luckyroy3

I am trying very hard to stay committed to a non-punitive style of parenting(I have been wishy-washy on this topic-usually b/c there are certain behaviors I have a strong desire to extinguish), but lately I have noticed a bad habit in my older children of name-calling and rudeness towards their siblings when they are upset. Some of the things they say: "idiot," "shut-up," and "shut your mouth." This is not the way they have been spoken to- but I guess they picked it up along the way, and now every time they get upset it flies out of their mouths(they don't say these things to me, just their brothers). The thing that really upsets me about it is that their little brothers and sisters hear it, and I don't want them to learn it. Any ideas on how to handle this w/o punishing? It seems like discussing it doesn't seem to help. Thanks in advance for any tips :). P.S. This doesn't happen all day long-just here and there. Am I being too critical? DH thinks so.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 28, 2009, at 9:34 PM, luckyroy3 wrote:

> lately I have noticed a bad habit in my older children of name-
> calling and rudeness towards their siblings when they are upset.

What's causing the name calling? That's where you need to begin.

Conventional parenting focuses on the negative actions as though if
you can just make kids act right then they'll be right. If you manage
to stop the name calling without dealing with what led up to it, what
will they do when the tensions build and they feel like name calling?
Punch each other? Secretly put tacks in each other's shoes?

Better is to work on the relationships. Work on the tensions and help
them find better ways to react before relations break down.

Conventional parenting is about putting out fires. Mindful parenting
is about fire prevention so there are fewer fires to put out.

Begin here:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

There are links which will undoubtedly lead to more links. :-)

I'd recommend:

How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk by Faber
and Mazlich
Siblings Without Rivalry also by Faber and Mazlich

The How To Talk book is a great first step away from conventional
parenting. Faber and Mazlich don't go far enough but they can get
your thoughts turned around.

Even better -- I've heard but haven't read -- is Naomi Aldort's
Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. I haven't heard anything bad
about it.

Joyce

[email protected]

Yes. Naomi Aldort took the idea and turned it all the way around.
Name calling really bothered me a lot because the way I was raised it
was treated as very bad, and it can become very damaging in that
setting but --- here's a YouTube on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he8G3vMmQNA which changed what I think
about it. It's short.

~Katherine



On Apr 29, 2009, at 6:03 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> Even better -- I've heard but haven't read -- is Naomi Aldort's
> Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. I haven't heard anything bad
> about it.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am trying very hard to stay committed to a non-punitive style of
parenting(I have been wishy-washy on this topic-usually b/c there are
certain behaviors I have a strong desire to extinguish)-=-

Extinguish as in "put the fire out"? "Kill"?

If you're wishy-washy, that's about rules, and not about principles.

Please read here:
http://sandradodd.com/rules

You're looking at "commitment" and "style of parenting" and "behavior"
instead of looking at each person's feelings and needs, including
yours. If you've gotten to a point where the children don't feel
loving toward each other and you don't feel loving toward them, back
up and change.

http://sandradodd.com/morning
http://sandradodd.com/joy

You the mom will need to become the kind of mom whose kids don't call
names. That's how it works.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

luckyroy3

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I am trying very hard to stay committed to a non-punitive style of
> parenting(I have been wishy-washy on this topic-usually b/c there are
> certain behaviors I have a strong desire to extinguish)-=-
>
> Extinguish as in "put the fire out"? "Kill"?
>
> If you're wishy-washy, that's about rules, and not about principles.
>
> Please read here:
> http://sandradodd.com/rules
>
> You're looking at "commitment" and "style of parenting" and "behavior"
> instead of looking at each person's feelings and needs, including
> yours. If you've gotten to a point where the children don't feel
> loving toward each other and you don't feel loving toward them, back
> up and change.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/morning
> http://sandradodd.com/joy
>
> You the mom will need to become the kind of mom whose kids don't call
> names. That's how it works.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
THose are some really good points, Sandra. They sting a bit, but there is a lot of truth there! When I said "wishy-washy," that might have been the wrong word. What I meant was that I have vacilated between more conventional forms of parenting and gentle parenting. I read some books early on in my parenting that gave me a very punitive mind set.I am really trying to stop thinking that way- but as Joyce pointed out, punitive parenting focuses on the negative. For example, when one son calls the other one an"idiot," my first reaction is: "I have to stop this name calling. If I make it undesirable to name call, he won't do it anymore.." Now I know this is wrong, and what I think is required is a whole mind shift-focusing on the children as people that I love, instead of focusing on behavior. I have a lot of food or thought. Thanks so much for the input, and I'll keep you "posted" as to what happens :).

