not only trust, but working through challenges together and analyzing risk while examining where our own fears stem from. Is it useful fear or a knee-jerk reaction?

Jalen sprained his foot really bad this week, running down our stairs. Risk is everywhere. I had to examine my fears carefully as each of my children became interested in knives and whittling. Sharp knives can really hurt. In the end, I decided that cutting oneself is often part of the risk that I can live with. Even a bad cut can be stitched. So we talked about safe ways to use the knives and over all the years they've had very small nicks but no bad cuts. Trevor got his first pocketknife around age 6 or 7. Children used to be trusted with driving tractors and sharp tools and such....they haven't gotten less capable of these things, they've become less trusted as our society becomes more and more fearful about children and their ability.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

>
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
>

Sandra Dodd

-= do not agree with this. He was a young boy, not an adult. I feel a
parent's 'role' (Don't get me wrong. I do not mean that in a superior
sense.) is to protect our children from a potential life threatening
situation. -=-

I agree. I don't like to see kids risking their lives foolishly.

-=-To me, this "trust" that many Unschoolers believe in in regards to
these kinds of situations (where the child is young and/or does not
know how to swim yet or whatever-to not be within arms reach or below
to catch them or something as they climb a tree more than say 20
feet...) is pure negligence & just downright foolishness.
-=-

I don't like Unschooler with a capital "U" much. I know there was some
discussion of whether it would be helpful, but I don't think it is.
It would turn into more jargon and rules. Unschooling doesn't give
anyone special powers or freedoms.

-=- myself would NEVER allow my child or any child in my care who
doesn't know how to swim to do such a thing. And I would not leave my
child, "trusting" that they will be safe, trusting in my trust in them
as not to "manifest" the child to be in harm's way. -=-

The unschooling discussions I will defend are Joyce's site, mine, the
UnschoolingDiscussion list (kind of a ghost town, except for the
archives, so kind of a glorious museum) and this list. None of those
places has encouraged negligence or any kind of magic-juju trust in
capabilities, just living thoughtful, mindful human lives.

Sometimes people come onto this list just long enough to promote one
of their own money-making plans, but they don't hang around to help
other unschoolers. It has happened more than once and more than
twice. It's unfortunate that some people who can't hold their own in
a discussion like this or who won't even try then got out to promote
themselves as experts worthy of cash inflow.

The unschoolers I respect are those who are willing to describe what
they do and answer questions about it, for free, just to help other
people.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-. Yes, bad things can happen but we don't even give a second
thought to driving in vehicles, which is extremely dangerous but
totally acceptable!-=-

Being in the back of a pickup isn't nearly as dangerous as being on a
bicycle, or a motorcycle.

-=-Children used to be trusted with driving tractors and sharp tools
and such....they haven't gotten less capable of these things, they've
become less trusted as our society becomes more and more fearful about
children and their ability.-=-

Right. Many of the things i did as a kid are illegal now, but I think
it's largely because of insurance companies. Some people can see the
bigger picture and see what factors are money-driven and which are
about love and learning and nuturance.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ellinghamsandwich

Thanks to all who have replied to this so far. I really appreciate it.

I must admit I feel mighty nauseated (literally) even imagining one of my children out on a limb over the freakin' Grand Canyon or some such scenario. I know it could happen & that this sort of thing happens all the time...especially with brave bold children. This is a wonderful trait to have. I would do my best to get the kid down ASAP also while remaining as cool calm & collected as I could in the moment.

I suppose you guys are right about our culture & how we view childhood exploration. I remember doing a LOT when by myself outside (& in)that most would consider negligent on a parent's part. I have asked my mother if she was behind me or nearby during _____________ & she doesn't remember, unfortunately. I DO know I was alone after the age of about 6 or 7 in the house. I also walked to & fro friends houses & to schools in big cities (Baltimore, Manhattan) in early elementary school & intermediate. When I was a kid I did not wear a helmet when I rode my big wheel (which I loved to do donuts in on the street & while pulling the E-brake) or while ice or roller skating. In fact, I even used to walk across the lake (when it was frozen, that is) I lived on during my high school years...it was 9 miles long & a mile wide. I did this at night at least once that I can remember. I rode in cars without seat belts as a young one. etc. etc. etc. & I am alive. Maybe when its our 'time' to go, its our time. Maybe we truly have no control over most things...well obviously, we truly don't. But if I can help my kids not being injured or killed I'm SO THERE.

My son has gone under water twice unintentionally on my part. I lost my hold on him...it was terrifying but mama bear mode kicked in & I got him quickly. Thankfully he didn't swallow any water either. He didn't even cry either time. He has gone under in practicing exactly that & he loves it. So maybe this trust is also hand in hand with our child's age & competency. Some of our kids have amazing equalibrium & focus, & some are more challenged or even uninterested in taking more daring ventures.

I actually would also let my son crawl or walk across the road if it weren't a busy one. In fact I HAVE. I made sure no one was coming as well before I let him get to the area cars drive on. I didn't stop him though but if I had to temporarily keep him from continuing I would, of course.

I have been struggling with easing up on my daughter in regards to her bike helmet. My thoughts have been that I don't want her hurting her brain should she take a hard fall on her head...of course. Not one of us would want our child hurt. I don't think that isn't trusting her capability. It is just pure precaution, isn't it? I'm not sure if I should just let her ride her bike & scooter w/out her helmet should she choose not to wear it or request that she wears it...what are your thoughts? I sometimes will ask her how she is going to keep herself safe outside when she goes & plays (we live in a resort where there are a ton of cars in the parking lot coming & going as well as strangers galore) & I feel better when we discuss that. I don't do this every time & in fact I haven't asked that in a few weeks. She roams all over the place around here. I trust her capability to do so.

