Mary Hickcox

Hi all,

One thing I have been wondering about/worrying about/battling others about is the topic of college.  I do not by any means think it is necessary but I do want the option easily at hand if that is the choice my children make..  Does anyone have any story to share of how they unschooled and their child was still able to go to college?  I am not sure what to say when people ask this and then it gets me worrying that it will be a very tough endeavor.  I want every door open for them!  Thanks in advance

Mary mama to Dylan (10), Colin (5 1/2) and Theo Benjamin (born 8-28-07)
"Be who you want your children to be."    Unknown   "Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- I do not by any means think it is necessary but I do want the
option easily at hand if that is the choice my children make.. Does
anyone have any story to share of how they unschooled and their child
was still able to go to college? -=-

http://sandradodd.com/teen

There are stories there of college and jobs and such, but I'm sure
there will be some brought forth here on the list, too.

My kids are 17, 20 and 22 and though they've talked about college from
time to time, they haven't gone. (Kirby took a couple of classes to
see what it was like, not with any plan of working toward a specific
anything.) Marty talks about engineering sometimes and Holly's
interested in psychology, but they're both busy doing cool things and
haven't focussed that direction yet. They might not.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ellinghamsandwich

mary...oh your post came at the PERFECT time. my mother has been making such ignorant comments about unschooling (even though i've explained to her and tried to edumacate her many a time in the past 6 years...)& actually its a good good thing...the past few days she has asked me a few questions...

so one of her latest questions is 'what about college? how do unschoolers go on to college if they want to?. my answer was if they got a GED or went to H.S. as a teen and graduated w/ a diploma. these are the only 2 ways...or am i incorrect???

thank you for this topic!

oh and quickly...i just rejoined this group after being away a few years... i am solo parenting my daughter, 6.5yo and my son, 17mo. and i live in oregon.

living, loving & learning,
lis

--- In [email protected], Mary Hickcox <disser420@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> One thing I have been wondering about/worrying about/battling others about is the topic of college.  I do not by any means think it is necessary but I do want the option easily at hand if that is the choice my children make..  Does anyone have any story to share of how they unschooled and their child was still able to go to college?  I am not sure what to say when people ask this and then it gets me worrying that it will be a very tough endeavor.  I want every door open for them!  Thanks in advance
>
> Mary mama to Dylan (10), Colin (5 1/2) and Theo Benjamin (born 8-28-07)
> "Be who you want your children to be."    Unknown   "Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

ellinghamsandwich

i just had another thought...i have been in and out of various colleges of many sorts (community colleges and private art school)as well as certification programs & i don't believe they really and truly CHECK on the validation of our H.S. diplomas...maybe i'm wrong but i don't believe they truly do. hmmm. what do u all think? have any of you worked in a college administration dept.? do u know? (not that i'd want my kids to become swindlers and/or get themselves in trouble someday w/ their college edu...)
lis

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- I do not by any means think it is necessary but I do want the
> option easily at hand if that is the choice my children make.. Does
> anyone have any story to share of how they unschooled and their child
> was still able to go to college? -=-
>
> http://sandradodd.com/teen
>
> There are stories there of college and jobs and such, but I'm sure
> there will be some brought forth here on the list, too.
>
> My kids are 17, 20 and 22 and though they've talked about college from
> time to time, they haven't gone. (Kirby took a couple of classes to
> see what it was like, not with any plan of working toward a specific
> anything.) Marty talks about engineering sometimes and Holly's
> interested in psychology, but they're both busy doing cool things and
> haven't focussed that direction yet. They might not.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Some stories here about unschoolers going to college:

http://sandradodd. com/teen
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

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Bernadette Lynn

2009/4/30 Mary Hickcox <disser420@...>

> Hi all,
>
> One thing I have been wondering about/worrying about/battling others about
> is the topic of college. I do not by any means think it is necessary but I
> do want the option easily at hand if that is the choice my children make..
> Does anyone have any story to share of how they unschooled and their child
> was still able to go to college?
>
-------

I live in England so what I have to say might not answer your question but I
know this is an international school so I'll say it anyway.