Sandra Dodd

-=-THose are some really good points, Sandra. They sting a bit, but
there is a lot of truth there!-=-

They possibly have stung as much as "idiot," "shut-up," and "shut your
mouth." If one of your children is being treated that way in her own
home, you're not keeping them safe enough.

-=-This is not the way they have been spoken to- but...-= - (from the
original post)

But they were being punished somehow, so they were being treated in
those ways, perhaps without the exact words. Punishment is about
declaring/proving that someone is wrong/sinful/stupid and that he
needs to shut up (one way or another). No matter how "peaceful" the
punishment might be, it still involves power and judgment and has a
loser. A winner and a loser. Ultimately several losers, because the
parents lose out on the chance to undo it, and the grandchildren might
suffer similar losses of choice, freedom and happiness if the children
aren't shown a better way.

I'm glad you came to ask us for ideas!

-=-When I said "wishy-washy," that might have been the wrong word.
What I meant was that I have vacilated between more conventional forms
of parenting and gentle parenting. I read some books early on in my
parenting that gave me a very punitive mind set.I am really trying to
stop thinking that way--=-

While you're changing your thinking, consider that a synonym doesn't
change the underlying thoughts. Whether you say you were wishy-washy
or vacillating or jumping back and forth or undecided or thrashing
mightily about, you couldn't figure out how to act because you hadn't
decided how you wanted to be.

It's good that you don't want to vacillate mightily back and forth
anymore.

This might help:
http://sandradodd.com/choices

If there are a thousand choices, or even three choices, how do you
choose? Some people like to live without choices, so they can say "I
had no choice." People say that all the time, even about spanking
their kids. It's not very bright.

So how do you choose? You decide where you want to go before you
decide to turn left or right, don't you?
Just like that.

The way to know the right direction is to identify the wrong direction.
http://sandradodd.com/screwitup

Sandra







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/29/2009 3:03 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
> What's causing the name calling? That's where you need to begin.
>
>
As a suggestion of where to begin.....

Namecalling is kind of a way to push someone away. Maybe the kids need
more space - more physical space. Maybe they need more chance to spend
time alone. Maybe they're needing more one-on-one time with mom or dad.

It really helps when you have multiple kids to mix up the combinations a
lot. This means be aware - take only one kid off to the grocery store
with you and have fun together in the car and in the store.

Be sure you're responding to each child as an individual, not to "the
kids" as a group.

Anyway - I think Joyce's point is a good one - think about the
circumstances under which the name calling is happening - don't focus on
the name calling itself.

Is someone feeling really hurt by any of the namecalling or is it that
you don't like the atmosphere it is creating?

-pam

Jenny C

>>>Any ideas on how to handle this w/o punishing? It seems like
discussing it doesn't seem to help. Thanks in advance for any tips :).
P.S. This doesn't happen all day long-just here and there. Am I being
too critical? DH thinks so.>>>
>

Our general attitude in our house is one of fun and being kind to one
another. Sometimes people feel snarky anyway, or get irritated with one
another. We all have our moody moments and sometimes we say things we
don't mean to and sometimes sibling personalities clash.

What you are describing sounds like meanness, or lack of an ability to
communicate before anger sets in. Both of my kids have figured out ways
to take themselves out of the situation, Chamille, more so than Margaux,
largely because she's older and more thoughtful about it. Margaux still
struggles with how to be nice when things aren't going smoothly.