I know that accidents can happen anytime, anywhere. I have heard that riding in cars or on bikes, say, is more risky than climbing a tree or riding in the back of a pick up truck on a dirt road (man, that makes me miss living in the country SO MUCH!!!). I was once on a ride in the back of a monster truck at a county faire & I felt so scared for my daughter & I. On one hand I knew that the driver of the truck was skilled at doing donuts in this thing (I didn't know we were going to do donuts in a monster truck!)despite that he was smoking a cigarette the whole ride...

My daughter likes to climb up on our car (its an Isuzu trooper)& stand on the roof. She did this a few times in her old school's parking lot. You know how mellow Waldorf schools are about such feats...well you should have seen the looks on the parents teachers & kids' faces as I allowed my daughter to just BE. One part of me was thrilled for her (& my self for being cool with her venture) & the other part was a tad concerned over what other's thought of my mothering her. I let her stay up there happily playing but after a while I started this demanding panicky talk insisting she get down. I now know that that was NOT what I was feeling...it was feeding into the mainstream thought that my daughter was in danger (which she might have been...just as a meteor could have dropped from the sky & landed on our heads or a cougar leaping out of the woods nearby)& going with that energy.

I think besides the worry over my kids being hurt factor, I also worry over what others' will think & that to the law, say, a lot of this 'trust' we have as parents who live this way would be considered negligence & oh I can't think of the other term I'm wanting to put here.

This IS truly a shift for me as far as certain situations go for my children. In some "areas" I'm cool with my daughter (she is almost 7) & son (he is 20 months) going 'into' alone & in others I'm not there yet. I'm sure this shift will take time. I agree that most children's agility is so much more able (& willing!!!) than the majority of adults. So really, I need to chill. Easier said than done. This is all a part of letting go & just LIVING life...going about it how I believe it should be lived. A part of deschooling myself.

This is a great discussion. One that is probably one of the top issues with those who want to unschool or are newer to accepting all parts in the basis of unschooling.

:)

p.s.: I love the freely given support so many of you give to us who still struggle in some areas...I am sure I'm not alone in being dissed by some who have become so famous they do not make the time or select from certain parents or better yet, charge (& might I add, a pretty penny) for their expertise on unschooling. Or they play games & pick & choose who they want participating on their lists. This is very sad. I have met many a parent online who can relate to this.

Ok...onto playing with my son. :O)


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -= do not agree with this. He was a young boy, not an adult. I feel a
> parent's 'role' (Don't get me wrong. I do not mean that in a superior
> sense.) is to protect our children from a potential life threatening
> situation. -=-
>
> I agree. I don't like to see kids risking their lives foolishly.
>
> -=-To me, this "trust" that many Unschoolers believe in in regards to
> these kinds of situations (where the child is young and/or does not
> know how to swim yet or whatever-to not be within arms reach or below
> to catch them or something as they climb a tree more than say 20
> feet...) is pure negligence & just downright foolishness.
> -=-
>
> I don't like Unschooler with a capital "U" much. I know there was some
> discussion of whether it would be helpful, but I don't think it is.
> It would turn into more jargon and rules. Unschooling doesn't give
> anyone special powers or freedoms.
>
> -=- myself would NEVER allow my child or any child in my care who
> doesn't know how to swim to do such a thing. And I would not leave my
> child, "trusting" that they will be safe, trusting in my trust in them
> as not to "manifest" the child to be in harm's way. -=-
>
> The unschooling discussions I will defend are Joyce's site, mine, the
> UnschoolingDiscussion list (kind of a ghost town, except for the
> archives, so kind of a glorious museum) and this list. None of those
> places has encouraged negligence or any kind of magic-juju trust in
> capabilities, just living thoughtful, mindful human lives.
>
> Sometimes people come onto this list just long enough to promote one
> of their own money-making plans, but they don't hang around to help
> other unschoolers. It has happened more than once and more than
> twice. It's unfortunate that some people who can't hold their own in
> a discussion like this or who won't even try then got out to promote
> themselves as experts worthy of cash inflow.
>
> The unschoolers I respect are those who are willing to describe what
> they do and answer questions about it, for free, just to help other
> people.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Not one of us would want our child hurt. I don't think that isn't
trusting her capability. It is just pure precaution, isn't it? I'm not
sure if I should just let her ride her bike & scooter w/out her helmet
should she choose not to wear it or request that she wears it...what
are your thoughts? -=-

I think you're not sorting through your own thoughts before you post
sometimes. <g>

IF precaution is foremost, why let her go out of the house at all?
Why not have her wear her helmet in the house? Why not put all the
mattresses on the floor so no one can fall of the bed? Should all
walls be padded? All dishes should be plastic, not glass that can
break and kill someone. Stoves are dangerous....

Everyone draws the line somewhere. What's important is not what other
people think about what you're doing, but that you're thinking about
it yourself and are clear on what you can handle, on your own
awareness of your child's capabilities (is she a great athlete, or
kind of klutzy?)---make it about principles more than about rules.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon D. Burton

I read this thread with interest, and believe I have a unique perspective on this one. I am a newish unschooler who lived and worked for nine months at the Grand Canyon. My husband lived and hiked extensively there for 12 years.