My youngest sister graduated last November with a first-class degree in
Midwifery from a university in England. She wasn't unschooled but was
home-schooled very informally and didn't take any school exams. When she
decided on midwifery in her early twenties she was able to take a one-year
course at an adult education college which was all the qualification she
needed to start her degree.

She was top of her year all the way through and was also elected student rep
for her year, so her lack of formal education and peer group socialisation
didn't exactly hold her back at all.

In the UK there are several ways to get into university without academic
qualifications, especially as a 'mature' student - and there's the Open
University, which has very inclusive entry requirements, if you want a
degree but don't want to attend a regular college. I expect most countries
have something equivalent to the OU?

Bernadette.
--
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U15459


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/30/2009 1:36 PM, Mary Hickcox wrote:
> One thing I have been wondering about/worrying about/battling others about is the topic of college. I do not by any means think it is necessary but I do want the option easily at hand if that is the choice my children make.. Does anyone have any story to share of how they unschooled and their child was still able to go to college? I am not sure what to say when people ask this and then it gets me worrying that it will be a very tough endeavor. I want every door open for them! Thanks in advance
>

I do not want to encourage you to be thinking about college when your
oldest child is 10 years old. Seriously.

But, if it will ease your mind to know that it is possible for
unschoolers to go to college, I will tell you that my unschooled kids
are either graduated or in college now.

Roya is 24, radically unschooled since she was 10 years old, she
graduated with a BA degree in Recreation and Leisure Studies. In
college, she won a bunch of merit-based scholarships and the outstanding
graduating senior of the year award. She is now the coordinator of a
program called "Access to Adventure" - she plans and carries out
excursions and activities for adults with developmental and other
disabilities. She also does fundraising and hires and supervises student
interns. Here is their website
<http://proindependence.org/our_programs_access.htm> which I believe she
also created.

Roxana (21) is going to the University of California, Irvine, in the
fall as a Junior. She's probably going to have a double major in drama
and comparative literature. She's an honors student and she spent a
semester studying in Paris, France, last year.

Rose is 18 and always radically unschooled. She has taken college
courses and gotten good grades at the local community college and is now
working toward an ASL interpreter license plus fulfilling the general
education requirements to transfer to a university and major in Deaf
Studies.

Hope this helps - please don't feel you have to prepare kids for
college. The best preperation is a full life with lots of experiences.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=- i don't believe they really and truly CHECK on the validation of
our H.S. diplomas..-=-

They didn't check mine, but they got a transcript sent from the high
school.

Kids who didn't go to high school might do better to say "I don't have
a transcript because I didn't go to school," and provide a list of
cool things they did instead.

If a university really truly has no flexible alternative to a
transcript, I'd be willing to create one but I wouldn't begin to
falsify anything for it. If my kids wanted one of those they could
get someone else to make one. But I've known of lots of kids who went
to college saying "I didn't go to high school at all, and now I'd like
to go to college."

Sandra

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g-liberatedlearning

> Does anyone have any story to share of how they unschooled and
> their child was still able to go to college?


Zach, newly 18, always unschooled, has been taking college classes for
the last year+ with our Community College. When he wanted to take a
writing course we spoke with an adviser, he took a placement exam, and
off he went! The fact that he'd never attended high school was a non-
issue. He's taken literature, history and philosophy courses since
then and plans to take more next year and then possibly transfer as a
Sophomore into a 4-year college after that. Some of his formerly
homeschooled then high-schooled friends are having graduation parties
and ceremonies in the next few weeks but those kinds of milestone
marking events seem inconsequential to him when he's been working and
earning college credit for awhile now.