It's hard to tell, based on what you wrote, about the context in which
mean things have been said. Sometimes younger siblings get too much
into the older siblings spaces, and there is nowhere for them to go to
get away from younger siblings. We work on that underlying issue more
than the name calling. Name calling doesn't just happen for no reason,
there's always a reason. It's not the fault of a younger sibling, when
the older sibling has nowhere to go.

None of that, is what I set out to say. I was going to say, that more
than anything, we are always saying nice things about each other. We
point out each others good qualities, more than pointing out our faults.
When you intentionally set out to focus on the good in others, you'll
see it more and people will behave more like their good qualities. That
is what happens with my kids and how they see each other.

I'm not sure how else to say that, but how it plays out, is
complimenting each other and noticing and pointing out when we do good
things or cool things. Belittling and name calling will happen less and
less, the more you do this.

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/29/2009 6:10 AM, katherand@... wrote:
> Yes. Naomi Aldort took the idea and turned it all the way around.
> Name calling really bothered me a lot because the way I was raised it
> was treated as very bad, and it can become very damaging in that
> setting but --- here's a YouTube on it:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he8G3vMmQNA which changed what I think
> about it. It's short.
>
>

For those who didn't watch the video - siblings sitting in the back seat
of a car, one calls the other stupid. Naomi raises her hand and says
she's stupid too. Sometimes everyone is stupid. The president is stupid.
Etc.

Her idea is that if you admit that, yes, sometimes you're stupid and
sometimes smart and sometimes generous and sometimes greedy, etc., then
other people calling you names won't hurt you because you'll accept that
it is true.


But it didn't stop the brother from wanting to hurt his sister. The rest
of the story is that a week later the mom calls Naomi and tells her that
their new problem is that the son is complaining that he can't hurt his
sister anymore by calling her stupid so he is trying to find another way
to hurt her.

Why is this better?

-pam

[email protected]

I didn't introduce it well. The video link is not a standalone but
part of a series. Which means the end of the video I referred to is
not conclusive; it's a few thoughts in the middle of a much longer
presentation. It's not a license to call people stupid. I took it as
talking to one's children to reframe the qualities of what it means to
be human, with the attitude that name calling is kinda silly both ways;
how not to take it so seriously when someone calls you a name, so much
so that perhaps you identify with it and how to broaden one's view of
others even when you're angry or annoyed or in disagreement with them.
It's an overall principled look at helping children figure out how to
relate to each other.

I found it helpful. It might not be for everybody. If it's not
helpful, then use something else.

~Katherine




On Apr 29, 2009, at 12:52 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:

>
>
> On 4/29/2009 6:10 AM, katherand@... wrote:
>> Yes. Naomi Aldort took the idea and turned it all the way around.
>> Name calling really bothered me a lot because the way I was raised it
>> was treated as very bad, and it can become very damaging in that
>> setting but --- here's a YouTube on it:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he8G3vMmQNA which changed what I think
>> about it. It's short.
>>
>>
>
> For those who didn't watch the video - siblings sitting in the back
> seat
> of a car, one calls the other stupid. Naomi raises her hand and says
> she's stupid too. Sometimes everyone is stupid. The president is
> stupid.
> Etc.
>
> Her idea is that if you admit that, yes, sometimes you're stupid and
> sometimes smart and sometimes generous and sometimes greedy, etc., then
> other people calling you names won't hurt you because you'll accept
> that
> it is true.
>
>
> But it didn't stop the brother from wanting to hurt his sister. The
> rest
> of the story is that a week later the mom calls Naomi and tells her
> that
> their new problem is that the son is complaining that he can't hurt his
> sister anymore by calling her stupid so he is trying to find another
> way
> to hurt her.
>
> Why is this better?
>
> -pam
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I didn't introduce it well. The video link is not a standalone but
part of a series. Which means the end of the video I referred to is
not conclusive; it's a few thoughts in the middle of a much longer
presentation. It's not a license to call people stupid. I took it as
talking to one's children to reframe the qualities of what it means to
be human, with the attitude that name calling is kinda silly both ways;
how not to take it so seriously when someone calls you a name, so much
so that perhaps you identify with it and how to broaden one's view of
others even when you're angry or annoyed or in disagreement with them.
It's an overall principled look at helping children figure out how to
relate to each other.

