Joseph Fuerst

**Your daughter's not hitting anyone else, so that's something!**

My 10yo dd got into an altercation with a 9yo boy neighor last week. We
were all playing outside, and he was teasing her.....she was getting really
worked up and even crying, which just seemed to fuel the boy's fire. I
pulled her aside and talked to her, asked her to walk in the back yard or
lick a ball back there until she felt calmer and in control od herself - she
went away for a few minutes, but returned too quickly.
The boy's mom happened to come out and we were chatting when, suddenly,
her son was knocked about 4 - 6 feet through the air and landed flat. Katy
began crying, I walked to her and put my arm aound her shoulder, and told
her to go inside, I'd ber in in a minute. Then I asked another girl what
happened.....meanwhile, other mom began yelling at her son, when she
learned he hit Katy first.....one thing she said was, "See how much trouble
Katy got in - she had to go in the house!"
Amazing....I'd sent her in for two reasons 1) to not have her be
embarassed by talking it out in front of a dozen kids, and 2) to allow her
to diffuse her anger a bit by getting out of the situation.
Anyway, we talked about it when I went in for just a minute....more a
'just calm down now, we'll talk this through when we're away from it a
bit." Anyway, I believe it scared her to know her strength in hitting
someone; and it scared her to feel she 'couldn't help it'

We had several long talks over the next few days about understaning her
anger triggers, noticing signs in others when they're angry, knowing which
people will actuallty hit you when they're mad (This is her second incident
with this boy...he hit first last time, too.) , the ned to defend oneself,
and the need to remove yourself from a situation before that point if you
see the signs coming on.
Hope dd can figure some of this out before anything bigger than this
happens. I'm hoping time and other experience will enable her to grow in
understanding without anyone getting hurt!
Susan

Sharon Rudd

.
> The boy's mom happened to come out and we were
> chatting when, suddenly,
> her son was knocked about 4 - 6 feet through the air
> and landed flat. Katy
> began crying, I walked to her and put my arm aound
> her shoulder, and told
> her to go inside, I'd ber in in a minute. Then I
> asked another girl what
> happened.....meanwhile, other mom began yelling at
> her son, when she
> learned he hit Katy first.....one thing she said
> was, "See how much trouble
> Katy got in - she had to go in the house!"
Susan
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
The boy may have felt rewarded that Katy was
apparently punished....

Actually though, I think it is great that Katy knows
she can defend herself quite effectively from little
bullies like that kid. Perhaps he learned a lesson,
too. I hope Katy is not frightened of her strength.
Could be the situation was actually empowering.

Enough is enough, for anyone. Even children.

Sharon of the Swamp


__________________________________________________
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Tia Leschke

> I
>pulled her aside and talked to her, asked her to walk in the back yard or
>lick a ball back there until she felt calmer and in control od herself

Sorry. I know this is serious......but I couldn't help imagining her
*licking* the ball. Must have cracked everyone up. <g>
Tia


No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

itzimportant

For yet different possibilities in your situation.
When a single child is abusing a toy, or two children are fighting over a toy, I often say, "Oh, looks like this toy needs to do a time out." And it does. The toy goes away. (I move it too high to reach, or into a space where it's not available.) I don't care to make any effort to judge "who started it" or "who was more out of line". To me, if I play that game, I'm in a negative conversation loop, where the children are vying to think of stories that will impress me more. And I truly don't care (if one child or the other started it).

In my experience, what this teaches include:
--mom is reliable - she gives the toy back
--not resolving a way to use the toy together results in both/all of us losing it, so it motivates the kids to resolve things before that point. Not that they always will, and none of us are perfect, so that's to be expected.
--we survived when the toy disappeared, which gives perspective on how important it seemed at the time when each of us wanted to use it differently.
--etc.

If this seems not very unschoolish an approach, I apologize. I really do have positive goals in mind when I do this, it isn't meant to punish, it is meant to "change the scenery", as it were. It is also more positive for me to time the *toy* out, than to time the *child* out.

Secondly, regards the incident you described where your 4.5 year old daughter was repeatedly hitting you, "...where she is pushing me, running into me, hitting me, just fighting with everything she has to get the door."

One of my favorite quotes is: "If you're not doing what you're teaching, maybe you're teaching something else."