Chris
Radically Unschooling in Iowa
The Unzone



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Hickcox

As you could se from my initial post I was simply wondering and wanting to let people know HOW it worked.  I wasn't really looking for how children do IN school as I am sure all our children would be capable (a previous post sounded a bit like a resume, lol).  I wanted to have something to say to naysayers and also was curious about the ease of it all for the children that choose this path.

Mary mama to Dylan (10), Colin (5 1/2) and Theo Benjamin (born 8-28-07)
"Be who you want your children to be."    Unknown   "Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

--- On Thu, 4/30/09, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] College entry stories
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 7:49 PM





















On 4/30/2009 1:36 PM, Mary Hickcox wrote:

> One thing I have been wondering about/worrying about/battling others about is the topic of college. I do not by any means think it is necessary but I do want the option easily at hand if that is the choice my children make.. Does anyone have any story to share of how they unschooled and their child was still able to go to college? I am not sure what to say when people ask this and then it gets me worrying that it will be a very tough endeavor. I want every door open for them! Thanks in advance

>



I do not want to encourage you to be thinking about college when your

oldest child is 10 years old. Seriously.



But, if it will ease your mind to know that it is possible for

unschoolers to go to college, I will tell you that my unschooled kids

are either graduated or in college now.



Roya is 24, radically unschooled since she was 10 years old, she

graduated with a BA degree in Recreation and Leisure Studies. In

college, she won a bunch of merit-based scholarships and the outstanding

graduating senior of the year award. She is now the coordinator of a

program called "Access to Adventure" - she plans and carries out

excursions and activities for adults with developmental and other

disabilities. She also does fundraising and hires and supervises student

interns. Here is their website

<http://proindepende nce.org/our_ programs_ access.htm> which I believe she

also created.



Roxana (21) is going to the University of California, Irvine, in the

fall as a Junior. She's probably going to have a double major in drama

and comparative literature. She's an honors student and she spent a

semester studying in Paris, France, last year.



Rose is 18 and always radically unschooled. She has taken college

courses and gotten good grades at the local community college and is now

working toward an ASL interpreter license plus fulfilling the general

education requirements to transfer to a university and major in Deaf

Studies.



Hope this helps - please don't feel you have to prepare kids for

college. The best preperation is a full life with lots of experiences.



-pam





























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/30/2009 9:43 PM, Mary Hickcox wrote:
> As you could se from my initial post I was simply wondering and wanting to let people know HOW it worked. I wasn't really looking for how children do IN school as I am sure all our children would be capable (a previous post sounded a bit like a resume, lol). I wanted to have something to say to naysayers and also was curious about the ease of it all for the children that choose this path.
>
It isn't cool to laugh at what people offer in response to your
questions, even if they misunderstood what you wanted.

You said you don't know what to say when other people ask about college
and unschooling. What we were giving you was something simple and clear
to say. You can now say that you know of unschooled kids who have
graduated from college or are now in college and, in fact, they are
doing very well.

I know a lot of unschooled kids who have gone to college - each has
done it in their own way. Some took college entrance exams and did so
well that they were accepted and even given scholarships based on test
scores. Some created portfolios or narrative transcripts and were able
to get interviews and were accepted on that basis. Some applied to
schools that are looking particularly for nontraditional students. Some
went to community colleges to get a college transcript and used that in
their transfer application. Some took extension courses at the college
and then applied with that as their transcript.

-pam

[email protected]

**I want every door open for them! **

Well, you probably can't have that. But you couldn't have that if you sent
them to the best private school in the country, either, so it's not an
unschooling thing. :)

Deborah in IL


**************
Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from
anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003)


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milacala

Hi, I am new here but not new to homeschooling/unschooling. (My son is going
to be 9 and because we started out in a conventional school environment, we
have done _a lot_ of reading/comparing/arguing/discussing/active involvement
in educational alternatives.)