-=-I found it helpful. It might not be for everybody. If it's not
helpful, then use something else.-=-

More explanation might've helped, but if it's "principled" but the
principles aren't what will help people understand unschooling better,
it's worth reconsidering, or discussing what about it is "getting
warm" and what is "getting cold" in terms of what will help unschooling.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

luckyroy3

Hello to all!
I just want to thank you all for your input. When Pam asked if the cchildren are being hurt by the name-calling, it is my conviction that even though they might not appear"hurt" by the words, it is damaging just the same. As Sandra pointed out, and in my own opinion, no-one should have to live in an environment(especially home) where he/she is subject to name-calling. It sticks with us whether we like it or not. Pam, I know you didn't mean to say that it doesn't matter, even if the name calling doesn't bother them, but I want to make myself clear in that I don't think name calling or belittling is ever O.K.
I think it might be like deschooling-For every year of punitive parenting, it's going to take that much time of mindful parenting before things change.
Thanks for all the wonderful links and places to read. I will be busy the next couple days! I am so thankful to have friends to share with.
-Eileen

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/29/2009 12:33 PM, luckyroy3 wrote:
> Pam, I know you didn't mean to say that it doesn't matter, even if the name calling doesn't bother them, but I want to make myself clear in that I don't think name calling or belittling is ever O.K.
>

What I meant was to look at what is REALLY going on. Sometimes there is
name-calling that is very hurtful, intended to be hurtful. Sometimes
there is namecalling that is lighthearted expression of a little
annoyance or a little warning sign that someone isn't happy. Sometimes
it is humor. Sometimes it is the way kids have heard others express
frustration and it feels good to do it - doesn't really have that much
to do with the other person.

My point was not that it should be ignored, but that you should ask
yourself questions about it. One question might be whether someone is
really being hurt. Namecalling is the result of something and possibly
the cause of something. Look more deeply at what is really happening
right there with your own real kids.

-pam

Verna

that I don't think name calling or belittling is ever O.K.
> >
>
> What I meant was to look at what is REALLY going on. Sometimes there is
> name-calling that is very hurtful, intended to be hurtful. Sometimes
> there is namecalling that is lighthearted expression of a little
> annoyance or a little warning sign that someone isn't happy. Sometimes
> it is humor. Sometimes it is the way kids have heard others express
> frustration and it feels good to do it - doesn't really have that much
> to do with the other person.
>
>

Today, my 4 year old called me a "stupid net", he was laughing and happy when he said it and I was playing with him. I turned around (we were in the car getting ready to go home and said, "you mean nut?". My 7 year old just stared at me and then said, " he just called you stupid, who cares if he meant nut?". My 7 year old was so incredulous because it wasnt too long ago I would have made a big deal about the whole thing. we dont say stupid!!!

Sandra Dodd

-= It's not a license to call people stupid. I took it as
talking to one's children to reframe the qualities of what it means to
be human, with the attitude that name calling is kinda silly both ways;
how not to take it so seriously when someone calls you a name-=-

I agree with her statement about "either it's true or it's not," and I
said something like that to Brett last night because he was upset to
have been accused of something he didn't do at work.

Advising someone not to take it so seriously is peachy. Encouraging
or condoning words like "stupid," though, I think is not NEARLY as
good as discussing what the child means by "stupid," and what the
situation is that's leading to the desire to be hurtful.

The example Naomi Aldort used was to say "I'm stupid, the President's
stupid, everyone's stupid" (not a word for word quote, sorry; I don't
want to listen to it twice). She used the example of knocking over
a glass of milk. I know that when people are speaking at conferences
it's easy to come up with imperfect examples, but let's assume the
example isn't one she would edit out if she had a chance to pick a
different one.

Spilling milk isn't "stupid." An accident doesn't make someone
"stupid."