I can state with certainty that there are definite dangers in walking away and trusting in a child's capability to hang on a tree growing horizontally at or near the canyon rim...

The rim is, in many places, heavy with slippery scree. Trees may seem to be a lot more firmly anchored than they are. In many places, rescue if a slip occurred would be very difficult, perhaps requiring a helicopter or another method that would then endanger other lives.

The Grand Canyon is not permanent and unchanging. The rim is constantly eroding, and earthquakes are not rare, there. great boulders sometimes fall, without warning...

There are warning signs about these dangers, and rangers will warn or ticket people who violate the law regarding use of the canyon.

Aside from the risk to the child, the tree, already growing in a difficult environment, could easily have been broken or harmed by the stunt...

Death can and is sometimes part of a national park experience, and often, it is just this type of unknowing carelessness that leads to it. There were deaths with very similar circumstances at both the Grand Canyon and Yellowstone during the time we lived there.

Unschooling is no protection at all from natural dangers. Common sense and awareness of the environment's inherent risks are still needed.

I would not allow even my very agile child to take the risk of hanging from a tree at the rim, nor would I allow my children to put their hands into a Yellowstone hot spring to test its heat...

In these cases, the limits are clearly imposed by the environment, and I would be giving them the benefit of my experience where theirs might be lacking. I'd do it for any of you, too...because that is, after all, what friends are for.

Shan (who survived a few foolish natural mishaps, and knows whatof she speaks!)

Sandra Dodd

-=-Unschooling is no protection at all from natural dangers. -=-

Nor protection from legal problems, nor the disapproval of other people.

When Holly had the problems on the pudding-wrestling night, she asked
me to tell people specifically because she said it did seem that some
people thought that if a child's parents didn't mind something, that
that made it okay across the board.

It's not okay for a parent to let a child climb on a tree at a
national monument, it seems (or at least not old trees on edges of
great cliffs; not sure of the official federal statute <bwg>).

For those who have joined the list since Holly's legal adventures, the
first part is here:
http://sandradodd.com/pudding
We're all redeemed now, and I do still intend to write about the night
we went to be rehabilitated. I have notes, somewhere...

Book first, then conference, then catch up on every little thing I
have ever said I would do, ever! Easy. <g>

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marina DeLuca-Howard

>>>>-=-Unschooling is no protection at all from natural dangers. -=-
>>>Nor protection from legal problems, nor the disapproval of other people
Regardless, of other people I always allowed calculated risks--rather than
crazy risks. "Crazy risks" where the benefit is small, and the risk of
serious injury/death great, were where I planned to draw the line and the
law looks askance at parents who allow death defying stunts. Worked out
perfectly--lots of freedom, almost no risk of death if the stunt failed lol

Luckily none of my three boys every risked their lives, so I was always able
to say yes to their requests. My middle son, Martin, climbed monkey bars
six feet off the ground at eleven months of age(with a mat underneath). I
remember nonchalantly drinking my coffee and being elbowed out of the way by
another mother who stood beneath him--horrified at my "carelessness" She
blushed when he had no balance issue; seemed to slip but recovered without
missing a beat. Martin also expressed annoyance at this strange woman's arms
reaching out for him, and perhaps his "slip" was in reaction to
her "help". Her son was two weeks older it turned out and completely
incapable of such a feat (bwg), though since he'd never had an opportunity
to try and she was just guessing.

Of course, I was willing to throw the coffee down and catch him, but I knew
falling wouldn't be a big hazard. The coffee was also a prop since Marty
objected to my standing arms outstretched *interfering*, which of course
created a more dangerous situation, as he was wriggling away from me, rather
than enjoying his climb.

His older brother had fallen off a climber into sand at a year and a half of
age--so I knew that adults offer distractions which can cause accidents. It
was an extraordinary climb as the gap between the bars were taller than he
was. He climbed it successfully at least twenty times before he fell. I
remember nursing him on the spot, while a man berated me for having it
backward: one and a half year olds are too old to nurse, but too young to
climb. Rowan had a small bruise, but recovered after two seconds on my lap
and showed the man up by climbing it successfully two more times before
agreeing to go to the swings. He was the only child under two and a half on
that climber!

While trees were okay to climb I cannot imagine allowing my boys to be over
a canyon, although they have fallen from seven feet with no serious injury.
Accidents happen. Climbing is not about trust, but about probability and
risks. As an adult I am responsible, and I have the life experience to know
that a two year old who uses sharp paring knives might get hurt, but under
supervision I can intervene. The Grand Canyon drop wouldn't qualify as
something I could offer first aid to fix and so I have to say this seems
shortsighted on the part of the parent. My values include freedom to
explore, and a providing a safe nurturing environment.
Marina
--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- My middle son, Martin, climbed monkey bars
six feet off the ground at eleven months of age(with a mat
underneath). I
remember nonchalantly drinking my coffee and being elbowed out of the
way by
another mother who stood beneath him--horrified at my "carelessness"-=-

Hey, MY middle kid, Martin, was up on top of a platform that had two
slides coming down, when he was maybe 15 months old. He had climbed
up himself, and not for the first time. He was sitting there, on
that large padded platform, waiting for one of the dozen or so bigger
kids in our group to take him down the slide, when they had a chance,
when they got up there. He wasn't walking around.

Meanwhile, I'm sitting a little way away with Kirby, who was three and
a more nervous kind of kid.