We have a young friend who was unschooled all of her life who now, at 17,
has been accepted to three good colleges - one of them an Ivy League school.
(Today is her deadline to pick a school!) She was never forced to "do school
work" by her parents, I think they might have asked her to do some math
every now and then but she's probably the most "unschooled" kid I've met.
Still, once she was of high school age, she enrolled in a cyber charter
school for a year or two. Through them, she started taking college classes
at the local community college and is now on her way into the world of
academics, with a great attitude and a healthy desire to learn.

Compare this to the daughter of another friend of mine: 16 years old, in a
catholic high school where they've been having SAT-practice classes on
Saturdays for many weeks now, where she took a Math test _last year_, and it
was clear based on her good but not excellent scores that she would not make
it to a "good school". (!?!?!?! )

She will not even apply to an Ivy League school because "she wouldn't get
in anyway".

This is a smart kid who does her homework, and likes school. And already at
16 she's told that she shouldn't "reach for the stars" (if you know what i
mean...)

Pretty scary, huh?


mila in nj



On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 2:58 AM, <DACunefare@...> wrote:

>
>
> **I want every door open for them! **
>
> Well, you probably can't have that. But you couldn't have that if you sent
> them to the best private school in the country, either, so it's not an
> unschooling thing. :)
>
> Deborah in IL
>
> **************
> Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from
> anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
> (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-. I wasn't really looking for how children do IN school as I am
sure all our children would be capable (a previous post sounded a bit
like a resume, lol).-=-

Don't laugh at people's freely offered posts.
If you ask for information and it is provided generously the same day
you asked, be grateful, not critical.

-=- I wanted to have something to say to naysayers and also was
curious about the ease of it all for the children that choose this
path.-=-

"The ease of it" has a great deal to do with how unschoolers do when
they get in there, and so a statement like "I am sure all our children
would be capable" is not very useful. Each unschooler who does well
in college makes it easier for admissions officers to feel good about
considering another one.

Sandra, the owner of the list
Seriously, be nice.

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Cameron Parham

I haven't posted in a while, but I remember a CD (someone lent me) from the conferences that used to be held in the North Carolina mountains.  It was by Wes Beach, called something like 'what it takes to succeed'.  Maybe from the 2004 conference. I have been wanting to ask if the CD's are still available for purchase? It was relevant to this thread. Cameron   




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kelly_sturman

--- In [email protected], Mary Hickcox <disser420@...> wrote:
>
> One thing I have been wondering about/worrying about/battling others
> about is the topic of college. 

College is fine for folks who want to go. But the idea that it
is the only path to success is wrong. There are lots of jobs
that don't need college degrees. Search the web using "best
jobs no college degree" and you will see a variety of interesting,
and many high paying jobs. (Not that *I* believe success is
measured by a high salary, but if you are speaking to folks
who do believe that, perhaps they'd be reassured that you can
earn oodles without a college degree.)

Another thing I look at is how many of my friends went to
college, and then didn't use the degree. Or, their career took
off on a tangent. My husband studied management in college.
He did a lot of computer programming in his free time, for fun.
His brother studied computer programming in college. Now,
guess which brother is the manager, and which brother does A
LOT of computer programming in his work? Yeah, my husband
writes a lot of programs to help him do his research--he's
a professor--and my brother-in-law is the manager.

I know a guy who took 10 years to get his Ph.D. That's
not ten years from high school graduation. That's ten
years after completing four years of undergraduate studies
and I don't know how many years earning a Master's degree.
He earned a Ph.D. in physics, then went to Hollywood and
became a successful writer of screenplays. Now, his degree
was tangental to his career; he started out as a science consultant
for a popular sci-fi show, and worked his way up from there.

I also know a lot of folks who learned their jobs by doing them,
then went back for degrees because the institutions for which
they work require the degree for promotion.

Anyway, I would really urge you to try to release your worries
about college. You kids will certainly pick up on those anxieties,
and that won't do any of you any good.