When I'm discussing situations and decisions with my kids to help them
see what the range of options is in any situation, and we're talking
about choices or the consequences of choices, there's better and
there's worse and there's regrettable and there's brilliant sometimes,
but it's not "stupid" to make a mistake from which one can do better
the next time.

If "stupid" can be clarified as something else--careless, thoughtless,
irrational, irritating--then THAT can be dealt with, but there's no
cure for stupidity, and use of the term seems to have no purpose but
to condemn, judge and insult.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>>> When I'm discussing situations and decisions with my kids to help
them
see what the range of options is in any situation, and we're talking
about choices or the consequences of choices, there's better and
there's worse and there's regrettable and there's brilliant sometimes,
but it's not "stupid" to make a mistake from which one can do better
the next time. <<<<

Well yes and this is very close to what I was getting at when I said I
didn't like the cultural connotation of the word "consequence(s)"...
Whether or not something yields a result you can live with depends on
all kinds of things about regret and brilliance, and nothing to do with
calling it "stupid" or a "consequence some person deserves" which to me
signals an anger reflex of some kind (annoyance or whatever) from
messing up or something that happened unintentionally.

In my experience, it helps to find ways to realize "ok there's my
reflex going off" and then figuring out that "hey, this is what just
happened." Spilled milk enters into it for some people who haven't
gotten over being upset about messes. Otherwise spilled milk wouldn't
matter. It only matters as to how one relates with other people.
Picture me getting upset when *anything* is spilled if I have a horror
over mess. It helps to say "hey, this is what just happened.. some
milk is spilled" .... and realizing that the word "stupid" may be my
reflex going off helps get over being upset about messes and go right
to "oh let's clean it up."

Just substitute other words for "stupid" like "wrong." Things can go
wrong but feeling that some person is wrong is usually a roadblock
unless it happens to be true in the particular instance. Looking at
what happened and going from there makes more sense than saying "wrong
wrong." If it's true that some person is wrong, it only helps if the
person who's wrong realizes it and can change. And, right, spilling
milk wouldn't be the wrong part.

~Katherine

Erin

Sandra wrote--"They possibly have stung as much as "idiot," "shut-up," and "shut your
mouth." If one of your children is being treated that way in her own
home, you're not keeping them safe enough."

Thank you for pointing this out, Sandra. My question is HOW do I keep my children safe from each others' words without making the "name-caller" feel bad for choosing to say hurtful things? I know I need to figure out the underlying cause of the name-calling. I'm not sure my kids know why they do it (it's one child in particular towards her younger siblings), so it's hard to come to the root of the issue. I don't want to talk it into the ground or make a huge issue of it, but I also don't want it to continue. I feel like I need some concrete ideas to navigate the way!

Sandra Dodd

-=- HOW do I keep my children safe from each others' words without
making the "name-caller" feel bad for choosing to say hurtful things? -
=-

The responses to the original question have been about learning enough
yourself about how to create a good environment for the kids so they
won't have the frustrations that are leading to the name calling.
Don't look at "he hit her," look at what she did just before that, and
why she did THAT, and what happened before THAT and it might come back
to the mom should've been providing more for them to do, or making
sure they had eaten, that their toys or games were safe, that none of
the kids had felt ignored...

Generally speaking (and also pretty specifically speaking, but without
a 100% guarantee), the children of attentive moms have fewer problems
than the children of moms who are saying "later" or "not now" or "just
go play."

-=- HOW do I keep my children safe from each others' words without
making the "name-caller" feel bad for choosing to say hurtful things? -
=-

Now it's been rephrased to the realm of choices, which makes it a
whole different situation.
If the "name caller" chose to say a hurtful thing, why wouldn't you
want him to feel bad?
If a person never "feels bad" about anything, what possible motivation
would there be to do better? There wouldn't be any such thing as
"better" if the parent defines all things as equally good.