An older woman said "WHOSE little BABY is up on that slide?" The
other moms looked and kinda giggled and smiled while I got up and went
over to stand by Marty until someone came to let him slide in front of
her.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marina DeLuca-Howard

Well, Martin is a warrior name and my kid always seemed "fearless" to other
parents. Too funny about the namesake thing! Maybe it's an onamastics
thing? Probably just having the right mom for the right kid!

When I organized The Federation of Teaching Parents Conference a couple of
years ago Martin was my poster boy. There was a picture of him on the flyer
holding a frog, wearing a life jacket, blond hair dishevelled. He has
amazing reflexes and caught his first frog before his third birthday. He is
also left-handed and seems good with judging spaces. I really love his
spirit and sense of adventure.

He wasn't walking when he climbed the monkey bars.

At age four my Martin climbed a street light in our local park. I remember
he was the only kid who got to the top, shimmying up using his whole body.
The frustrated student park attendant said, "There is no rule against it,
but I think that's because no kid has ever climbed more than halfway up
before. But he makes it look so easy now all the other kids are trying to
do it".

I was pretty surprised he could shimmy up to the top of the lamp post, even
though he had pulled off lots of incredible climbs <g> But I knew he would
be fine if he could get up thre as I had seen him get down "fireman" poles
in playgrounds that were that high off the ground for a couple of years; so
it seemed natural he would work on shimmying up a lamp post.

Marina


>
>



--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~An older woman said "WHOSE little BABY is up on that slide?" The
other moms looked and kinda giggled and smiled while I got up and went
over to stand by Marty until someone came to let him slide in front of
her.~~

I remember when Sierra was littlish (around 4) and she was at the top of this very tall slide. She was coming down almost standing up and this Mom yelled at her "sit DOWN". I was horrified, as was Sierra. She froze and looked over at me like "what in the hell do I DO?"

I calmly smiled and said "it's ok honey, go right ahead" and turned to the woman and said "she's fine, I'm right here".

This woman had two little girls who were pristinely dressed and yelled at to stay clean the entire time we were there. She also went and told on us when our kids were up in a big oak tree (a tree they climbed weekly). When nobody came out from the rec center to yell at us she left the park in a huff.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=- He is
also left-handed and seems good with judging spaces. -=-

Mine too! <g>

http://sandradodd.com/marty
http://sandradodd.com/photo/bardolfargent
http://sandradodd.com/photo/sca/Bardolfbaby.gif

That last one is him sitting on a feast table when he was little, and
well-balanced, and coordinated, and well-dressed. I made the middle-
link clothes, but not the ones in the bottom photo. His SCA name is
Bardolf.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~ The Grand Canyon is not permanent and unchanging. The rim is constantly eroding, and earthquakes are not rare, there. great boulders sometimes fall, without warning... ~~

I'm pretty sure most people know this. The mother in question was not encouraging a child to do the activity. It was about dealing with it once it happened.


~~ I would not allow even my very agile child to take the risk of hanging from a tree at the rim, nor would I allow my children to put their hands into a Yellowstone hot spring to test its heat... ~~

YOu can "not allow" but that won't stop things from happening. How do you deal with a child who wants to do something you "won't allow"? Not allowing is sometimes more dangerous than walking away.

~~I would be giving them the benefit of my experience where theirs might be lacking. I'd do it for any of you, too...because that is, after all, what friends are for.~~

Experience can only come from actual experience. You can share, but that doesn't equal their agreement with your take on the experience. Yes, parents should share information and discuss strategies for safety. In the end, you only gain experience directly...otherwise it's simply information that may or may not have any relevance for the other person.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

[email protected]

I am now seeing the issue w these situation. My son just turned 2 and I always try my best not to ' freak out ' about situations my wonderful son gets him self into but when another adult ' freaks out ' about what he's doing he bursts out in tears (ex. No serious situations... amall ones I wouldn't expect people getting upset about) he and my daughter are in my view USUALLY, 99 % of time and I trust his ability of treating others rt (I will watch ' w o him knowing ' )
Sent from my BlackBerry� wireless handheld

-----Original Message-----
From: "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 02:59:50
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: On trusting a child's "capability"...So-called trust.


~~An older woman said "WHOSE little BABY is up on that slide?" The
other moms looked and kinda giggled and smiled while I got up and went
over to stand by Marty until someone came to let him slide in front of
her.~~

I remember when Sierra was littlish (around 4) and she was at the top of this very tall slide. She was coming down almost standing up and this Mom yelled at her "sit DOWN". I was horrified, as was Sierra. She froze and looked over at me like "what in the hell do I DO?"

I calmly smiled and said "it's ok honey, go right ahead" and turned to the woman and said "she's fine, I'm right here".

This woman had two little girls who were pristinely dressed and yelled at to stay clean the entire time we were there. She also went and told on us when our kids were up in a big oak tree (a tree they climbed weekly). When nobody came out from the rec center to yell at us she left the park in a huff.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

riasplace3

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> An older woman said "WHOSE little BABY is up on that slide?"

My younger daughter climbed way up a tree at her third or fourth birthday party....I heard her saying, "Hey, Momma, look!" and looked around and couldn't see her, finally located her about 40-50 feet up in a pine tree. ; ) At 12 she still regularly disappears into trees. : )

Ria

Sandra Dodd

I wrote this a couple of days ago, and it seems useful to share here,
as to the concept of the limits of freedom.