Kelly Sturman

Cameron Parham

To further clarify, I am referring to the unschooling conferences that I think were lead by Kelly Lovejoy. Why I can't recall the name of the conference is beyond me; if I could I'd have looked for that on the internet. Maybe Kelly will read this? I would like to know if sets of CD's from various years are still available. Thanks! Cameron  




________________________________
From: Cameron Parham <acsp2205@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 9:48:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: College entry stories





I haven't posted in a while, but I remember a CD (someone lent me) from the conferences that used to be held in the North Carolina mountains.  It was by Wes Beach, called something like 'what it takes to succeed'.  Maybe from the 2004 conference. I have been wanting to ask if the CD's are still available for purchase? It was relevant to this thread. Cameron   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

The conferences were Live and Learn! Pam Genant posted on the L&L
Yahoo group about the MP3s for the 2008 conference - maybe she would
know about CDs for previous ones. Try her at: Genant2@...

Robin B.

On May 16, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Cameron Parham wrote:

> To further clarify, I am referring to the unschooling conferences
> that I think were lead by Kelly Lovejoy. Why I can't recall the name
> of the conference is beyond me; if I could I'd have looked for that
> on the internet. Maybe Kelly will read this? I would like to know if
> sets of CD's from various years are still available. Thanks! Cameron
>
>
>

Cameron Parham

Thanks you, Robin B! Cameron




________________________________
From: Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:18:44 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: College entry stories





The conferences were Live and Learn! Pam Genant posted on the L&L
Yahoo group about the MP3s for the 2008 conference - maybe she would
know about CDs for previous ones. Try her at: Genant2@aol. com

Robin B.

On May 16, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Cameron Parham wrote:

> To further clarify, I am referring to the unschooling conferences
> that I think were lead by Kelly Lovejoy. Why I can't recall the name
> of the conference is beyond me; if I could I'd have looked for that
> on the internet. Maybe Kelly will read this? I would like to know if
> sets of CD's from various years are still available. Thanks! Cameron
>
>
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 16, 2009, at 11:48 PM, Cameron Parham wrote:

> I haven't posted in a while, but I remember a CD (someone lent me)
> from the conferences that used to be held in the North Carolina
> mountains. It was by Wes Beach, called something like 'what it
> takes to succeed'. Maybe from the 2004 conference. I have been
> wanting to ask if the CD's are still available for purchase? It was
> relevant to this thread. Cameron

It was the 2005 conference. The entire set of recordings is available
as an MP3 download but I don't see individual talks from that
conference:

http://liveandlearnshop.com/catalog/index.php?
main_page=product_info&products_id=2

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Colin Higgins

I am home schooling two boys, but I fully expect them to go to college. Not because I think college is absolutely necessary for one to become wise.

In the U.S. you individual rights are largely contingent upon your income. Poor people have essentially no rights. If they lack a permanent address they cannot open a bank account, get a credit card, obtain a mortgage. If their income is low, they might not have health insurance, and they might not be able to afford a lawyer to defend them in a court of law.

Your ability to earn money is connected to your college education, your personal contacts, your skills ... All of these things are important.

Now this doesn't mean a person needs to be making 500k to be happy and have rights. A person can live on a modest income as long as he or she has very little (or no) debt. Debt limits our freedoms, and makes us slaves to the lender.

A college degree bestows an "economic advantage" (although most degrees are wildly over-priced). Not for everyone--but for most.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am home schooling two boys, but I fully expect them to go to
college. =-

I used to full expect my kids to go to college. How old are your two
boys?

