Can I talk here?
Kim Zerbe
Congratulations on the 7th Anniversary!
I'm a little late to the party; I just joined this group today! I am also on
a few other groups, but all just since June of this year as we are new to
unschooling. I had read some stuff about it (felt like it sort of followed
the path I was on with Attachment Parenting, Unconditional/Peaceful/Playful
Parenting, and such) and a friend convinced me to go to the Life Is Good
Conference here in Portland (well, it's across the river in Vancouver, but
close enough!) in May and I just loved it. :) The atmosphere was wonderful
as were the many people I met there.
In an effort to get more of that vibe and influence in my life, I joined a
few online groups. First one, then another, now I think I am on 5 such
groups! And I can't believe I didn't join this one right away, but I sort of
felt like as a newbie I wasn't ready for the big leagues! Mostly I just read
in the beginning. That's what the instructions said to do. I read a lot. I
didn't post right away because I didn't want to seem ignorant or have people
tear my words apart. Often other people asked what I wanted to ask and I
learned from the dialogue that followed. But now (I know, amazingly in just
a few short months!), now I am very comfortable with the vibe of most lists
where the majority of posters are passionate about unschooling and ask the
really hard questions of us newbies (which we need). I'm sure many of those
people are also on this list too.
I am always learning, so I think this is a good place for me.
However, in my journey I am facing a new problem. After the conference, I
had a desire to meet other unschoolers in real life. I wanted more positive
interactions than just at the conference! I had met some people there, but I
knew there had to be other families in the area, some I didn't meet and
others who didn't even attend LIG. So I sought out my local unschoolers
list. And I am disappointed. It is not anything like these
national/international lists.
Here is where I complain. There are a few (very few) people on this local
board who seem to "get it" but many more who don't. It's like a bunch of
homeschoolers have latched on to the term unschooling and think it only
means that they do not use a set curriculum in their school at home. For
them it does not extend to their lives, to parenting, or in general
respecting their kids. Maybe they think it does, or maybe they think it
doesn't have to. The vibe of some recent posts is basically a few women
(mostly with younger children) telling everyone how they live with certain
structures, controls, and limits for their kids and basically saying that's
what works for their family so don't question it. I made the mistake of
questioning some of these things and seriously people came out of the
woodwork to tell me off! They have rules for everything. No TV (or very
limited in time they were allowed to watch and some limited the shows their
kids were allowed to watch), bedtime at 8:30 sharp, lunch at noon, no sugar
in the house, and more. Sugar and TV seem to be BIG and I mean HUGE things
that people were very defensive about. Saying that because they have
"reasons" for limiting such things it is not arbitrary and who are we to
question what is working for them. (Um, because this is an UNschooling group
and you are NOT unschooling?!)
Is this common in smaller local groups? I am so sad that I am not getting to
meet other similar minded folks. Well, that is not true. I had one ally (who
has older children and much more experience than me with this) who asked the
same questions I did and even went deeper into an explanation of things like
cause and effect and how they can't see now what they are teaching their
children. She got blasted more than I did! It got ugly. So I called her up
and we met with our kids and had a great time. So at least one good thing
has come of this! One new friend!!
Just wondering what to do now. I suppose I should just stop reading over
there. Yeah, tell me the obvious. Anyway, I'm here to learn! I've got some
issues ya'll can help me with as no one else I know seems to be able to
relate! I just didn't want to dump it all out there on Day 1. :p
My name is Kim, DH (since 93) is Geoff, and our son is Damon (4). We live in
Hillsboro, Oregon, just on the west side of Portland. We've lived here 8
years and I do not have a hometown, my dad was active military so I have
lived in many states and seen most of this great country of ours.
Thanks for the online community.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm a little late to the party; I just joined this group today! I am also on
a few other groups, but all just since June of this year as we are new to
unschooling. I had read some stuff about it (felt like it sort of followed
the path I was on with Attachment Parenting, Unconditional/Peaceful/Playful
Parenting, and such) and a friend convinced me to go to the Life Is Good
Conference here in Portland (well, it's across the river in Vancouver, but
close enough!) in May and I just loved it. :) The atmosphere was wonderful
as were the many people I met there.