In my home, a child could hit or push me *once*, and then I would take action to stop that immediately. Onto the couch to hit the couch cushions, into a same-room time out, into time out in their room, asked to run 10 laps around the swingset in the back yard.

I would never in any situation allow a child to hit me repeatedly, because in that case, in my mind, what I'm teaching is that physical violence is an acceptable way to attempt to resolve problems between human beings. And to me, it is not.

Sandra Dodd

-=-And I truly don't care (if one child or the other started it). -=-

How old are these children? How many are there? How long have you
not cared who started something?

Before others respond much, I wanted to point out that the post
beginning "For yet different possibilities in your situation..." is by
someone who joined the list three days ago. I seriously considered
not letting it through, but the responses will be helpful to many
readers, I think.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vidyut Kale

I think time out/laps would hurt the child. I don't think it is kind to hurt
him intentionally because he hurt you. All it says is that you have more
power and are willing to use it to make him do stuff he doesn't like.
Wouldn't that mean you have entered the fight as the biggest player?

Vidyut


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 29, 2010, at 1:16 AM, itzimportant wrote:

> If this seems not very unschoolish an approach, I apologize.

If your husband took something away from you and your friend because
you were arguing, would it seem like he cared more about his agenda
for peace than about helping you?

If someone feels an action would be damaging to an adult relationship
they cared about, it's likely to whittle at the relationship with kids.

> I really do have positive goals in mind when I do this, it isn't
> meant to punish, it is meant to "change the scenery", as it were. It
> is also more positive for me to time the *toy* out, than to time the
> *child* out.

Most parents I know do have good intent: they want what's "best" for
their kids. But the important *unschooling* question is, does that
action get understood in the way you intend? Do the kids feel
confident your goal is to help them? Do they feel through seeing your
method of problem solving that they've gained a little more insight on
how to solve conflicts between them and between others? Would you like
them to adopt the model you've used in conflicts with their friends?

> In my home, a child could hit or push me *once*, and then I would
> take action to stop that immediately.

So would a radical unschooler. But *why* are you stopping it? To teach
them not to hit? To teach them hitting is not acceptable?

Kids do need the information that hitting isn't appropriate (in
whatever inappropriate situation they've used it in). (Though we don't
necessarily need to tell them. Our actions redirecting them to better
ways can say it clearly to most people.)

Where a respectful approach deviates from conventional parenting is
that it should *NOT* be assumed that because kids are hitting that
they either 1) don't know it's bad or are 2) deliberately making the
bad choice.

A view point that helps parents see more helpful and respectful ways
to respond is to assume a child is always doing the best they can in
the moment and they need help to do better. A child may know hitting
isn't a good choice, but in the moment -- tired, hungry, frustrated --
the direct route is right there and the more complex route is foggy
and uncertain.

The most important question is: "What led up to it? What did I miss?
What could I do differently next time to defuse the build up that led
to it?" The more a parent can prevent, the more energy and patience
there is for the unexpected.

> Onto the couch to hit the couch cushions, into a same-room time out,
> into time out in their room, asked to run 10 laps around the
> swingset in the back yard.

To be helpful in a situation, a person should focus on meeting the
need. If a child has hit because they're full of energy and need to
expend it, mom should shift the atmosphere to something more
energetic. (Better is becoming aware of the signals of a build up and
redirecting sooner.) If a child has hit because they're hungry, food
will help. (Better is being aware of the time and learning signs of
hunger and bring out food before the "STARVING!" alarm goes off. If a
child has hit because she's reached the end of her rope with another
child, the mom can redirect to change the dynamic. (Better, of course,
is learning the signs of the build up and redirecting sooner.)

So withdrawing, punching a pillow, running around, could be tools mom
suggests might help (depending on personality, the reason), but using
them as punishment won't help someone learn better approaches to
solving differences.

> I would never in any situation allow a child to hit me repeatedly,
> because in that case, in my mind, what I'm teaching is that physical
> violence is an acceptable way to attempt to resolve problems between
> human beings. And to me, it is not

If you always respond positively without negative feedback to one
method, without offering other methods, of course any person will use
whatever method most efficiently gets their needs met.

If someone's upset and a second person imposes her agenda of peace on
him, he's likely to be even more upset. He doesn't want lectures on
someone's values. He wants a way to solve a problem that's confounding
him.

It helps unschooling moms *greatly* to assume kids don't want to hurt
others or damage things but are having trouble figuring out how to
meet their need without doing that. Help them. Open up your tool box
and use it to find better solutions.

