Sandra Dodd

Someone new to the list posted this. I think it's a good one to
answer, but that the questioner might feel overwhelmed by the answers.

I've sent a warning.

So in anonymous form, here is a situation which could use some
unschooling advice.


-=-Does anyone have any tips on teaching my 1st grade son to
spell? He can read like a champ, but can't spell very well
at all and I'm at my wits end on not knowing what to do to
teach him. He can spell small words like he, she, it, can,
cat. He can spell his name and of course he can spell
NASCAR(one of his passions). I would love any games or
suggestions I could try with him. -=-


I did send the author these links:

Here are some notes on the list itself
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning.html
and some things I've collected on spelling:

http://sandradodd.com/r/alphabet
http://sandradodd.com/spelling
....
Here's a sample of my daughter's spelling at 13. At six she couldn't
read at all:
http://sandradodd.com/how

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

*Tell him how words are spelled. Always. NICELY :D
*Write/type for him
*Stop quizzing him
*Breathe. There are FAR more important things in the world than a child
knowing how to spell.

Hayden's always asked and I've always answered.
His friends on skype will ask him how to spell things, knowing if he doesn't
know I will spell it for them.
It's truly a non-issue in our life.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> Someone new to the list posted this. I think it's a good one to
> answer, but that the questioner might feel overwhelmed by the answers.
>
> I've sent a warning.
>
> So in anonymous form, here is a situation which could use some
> unschooling advice.
>
> -=-Does anyone have any tips on teaching my 1st grade son to
> spell? He can read like a champ, but can't spell very well
> at all and I'm at my wits end on not knowing what to do to
> teach him. He can spell small words like he, she, it, can,
> cat. He can spell his name and of course he can spell
> NASCAR(one of his passions). I would love any games or
> suggestions I could try with him. -=-
>
> I did send the author these links:
>
> Here are some notes on the list itself
> http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning.html
> and some things I've collected on spelling:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/r/alphabet
> http://sandradodd.com/spelling
> ....
> Here's a sample of my daughter's spelling at 13. At six she couldn't
> read at all:
> http://sandradodd.com/how
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

Not for teaching! Examples of word fun that I model:
Xword puzzles (I <3 TV Guide!)
Text Twist and other such games on NeoPets or FreeArcade or similar sites.
Ooooh when he wakes up there's a game he LOVES for me to play with him...
it's a dungeon game and some squares require a password for advance. A great
way for him to be exposed to new words, figger out clues and because he does
the typing, he actually spells new words (a kinetic connection helps us both
with spelling; me writing, him typing). When he awakes I will ask him for
the URL :D
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


-=-Does anyone have any tips on teaching my 1st grade son to
> spell? He can read like a champ, but can't spell very well
> at all and I'm at my wits end on not knowing what to do to
> teach him. He can spell small words like he, she, it, can,
> cat. He can spell his name and of course he can spell
> NASCAR(one of his passions). I would love any games or
> suggestions I could try with him. -=-
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

fiddaritt

My MIL (former teacher) is forever hounding us about 'teaching
spelling'( fyi. . this includes intercepted letters to the boys
telling them they need to learn to spell with materials included,
screened phone messages reminding them to study spelling, etc etc) At
first, I was angry, I knew my boys were creative spellers (LOL) but I
felt adamant about not ruining their love of words through formalized
spelling lessons. Then it happened. When my eldest turned 8.5 he
could spell the majority of anything he chose to write correctly
whereas just a month or so before almost every word was incorrectly
spelled. No lessons, no grandma spelling materials. .. just life. My
advice. . answer his questions, stop fretting. . . and trust. Oh, and
if someone is harrassing you akin to my MIL, use that to fuel your
trust that he will learn to spell. I wonder if I had not be so annoyed
with MIL whether I would have done more fretting. . .I am thankful
that I had a different focus ( not certain MIL will forgive but. . .)
Your son loves to read, he loves words, spelling will come. . .don't
squash a good thing. Sarah