Freedom

A discussion came up in which someone asked about "True Freedom" as
though it were a concept central to unschooling. I'd never had the
phrase used, and discussion ensued.

It's just musing and analysis of the ideas of freedom, which
unschoolers do tend toward in lots of things, but in ALL things?
Maybe, maybe not.

I think what some families call "freedom," I call "choices." In the
discussion referred to above, I wrote:

Just like getting lots of gifts instead of one big one, if you say
"sure," "okay," "yes" to lots of requests for watching a movie late or
having cake for breakfast or them playing another half hour on the
swings and you can just read a book in the car nearby, then they get
TONS of yes, and permission, and approval. If you throw your hands up
and say "Whatever," that's a disturbing moment of mom seeming not to
care instead of mom seeming the provider of an assortment of joyous
approvals.

The bold face print in the quote below came from something Danielle
Conger wrote. My responses are indented. It's at the link below.

After reading Sandra's words, I realize that my kids come to me, not
because I say they have to, but because they use me as a sounding board.

Maybe they're coming to you as a font of "yes!"

That's a cool thing, if every time they want something loving and
positive, they run to mom, huh?

Asking permission becomes a way of gauging their own sense of right
and wrong because they know that I will explain a no and help them
come up with better alternatives.

My big guys still ask little things, like "Can I have this last soda?"
What that means is "had you dibsed it?" or "Is this perhaps NOT the
last soda, so I'll feel better about taking it?"

If I say "Sure," they're drinking a soda I gave them, and I bet it
tastes better than one they snagged knowing they had "the right" to
drink it, but they wanted the blessing.

http://SandraDodd.com/freedom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela Shaw

~~ I would not allow even my very agile child to take the risk of hanging
from a tree at the rim, nor would I allow my children to put their hands
into a Yellowstone hot spring to test its heat... ~~

YOu can "not allow" but that won't stop things from happening. How do you
deal with a child who wants to do something you "won't allow"? Not allowing
is sometimes more dangerous than walking away.

There are signs at Yellowstone that say not to touch the hot springs. My 62
year old very sensible mother went and on an impulse decided to touch the
water. The water was so clear that her fingers went into it before she
realized she had touched it. It was hard to tell where the surface actually
was and so her fingers went in further than she anticipated. It WAS hot,
she said. She was fine. ;) Probably not a different experience than a
child would have (although I'm not talking about most 2 year olds here but
older children) if they gave into the impulse to touch the hot springs
despite warnings from their parents or signs. Shades of gray in the danger
zone, I think.



Angela



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-= How do you
deal with a child who wants to do something you "won't allow"? Not
allowing
is sometimes more dangerous than walking away.-=-

You say no.
If you say no and he continues, then you know and he knows, God knows
and witnesses know, that you didn't say "Sure, sweetie!" or that you
didn't just walk off without taking any notice.

It could mean the difference between going home (with or without your
child) or in worst cases having your child removed, or going to jail
for criminal neglect or something.

Then there's a difference between saying, "That tree could break,
please come back," in an informative and concerned way, and screaming
"GET DOWN FROM THERE or I will WHIP YOUR BUTT!" The kid might go
farther out on the tree to avoid that.

Alarming or threatening a child is probably more dangerous in those
moments than finding a calm way to lure him toward you.

None of those are for a mom to say "Whatever; he'll live or he'll die."


Another thing from the book this week:

Respect



Respect was discussed in the section on "being," earlier in the book,
but in light of "freedom," respect can take another whirl. If I "give
my children freedom" in a situation, it's because I had some leeway or
rights myself. I cannot "give them freedom" that I don't have.

Some unschoolers become confused on that, and they begin to frolic in
the "freedom" that they are pretty sure some stranger online granted
them, and that unschoolers have inalienably from God, bypassing all
forms of government and the limitations of wallboard. And so if an
unschooling family is up at 3:00 a.m. playing Guitar Hero, they seem
mystified that the neighbors have called the landlord.

I'm exaggerating. I hope I'm exaggerating.

If a storeowner says not to touch the crystal figures, a parent cannot
"give her child the freedom" to touch them anyway. She could buy one
and take it out of the store and let her kid touch the heck out of it,
but she can't tell a store owner, "You don't understand; we're
unschoolers."

So although I might seem to be wandering aimlessly here, freedom
should involve a respect for others, and a respect for logic. And a
family might not feel they "respect the law," but the laws still do
apply to them, no matter how twinkly-eyed they have become in their
newfound "freedom."

So if someone is selling you "True Freedom" (or snake oil, or the
elixir of the fountain of life), have respect for yourself and your
family and take a pass on it.

Meanwhile, parents with a realistic and considered awareness of what
their own freedoms are within the laws of the apartment building,
housing development, city, county/parish/township, state/province or
nation are free to share some of those with their children. We let
Holly choose carpet once, but we couldn't have legally required her to
pay for it, as she was only eight or nine at the time. We have
surprised waiters in many restaurants by turning to our children
questioningly when the waiter asks the adults "Would you like to see
the dessert menu?" They're even more surprised when the kids say, "No
thanks," or "I'm full," while making friendly eye contact with the
waiter.

http://SandraDodd.com/respect



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ellinghamsandwich

What do you guys think of the legalities in regards to children playing at playgrounds? ie. signs posted by our playground here say ages 2-5 in one area (shorter stuff) & then 5+ for the other. I let my son go in both areas. But technically I COULD get scolded for allowing my son to play in either area as he is under 2. Pfff! I personally would allow my kids to play on any equipment they want to and spot them while acting like I'm not. ;o) I guess I'd play dumb if I got in "trouble" by the resort or a cop or something. I also will allow my children to put rocks or woodchips, say, on the slides as long as there are no other kids or where there are kids (or parents) who don't mind them on there. I get annoyed when parents don't care for this sort of thing but I'm learning to be respectful while living my rebel lifestyle. :O)

A lot of parents do not allow their babies or toddlers, even preschoolers, into the hot tubs here, either for fear of what so many doctors advise against it, I'm sure...The sign posted says they (kids under 12) can go in as long as they are accomopanied by an adult (who has been 'cleared' by their physician to go in such hot water...LOL).