(I think if anyone reads back through that, the approaches are much
like we'd want to be treated or might treat other adults we deeply
cared about and wanted to help.)

Here's some discussion Sandra collected:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

There are more links at the bottom of the page.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-One of my favorite quotes is: "If you're not doing what you're
teaching, maybe you're teaching something else." -=-

Before posting any more on this list, please read one page and decide
whether you can move away from using the word "teaching" in an
unschooling discussion. If you think you can't do that, then this
list will be frustrating for you. I'm willing to let you stay, if
you're willing to accept that every time you talk about teaching,
someone is going to point that out.

http://sandradodd.com/wordswords

Your children are always learning, and they aren't necessarily going
to learn what you hope they will learn.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-To be helpful in a situation, a person should focus on meeting the
need. If a child has hit because they're full of energy and need to
expend it, mom should shift the atmosphere to something more
energetic. (Better is becoming aware of the signals of a build up and
redirecting sooner.-=-

Yeah. Hitting pillows doesn't help the pillows, for one thing.
Here's a recent page on activities for kids who need more activities!
http://sandradodd.com/physicality

-=-If a child has hit because they're hungry, food
will help. (Better is being aware of the time and learning signs of
hunger and bring out food before the "STARVING!" alarm goes off. -=

If a kid is hungry and the mom says "take ten laps," the mother is
being a Very Bad Mom.
I'm thinking any bad mom who suggests ten laps and means it is better
suited to being a sports coach than the parent of young children.

There are REAL things to do that might serve the purpose ten laps
would. "Could you check the mail for me, please?" (helps most if the
mailbox is down a driveway, and not fastened to the front wall <g>).
Could you see if the dog has water? Will you go turn the hose on the
lilacs, please?

But if the answer is "No, I really don't want to," the mom should try
something different. If it's truly a move to get the kid moving and
out into the air and sunshine for long enough to calm himself, that's
not punishment.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

Someone grabs your purse and you try to yank it back and start
screaming. The police come along and give your purse a time-out and say
they don't care who started it. Then the cop proceeds to try to help you
find a way to use the purse together.

What are you thinking about that cop? Are you going to turn to the cops
for help, next time?

-pam







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Someone grabs your purse and you try to yank it back and start
screaming. The police come along and give your purse a time-out and say
they don't care who started it. Then the cop proceeds to try to help you
find a way to use the purse together.

-=-What are you thinking about that cop? Are you going to turn to the
cops
for help, next time?-=-

I'd be thinking "This cop is as bad at this as my mother was!"

My mom liked to say "I don't care who started it." Though my younger
sister bugged me, she never, ever started anything. Never. My
parents took in two cousins, one when I was nearly seven, and one when
I was eight. Sisters. So there was one eight months older than I was
(and in the same grade) and one a year older than my sister (and in
the same grade, because starting dates were different in the state
where she had lived earlier).

So in a snapshot moment, we were 12, 11, 9 and 8.

Others said "Oh how cute! It's like two sets of twins.

It was NOT like two sets of twins. The cousin my age was sweet and
good and interesting and honest, but I didn't like the fact that I was
no longer the oldest, and that I had to share my room, and then my
mother was always praising and bragging her up. Not twins. Her
sister was a horrible abuse and neglect case who had been taken from
her mother by the courts. Some parts of being at our house weren't
much better for her. The fact of her being at our house made it much
worse for all of the rest of us.

She was violent and mean. What I didn't know until years later was
that she was sexually messing with my sister. My sister didn't tell,
because up to that point everything she had reported got them both in
trouble, because my mom was too lazy to figure out how to deal with
problems in a compassionate way. She just yelled, spanked, and
grounded people, and then muttered and complained until she calmed
down. So my sister figured telling about that would get her in a
WHOLE lot of trouble with my mom, and then increased trouble with the
cousin.

Perhaps this came to mind because yesterday my sister (who is 53)
called to say that Nadine (who is 54) became a great grandmother last
week. Great grandmother. Neither my sister nor I are grandmothers.

"I don't care whose fault it was" opens the door for secrecy, lying
and sexual abuse.

-=-And I truly don't care (if one child or the other started it). -=-

How could someone with the e-mail address "itzimportant" think such a
thing? How could someone who thinks such a thing write it down and
mail it out?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Halldorson

Sandra wrote:

+++"I don't care whose fault it was" opens the door for secrecy, lying
and sexual abuse.+++


I completely agree.