--- In [email protected], diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
>
> Not for teaching! Examples of word fun that I model:
> Xword puzzles (I <3 TV Guide!)
> Text Twist and other such games on NeoPets or FreeArcade or similar
sites.
> Ooooh when he wakes up there's a game he LOVES for me to play with
him...
> it's a dungeon game and some squares require a password for advance.
A great
> way for him to be exposed to new words, figger out clues and because
he does
> the typing, he actually spells new words (a kinetic connection helps
us both
> with spelling; me writing, him typing). When he awakes I will ask
him for
> the URL :D
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
> hannahsashes.blogspot.com
> dianas365.blogspot.com
>
>
> -=-Does anyone have any tips on teaching my 1st grade son to
> > spell? He can read like a champ, but can't spell very well
> > at all and I'm at my wits end on not knowing what to do to
> > teach him. He can spell small words like he, she, it, can,
> > cat. He can spell his name and of course he can spell
> > NASCAR(one of his passions). I would love any games or
> > suggestions I could try with him. -=-
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

Kirby (22) isn't a great speller, but he's a very good writer. The
work he does involves real-time writing with people--not reports that
can be reviewed and polished up, but writing directly to co-workers
and to games players in the moment. Sometimes he doesn't spell well,
but he always knows what he's talking about! And I married his dad,
who was NOT a speller when he was 22. But he has gotten steadily
better.

Kirby spells better than Keith (his dad, my husband) did when Keith
was 22. I have the love letters to prove this, if need be. <g>

Here's something to consider clearly, though:
Keith went to kindergarten, K-12, and had had two years of college.
Kirby went to nothing until he took a math class and a "how to succeed
in college" sort of class when he was 18 or 19 (I wish I could
remember numbers better).

Keith had lots of spelling lessons.
Kirby had not a one.

Marty doesn't write much. His spelling is about the same way. He
confuses homonyms sometimes. He confuses -er and -or but so do most
people.

Holly, same lack of lessons, same lack of school, but she spells much
better than the boys do.

Sandra

frazzledhetumom

-We do not drill or test in my home, but our whole family just loves
spelling games.Things we play are spelling bees when in the car,
where we will rattle off words for the kids to spell. Or we will play
a game where we state a catagory such as animals or cities and one
person will say a name such as New York and the next player has to
come up with a word that begins with the last letter in the name ( in
this example the letter K). I will also without a word sit down to
one of my kids and do a word search puzzle, the whole time having a
conversation with myself such as man, this word "frankenstein" is
really giving me a problem, I can not seem to find it. Or say how
interesting a certain word is, pretty much ignoring my child however
before long they can not resist mom's having fun and start helping
find the words or point out words that are interesting to them. We
play hangman which is becoming a favorite for my second grade
daughter, we play in a room where there are many words on the walls
so when it is her turn, she can look at a word and know how to spell
it, all I have to do is bury my face in a book when she is searching
for a word so I do not see what word she is looking at. There are
posters and all sorts of things on the walls with many words for her
to choose from. We play boggle, scrabble, fill in the blank word
games. My kids both love BookWorm Adventures which is a computer
software game designed for kids where they have to spell yet in a
game form. I also put up a blog site for each of my kids and they
LOVE writing on these blogs, and learn how to use spell check as well
and this has been improving writing and spelling skills tremendously.
I also keep putting up interesting links for them on their blog sites
for them to explore at will. We sit down and write letters to
grandma . I have them tell me a story while we tape record it then I
type up their story for them. When they ask how to spell something I
tell them. If they ask a question on how to spell a word that has a
spelling rule, I tell them the spelling rule such as I before E
except after C or When 2 vowels go a walking, the first one does the
talking, THEN tell them how to spell it. We use letter tiles to make
up words. We play memory with words they have to match. One thing my
kids LOVED was going to a graveyard with crayons and blank paper and
doing tombstone rubbings where they placed the paper on a graveyard
stone and used the crayon to bring out the name onto paper. We make
words out of homemade playdough. A family game is to give each person
a letter (the letters make up a whole word) the first person says My
letter is T, it sounds like Tih, the second person my letter is r it
sounds like rrrrrrr, the third person e, the fourth person my letter
is e it sounds like eeeeeeeeee the word is Tree.( this game was
actually taken off of a Little House on the Prairie to teach a boy to
read however it works great for spelling too!)