-=-In the U.S. you individual rights are largely contingent upon your
income. Poor people have essentially no rights. If they lack a
permanent address they cannot open a bank account, get a credit card,
obtain a mortgage.-=-

I'm pretty sure some of the homeless are college graduates. I know
for sure some of the wealthy are high school dropouts.

http://sandradodd.com/joy
http://sandradodd.com/president

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

I'm pretty sure some of the homeless are college graduates. I know
for sure some of the wealthy are high school dropouts.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



having worked in homeless services and mental health for several years, i guarantee you that the cause / contributing factors to homelessness are rarely, if ever, educational in nature. the vast majority of the time it is an addiction or a mental illness, often both, or one causing the other.

i worked with many college graduates, many from "upper class" and "middle class" families, etc., and in some cases, for those who did not go to college, the mental illness or addiction were the barrier to that as well. anything we can do as parents to improve our kids' general optimism/hope/happiness/contentedness and mental health is going to go a lot further toward preventing addiciton or mental illness, which will in turn mean a much more hopeful future than that of those who go to college but are depressed, anxious, and alcholic/addicted.

warmly, Lyla
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

It's a little wordy for the random quotes generator, but it's WAY
worth reading a time or two more:

-=-Anything we can do as parents to improve our kids' general optimism/
hope/happiness/contentedness and mental health is going to go a lot
further toward preventing addiciton or mental illness, which will in
turn mean a much more hopeful future than that of those who go to
college but are depressed, anxious, and alcholic/addicted.-=-

Holly has a boyfriend whose sister just got her medical license
reinstated, after in patient therapy in Kansas. Her residency was in
Oregon, but they won't take her back because she's troublesome, and
wouldn't falsify a report. (Even if that was her only problem, she's
still troublesome.) The reason her license was revoked is that she
prescribed something strong to someone who wasn't her patient (her
boyfriend) and then downed it all to try to kill herself.

She didn't want to be a doctor, but her parents assured her (from
birth, apparently, as they have Brett) that it's the only way to be
happy, or at least the only way for the parents to be happy.

I don't think the parents are happy. I know his sister isn't happy.
And she's in debt a few thousand dollars, too. She could've bought a
house with that money and be working in a fast food place and smiling
every day she woke up.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cameron Parham

THanks, Joyce! Cameron




________________________________
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 4:03:08 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: College entry stories






On May 16, 2009, at 11:48 PM, Cameron Parham wrote:

> I haven't posted in a while, but I remember a CD (someone lent me)
> from the conferences that used to be held in the North Carolina
> mountains. It was by Wes Beach, called something like 'what it
> takes to succeed'. Maybe from the 2004 conference. I have been
> wanting to ask if the CD's are still available for purchase? It was
> relevant to this thread. Cameron

It was the 2005 conference. The entire set of recordings is available
as an MP3 download but I don't see individual talks from that
conference:

http://liveandlearn shop.com/ catalog/index. php?
main_page=product_ info&products_ id=2

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cameron Parham

Thank you, Sandra. Cameron




________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 7:45:41 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: College entry stories





I bet someone will have already brought a link to order CDs, if
they're available, but here's his site:
http://www2. cruzio.com/ ~beachhi/ home.html






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kelly_sturman

> In the U.S. you individual rights are largely contingent upon
> your income.

There are many high income jobs that do not require college.
There are many college graduates who are unemployed or
underemployed and carrying crushing student debts.

Check out these sites; there are many, many others with the same
message:

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2008/12/30/20-big-salary-jobs-no-degree-required/
http://www.ehow.com/about_4760951_high-income-careers.html
http://www.100kjobfinder.com/jobs-no-degree.php

> Poor people have essentially no rights. If they lack a permanent
> address they cannot open a bank account, get a credit card, obtain
> a mortgage.

So, save money, and if they use for college, okay; if they use it to
buy a home, also okay. Or, if you and they continue to be happy
living under the same roof, why should they have to move out
just because they reach a certain birthday?

> Your ability to earn money is connected to your college education,
> your personal contacts, your skills ... All of these things are important.

Is this the "go to college to be a part of the 'old boys' club'" argument?
There are lots of ways to make personal contacts. You don't have
to go to an Ivy and join a fraternity/sorority.

Kelly Sturman

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 17, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Colin Higgins wrote:

> I am home schooling two boys, but I fully expect them to go to
> college. Not because I think college is absolutely necessary for
> one to become wise.