However, there is also this...

I have on occasion said, "right at this moment it is irrelevant who started it"

or if I'm not being calm...

"I don't care who started it! Please lets just calm down and THEN we can get to the bottom of it."

In other words sometimes a situation is so dire (kids are hitting each other) where who started it is of no immediate importance. Just get things settled down enough so all those who started it things can be addressed is more urgent. And if expressing to the kids that you will listen but you are more concerned *at the moment* with the present situation requires you to express that, I think phrases like "I care who's fault it is but can we get through this first" or things of that nature...

Peace,
Kelly

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I have on occasion said, "right at this moment it is irrelevant who
started it"
or if I'm not being calm...
"I don't care who started it! Please lets just calm down and THEN we
can get to the bottom of it."
-=-In other words sometimes a situation is so dire (kids are hitting
each other) where who started it is of no immediate importance. -=-


My counter-opinion: If the mother thinks that, she shouldn't say it.

The way I handled it with three kids within five years and three
months was this:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

A summary:

First save the loser. Nothing needs to be said but the one who seems
to be losing should be extricated from the situation.
Let each tell his side but NOT (not, not for any reason, I know some
people think it's a good idea, but it's not) in front of the other one.

While the mom is going back and forth to help them sort out what
happened, they are also calming down. So should the mom be.
Breathing and loving and calming.

At the end, each of them had something to use to avoid or to diffuse a
similar situation in the future. Each of them including the mom,
because very often the mom can discover part of the problem could have
been avoided by her being nearer or conditions being different.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***In my home, a child could hit or push me *once*, and then I would take
action to stop that immediately. Onto the couch to hit the couch
cushions, into a same-room time out, into time out in their room, asked
to run 10 laps around the swingset in the back yard.

I would never in any situation allow a child to hit me repeatedly,
because in that case, in my mind, what I'm teaching is that physical
violence is an acceptable way to attempt to resolve problems between
human beings. And to me, it is not.***

This is very typical mainstream parenting ideas. The problem with dealing with kids in this way is that it only addresses the symptoms of the problem, not why the problem is happening.

I happen to know the mom and children that this conversation started about. I can't imagine this mom resorting to these kinds of tactics. She's much more proactive and tries very hard to be present more and head things off before they start. This kind of advice would be a huge step backwards for her.

For others reading and gaining ideas from this whole topic, it seems important to point out that dealing with the symptoms works for some kids to get results, but all of it comes at a cost. Kids can be motivated by threats and mom's rules. Kids can also learn how to be kinder and gentler because they truly know and see a reason to be and that sort of thing takes a lot of time sometimes. Sometimes it takes years for a kid to be aware that hitting and screaming and anger aren't great tools to use.

There are plenty of kids in our neighborhood that have never figured that out and don't appear to be getting any proactive ideas for doing it another way. The behavior can get a child in trouble with parents, either their own or others, or other kids, but they have nothing to replace it with because it is only addressing the symptoms and not the root cause of instant anger and frustration and why and how they got there.

The ways in which people are suggesting understanding the child's perspective and really getting behind the cause of the behavior, doesn't always mete out immediate results. It's constant and continuous tweeking and being there more and being more aware, and then one day that child "gets it". It doesn't mean that a parent allows or condones hitting and angry outbursts, it means that the ways in which these are addressed work towards a different goal that is much more long term.

My youngest is 8. She's dealt with anger and frustration and hitting and yelling. She still does it sometimes. It is always something that could have been avoided. Working with her to avoid those triggers helps her know where her limits and buttons are that trigger these things. The older she gets, the better she is getting at taking herself out of the situation BEFORE she blows it, and when she gets stuck, she's finding better ways to take herself out while she blowing it. I can be her safe place or I can be another voice telling her to "knock it off". She's already got one of those in her own head, and even when I "feel" like telling her that, I know it's not going to be helpful to get her to a place of calm, centered, and happy again. When she's that far into a rage, it's best to let her get it out and do as much damage control as possible with kindness and patience. If I can see before she gets that far, that's even better, and I can
distract her enough for her to stay clear headed.