Okay this is all the things I can think of that we all play as games
and my kids enjoy . Sorry it is such a lenghty response!
-- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Someone new to the list posted this. I think it's a good one to
> answer, but that the questioner might feel overwhelmed by the
answers.
>
> I've sent a warning.
>
> So in anonymous form, here is a situation which could use some
> unschooling advice.
>
>
> -=-Does anyone have any tips on teaching my 1st grade son to
> spell? He can read like a champ, but can't spell very well
> at all and I'm at my wits end on not knowing what to do to
> teach him. He can spell small words like he, she, it, can,
> cat. He can spell his name and of course he can spell
> NASCAR(one of his passions). I would love any games or
> suggestions I could try with him. -=-
>
>
> I did send the author these links:
>
> Here are some notes on the list itself
> http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning.html
> and some things I've collected on spelling:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/r/alphabet
> http://sandradodd.com/spelling
> ....
> Here's a sample of my daughter's spelling at 13. At six she
couldn't
> read at all:
> http://sandradodd.com/how
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Kris

Even though I had been unschooling my daughter, Lanora, for a few years I
had not completely let go of ideas about what they should know and when they
should know it. When she was about 9 she was a great reader and spoke well
but her spelling was awful BUT I sat on my lips and determined to leave it
alone. I resisted the urge to push or prod and say things like "look it up"
when she asked how something was spelled. I just answered her question
nicely.

One day she announced that she wanted to learn to spell and asked if I would
help. I said, "Sure, just let me know what you'd like me to do". She began
to spell almost everything she laid her eyes on, all she wanted from me is
to confirm if it was correct. Within 2 weeks she was spelling as well as
any high school student and could probably go up against most college
students.

My inner control freak breathed a sigh of relief but it was the last time I
fretted over what she was learning and when, spelling was nothing compared
to the big picture. She wanted to learn something and never thought she
needed "teaching", she was in control and found her own way to the goal.
That was MY lesson, all I had to do was back off and I got to watch how
trusting her and letting go gave her the room and power to learn on her own
terms.

Or I could have loaded her with spelling lists, reminding, prodding and
fretting. She probably would have learned to spell but also doubt her
ability to learn and feel the need to be taught. I'd rather she still not
spell very well but trust herself.

Kris
--
If God is satisfied with the work, the work may be satisfied with itself.

CS Lewis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/26/2009 5:41 PM, Kris wrote:
> Or I could have loaded her with spelling lists, reminding, prodding and
> fretting. She probably would have learned to spell but also doubt her
> ability to learn and feel the need to be taught. I'd rather she still not
> spell very well but trust herself.
>

Well put!

Rosie, who is now 18, didn't read at all until she was about 8 years
old, then picked it up quickly. But her spelling was just terrible.
She'd write like this: "Iy se a cta," and then in the next sentence, "I
lenk mi act." (I see a cat. I like my cat.) Even she couldn't read
what she'd written if she picked it up a bit later. The letters were all
out of order and she very often threw in extra letters for no apparent
reason - she'd toss "n's" in all over the place.

At 13 or so, she was spending a lot of time online and IMing with
friends, who constantly IMed her back with, "Huh?" She asked me to spell
things for her constantly - but really she needed help with almost every
word, not just a few words. Then she did NaNoWriMo. Wrote a 50,000 word
novel in a month. She didn't show it to anybody so I can't tell you how
the spelling was, but she wrote it in Microsoft Word and used the spell
checker. She says that was what turned her spelling around for her.
Well, that and one other discovery - she could look at a list of ways to
spell a word: cta, act, cat, tca, tac, and she could pick the correct
one out of the list. But even immediately after doing that, she couldn't
picture how to spell it. So, when Word guessed what she was trying to
spell and gave her enough choices, she could pick the right one out of
the list. She had to get close enough for Word to give her a list that
included the correct word, so it wasn't an immediate fix, but she slowly
got better and better at it and then the spell checker worked well for
her. Over the next few years she wrote a lot - did NaNoWriMo again every
year plus ScriptFrenzy which is writing a screenplay. Her spelling is
good now. She's 18 and a college student. No fear - total ownership over
her own ability to learn in her own way and in her own time!

My knees feel weak when I think about what could have been done to her
in the name of helping her with what would have been called her learning
disabilities. I tremble. She is so confident and sure of herself now, I
am so grateful we found unschooling in time to avoid any damage at all
to her learning abilities. She was just 4 when we started unschooling,
so she had absolutely no pressure placed on her and no teaching done to her.

-pam

Nancy Wooton

On Feb 26, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=-Does anyone have any tips on teaching my 1st grade son to
> spell? He can read like a champ, but can't spell very well
> at all and I'm at my wits end on not knowing what to do to
> teach him. He can spell small words like he, she, it, can,
> cat. He can spell his name and of course he can spell
> NASCAR(one of his passions). I would love any games or
> suggestions I could try with him. -=-


I made up this game in the car years ago. I would spell out loud some
word I knew was in the kids' vocabulary, and they'd guess the word.
It's a different skill, seeing the letters spelled in your head to
form a word, but it's really fun and helpful.