If Holly calls Marty a douche, perhaps Marty was exhibiting douchish
behavior just before that. (Both things have actually occurred, in
our home, and so that's not a hypothetical.) If Marty was being
antagonistic, or causing other people to laugh at Holly's expense,
Holly might not need to feel so bad. If Marty was actually in the
process of trying to help Holly with something and she called him a
douche, then she absolutely should feel bad, and I won't hesitate to
point that out.

The answer to all of these kinds of things is "it depends," but the
concrete advice is to be there more, doing things with them (them as a
group and them individually) instead of leaving them in one place
while you're in another place.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> >>Thank you for pointing this out, Sandra. My question is HOW do I
keep my children safe from each others' words without making the
"name-caller" feel bad for choosing to say hurtful things? >>>

What's wrong with a kid feeling bad for hurting someone's feelings by
calling them names? Shouldn't kids feel remorse from doing something
wrong? They aren't immune from having a conscience. This is a good
thing, I would think! With the whole gammit of emotions and human
failings and human doings, kids will eventually feel it all, just like
everyone else. It's what we do with those feelings that makes a
difference.

>>>I know I need to figure out the underlying cause of the name-calling.
I'm not sure my kids know why they do it (it's one child in particular
towards her younger siblings), so it's hard to come to the root of the
issue. I don't want to talk it into the ground or make a huge issue of
it, but I also don't want it to continue. I feel like I need some
concrete ideas to navigate the way!>>>
>

Perhaps she needs space. Perhaps she doesn't even realize she needs
space to get away from a younger sibling. Does she have somewhere
private to go and be by herself and do things privately without any
siblings? This is a big one for older siblings! They really do need to
have somewhere safe to go and be without having to feel bad about
excluding a younger sibling, or reacting in such a way that they are in
a sense pushing the younger sibling away through meanness like name
calling.

[email protected]

>>>> If Holly calls Marty a douche, perhaps Marty was exhibiting
douchish
behavior just before that. (Both things have actually occurred, in
our home, and so that's not a hypothetical.) <<<<

Ok this is getting into the realm of what I was thinking about earlier.
People do things that drive others batty sometimes. Name calling
doesn't address the issues, yet it has a certain "ahem" to it.

It's possible that an older sibling is annoyed at a younger sibling's
behavior and doesn't realize that the younger sibling has yet to figure
out to do better BUT it takes time because it's not just a logical
development. Learning to consider the development of younger siblings
can be crazymaking for the older siblings who are concurrently
developing their own understanding. I remember this clearly with my
own sisters. And sometimes it wasn't about development. The little
one is capable of looking for a reaction from a sibling too.

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

OH NO! I left out a word and it changed the meaning. I'm really
sorry.

I didn't see it until it was quoted back.

I posted:

-=-They possibly have stung as much as "idiot," "shut-up," and "shut
your
mouth." If one of your children is being treated that way in her own
home, you're not keeping them safe enough.-=-

I really meant to write, and thougth I had written, "They couldn't
possibly have stung as much..."

I'm really, really sorry.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 29, 2009, at 3:33 PM, luckyroy3 wrote:

> When Pam asked if the cchildren are being hurt by the name-calling,
> it is my conviction that even though they might not appear"hurt" by
> the words, it is damaging just the same.

Maybe look at it this way: when problem solving it's helpful to look
at what's really happening rather than what you imagine is happening.

No one is saying that name calling can't be harmful. But rather than
a rule that all name calling is harmful, it's more helpful to look at
the situation as a whole.

When I was a kid, pretty much the ultimate steam releaser was "Drop
dead!" Now I can't imagine saying that as an adult but it didn't mean
the same thing then as an adult would hear now. Then it meant "I'm
really really really ticked off at you right now and I need get away
from you."
> I want to make myself clear in that I don't think name calling or
> belittling is ever O.K.
>

The kids shouldn't need to get to the point of name calling before
mom becomes aware of what's going on and building up.

The name calling is like the steam coming out of the pressure cooker.
If your focus is on the steam being the problem, the obvious solution
is to plug up the release valve so you don't see the steam. Big
mistake! You've hidden the indication that there's a build up of
pressure and the whole thing's going to explode.