***When a single child is abusing a toy, or two children are fighting over a toy, I often say, "Oh, looks like this toy needs to do a time out." And it does. The toy goes away.***

I can tell you that this has unintended consequences. My oldest is 16 and she was my "I'm learning how to be a parent" child. I did do stuff like that. Even though it felt like the right thing to do, she still remembers vividly some instances in which I did that and thought all was well and everyone moved on, but she came away from it with a VERY different view of it. Primarily one of not being heard or respected. She's 16 and STILL remembers NOT being heard and respected!!!! I repeated that because it's important!

Helping kids not fight over toys is a good thing, helping them to not destroy things is a good thing. Taking toys away and putting them out of reach or in time out to encourage the kids to get along better doesn't seem like the best answer. Distractions are great. Adding to the play in happy and fun ways are wonderful. Stepping in to prevent a child from being hurt or hurting another is a good thing. In the best of circumstances, most conflict can be avoided. That doesn't always happen, but moms and dads have a great power to make peace happen by being peaceful and calm and listening and understanding and distracting.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***Someone grabs your purse and you try to yank it back and start
screaming. The police come along and give your purse a time-out and say
they don't care who started it. Then the cop proceeds to try to help you
find a way to use the purse together.***

Yesterday I took Margaux and 3 neighbor kids on a bike ride through the greenway next to our house. It's a 70 acre greenway with over 7 playgrounds in it. So as we biked along, the kids would stop at the different parks and hop on swings or go down slides. One of the kids, every time he saw one of the other kids heading for a particular swing, would try to get there first to use it. It was really causing the other kids to be mad at him. The first 2 times I let it go because we hopped back onto our bikes and moved on to the next playground. After that I told him to stop taking other people's "whatever" when he knew full well that they were going to use it. He said he wanted to use it too, which is completely understandable. So, I told him that he'd get a turn, but that he needed to wait for it rather than steal it.

He got mad and rode off on his bike and said he wasn't going to be friends with anyone there, ever again. The other kids were really worried about him doing that. I told them to let it go and that surely he'd come right back, because if he went home without us he'd get in a lot of trouble with his mother who only let him go because he was with an adult. He came back and was nicer, after blowing off some steam on a short and intense bike ride. He got his turn and all of the kids were nicer after that. If I hadn't cared whose fault it was, it would have escalated and caused all the kids to continue fighting. This kid was the youngest one in the group, yet is probably the biggest bully in the neighborhood. I had stair step ages yesterday, 6, 7, 8, and just turned 10.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Su Penn

On Jun 29, 2010, at 3:43 PM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:

> If I hadn't cared whose fault it was, it would have escalated and caused all the kids to continue fighting.

But you witnessed the whole thing, so it was really clear to you that intervening with this one kid about his behavior was the right thing to do.

I don't know if it's my temperament or my kids, but I don't find the kind of back-and-forth "get the story from both sides" thing Sandra did with her kids very helpful with Eric and Carl, if I didn't catch the beginning of a conflict. Maybe I just lack the patience, or maybe it's because they both have very strong, persistent feelings that seem to shift better if they're alone and quiet than if they're talking (if they'll talk at all about anything that has them upset). It doesn't mean I have a great alternative at hand just now, just that my experiments with that have not gone well at all for any of us, so I keep looking for alternatives.

Su, mom to Eric, 9; Carl, 6; Yehva, 2.5
tapeflags.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

***When a single child is abusing a toy, or two children are fighting
over a toy, I often say, "Oh, looks like this toy needs to do a time
out." And it does. The toy goes away.***

"Abuse" isn't the best word to use there. The toy doesn't have
feelings, and so isn't "feeling abused."

*** I often say, "Oh, looks like this toy needs to do a time out."***

Often?
The toy doesn't not "need" to do anything.
The toy doesn't NOT "need a time out."

When a parent isn't clear in thought and word, the children won't be
clear about thoughts, concepts, or what the parent believes.
If the parent isn't moving every day toward more clarity of
understanding, and being the child's partner, and learning to be a
better parent, unschooling isn't going to work.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Damien

>
> ***In my home, a child could hit or push me *once*, and then I would take
> action to stop that immediately. Onto the couch to hit the couch
> cushions, into a same-room time out, into time out in their room, asked
> to run 10 laps around the swingset in the back yard.
>
> I would never in any situation allow a child to hit me repeatedly,
> because in that case, in my mind, what I'm teaching is that physical
> violence is an acceptable way to attempt to resolve problems between
> human beings. And to me, it is not.***


> This is very typical mainstream parenting ideas. The problem with dealing with kids in this way is that it only addresses the symptoms of the problem, not why the problem is happening.
>
> I happen to know the mom and children that this conversation started about. I can't imagine this mom resorting to these kinds of tactics. She's much more proactive and tries very hard to be present more and head things off before they start. This kind of advice would be a huge step backwards for her.
>


Thanks, Jenny this is so true that it would be a step back! When I read that I thought, yep, that's what I would have done a couple of years ago. Not anymore!