The trick to learning to spell is to NEVER spell the word wrong; it's
like the recommendation in music to always practice perfectly (no
matter how slow!). If your son needs to spell because he's writing,
ask what words he wants to use, then write them out for him to copy.
The errors people make when they're little are the ones that stick, so
try to avoid that. Also, the words kids misspell on tests, which then
come back with a big red check next to them, get burned into the memory.

Lastly, most unschoolers will tell you you don't need to be at your
wits' end, and you don't need to teach him. Model enjoyment of
language by looking up words for fun; play Scrabble, Jumble or other
word games, with him or without. Leave a dictionary in the
bathroom :-)

Nancy (former proofreader :-) (posting without reading the other
responses yet!)

Robyn L. Coburn

> I made up this game in the car years ago. I would spell out loud some
> word I knew was in the kids' vocabulary, and they'd guess the word.
> It's a different skill, seeing the letters spelled in your head to
> form a word, but it's really fun and helpful.>>>

What is the goal of this kind of game? If the goal is to "teach spelling"
then it might not be helpful to unschooling. Intention matters.

<<<< it's like the recommendation in music to always practice perfectly (no
matter how slow!)>>>

Oh?

I suppose if the goal is perfection in practicing.

But what if the goal is to have fun playing music?

I guess I don't like the directive inside the word "always" here.

I am reminded of John Holt's story about repeatedly making a mistake when
learning a cello piece. All it took was one of the other players in the
ensemble to point out the misread note and presto he was able to fix it.

"Don't try to teach spelling" isn't the last thing unschoolers would say.
It's the first.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Robyn L. Coburn

De has made a just beautiful post in her blog that pertains to children
helping in the absence of chores and personal growth and inner strength,
called "Growth".

http://and-the-kitchen-sink.blogspot.com/

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Robyn L. Coburn

I should say called "Growing.."

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

> De has made a just beautiful post in her blog that pertains to children
> helping in the absence of chores and personal growth and inner strength,
> called "Growth".
>
> http://and-the-kitchen-sink.blogspot.com/
>

Nancy Wooton

On Feb 26, 2009, at 7:52 PM, Robyn L. Coburn wrote:

>> I made up this game in the car years ago. I would spell out loud
>> some
>> word I knew was in the kids' vocabulary, and they'd guess the word.
>> It's a different skill, seeing the letters spelled in your head to
>> form a word, but it's really fun and helpful.>>>
>
> What is the goal of this kind of game? If the goal is to "teach
> spelling"
> then it might not be helpful to unschooling. Intention matters.
>

The goal was to keep two bored, tired kids distracted while driving
two hours at night, with no booklights or GameBoys, from grandma's
house to home. It worked great <g> and turned out to be a really
interesting mental game, since all of us like words. (The kids were
young, so the words were "m-a-p," etc. I think the favorite was
"giraffe.")


> <<<< it's like the recommendation in music to always practice
> perfectly (no
> matter how slow!)>>>
>
> Oh?
>
> I suppose if the goal is perfection in practicing.

Nope, the goal is to learn a piece without engraining a mistake into
your muscle memory. As you play each note correctly, you eventually
gain speed, expression, fluidity, etc.

>
> But what if the goal is to have fun playing music?

That's a different, though not conflicting, goal. As is learning to
spell correctly, versus free play with words.

>
>
> I guess I don't like the directive inside the word "always" here.

I got it from a cello book :-) I think Suzuki includes the concept,
too. Suzuki also points out that all "practice" is playing music; I
like that very much!

>
>
> I am reminded of John Holt's story about repeatedly making a mistake
> when
> learning a cello piece. All it took was one of the other players in
> the
> ensemble to point out the misread note and presto he was able to fix
> it.

And I'm an adult learning to play cello, too. I think if he had
played the piece more slowly while first sight reading it, he most
likely would not have made the mistake at all, practicing to fluency
while unaware it was wrong. I play new pieces very slowly indeed,
because I'm still learning intonation and fingering; I use a keyboard
to help me find the right tone. For me, that *is* fun playing music :-)

The original poster asked a question about teaching spelling. There
was no elaboration about *why*, except her own anxiety. I decided to
ignore all of the extraneous stuff and just answer with what I did, as
an unschooler. My assumption, as an unschooler, is that the child is
interested in the topic at hand, whatever it may be. Word games of
any kind, frequent use of dictionaries, always seeing words spelled
correctly, etc., are among the things my unschooling family did, and
we are all good spellers.