In an effort to get more of that vibe and influence in my life, I joined a
few online groups. First one, then another, now I think I am on 5 such
groups! And I can't believe I didn't join this one right away, but I sort of
felt like as a newbie I wasn't ready for the big leagues! Mostly I just read
in the beginning. That's what the instructions said to do. I read a lot. I
didn't post right away because I didn't want to seem ignorant or have people
tear my words apart. Often other people asked what I wanted to ask and I
learned from the dialogue that followed. But now (I know, amazingly in just
a few short months!), now I am very comfortable with the vibe of most lists
where the majority of posters are passionate about unschooling and ask the
really hard questions of us newbies (which we need). I'm sure many of those
people are also on this list too.
I am always learning, so I think this is a good place for me.
However, in my journey I am facing a new problem. After the conference, I
had a desire to meet other unschoolers in real life. I wanted more positive
interactions than just at the conference! I had met some people there, but I
knew there had to be other families in the area, some I didn't meet and
others who didn't even attend LIG. So I sought out my local unschoolers
list. And I am disappointed. It is not anything like these
national/international lists.
Here is where I complain. There are a few (very few) people on this local
board who seem to "get it" but many more who don't. It's like a bunch of
homeschoolers have latched on to the term unschooling and think it only
means that they do not use a set curriculum in their school at home. For
them it does not extend to their lives, to parenting, or in general
respecting their kids. Maybe they think it does, or maybe they think it
doesn't have to. The vibe of some recent posts is basically a few women
(mostly with younger children) telling everyone how they live with certain
structures, controls, and limits for their kids and basically saying that's
what works for their family so don't question it. I made the mistake of
questioning some of these things and seriously people came out of the
woodwork to tell me off! They have rules for everything. No TV (or very
limited in time they were allowed to watch and some limited the shows their
kids were allowed to watch), bedtime at 8:30 sharp, lunch at noon, no sugar
in the house, and more. Sugar and TV seem to be BIG and I mean HUGE things
that people were very defensive about. Saying that because they have
"reasons" for limiting such things it is not arbitrary and who are we to
question what is working for them. (Um, because this is an UNschooling group
and you are NOT unschooling?!)
Is this common in smaller local groups? I am so sad that I am not getting to
meet other similar minded folks. Well, that is not true. I had one ally (who
has older children and much more experience than me with this) who asked the
same questions I did and even went deeper into an explanation of things like
cause and effect and how they can't see now what they are teaching their
children. She got blasted more than I did! It got ugly. So I called her up
and we met with our kids and had a great time. So at least one good thing
has come of this! One new friend!!
Just wondering what to do now. I suppose I should just stop reading over
there. Yeah, tell me the obvious. Anyway, I'm here to learn! I've got some
issues ya'll can help me with as no one else I know seems to be able to
relate! I just didn't want to dump it all out there on Day 1. :p
My name is Kim, DH (since 93) is Geoff, and our son is Damon (4). We live in
Hillsboro, Oregon, just on the west side of Portland. We've lived here 8
years and I do not have a hometown, my dad was active military so I have
lived in many states and seen most of this great country of ours.
Thanks for the online community.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-So I sought out my local unschoolers
list. And I am disappointed. It is not anything like these
national/international lists. -=-
This is discussion, though. There are people here who might
disappoint you in person.
-=-It's like a bunch of homeschoolers have latched on to the term
unschooling and think it only means that they do not use a set
curriculum in their school at home. For them it does not extend to
their lives, to parenting, or in general respecting their kids. -=-
That's the other edge of unschooling. It's unschooling. It's not
the kind of unschooling that creates the results radical unschoolers
are getting. They'll end up with the same bad relationships with
their teens, and maybe the kids will decide they'd rather go to
school than stay home, because there won't be the same warmth and
acceptance. The parents are not as likely to have the depth of
compassion they would have for their kids if they didn't have the
overlay of a checklist of missed chores and broken rules.
-=-The vibe of some recent posts is basically a few women (mostly
with younger children) telling everyone how they live with certain
structures, controls, and limits for their kids and basically saying
that's what works for their family so don't question it.-=-
When people say they don't want to be questioned, or they want to be
"respected" or that all parents should support all other parents,
they're not ready for any sort of philosophical discussion. The kind
of unschooling we discuss here is based in principles, and those
can't be discussed or understood without the willingness to change
and examine one's thoughts. That's what philosophy is, looking at
beliefs and how beliefs affect thought, words and actions.