Maybe my original quote wasn't very clear, but she wasn't hitting me in a violent, mean way. She was mostly pushing and hyperfocused on getting back to that wagon. Everything in her body and mind seemed to be screaming that she had to get back there to close that door because that was the most important thing in the world right then. I was an obstacle to that goal (I can see that now, though at the time of the original post I was really feeling like she just *wanted* to fight with me, but I know that's not true).

That is what I am trying to learn how to do a better job of- NOT being an obstacle, but being her partner and helping her learn better ways to handle conflict. That's why I come to this list and not mainstream parenting ones.

And it's not like I sit there and let my kid use me as a punching bag. I was trying to come up with other things for her to do to calm down. And I have caught her hand in mid-air and said "don't hit me." It's not that I let the interaction happen in such a way that she thinks hitting is ok to do. I just don't focus on the fact that she is hitting me and that I need to make it stop. Instead I try to focus on *why* she is that frustrated that and how I can help.

Emily

NCMama

=-=She was mostly pushing and hyperfocused on getting back to that wagon. Everything in her body and mind seemed to be screaming that she had to get back there to close that door because that was the most important thing in the world right then.=-=

When I read your original post, I was wondering (as I am now), why you didn't just close the door? Unless it was VERY important to the 2-year-old that it be open.

I'm asking because sometimes we get ideas in our head of "fairness" - if the 2 y.o. is fairly easygoing, or could be easily distracted from the door, it might not seem "fair" that the older daughter 'get her way' by having the door closed. BUT, if the younger child truly doesn't care, or is willing to be distracted, it's more peaceful to just close the door and let it be.

Some kids are more willing to be directed - this doesn't make it "unfair" that the other, more insistent child gets their way, it's just a dynamic between the two people. If they're both happy, they're both happy.

I understand if the 2-year-old was also being insistent! But I had the question again when I read your post, so thought I'd write.

Caren

plaidpanties666

> When a single child is abusing a toy...

Abusing a toy? As in destroying? Whose toy is it? How upset will the child be later if its destroyed?

Last night Morgan spent a lovely hour sheering her stuffed unicorn. It had a long, mottled mane and tail and in the process of trimming the fur down to the nap she discovered it was striped! It was exciting for her. Plus now she has a big bag of multi-colored unicorn fluff for projects. If I'd looked at my dd and thought "she's abusing a toy" and taken it away without looking at the matter from her perspective, she'd still have a long haired unicorn, but she wouldn't have the excitement of discovery or the anticipation of her multi-colored fluff project.

Over the winter Mo set up her electric trains in the living-room and now and then she'd forget that electric trains are dainty things compared to some of her other toys. I'd remind her when she started getting rough with them, or offer to do some other, energetic fun with her. I knew she'd be disappointed to find her trains broken.

>>or two children are fighting over a toy, I often say, "Oh, looks like this toy needs to do a time out." And it does. The toy goes away.
****************

Sometimes when kids are fighting over an object (toy, controller, remote...) it can help to put the object out of sight for a little, but that's reeeeeaaaallllly situational and depends on the dynamic between the kids. In any case there's no need whatsoever to belittle the people involved by pretending "the toy needs a time out". Put the toy out of sight and see if that helps, or offer to do so and see if the kids find that helpful.

>>It is also more positive for me to time the *toy* out, than to time the *child* out.
******************

It can help to step all the way away from the whole idea of "time out". Its not a good tool for problem solving! Getting away from times out involves learning a new set of skills, skills that get you more involved with the kids outside of crises so that you can prevent more of them, and in the process help the kids develop more skills of their own - and you, too (generic "you": the parent).