Nancy

Sandra Dodd

-=-Word games of
any kind, frequent use of dictionaries, always seeing words spelled
correctly, etc., are among the things my unschooling family did, and
we are all good spellers.-=-

My kids watched a lot of Sesame Street, and that never hurts. They
watched lots of Disney sing-along videos. They had computer games
that involved very light reading (multiple choices, some of them;
collecting letters to make a word...) It was all just for fun, but
it all made words easily available.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Someone new to the list posted this. I think it's a good one to
> answer, but that the questioner might feel overwhelmed by the answers.
>
> I've sent a warning.
>
> So in anonymous form, here is a situation which could use some
> unschooling advice.
>
>
> -=-Does anyone have any tips on teaching my 1st grade son to
> spell? He can read like a champ, but can't spell very well
> at all and I'm at my wits end on not knowing what to do to
> teach him. He can spell small words like he, she, it, can,
> cat. He can spell his name and of course he can spell
> NASCAR(one of his passions). I would love any games or
> suggestions I could try with him. -=-
>
>
>


The NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) Spelling Strategy is virtually
failproof. Here's an article about it from the guy who first
identified it:

http://www.nlpu.com/Articles/artic10.htm

Here's the actual process:

http://www.nlpu.com/Patterns/patt10.htm

Btw, despite being a stickler for "correct" spelling from myself, a
little creativity from my son doesn't bother me because, really, I
agree with him that it makes perfect sense to spell words as they
sound. I just was trained out of doing that. Overall, his spelling's
good enough for the "real world" and there are more important things
in our lives. So I haven't taught him the strategy yet and he hasn't
asked. Perhaps it will come up in conversation one day, perhaps it
won't.

But, if my son's spelling was a cause for concern, this is definitely
what I would suggest to him.

Bob

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/26/2009 8:39 PM, Nancy Wooton wrote:
> And I'm an adult learning to play cello, too. I think if he had
> played the piece more slowly while first sight reading it, he most
> likely would not have made the mistake at all, practicing to fluency
> while unaware it was wrong.

I play the cello, too. But I'm not trying to get better - I play for
right now, for the fun of it. I have some books of music from musicals,
for example, and I play those as close to full speed as I can, even
though I make mistakes, because it is more fun that way. I don't play
with anybody else or for anybody else, so it isn't hurting anybody even
if I make the same mistakes over and over.

But, honestly, that isn't my experience.

In dance, some people like to start slow and do the steps absolutely
correctly from the beginning and slowly speed up, and other people like
to do the dance close to full speed and slowly improve the accuracy of
the steps. Turns out that those who do it the latter way end up looking
more natural and more relaxed, so that is the preferred method of
teaching dance for musical theater.

In the past though, when I was trying to learn a new piece on my cello
that I was going to perform, I'd do both. I'd go very slowly and make
sure I did it right, so that my fingers and arms could get the feeling
of the right moves, but I'd sometimes switch and play it best I could at
full speed and sometimes I'd even play it at a very rapid speed. Pushing
the speed helps turn i it into muscle memory and not intellect.

That all said, I think Rosie would have enjoyed the game Nancy
described, and it would have made her feel good to know she could handle
that aspect of spelling.

I wouldn't want to eliminate a game from our lives because it supports
learning some particular thing. My kids loved all kinds of games and
many of those games were developed to supposedly teach some particular
skill or concept - but my kids didn't care about the intent, they cared
if the game was fun and part of the fun was very often gaining greater
understanding of that intended skill or concept. The Logical Journey of
the Zoombinis is a good example of that. I carry a little game around
with me in my purse called, "Math Dice." I know it is marketed as a way
for kids to learn and practice arithmetic, but it IS a really fun game
and I pull it out when we're waiting in a restaurant, etc. My kids don't
object to playing it just because of how it is marketed.

I also don't see what is wrong with a parent choosing to introduce
something to their kids. I made up playing the game "Battleship" with
cartesian coordinates because I thought it was fun and that the kids
would be interested in how the cartesian coordinate system works. I know
for sure Rosie was really interested in spelling and she'd have liked a
game that let her pursue that interest in a successful and pleasurable way.

-pam

k

Spelling. I probably know dozens of doctors and lawyers who don't
spell at all well, and have worked for a number of them. Not to
mention the College of Medicine students and political science majors
who were my co-students at university. A couple of them were my
student workers when I was secretary in the Art Department. Some were
whizzes at memorization, had very high practical skills and logic and
couldn't spell. Their strengths were in things other than spelling.