We can't change those other people, but we can provide discussion of
beliefs, though, language and action.
-=-Is this common in smaller local groups? I am so sad that I am not
getting to meet other similar minded folks.-=-
Unschoolers are very rare. Good unschoolers are even rarer. Yes,
this group is pretty damned special. <g>
-=-Just wondering what to do now. I suppose I should just stop
reading over there. Yeah, tell me the obvious. Anyway, I'm here to
learn!-=-
If you can read that other one without frustration, maybe you could
at least recommend webpages or other lists occasionally, for the
benefit of the undecided. And honestly, if those families have
younger kids and they're not going to commit to unschooling at such a
depth that it will really stick, they'll probably be moving toward a
curriculum before long or putting kids in school. Some will want to
move further into unschooling.
I quit a statewide yahoogroup that I myself had formed and owned
because I got jumped on for saying one unschooling thing in a year.
I was doing them a favor to keep that list operational and
advertised, and the one time I wanted to defend unschoolers I got
pounded by newish-to-homeschooling know-nothings. I'd bet any amount
of money that all their kids have been in school for years now and
that they're spending their time complaining with other parents about
how hard it is to be a parent. My kids, meanwhile, are sweet and
present and tell me they love me.
Have the people on your local list gotten this support link?
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
list. And I am disappointed. It is not anything like these
national/international lists. -=-
This is discussion, though. There are people here who might
disappoint you in person.
-=-It's like a bunch of homeschoolers have latched on to the term
unschooling and think it only means that they do not use a set
curriculum in their school at home. For them it does not extend to
their lives, to parenting, or in general respecting their kids. -=-
That's the other edge of unschooling. It's unschooling. It's not
the kind of unschooling that creates the results radical unschoolers
are getting. They'll end up with the same bad relationships with
their teens, and maybe the kids will decide they'd rather go to
school than stay home, because there won't be the same warmth and
acceptance. The parents are not as likely to have the depth of
compassion they would have for their kids if they didn't have the
overlay of a checklist of missed chores and broken rules.
-=-The vibe of some recent posts is basically a few women (mostly
with younger children) telling everyone how they live with certain
structures, controls, and limits for their kids and basically saying
that's what works for their family so don't question it.-=-
When people say they don't want to be questioned, or they want to be
"respected" or that all parents should support all other parents,
they're not ready for any sort of philosophical discussion. The kind
of unschooling we discuss here is based in principles, and those
can't be discussed or understood without the willingness to change
and examine one's thoughts. That's what philosophy is, looking at
beliefs and how beliefs affect thought, words and actions.
We can't change those other people, but we can provide discussion of
beliefs, though, language and action.
-=-Is this common in smaller local groups? I am so sad that I am not
getting to meet other similar minded folks.-=-
Unschoolers are very rare. Good unschoolers are even rarer. Yes,
this group is pretty damned special. <g>
-=-Just wondering what to do now. I suppose I should just stop
reading over there. Yeah, tell me the obvious. Anyway, I'm here to
learn!-=-
If you can read that other one without frustration, maybe you could
at least recommend webpages or other lists occasionally, for the
benefit of the undecided. And honestly, if those families have
younger kids and they're not going to commit to unschooling at such a
depth that it will really stick, they'll probably be moving toward a
curriculum before long or putting kids in school. Some will want to
move further into unschooling.
I quit a statewide yahoogroup that I myself had formed and owned
because I got jumped on for saying one unschooling thing in a year.
I was doing them a favor to keep that list operational and
advertised, and the one time I wanted to defend unschoolers I got
pounded by newish-to-homeschooling know-nothings. I'd bet any amount
of money that all their kids have been in school for years now and
that they're spending their time complaining with other parents about
how hard it is to be a parent. My kids, meanwhile, are sweet and
present and tell me they love me.
Have the people on your local list gotten this support link?
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaret
Yes, it is hard to find other radical unschoolers :) On my local
unschooling list, someone was advocating spanking at one point in the
not too distant past.
I ended up starting a regional group for radical unschoolers last
summer and I think it is going well. It is a Washington group, but we
have some people just over the borders (B.C. and Portland, mainly). I
think there are two or three people in Portland or Vancouver. It
might be a good match for you:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/
I think there is probably also an Oregon group on the Radical
Unschoolers Network: http://familyrun.ning.com/ I know that there
is a PNW group.