If you don't want the steam, you need to find the source of the heat
and shut it off.

If you shut off the name calling, you're potentially driving the
release into silent torments. Mindful parenting isn't about creating
good behavior -- pressure cookers that aren't releasing steam -- but
about good relationships -- pressure cookers that aren't sitting on
flames.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 30, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Erin wrote:

> My question is HOW do I keep my children safe from each others'
> words without making the "name-caller" feel bad for choosing to say
> hurtful things?

They *should* feel bad. But they shouldn't be *made* to feel bad.
They shouldn't be humiliated or shamed.

If they've said something hurtful to hurt someone, then it's because
they're hurting. There's something wrong going on and they're lashing
out because of it.

If they're saying something hurtful without realizing how badly it
hurts, they need help understanding. That is they may be blowing off
steam with hurtful words, but a sensitive sibling might be taking it
to heart.

But if they're very young, they may not understand the words, only
the powerful reaction they're creating. They're not really intending
to hurt, just get a reaction. Then playing along or not reacting is a
better strategy.

Being aware of the dynamics and what's really going on is more
important than focusing on the behavior.

You might try subscribing to Scott Noelle's Daily Groove.

http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

He's very good at helping parents see a new view point in just a few
words.

Joyce

luckyroy3

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>

> >
>
>
>
> The name calling is like the steam coming out of the pressure cooker.
> If your focus is on the steam being the problem, the obvious solution
> is to plug up the release valve so you don't see the steam. Big
> mistake! You've hidden the indication that there's a build up of
> pressure and the whole thing's going to explode.
>
> If you don't want the steam, you need to find the source of the heat
> and shut it off.
>
> If you shut off the name calling, you're potentially driving the
> release into silent torments. Mindful parenting isn't about creating
> good behavior -- pressure cookers that aren't releasing steam -- but
> about good relationships -- pressure cookers that aren't sitting on
> flames.
>
> Joyce
>
I think this is a really good analogy, Joyce, and you hit the nail on the head. I have been thinking a lot about what is actually going on with the name calling in our home, and I realize that it is just what you are saying. The kids aren't being malicious or ill-willed. It is a bad habit-almost a default mechanism- when frustration builds. I think what happens is that I have been too focused on stopping behaviors. We do have a lot of children and a lot of personal stuff going on in our lives right now, and I think the tendency when I am overwhelmed is to stop behaviors rather than invest the time to foster healthy relationships. I am not saying this is right; in fact, it breaks my heart. There is no excuse good enough to not take the time to build strong relationships with our children.

kelly_sturman

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 30, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Erin wrote:
>
> > My question is HOW do I keep my children safe from each others'
> > words without making the "name-caller" feel bad for choosing to say
> > hurtful things?
>
> They *should* feel bad. But they shouldn't be *made* to feel bad.
> They shouldn't be humiliated or shamed.
>
> If they've said something hurtful to hurt someone, then it's because
> they're hurting. There's something wrong going on and they're lashing
> out because of it.
>
> If they're saying something hurtful without realizing how badly it
> hurts, they need help understanding. That is they may be blowing off
> steam with hurtful words, but a sensitive sibling might be taking it
> to heart.
>
> But if they're very young, they may not understand the words, only
> the powerful reaction they're creating. They're not really intending
> to hurt, just get a reaction. Then playing along or not reacting is a
> better strategy.
>
> Being aware of the dynamics and what's really going on is more
> important than focusing on the behavior.
>
> You might try subscribing to Scott Noelle's Daily Groove.
>
> http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
>
> He's very good at helping parents see a new view point in just a few
> words.
>
> Joyce
>

kelly_sturman

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 30, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Erin wrote:
>
> > My question is HOW do I keep my children safe from each others'
> > words without making the "name-caller" feel bad for choosing to say
> > hurtful things?
>
> They *should* feel bad. But they shouldn't be *made* to feel bad.
> They shouldn't be humiliated or shamed.

