Joyce being awesome again (and Sylvia)
Sandra Dodd
From a discussion elsewhere:
-=-Rachael may help you feel better about forcing your daughter to
brush her teeth, but her words won't help you find something that
improves your relationship with your daughter and helps keep her teeth
clean. But first you need to knock down the defensive walls. Rachael's
words are helping you maintain them.-=-
At the Radical Unschoolers Network site there's a discussion that's
very confusing to follow, but Joyce made something clear that we've
danced around for years: Why "support" can be so harmful.
A dad is flailing, his daughter is four, he hates Barbies dolls, he
forces her to brush her teeth, and he's proud of that. Another mom
came and totally defended him, directly and personally, and accused us
all (mostly me <g>) of terrible things... But after all the
discussion about time wasting and arrogance (ours, theirs), Joyce
nailed it:
-=-[A "supportive" person] may help you feel better about forcing your
daughter to brush her teeth, but her words won't help you find
something that improves your relationship with your daughter and helps
keep her teeth clean. But first you need to knock down the defensive
walls. ["Supportive"] words are helping you maintain them.-=-
She's supporting him staying where he is. She's supporting him being
openly and publicly disdainful of unschooling and unschoolers.
Sylvia Toyama has been on a glorious roll in there too.
http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/limits-rules-forcing
Sandra
-=-Rachael may help you feel better about forcing your daughter to
brush her teeth, but her words won't help you find something that
improves your relationship with your daughter and helps keep her teeth
clean. But first you need to knock down the defensive walls. Rachael's
words are helping you maintain them.-=-
At the Radical Unschoolers Network site there's a discussion that's
very confusing to follow, but Joyce made something clear that we've
danced around for years: Why "support" can be so harmful.
A dad is flailing, his daughter is four, he hates Barbies dolls, he
forces her to brush her teeth, and he's proud of that. Another mom
came and totally defended him, directly and personally, and accused us
all (mostly me <g>) of terrible things... But after all the
discussion about time wasting and arrogance (ours, theirs), Joyce
nailed it:
-=-[A "supportive" person] may help you feel better about forcing your
daughter to brush her teeth, but her words won't help you find
something that improves your relationship with your daughter and helps
keep her teeth clean. But first you need to knock down the defensive
walls. ["Supportive"] words are helping you maintain them.-=-
She's supporting him staying where he is. She's supporting him being
openly and publicly disdainful of unschooling and unschoolers.
Sylvia Toyama has been on a glorious roll in there too.
http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/limits-rules-forcing
Sandra
Jenny C
> She's supporting him staying where he is. She's supporting him beingYes, Joyce has invested many hours into that discussion and it shows!
> openly and publicly disdainful of unschooling and unschoolers.
She's said some pretty amazing stuff in there! Yet there is another
person there advocating staying in that comfort zone and supporting all
those ideas that won't help move someone towards unschooling, simply
because she wants everyone to be nicey nice.
> Sylvia Toyama has been on a glorious roll in there too.<http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/limits-rules-forcing>
> http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/limits-rules-forcing
I know! I'm super impressed with what she's been saying! The fact that
the guy is actually kind of listening to her is really really cool!
He's getting all upset and defensive, but he's listening to her!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
Alright, you guys got me over there and I've been reading the threads at the
Family RUN.ning site!
I agree with Frank, the guy is a Troll and probably should have taken a more
friendly tone from the beginning and for sure should be just READING now. I
think people get attached to their posts and need to defend it over and over
and that defeats the purpose of the group. Rachael needs to stop posting too
and read more.
I'm fairly new to unschooling too, but I don't see how asking unschoolers
how often things go wrong, when we've lost it, if we've ever doubted this
path, or what limits we impose really helps ANYONE who is on the path of
radical unschooling (the whole purpose of that site) or at least who wants
to be/stay on it.
Sure, I've had moments I'm not so proud of, where I wished I could have been
calmer with my son or done things differently. But I don't need to share
them with others or dwell on them! Now that I think about it, those moments
are fewer and farther between than they used to be, before I was really
making an effort towards the radicalness of unschooling (and I was already
into AP since becoming a mother, am still cosleeping with and occasionally
nursing my almost 5yo, so I'm no stranger to an alternate lifestyle!). I
don't need affirmation that RU is hard. I only share my problems or tough
moments when I'm truely at a loss for what I could have done differently
because I just can't seem to think of another way on my own, I'm too close
to it. Others who are not attached to my situation can often see more
clearly and offer great solutions or ideas that have worked for them, that
may or may not work for me, and I am grateful for all of them. Some ideas
sit in my head and maybe don't work now, but do work further down the road!