Margaret
unschooling list, someone was advocating spanking at one point in the
not too distant past.
I ended up starting a regional group for radical unschoolers last
summer and I think it is going well. It is a Washington group, but we
have some people just over the borders (B.C. and Portland, mainly). I
think there are two or three people in Portland or Vancouver. It
might be a good match for you:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/
I think there is probably also an Oregon group on the Radical
Unschoolers Network: http://familyrun.ning.com/ I know that there
is a PNW group.
Margaret
On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:55 PM, Kim Zerbe <kim.zerbe@...> wrote:
>
> Congratulations on the 7th Anniversary!
>
> I'm a little late to the party; I just joined this group today! I am also on
> a few other groups, but all just since June of this year as we are new to
> unschooling. I had read some stuff about it (felt like it sort of followed
> the path I was on with Attachment Parenting, Unconditional/Peaceful/Playful
> Parenting, and such) and a friend convinced me to go to the Life Is Good
> Conference here in Portland (well, it's across the river in Vancouver, but
> close enough!) in May and I just loved it. :) The atmosphere was wonderful
> as were the many people I met there.
>
> In an effort to get more of that vibe and influence in my life, I joined a
> few online groups. First one, then another, now I think I am on 5 such
> groups! And I can't believe I didn't join this one right away, but I sort of
> felt like as a newbie I wasn't ready for the big leagues! Mostly I just read
> in the beginning. That's what the instructions said to do. I read a lot. I
> didn't post right away because I didn't want to seem ignorant or have people
> tear my words apart. Often other people asked what I wanted to ask and I
> learned from the dialogue that followed. But now (I know, amazingly in just
> a few short months!), now I am very comfortable with the vibe of most lists
> where the majority of posters are passionate about unschooling and ask the
> really hard questions of us newbies (which we need). I'm sure many of those
> people are also on this list too.
>
> I am always learning, so I think this is a good place for me.
>
> However, in my journey I am facing a new problem. After the conference, I
> had a desire to meet other unschoolers in real life. I wanted more positive
> interactions than just at the conference! I had met some people there, but I
> knew there had to be other families in the area, some I didn't meet and
> others who didn't even attend LIG. So I sought out my local unschoolers
> list. And I am disappointed. It is not anything like these
> national/international lists.
>
> Here is where I complain. There are a few (very few) people on this local
> board who seem to "get it" but many more who don't. It's like a bunch of
> homeschoolers have latched on to the term unschooling and think it only
> means that they do not use a set curriculum in their school at home. For
> them it does not extend to their lives, to parenting, or in general
> respecting their kids. Maybe they think it does, or maybe they think it
> doesn't have to. The vibe of some recent posts is basically a few women
> (mostly with younger children) telling everyone how they live with certain
> structures, controls, and limits for their kids and basically saying that's
> what works for their family so don't question it. I made the mistake of
> questioning some of these things and seriously people came out of the
> woodwork to tell me off! They have rules for everything. No TV (or very
> limited in time they were allowed to watch and some limited the shows their
> kids were allowed to watch), bedtime at 8:30 sharp, lunch at noon, no sugar
> in the house, and more. Sugar and TV seem to be BIG and I mean HUGE things
> that people were very defensive about. Saying that because they have
> "reasons" for limiting such things it is not arbitrary and who are we to
> question what is working for them. (Um, because this is an UNschooling group
> and you are NOT unschooling?!)
>
> Is this common in smaller local groups? I am so sad that I am not getting to
> meet other similar minded folks. Well, that is not true. I had one ally (who
> has older children and much more experience than me with this) who asked the
> same questions I did and even went deeper into an explanation of things like
> cause and effect and how they can't see now what they are teaching their
> children. She got blasted more than I did! It got ugly. So I called her up
> and we met with our kids and had a great time. So at least one good thing
> has come of this! One new friend!!
>
> Just wondering what to do now. I suppose I should just stop reading over
> there. Yeah, tell me the obvious. Anyway, I'm here to learn! I've got some
> issues ya'll can help me with as no one else I know seems to be able to
> relate! I just didn't want to dump it all out there on Day 1. :p
>
> My name is Kim, DH (since 93) is Geoff, and our son is Damon (4). We live in
> Hillsboro, Oregon, just on the west side of Portland. We've lived here 8
> years and I do not have a hometown, my dad was active military so I have
> lived in many states and seen most of this great country of ours.