It makes me so sad to witness when the children so want to go in them! I went during pregnancy with my kids AND they still go now. In fact, my daughter finally began to go under water in the one hot tub here where she would not do it before. My kids love the warmth (as does mama!!!).

This brings to mind an incident that occurred when I was 4yo in Mexico while my parents & I were living there. There was a little pony ride shindig off the side of the road. I believe the road was a 4 lane highway (not a highway like ours but still, a major thruway). For some reason the man operating this didn't lead me around the little circle (which was NOT enclosed completely)by the rope or didn't have a good enough grip. My parents trusted me to ride this pony. I remember feeling so confident. Well my dog decided to jump out one of the windows on our VW bus & chase the pony. The pony ran onto the road in the opposition direction. I remember thinking OMG this pony is taking me away from my mom. I remember envisioning the pony running past house after house further and further away from her. I thought, "I need to let go". So I did. I allowed my body to fall to the right & I landed on the asphalt which resulted in a very scratched up bloody right cheek and a fractured leg. The whole scene that followed was chaotic. My mom was hysterical. A lady cop with blue eyeshadow pulled us over wondering why my dad was speeding. My mom showed me to her and I think she escorted us to the hospital. Quite humorous. But all in all, I handled it just fine on my own & I think my parents trust in me on the pony was awesome...or maybe the guy WAS holding the rope and they thought I was safe...but still, I felt on top of the world thruout the whole experience. I even rode a bigger pony with my cast on. :O) What spirit. I still have it.

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- My middle son, Martin, climbed monkey bars
> six feet off the ground at eleven months of age(with a mat
> underneath). I
> remember nonchalantly drinking my coffee and being elbowed out of the
> way by
> another mother who stood beneath him--horrified at my "carelessness"-=-
>
> Hey, MY middle kid, Martin, was up on top of a platform that had two
> slides coming down, when he was maybe 15 months old. He had climbed
> up himself, and not for the first time. He was sitting there, on
> that large padded platform, waiting for one of the dozen or so bigger
> kids in our group to take him down the slide, when they had a chance,
> when they got up there. He wasn't walking around.
>
> Meanwhile, I'm sitting a little way away with Kirby, who was three and
> a more nervous kind of kid.
>
> An older woman said "WHOSE little BABY is up on that slide?" The
> other moms looked and kinda giggled and smiled while I got up and went
> over to stand by Marty until someone came to let him slide in front of
> her.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

ellinghamsandwich

My daughter does the same thing when another adult scolds her. Yesterday at my son's physical (he is having dental surgery done soon and will be going under so they need to "OK" him fit to do so).

I was getting frustrated with my daughter's attitude (jeesh I wonder where she got it from...sigh) & I must have told her to "zip it". She came back at me with a "no, YOU zip it" and an angry hurt face. The doctor said to her with a gasp and then a firm "You don't talk to your mom that way! That's NOT ok!". My daughter burst into tears and hid the rest of the appt. I told her I loved her when the doc was telling me not to let her get away with that and how HER kids would NOT get away with that. WHATever I thought... then you should have seen the look on this dr's & a nurse's face when I refused vax's for my son during this appointment. LOL "Are you sure......" YES, I'm sure I said. Pfff. My daughter and I talked on the way home in the car about what a moron and authoratative mom/dr. this woman was.
Lis


--- In [email protected], tbozek77@... wrote:
>
> I am now seeing the issue w these situation. My son just turned 2 and I always try my best not to ' freak out ' about situations my wonderful son gets him self into but when another adult ' freaks out ' about what he's doing he bursts out in tears (ex. No serious situations... amall ones I wouldn't expect people getting upset about) he and my daughter are in my view USUALLY, 99 % of time and I trust his ability of treating others rt (I will watch ' w o him knowing ' )
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
>
> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 02:59:50
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: On trusting a child's "capability"...So-called trust.
>
>
> ~~An older woman said "WHOSE little BABY is up on that slide?" The
> other moms looked and kinda giggled and smiled while I got up and went
> over to stand by Marty until someone came to let him slide in front of
> her.~~
>
> I remember when Sierra was littlish (around 4) and she was at the top of this very tall slide. She was coming down almost standing up and this Mom yelled at her "sit DOWN". I was horrified, as was Sierra. She froze and looked over at me like "what in the hell do I DO?"
>
> I calmly smiled and said "it's ok honey, go right ahead" and turned to the woman and said "she's fine, I'm right here".
>
> This woman had two little girls who were pristinely dressed and yelled at to stay clean the entire time we were there. She also went and told on us when our kids were up in a big oak tree (a tree they climbed weekly). When nobody came out from the rec center to yell at us she left the park in a huff.
>
> Ren
> radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -= How do you
> deal with a child who wants to do something you "won't allow"? Not
> allowing
> is sometimes more dangerous than walking away.-=-
>

I have found that my children trust me in many ways that are unexpected. My daughter really pushed me into radical unschooling because she was/is very sensitive to power issues. I needed to get it right with her. As we have come into rightness, she now happily asks my opinion about all sorts of things, as does my son. And it goes both ways--I ask their opinions all the time as well.