When unschoolers respond to such conventional thinking, the message
that gets heard is that unschoolers think college is unimportant.

Instead, what should be heard is: rethink what you've been fed. The
words you've written are so entrenched in most people's minds as to
go unquestioned.

Those who deliberately choose not to go to college because they have
other plans are in a separate category from those who can't go to
college or refuse to subject themselves to 4 more years of school.
But statistics on median income lump them together. It would be like
using high school drop outs as a way to measure the potential success
of unschooling.

Most college graduates enter the work force in huge debt. Which, as
you say: "A person can live on a modest income as long as he or she
has very little (or no) debt. Debt limits our freedoms, and makes us
slaves to the lender." Debt also makes us slaves to our jobs. College
graduates have to get good paying jobs to pay off their debts. And to
keep a good paying job one generally settles down and buys a house,
adding to the debt and tying one down further.

If you think outside the corporate world and middle class America,
think outside the standard track, there are far more opportunities
for jobs than most people think. Most people see the standard track
and if they aren't on it, they feel like they're stuck in low paying
jobs. Just as many people feel like they've limited their future by
dropping out of high school. But those who feel they've freed
themselves from chains that were holding them back are far more
likely to succeed.

When college is seen as another way to explore what you're interested
in, rather than a bunch of expensive hoops to jump through to a good
paying job, it's even more valuable. But even better for some is the
freedom to explore life beyond home on their own. It costs way less
than a year of college for a kid to explore Europe on the cheap. And
they'll be picking up way more than they would from some overpriced
textbooks ;-) They can spend four or more years after their "high
school years" exploring all sorts of jobs, learning on the job --
while they get paid for it! And no reason they can't then go onto
college if they want to.

Most parents fear that if their kids don't go directly from high
school to college that they won't. It's not unreasonable. After 12
years, kids are burned out on school. It can take *years* to recover
from that. And few will be willing to jump back into what they have
such poor memories of.

Unschooling doesn't get in the way of anyone going to college.
Unschooling provides a pathway for kids to show who they really are
and explore what their interested in rather than generate a bunch of
letters next to hoops.

A good book on the opportunities besides college is The Uncollege
Alternative.

http://tinyurl.com/oqa7fm

Joyce

Jenny C

>>> In the U.S. you individual rights are largely contingent upon your
income. Poor people have essentially no rights. If they lack a permanent
address they cannot open a bank account, get a credit card, obtain a
mortgage. If their income is low, they might not have health insurance,
and they might not be able to afford a lawyer to defend them in a court
of law.>>>

Just because someone doesn't go to college, doesn't mean they won't have
health insurance or a house or bank account, or even afford to hire a
lawyer. Just because a person goes to college, doesn't mean they will
have a bank account or health insurance or a house, etc. That's a huge
either or statement you are making about going to college.


>>> Your ability to earn money is connected to your college education,
your personal contacts, your skills ... All of these things are
important.>>>

I absolutely disagree with this statement! Why connect personal
contacts and skills with college education? Sure sometimes those things
interconnect, but certainly not always, and I would even wager that
personal contacts and skills are far more important than a piece of
paper from a college, for most careers!


>>> Now this doesn't mean a person needs to be making 500k to be happy
and have rights. A person can live on a modest income as long as he or
she has very little (or no) debt. Debt limits our freedoms, and makes us
slaves to the lender. >>>

What you are talking about is living within ones means. It has nothing
whatsoever to do with wether or not someone goes to college, or even if
someone makes tons of money or not. My experience has shown that most
folks who make a lot of money, also have a lot of debt, not the other
way around. Most people who make very little money, have very little
debt. That might not be everyone else's experience, but that's what
I've seen.


>>> A college degree bestows an "economic advantage" (although most
degrees are wildly over-priced). Not for everyone--but for most.>>>

Sure, colleges and schools would love for us all to believe this load of
lies! They have an invested interest to promote that idea!
>