They compensate for bad spelling by hiring secretaries like me who
*can* spell, and proof and compose their correspondence for them.
They use hand held voice activated tape recorders for going back over
their lecture notes with, since their own endless scribbles of notes
written at lightning speed are often illegible. I edited and
formatted theses as a side job. What is hard for some is easy for
someone else. Even students can hire secretaries occasionally when
they can't make it to the writing center for help on papers.

Some resources for getting the details right on spelling and writing:
dictionaries, grammar reference books, computer spellchecker, Dragon
software for computer dictation (fine for rough drafts to be proofed
later), tape recorded dictation and other people. Etc. Those are
also things which secretaries use regularly in their jobs.

Basically students focus on the stuff they're being tested on. It's
rare indeed that they're asked to spell or hand write on tests, other
than filling in their name, date, ID number, etc. Tests, often these
super long deals, are fill in the bubble, and made to sent through a
machine.

I wouldn't want to worry about spelling. Some people are good at it
and many people are very successful without ever being good at it.

~Katherine

k

Robyn, speaking as primarily a visual spatial learner, I agree with
your post. Nancy's approach works well for people who learn primarily
through speech, and have good audio memory of letter order. Karl and
Brian his dad are good at memorizing musical information and Brian
plays several instruments well by ear. But Brian can't hear
"spelling." I can't either. Brian doesn't spell as well as I do, and
when he writes anything I'm the one he asks for help in correcting
spellos. I'm an excellent speller, and it's all to do with my
constant love of reading and writing. Which, for me, is probably very
close to 100% visual.

Maybe Nancy's children could hear spelling. Many people can't. My
mom can and I can't.

~Katherine





> I made up this game in the car years ago. I would spell out loud some
> word I knew was in the kids' vocabulary, and they'd guess the word.
> It's a different skill, seeing the letters spelled in your head to
> form a word, but it's really fun and helpful.>>>

What is the goal of this kind of game? If the goal is to "teach spelling"
then it might not be helpful to unschooling. Intention matters.

<<<< it's like the recommendation in music to always practice perfectly (no
matter how slow!)>>>

Oh?

I suppose if the goal is perfection in practicing.

But what if the goal is to have fun playing music?

I guess I don't like the directive inside the word "always" here.

I am reminded of John Holt's story about repeatedly making a mistake when
learning a cello piece. All it took was one of the other players in the
ensemble to point out the misread note and presto he was able to fix it.

"Don't try to teach spelling" isn't the last thing unschoolers would say.
It's the first.

Krisula Moyer

Trayton never liked to write because he found it uncomfortable to
hold a pencil. I used to worry that he would not learn to spell
because he didn't write anything. Somehow,
though, at age 15 he is an excellent speller. Between text based
games on the computer and reading a lot he managed to gather lots of
information about spelling that I didn't know he knew. I have
overheard him spelling things for his sisters when they are all on
line and he'll say. "Oh, that's sorry with two rr's like worry." Or
yesterday I heard him explaining why certain suffixes are spelled the
same way. Somehow he figured this out even though at age 11 he needed
help with just about every word he wanted to spell. He still, by the
way, would prefer to type rather than write with pen and paper but he
can write pretty legibly if he needs to.

k

>>>> The NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) Spelling Strategy is virtually
failproof. Here's an article about it from the guy who first
identified it: <<<<

>>>> http://www.nlpu.com/Articles/artic10.htm <<<<

>>>> Here's the actual process: <<<<

>>>> http://www.nlpu.com/Patterns/patt10.htm <<<<

Bob, I have never heard of NLP until seeing your posts and newletter
blurbs about it. Several of the steps in the NLP spelling strategy
are things I used to do when encountering words I had just read and
wanted to remember the spelling of. I even do it with numbers.. phone
numbers especially and using a mental adding machine or mental phone
keypad is my preferred method. I press the number in midair or on a
forearm as though I'm making the call.

Every time I read more about NLP it gets more interesting.