If I say that I really don't think something is a good idea, they trust that. If I've missed something and they have a piece of info for me that changes my opinion, they feel free to share it and sometimes it does. There's lots of give and take, and they trust that my opinions aren't arbitrary. We don't have issues with "won't allow" anymore--we just live together and help each other out.

And there are beginning to be more times that my son (14) helps me out in a similar way. We were given some irresistible fluffy cinnamon bread that we were sharing, and my son knew that if I kept eating I would get a stomach ache, so he gently reminded me. When I kept indulging, he tried to take it away from me--which showed me exactly how kids feel when food is withheld or taken from them--not good. So we talked about that, and then I did stop eating. It was a great moment, and I had the unexpected opportunity of feeling "taken care of" by my child.

Joanna

Jenny C

>
>>> What do you guys think of the legalities in regards to children
playing at playgrounds? ie. signs posted by our playground here say ages
2-5 in one area (shorter stuff) & then 5+ for the other. I let my son go
in both areas. But technically I COULD get scolded for allowing my son
to play in either area as he is under 2.>>>

I think most of those rule posting are so that little ones don't get
hurt by larger kids and so larger kids can play large without hurting
little ones. I think as long as everyone at the playground is playing
in the way that they want to and not getting in each other's way, then
it's fine to ignore posted age limit signs. If there are really rowdy
big kids in the little kid area and the little kids can't explore the
playground because of it, I'd ask the big kids to move on out for a bit
or mellow out. If there are little kids interfering in older kids
wanting to explore the way big kids do, I'd find a way to coax them out
of the way and into the little kid area. Mostly though, I prefer multi
age playgrounds and helping kids work around each other.

Marina DeLuca-Howard

>>That's a cool thing, if every time they want something loving and
>>positive, they run to mom, huh?

I don't put boundries on food. If we keep it in the house they can eat it
at will, but my kids will inexplicably politely ask me for ice cream, or
even a glass of milk. Often I go to serve it to them only to have them tell
me not to bother and offer me a bowl of nuts or ice cream or whatever it
is. I was often puzzled by this, but now in this context it seems really
interesting. Although I always ask before I eat the last of anything.
Maybe they are just checking to make sure the sour cream can be used for
corn chips and is not integral to a dish I am creating for a meal?

I remember once my sil told my son he couldn't have ice cream. He asked why
not and she said she didn't want him to have all that sugar. Then she
paused for a minute and decided that wasn't a good reason in her opinion and
all the kids had ice cream. She looked at me as I took Martin aside and
told him at other people's houses it was rude to ask "why not"? At home I
always supply a reason--usually it is because there is not enough for
everyone and I would rather we wait or check in to make sure it is fine.
This is from previous experience when someone has finished the milk or
yoghurt and another somebody has been reduced to tears because they didn't
get any.

>>> What do you guys think of the legalities in regards to children
playing at playgrounds? ie. signs posted by our playground here say ages
2-5 in one area (shorter stuff) & then 5+ for the other. I let my son go
in both areas. But technically I COULD get scolded for allowing my son
to play in either area as he is under 2.>>>

My impression is those numbers are for insurance purposes. Many times a
sign goes up after a mixed use playground has been around because whatever
Insurance company the school or city park uses has given them a higher rate.

Marina

Marina

2009/8/13 Jenny C <jenstarc4@...>

>
>
>
> >
> I think most of those rule posting are so that little ones don't get
> hurt by larger kids and so larger kids can play large without hurting
> little ones. I think as long as everyone at the playground is playing
> in the way that they want to and not getting in each other's way, then
> it's fine to ignore posted age limit signs. If there are really rowdy
> big kids in the little kid area and the little kids can't explore the
> playground because of it, I'd ask the big kids to move on out for a bit
> or mellow out. If there are little kids interfering in older kids
> wanting to explore the way big kids do, I'd find a way to coax them out
> of the way and into the little kid area. Mostly though, I prefer multi
> age playgrounds and helping kids work around each other.
>
>
>



--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon D. Burton

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> ~~ The Grand Canyon is not permanent and unchanging. The rim is constantly eroding, and earthquakes are not rare, there. great boulders sometimes fall, without warning... ~~
>
> I'm pretty sure most people know this. The mother in question was not encouraging a child to do the activity. It was about dealing with it once it happened.
>
I've seen evidence that says that some visitors don't know - or, at least, never thought about how that might affect them, personally.
>
> ~~ I would not allow even my very agile child to take the risk of hanging from a tree at the rim, nor would I allow my children to put their hands into a Yellowstone hot spring to test its heat... ~~
>
> YOu can "not allow" but that won't stop things from happening. How do you deal with a child who wants to do something you "won't allow"? Not allowing is sometimes more dangerous than walking away.
>

Doh! You're right! Not allowing isn't the answer. Awareness is. Parents who bring children to the edge of canyons would do very well to consider potentially life-threatening conditions ahead of time, and to prepare their children for them.