> In my home, a child could hit or push me *once*, and then I would take action to stop that immediately.
************

Its good to be clear about your own boundaries! I want to be really clear about that, because sometimes messages about helping children can come across as saying parents shouldn't have boundaries. Boundaries are good things. Clear communication is a good thing, too. At the same time, parents are adults, which means they can be expected to have more skills, more reserves of energy and kindness and empathy than children. A child who's falling apart to the point of hitting needs kindness and empathy. A child who can't find a way to communicate beyond hitting needs those too.

>> into a same-room time out, into time out in their room, asked to run 10 laps around the swingset in the back yard.
*****************

Times out and penalties are punishments. They happen because there's a threat of violence behind them, that's one of the things adults forget when kids are compliant. When someone is punished they learn a whole lot about power and anger and force, about resentment and denial and vengence. That doesn't always leave room for the "lesson" the "teacher" intends.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

plaidpanties666

Su Penn <su@...> wrote:
>> I don't know if it's my temperament or my kids, but I don't find the kind of back-and-forth "get the story from both sides" thing Sandra did with her kids very helpful with Eric and Carl
************

Mo's most likely to become non-verbal when she's angry or frustrated, so it doesn't work for Mo, either. She tends to like time by herself to calm down, though, so generally the best thing I can do for her is provide an escape route. The biggest problems have come up when there isn't a clear escape - when I've dropped the ball in terms of looking for one ahead of times - but that happens less and less as she gets older and has an easier time working things out *and* I've built up a store of strategies and experience.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Emily S

> When I read your original post, I was wondering (as I am now), why you didn't just close the door? Unless it was VERY important to the 2-year-old that it be open.
>


Yes, it was also very important to the 2 year old. That's why they were physically fighting over it when I stepped in. My initial goal was to stop them from fighting so we could find a solution. Take turns, set a timer, get someone distracted. But as soon as I stepped in to stop the fight between them, it became a fight between me and her, because she was still trying to reach to close the door.

Emily

plaidpanties666

Sharon Rudd <bearspawprint@...> wrote:
>> The boy may have felt rewarded that Katy was
> apparently punished....

It doesn't have to be about rewards and punishments. He might have felt better thinking the other kid was also being punished - it might have felt more fair to him. That's not a terrible thing, for someone to feel life is a little fair now and then, especially if the person in question tends to bully. Bullies generally don't have much sense that the world is fair - that's part of why people bully other people.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

"Emily S" <saturnfire16@...> wrote:
> My initial goal was to stop them from fighting so we could find a solution.
*************

With younger kids its sometimes better to jump in with a solution and then work out the other issues later. That sounds backwards, doesn't it? But when emotions are running high, its not always possible for people to stop and work things out - heck, that's true of adults, much less little kids.

Outside of any kind of stressful moment, its valuable to brainstorm other ways to break things up, and knowing the temperaments of the kids is important in that. If one of the kids tends to get really "locked in" then it can be much easier all round to intervene with the other, for example.

>>as soon as I stepped in to stop the fight

This really makes me think of transitions - how often little kids will melt down over "stopping" or "leaving" but if you offer them something to move *to* instead, they're okay. That's another benefit of stepping in with a solution - even if the solution is to offer a snack, or scoop the little one up and say "let's go blow bubbles". Its a way of offering a Yes instead of leaving them hanging with a No.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

> This really makes me think of transitions - how often little kids will melt down over "stopping" or "leaving" but if you offer them something to move *to* instead, they're okay.
*************

And it just occured to me that this is why her getting hurt "works" - it gives her something to move to, something to do "next" besides some vague "work things out".

---Meredith

lalow66

"
>
> First save the loser. Nothing needs to be said but the one who seems
> to be losing should be extricated from the situation.
> Let each tell his side but NOT (not, not for any reason, I know some
> people think it's a good idea, but it's not) in front of the other one.
>
> While the mom is going back and forth to help them sort out what
> happened, they are also calming down. So should the mom be.
> Breathing and loving and calming.
>
> At the end, each of them had something to use to avoid or to diffuse a
> similar situation in the future. Each of them including the mom,
> because very often the mom can discover part of the problem could have
> been avoided by her being nearer or conditions being different.
>
> Sandra
"