~Katherine

Robyn L. Coburn

Bringing in two quotes from separate people:

<<<< I wouldn't want to eliminate a game from our lives because it supports
> learning some particular thing.>>>>

<<<The original poster asked a question about teaching spelling. There
was no elaboration about *why*, except her own anxiety. I decided to
ignore all of the extraneous stuff and just answer with what I did, as
an unschooler. My assumption, as an unschooler, is that the child is
interested in the topic at hand, whatever it may be.>>>>

I sure didn't intend to imply that games of any kind were bad. Nor do I
think that things that are educational in nature are necessarily negative. I
would think that the games we all play with our kids, self-devised or from
outside sources probably support learning many wonderful things.

I was making a point about parental intention in general, not Nancy's
intention with her kids that particular day.

Yes the original poster did ask a question about teaching.

I think in the case of a parent worried and wanting to get ideas for
teaching, for us to make the assumption that the child in question is
interested in the topic is a big assumption. Especially in this case the
person is anonymous and may have only a tenuous understanding of
unschooling.

My concern was to point out that to someone asking about teaching the
answer shouldn't be "Unschooling is about making teaching fun!" even by
implication.



Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 26, 2009, at 10:02 PM, Nancy Wooton wrote:

> The trick to learning to spell is to NEVER spell the word wrong;

I think that advice had more merit before automatic spell checkers!
I agree the words Kathryn took the longest to learn how to spell
correctly were the ones she'd written (and thus seen) wrong the
longest. But she got over that and spells fine at 17.

I think preventing kids from never spelling a word wrong would cause
way more stress than correcting a reinforced wrong spelling.
Unschoolers shouldn't be *afraid* of kids getting things wrong.
Unschoolers also shouldn't be afraid to point out something wrong,
especially if it will send them off in a wrong direction. But *ask*
them so you can get a feel for what they want help with. It might not
be as much as you think. Self-correction is a part of learning.)

> it's
> like the recommendation in music to always practice perfectly (no
> matter how slow!)

It's interesting to learn an instrument as an adult. It's lots easier
to analyze what's going on.

Kathryn's been showing me how to play bits of songs on the guitar.
She wrote the tab wrong for Enter the Sandman and I played it wrong
for 3 weeks while she was at camp. That was tough to undo! But I did
and can't remember the wrong way now.

I can see two processes (so far) in the learning. One is the muscle
memory where your fingers move through a song by rote. The other is a
more general knowing how to move your fingers over the instrument.
The first comes from playing one song over and over. The second comes
from learning many songs. The interesting thing is that the first
gives incremental help with the second, but the second can help with
the first. You can get better at playing one song, even if you don't
practice it, by learning other songs.

Another piece of the learning is keeping up with the song, even if
you skip notes or make mistakes. Being off tempo (is that the right
word?) is way more noticeable than a wrong note ;-) iTunes is awesome
for that kind of practice :-) You can loop a piece of a song
continuously.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I can see two processes (so far) in the learning. One is the muscle
memory where your fingers move through a song by rote. The other is a
more general knowing how to move your fingers over the instrument.
The first comes from playing one song over and over. The second comes
from learning many songs. The interesting thing is that the first
gives incremental help with the second, but the second can help with
the first. You can get better at playing one song, even if you don't
practice it, by learning other songs.-=-

I agree with Joyce.

If I'm "training" to play a song in a recital, and there's a
deadline, and I want to focus on doing that, then playing it slowly
but carefully and building up to speed might be the most efficient
way to do that. But if I'm practicing sight reading, for the joy of
seeing how well I can do it, then I'm not "learning a song," I'm
sight reading. And sight reading gets better when it's done more
recklessly. Those afraid of making a mistake won't be brave enough
to sight read vocal music. That really involves some sliding around
sometimes when a part isn't well known, and playing it on the piano
until you know what it sounds like is not at all sight reading.

With recorder, the instrument I can best do by ear (not counting
voice) OR by music, everything I know about music from any direction
comes into use. But I know the instrument well enough that if I know
the tune in my head I can play it on the recorder. I might make a
mistake, but when I've figured out what that one interval is (from
guessing wrong and finding the right note), it helps me with every
other song in the future that has that particular jump.

So if spelling is like music (and watching Holly learn to spell, I
think for some people it can be), then the more words she knows, the
more she can sort through words and see what's similar and what's
part of a set or pattern, and what's an exception.

Because of my lifelong interest in the history of words, when my kids
have asked how to spell something, I've usually told them two
things: The spelling, and the why of it, VERY briefly. It helps
them remember.

The spelling of the number two is easier to remember if one knows it
was once pronounced "twa" and that it's the root of "twin," "twice"
and lots of other such words.