>
> Thanks for the online community.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think there is probably also an Oregon group on the Radical
Unschoolers Network: http://familyrun.ning.com/ I know that there
is a PNW group.-=-
The good thing about that site is that there are photos, and there's
humor, and it can be way chit-chatty. For those who like the more
personal details, those ning sites have the potential to bring a
whole different aspect.
Another thing to consider is blogs. It's not the same as having kids
for your kids to play with, but they could potentially lead to that
(road trips/visits).
http://thinkingsticks.blogspot.com
There are links to recent blog posts on the left side there, and just
about every blog leads to ten or so other unschoolers' blogs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Unschoolers Network: http://familyrun.ning.com/ I know that there
is a PNW group.-=-
The good thing about that site is that there are photos, and there's
humor, and it can be way chit-chatty. For those who like the more
personal details, those ning sites have the potential to bring a
whole different aspect.
Another thing to consider is blogs. It's not the same as having kids
for your kids to play with, but they could potentially lead to that
(road trips/visits).
http://thinkingsticks.blogspot.com
There are links to recent blog posts on the left side there, and just
about every blog leads to ten or so other unschoolers' blogs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
> Yes, it is hard to find other radical unschoolers :)Yes it is! I never thought it would be so hard! To me, unschooling is
so happy and cool, I mean, how could that not be contagious! I have
spent so much of my life believing that people want to seek out
happiness, and to find that it really isn't the case for so many, is so
hard for me to grasp!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/>
Thanks for that link, I'm going to check it out. I unsubbed from the
local list because of the hostility and fear based parenting being
presented there. It's like this for me, if it's not happy making, turn
toward what is, just turn around and face the other direction. For me,
the only way to not get sucked back into that was to unsub, with mixed
feelings, but ultimately, if those folks aren't digging radical
unschooling, do I really want to be chummy with them, in person, if they
are so mean online?
> I think there is probably also an Oregon group on the RadicalI just started one specific for our area, so you can search Portland,
> Unschoolers Network: http://familyrun.ning.com/ I know that there
> is a PNW group.
you will find it.
That's all local specific stuff above, so I'll just add this....
In general, with all things, if something is causing fear and anxiety
and you turn away from that and towards what is happy, everyone in your
family will benefit. Not one single person in this whole wide world can
be convinced that unschooling will work and work fabulously, unless they
really want it! I'm not going to convince a meat eater to become a
vegetarian unless they were considering it to begin with! If someone
is stuck in their belief that controlling kids is the only way to raise
kids, then gosh darn it, they will do that and lots of it and come up
with all sorts of arguments to convince me it's the case! And, no,
anecdotal information doesn't count to counter their belief system, as
so much of the information on unschooling is anecdotal.
I was re-reading "How Children Learn", last night, partly to recharge my
thinking, and was once again intrigued by his thinking. I really liked
what he was saying about studies done on children, and his conviction
that anecdotal information is often more reliable, even if you are going
off of someone's word or interpretation, because, studies done on
children inherently take them out of their natural environment, while an
observational study won't. Well, that's what I got out of it when I was
reading last night, others may have another take on this idea.
So many studies done on children are skewed in the perspective on the
maker of the study. Not only that, they are done on school children,
and I see a huge huge difference in how my always unschooled children
are and how they behave and interact with the world! A long time ago,
Sandra, said that unschooled children are like the control group. I
like that! How can so many studies on children, not have a control
group?! Staticians don't even see school in that manner affecting
studies and outcomes of those studies!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gwen
I've thought about creating a radical unschooling group for my area, but there was already a local unschooling group and it seemed kind of obnoxious to start yet another group.