Tonight two of my kids were fighting. They are both boys, ages 5 and 7. I wasnt home but the in a nutshell they were lying around watching t.v., perhaps a little tired or getting bored. And my 7 year old, got in the 5 year olds space and hitting and name calling followed. My husband got them to stop but then left the room and I guess my 7 year old was still upset so he kicked his brother. What followed was my 7 year old in his room screaming mad cause that is how my husband dealt with it (sent him to his room). I got home at about this time. I immediately went up and calmed him down and asked him his side. But one thing that really dawned on me while I was listening to him was that his perception of what happened was really all that mattered to him at that point and pointing out that it wasnt what my husband said happened was a waste of time. In other words I didnt call him a liar. I accepted his story but asked for clarification and when it was all done and he was calm we talked about how when my husband left the room but he was still mad, what he might have done instead of kicking his brother. He never admitted to the final kicking, but he did accept and discuss alternatives to it. My husband and I later, also discussed, perhaps not leaving the room in that situation next time.

Sandra Dodd

-=-But one thing that really dawned on me while I was listening to him
was that his perception of what happened was really all that mattered
to him at that point and pointing out that it wasnt what my husband
said happened was a waste of time. In other words I didnt call him a
liar. I accepted his story but asked for clarification and when it was
all done and he was calm we talked about how when my husband left the
room but he was still mad, what he might have done instead of kicking
his brother. He never admitted to the final kicking, but he did accept
and discuss alternatives to it.-=-

I never called my kids liars. Maybe that wasn't being suggested, but
the way it worked with us was that the story would be clearer, and
both boys could vent. If I said "Marty says you twisted his finger,"
then Kirby wouldn't say "No I didn't." He might say "Yeah, because he
was sticking his hand on front of my face."

The conversations would be about respecting personal space, and using
words if possible instead of physical interventions.

For us it worked really well, and I've seen my kids use the same
method to help settle disagreements among their friends. Holly got a
stolen iPod back once, even went to the home of someone she hardly
knew and talked to the mom. And it wasn't her iPod. She just saw the
situation and knew that in two or three steps she could solve the
situation peacefully, and did. So I'm a little bummed that a couple
of people have said "It didn't work for us." It's worth trying, for
those who have neither tried it before nor rejected it.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lalow66

"
> I never called my kids liars. Maybe that wasn't being suggested, but "

just reread. no i wasnt suggesting that. we have tried your approach around here several time and it was what I was attempting to do with my kids. but sometimes we get hung up on details and have chosen to accept both stories.

k

PArt of the reason you might be getting "doesn't work for us" is that
for so many people the process of working things out/getting to the
bottom of issues meant being corrected/called a liar is te process.
Where placing blame rightly is the process of justice-- how it works.
In terms of going to court or asking a judge to settle a matter that
is what justice looks like.

I don't know what to call it, but mediating in order to create a
peaceful safe place isn't the same process as what I think of when I
hear the phrase "get to the bottom" or even "work things out"
(although that's closer).

What is being suggested about not finding liars or placing blame is an
important assumption to have when restoring peace.

~Katherine

On 6/29/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-But one thing that really dawned on me while I was listening to him
> was that his perception of what happened was really all that mattered
> to him at that point and pointing out that it wasnt what my husband
> said happened was a waste of time. In other words I didnt call him a
> liar. I accepted his story but asked for clarification and when it was
> all done and he was calm we talked about how when my husband left the
> room but he was still mad, what he might have done instead of kicking
> his brother. He never admitted to the final kicking, but he did accept
> and discuss alternatives to it.-=-
>
> I never called my kids liars. Maybe that wasn't being suggested, but
> the way it worked with us was that the story would be clearer, and
> both boys could vent. If I said "Marty says you twisted his finger,"
> then Kirby wouldn't say "No I didn't." He might say "Yeah, because he
> was sticking his hand on front of my face."
>
> The conversations would be about respecting personal space, and using
> words if possible instead of physical interventions.
>
> For us it worked really well, and I've seen my kids use the same
> method to help settle disagreements among their friends. Holly got a
> stolen iPod back once, even went to the home of someone she hardly
> knew and talked to the mom. And it wasn't her iPod. She just saw the
> situation and knew that in two or three steps she could solve the
> situation peacefully, and did. So I'm a little bummed that a couple
> of people have said "It didn't work for us." It's worth trying, for
> those who have neither tried it before nor rejected it.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-we have tried your approach around here several time and it was
what I was attempting to do with my kids. but sometimes we get hung up
on details and have chosen to accept both stories.-=-

I don't understand at which point it matters whether a story is
"accepted." Maybe you should read it again. I was never recommending
a trial or a judgment.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]