This is the crux of it for me: seeing the difference between
allowing a child to feel bad for choosing to treat somebody
else in a hurtful way, on the one hand, versus shaming the
child, on the other hand. Recognizing that it is okay for a child
to feel ashamed of him/herself... so long as *I* did not put that
idea of "you should be ashamed of that behavior" out there...
or "in there" as in, into the child's head.

Am I getting this?

Kelly Sturman

Sandra Dodd

-=-This is the crux of it for me: seeing the difference between
allowing a child to feel bad for choosing to treat somebody
else in a hurtful way, on the one hand, versus shaming the
child, on the other hand. Recognizing that it is okay for a child
to feel ashamed of him/herself... so long as *I* did not put that
idea of "you should be ashamed of that behavior" out there...
or "in there" as in, into the child's head.

-=-Am I getting this?

-=-Kelly Sturman-=-


I don't mind putting an idea into a child's head. I would put that
idea in ANYone's head who was rude at my house or rude to one of my
kids.

Treating my kids like people sometimes means saying something like
"That wasn't very nice."

There's a big difference between "You should be ashamed of yourself.
I'm going to wash your mouth out with soap. If you can't be nicer
than that, go into your room and stay there," and "Next time could you
be nicer?"

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 5/1/2009 11:18 AM, kelly_sturman wrote:
> This is the crux of it for me: seeing the difference between
> allowing a child to feel bad for choosing to treat somebody
> else in a hurtful way, on the one hand, versus shaming the
> child, on the other hand. Recognizing that it is okay for a child
> to feel ashamed of him/herself... so long as*I* did not put that
> idea of "you should be ashamed of that behavior" out there...
> or "in there" as in, into the child's head.
>
I don't know - that still seems a little too namby-pamby.

I've asked, "Why did you say that?" Or, I've said, "You said X to
so-and-so and her feelings are hurt."

And my child has thought about it and felt really bad for doing it.

Some might call that "shaming" - but I think it is helping.

The next step is to help or encourage them to do something about it or,
if that's not possible, to do better next time.

I think think the idea of not shaming our kids is more along the lines
of don't send them a howler (Harry Potter reference). When I felt the
need to speak to my kids about something they'd done (thrown sand,
called someone names, grabbed a toy from someone else, etc.), I would
take them aside, not embarrass them. One time another mom criticized me
for not reprimanding my child for something. I told her she had no idea
what I'd said to my own child because anything I had to say to her was
done in private so I wouldn't further embarrass her. The mom said that I
should do it in public so that the other kids knew that she was getting
in trouble, too, and otherwise it looked like she got away with
everything when they didn't.

-pam

Bea

>
>The mom said that I
> should do it in public so that the other kids knew that she was getting
> in trouble, too, and otherwise it looked like she got away with
> everything when they didn't.
>


I'd be interested to know how you respond to people like that?

I have a hard time with parents giving me dirty looks at the playground when I let my daughter do things that they don't allow their children to do (running barefoot on the playground comes to mind.) I suppose part of it is learning to focus on your child and ignore the criticisms...

Bea

Pam Sorooshian

Well, I got into a few screaming matches with that particular mom, over
the years, so emulating me is probably not a great idea! I had to learn
a lot of things the hard way.

What I would do now would be to, one time and one time only, say,
"That's not how I do things." After that, I'd ignore that person
entirely. I mean, literally look blank faced and then look away and get
occupied elsewhere. And then avoid the person after that, if possible.

But, this is a person with severe problems - a parent who also tried to
impose her micromanaging incredibly controlling ways on other people.
If it was a person I thought I could actually communicate with, I might
respond with, "She's embarrassed enough about having behaved badly in
the first place, so I try not to embarrass her further by my reaction."

-pam

On 5/1/2009 1:52 PM, Bea wrote:
>> >The mom said that I
>> > should do it in public so that the other kids knew that she was getting
>> > in trouble, too, and otherwise it looked like she got away with
>> > everything when they didn't.
>> >
>>
>
>
> I'd be interested to know how you respond to people like that?
>