What really helps me is when people share the moments where RU DOES work. It
may sound strange to a newbie (as I was a year ago!) but it helps a great
deal to carry around in my head happy thoughts and images of what other
parents are doing out there or have done that portray a happy life with
their children. (Going to a conference helps a ton! You get to SEE it in
person!) If you are always thinking of ways to make things more positive,
you WILL.
I don't see how going around with images of how many other parents are
yelling at, grabbing too hard, shaming, or generally controlling their
children would be helpful. It might give one a false sense of support, just
knowing that they are not the only ones out there who mess up and can't seem
to parent the way they want to. If you are always thinking of how it's OK to
mess up because so many other parents are also messing up, you will mess up
more and more and think it's OK because you're not the only one. That's not
going to get you where you want to be! (Unless you really want to be
miserable and have unhappy kids. But I don't think anyone on a list or group
for RU really wants that, they just don't know how else to be.)
Kim Zerbe
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=4410250/grpspId=1705542111/msgId
=45742/stime=1244317557/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Family RUN.ning site!
I agree with Frank, the guy is a Troll and probably should have taken a more
friendly tone from the beginning and for sure should be just READING now. I
think people get attached to their posts and need to defend it over and over
and that defeats the purpose of the group. Rachael needs to stop posting too
and read more.
I'm fairly new to unschooling too, but I don't see how asking unschoolers
how often things go wrong, when we've lost it, if we've ever doubted this
path, or what limits we impose really helps ANYONE who is on the path of
radical unschooling (the whole purpose of that site) or at least who wants
to be/stay on it.
Sure, I've had moments I'm not so proud of, where I wished I could have been
calmer with my son or done things differently. But I don't need to share
them with others or dwell on them! Now that I think about it, those moments
are fewer and farther between than they used to be, before I was really
making an effort towards the radicalness of unschooling (and I was already
into AP since becoming a mother, am still cosleeping with and occasionally
nursing my almost 5yo, so I'm no stranger to an alternate lifestyle!). I
don't need affirmation that RU is hard. I only share my problems or tough
moments when I'm truely at a loss for what I could have done differently
because I just can't seem to think of another way on my own, I'm too close
to it. Others who are not attached to my situation can often see more
clearly and offer great solutions or ideas that have worked for them, that
may or may not work for me, and I am grateful for all of them. Some ideas
sit in my head and maybe don't work now, but do work further down the road!
What really helps me is when people share the moments where RU DOES work. It
may sound strange to a newbie (as I was a year ago!) but it helps a great
deal to carry around in my head happy thoughts and images of what other
parents are doing out there or have done that portray a happy life with
their children. (Going to a conference helps a ton! You get to SEE it in
person!) If you are always thinking of ways to make things more positive,
you WILL.
I don't see how going around with images of how many other parents are
yelling at, grabbing too hard, shaming, or generally controlling their
children would be helpful. It might give one a false sense of support, just
knowing that they are not the only ones out there who mess up and can't seem
to parent the way they want to. If you are always thinking of how it's OK to
mess up because so many other parents are also messing up, you will mess up
more and more and think it's OK because you're not the only one. That's not
going to get you where you want to be! (Unless you really want to be
miserable and have unhappy kids. But I don't think anyone on a list or group
for RU really wants that, they just don't know how else to be.)
Kim Zerbe
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=4410250/grpspId=1705542111/msgId
=45742/stime=1244317557/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 6, 2009, at 6:42 PM, Kim Zerbe wrote:
not good," as criticism of them: "You're not good. You're not
perfect." That's why he (and Rachael and Andy) have made sarcastic
remarks about not being perfect like other people supposedly are.
Unfortunately there's no quick cure ;-) You can't tell them to get
over it because it feels like more criticism ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't see how asking unschoolersI understand it. Some people see criticism of their ideas: "That's
> how often things go wrong, when we've lost it, if we've ever
> doubted this
> path, or what limits we impose really helps ANYONE who is on the
> path of
> radical unschooling
not good," as criticism of them: "You're not good. You're not
perfect." That's why he (and Rachael and Andy) have made sarcastic
remarks about not being perfect like other people supposedly are.
Unfortunately there's no quick cure ;-) You can't tell them to get
over it because it feels like more criticism ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]