Yesterday Holly asked me about some word... She's asleep so I can't
ask. It was about the adjective form of some word that's been in
English from Norman French for many hundreds of years. We have the
French form and the English form. You can end it with "-ful" or "-
ment"--either the English form or the French. They have slightly
different connotations. (I'll ask her later if she remembers what
word it was.)

I'm as interested in English as some people are in Sodoku or
automotive history. It's easy for me because it's fun. That's the
idea behind lots of learning. Music, too! Someone playing by ear
can't possibly go error-free, and someone learning to read or spell
on her own can't either.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

--I also don't see what is wrong with a parent choosing to introduce
something to their kids. -=-

I see great wrong in parents choosing NOT to introduce things, in
parents avoiding saying or doing something because they second-guess
themselves and decide "it might not be unschooling."

Creating a rich learning life IS going to include history and science
and language and math and music and art and movement and nature and
what people do for a living and how buildings are made and where
water flows and what grows around your house and where and what helps
it or hurts it.

To be too teacherly is bad.

To be absolutely avoidant of anything that resembles anything that's
ever been on anyone's school curriculum is worse.

TALK to your kids, but don't lecture them. Help them without
quizzing them. But surround them with interesting things and samples
and examples and opportunities to see, hear, touch, smell and taste.

Any parent afraid she's not doing enough should do more, but NOT in
the way of being a teacher. In the way of being an interesting,
supportive partner.

http://sandradodd.com/checklists

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Or we will play
a game where we state a catagory such as animals or cities and one
person will say a name such as New York and the next player has to
come up with a word that begins with the last letter in the name ( in
this example the letter K). -=-

My cousin Nada and I used to play word games when we were in bed but
not asleep yet. We shared a bed until we were 12 or so, and a room
until I was 14 and moved into the canning room (a half-underground
room off the kitchen with a full wall of shelves over an unfinished
adobe wall).

The most fun was a rhythmic thing that I think is supposed to go with
bouncing a ball, but we just played it in the bed. You're supposed
to do it without breaking rhythm anyway, and you have to fill in the
blanks with same-letter-starting words:

My name is Alice

My husband's name is Andy

We live in Alabama

And we sell Apples

and the other person does B, and then you do C, until someone is
stuck and then it's something to giggle about.

And if you start over it's just lame to use an of the same names that
were just used.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-He still, by the
way, would prefer to type rather than write with pen and paper-=-

Me too!

<g>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe Nancy's children could hear spelling. Many people can't. My
mom can and I can't.-=-

I loved spelling bees in school. Nancy said people remember what
they've spelled wrong. I remember the shock and indignity of having
made a mistake in a spelling bee! Third grade, I forgot to say
"capital S" on Saturday. 7th grade: biscuit (I thought it had a
"q", undoubtedly because of bisquick boxes). 9th grade, committee.
My friend Robert Torrez and I went to district. He missed lightning,
and I missed wooly, for spelling it with two l's (a British spelling).

But I'm totally over it now.

<bwg>



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-My concern was to point out that to someone asking about teaching the
answer shouldn't be "Unschooling is about making teaching fun!" even by
implication.-=-

I agree. I don't mind it making learning fun, but the next step
beyond that is to make learning so much a part of life that there is
no "learning" outside of other moments, activities, breathing.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

>>-Any parent afraid she's not doing enough should do more, but NOT in
the way of being a teacher. In the way of being an interesting,
supportive partner.

http://sandradodd.com/checklists

>>


it's funny - reading that checklist page again - my son (and daughter to some extent) learn SO much about the world from shows like the simpsons and south park. at first it sounds crazy, but my son has gotten really good at telling what i or might be true, and what is just part of the story. for instance - he knew where mt. kilamanjaro was (and i had forgotten - and i was a geography major in college!), he's familiar with many political


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[email protected]

Smack in the middle of a whole bunch of fun games and ideas about playing
around with words I stumbled over this :)

**If they ask a question on how to spell a word that has a spelling rule, I
tell them the spelling rule such as... When 2 vowels go a walking, the first
one does the talking, THEN tell them how to spell it.**

Oh, please don't tell them that as a rule, unless you're going to point it
out as a thing people say that only sometimes occasionally works! Perceptive
kids may notice that in that "rule" the only instance of paired vowels breaks the
rule. :)

And a personal plea - please please break up long posts with paragraphing.
Just randomly, if necessary. I have old eyes and I have a hard time keeping them
on track without that help. :) This isn't a plea for short posts, btw! Lots
of information is a good thing.

Deborah in IL


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