I don't know if that happened in this case, and I haven't yet had a boy the age of the boy in the original post. But humans are equipped with a survival instinct, and knowing the full -ahem- gravity of the situation might have easily led to a child who chose a tree a few feet further from the edge to challenge himself with, and a mother who didn't need to walk away in terror.

I was reacting, in part, to my own near miss at falling into the canyon, during a picnic lunch with Jim in the first days of our relationship. I'd stretched prone on a warm ,spacious rock along the rim, and, when I rolled to get up, I rolled toward the edge (my sense of direction is unreliable). I felt the emptiness beside me in time, and caught myself. But it is likely I would have died, if I hadn't. It was quite a drop.

> ~~I would be giving them the benefit of my experience where theirs might be lacking. I'd do it for any of you, too...because that is, after all, what friends are for.~~
>
> Experience can only come from actual experience. You can share, but that doesn't equal their agreement with your take on the experience. Yes, parents should share information and discuss strategies for safety. In the end, you only gain experience directly...otherwise it's simply information that may or may not have any relevance for the other person.
>

True. We talk about the canyon, and Yellowstone, frequently, read about them, watch documentaries. We do not gloss over the dangers in our extolling of their beauty. We walk along busy two-lane mountain highways with narrow shoulders to trailheads leading past eroded gorges and boulder-strewn paths. We've played in and around waterfalls, canoed, and camped in the wilderness. We've crossed busy city streets. We've talked, throughout, about what is safe, scary, or outright dangerous.

Hopefully, we're building awareness and the ability to judge their capabilities against the potential for risk. They aren't quite there, yet, and that is why I stay nearby when they try new and possibly risky feats, to help them navigate - or, if absolutely necessary, to remove them from harm's way.

Thanks, Ren, for pointing out the flaws in my "don't allow" stance. My children *are* still young enough that I can physically deter them, if need be. But they won't be for long, and it's good to eradicate that kind of thinking *before* we get to the place where I can't.

I've got a lot to think about...

Shan
> Ren


> radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>

Shannon D. Burton

--- In [email protected], "Angela Shaw" <game-enthusiast@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> There are signs at Yellowstone that say not to touch the hot springs. My 62
> year old very sensible mother went and on an impulse decided to touch the
> water. The water was so clear that her fingers went into it before she
> realized she had touched it. It was hard to tell where the surface actually
> was and so her fingers went in further than she anticipated. It WAS hot,
> she said. She was fine. ;) Probably not a different experience than a
> child would have (although I'm not talking about most 2 year olds here but
> older children) if they gave into the impulse to touch the hot springs
> despite warnings from their parents or signs. Shades of gray in the danger
> zone, I think.
>

Children and adults, and even dogs, have died from falling into geothermal features. People have been burned by sticking their hands into the water. More than just a few freak cases. Some pools are cool; others are near boiling. there is a great deal of geothermal shifting that makes the water features very unpredictable, as well as brilliantly colored...and if a child bends to look or touch, their heavier head can easily put them off-balance. just stepping off the boardwalks can be deadly, because the earth beside it is often not nearly so firm as it seems, and boiling water could lie just beneath.

Your mother is fortunate, and I am glad she wasn't harmed. She aseasily could have been, had the feature been hotter. There really isn't any way for a visitor to know (but, seriously, when the water is steaming, that should be a clue. Most of us wouldn't stick our hands in a steaming kettle on the stove!)

A park employee and experienced hiker died during the time we worked there, and her friends were severely burned. They tried to jump a small stream, fell in - and the creek was carrying runoff from geothermals.

The signs are there as a result of a law suit placed by the father of an 8 yo boy who fell into a hot spring, and was not recovered.

You might be interested in a book written by Yellowstone historian Lee Whittlesley: "Death in Yellowstone', which details the many ways in which the park perhaps holds hidden dangers.
>
>
Shan
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was getting frustrated with my daughter's attitude (jeesh I
wonder where she got it from...sigh) & I must have told her to "zip
it". She came back at me with a "no, YOU zip it" and an angry hurt
face. The doctor said to her with a gasp and then a firm "You don't
talk to your mom that way! That's NOT ok!". My daughter burst into
tears and hid the rest of the appt. I told her I loved her when the
doc was telling me not to let her get away with that and how HER kids
would NOT get away with that. WHATever I thought... then you should
have seen the look on this dr's & a nurse's face when I refused vax's
for my son during this appointment. LOL "Are you sure......" YES, I'm
sure I said. Pfff. My daughter and I talked on the way home in the car
about what a moron and authoratative mom/dr. this woman was.-=-

It's my fault this post is here. I wrote and said I was rejecting it,
but I must have failed to do so.

The reason I wanted to/intended to send it back is that it's negative
and it's not a good example. It won't help people unschool. I didn't
want to have to say that in public, but now that it's here...

"Zip it" is like "shut up." Those are not good things to say to
people we love, when we're trying to help them negotiate the curves
and scary parts of the world.

-=- The doctor said to her with a gasp and then a firm "You don't talk
to your mom that way! That's NOT ok!".-=-

I would've said that too. She was in the doctor's office. The
doctor''s working there. If you're going to take your child into
someone else's home/store/office/automobile, they *d0* get to comment
on the way your child acts.

-=-My daughter and I talked on the way home in the car about what a
moron and authoratative mom/dr. this woman was.-=-

I'm not a huge fan of doctors, but I'm much less a fan of parents to
tell their children that ANYone is "a moron."

Sandra




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