But after reading this week, I decided I was ok with being obnoxious :-)
So, I created a Radical Unschooling Group for Portland:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PortlandRadicalUnschooling
Gwen
But after reading this week, I decided I was ok with being obnoxious :-)
So, I created a Radical Unschooling Group for Portland:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PortlandRadicalUnschooling
Gwen
--- On Sat, 11/22/08, Jenny C <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
Yes it is! I never thought it would be so hard! To me, unschooling is
so happy and cool, I mean, how could that not be contagious! I have
spent so much of my life believing that people want to seek out
happiness, and to find that it really isn't the case for so many, is so
hard for me to grasp!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
So, I created a Radical Unschooling Group for Portland:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PortlandRadicalUnschooling
Cool! Would you consider taking "national" out of the description of
big lists? I'll add it to my links here:
http://sandradodd.com/world
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PortlandRadicalUnschooling
Cool! Would you consider taking "national" out of the description of
big lists? I'll add it to my links here:
http://sandradodd.com/world
Jill Parmer
I've found unschoolers who apply the principles to their whole lives
especially far and few between. It's sweet when that happens, but in
the meantime I've learned not to bemoan that, and to put the energy
into my kids and family.
A few days ago I was on a panel (for school options that a local
small private school put on); I spoke on unschooling. I went into it
(naively) thinking that people would be so jazzed about unschooling.
I was thinking along the lines of what Jenny said, "To me,
unschooling is so happy and cool, I mean, how could that not be
contagious!"
Now, I get that perhaps I need better public speaking skills, so that
might've been part of the problem. But I saw people get so excited
about charter schools and school at home with a curriculum. I heard
people who homeschool with a curriculum say, "We unschool part of the
time." Huh???
I've met Sandra's kids and Pam's kids and others; they clearly walk
their talk. My kids and I were just talking yesterday about how much
fun Marty is... we were reminiscing about the killer game we played
at Life is Good (unschooling conference) a year and a half ago. We
were comparing it to a game we had played yesterday with some kids
who were so busy controlling what everyone was doing that they often
missed our teammates going in to capture the flag. Ironically, the
loudest kid complaining about things was kid whose mom says "We're
unschoolers", but the kids go to school two days a week.
Discussion on this list gives me plenty to think about and apply and
I'm so lucky to be here.
Many many thanks to Sandra for collecting all that she has over the
years, I've used her site and herself for so much invaluable
information. Happy Seventh Anniversary.
~Jill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
especially far and few between. It's sweet when that happens, but in
the meantime I've learned not to bemoan that, and to put the energy
into my kids and family.
A few days ago I was on a panel (for school options that a local
small private school put on); I spoke on unschooling. I went into it
(naively) thinking that people would be so jazzed about unschooling.
I was thinking along the lines of what Jenny said, "To me,
unschooling is so happy and cool, I mean, how could that not be
contagious!"
Now, I get that perhaps I need better public speaking skills, so that
might've been part of the problem. But I saw people get so excited
about charter schools and school at home with a curriculum. I heard
people who homeschool with a curriculum say, "We unschool part of the
time." Huh???
I've met Sandra's kids and Pam's kids and others; they clearly walk
their talk. My kids and I were just talking yesterday about how much
fun Marty is... we were reminiscing about the killer game we played
at Life is Good (unschooling conference) a year and a half ago. We
were comparing it to a game we had played yesterday with some kids
who were so busy controlling what everyone was doing that they often
missed our teammates going in to capture the flag. Ironically, the
loudest kid complaining about things was kid whose mom says "We're
unschoolers", but the kids go to school two days a week.
Discussion on this list gives me plenty to think about and apply and
I'm so lucky to be here.
Many many thanks to Sandra for collecting all that she has over the
years, I've used her site and herself for so much invaluable
information. Happy Seventh Anniversary.
~Jill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
susanleeb52
My own experience with lists and parenting advice is that I either want
to ask a big, international radical-unschooling list comprised of total
strangers, or I want to ask a good friend at the park.
Anything in between, I think it's just too difficult to discuss any
kind of sticky issue (politics, reproductive rights, parenting) without
someone getting all huffy.
Susan in AZ
(who is endlessly grateful for the local radical unschoolers!)
to ask a big, international radical-unschooling list comprised of total
strangers, or I want to ask a good friend at the park.
Anything in between, I think it's just too difficult to discuss any
kind of sticky issue (politics, reproductive rights, parenting) without
someone getting all huffy.
Susan in AZ
(who is endlessly grateful for the local radical unschoolers!)
Robyn L. Coburn
There's a quick test that I discovered. You can ask with neutral demeanor if
they have heard of or read any Sandra Dodd. If they haven't, they are
probably massively uninformed or very new. If they smile and nod or want to
ask questions you can go on from there. If they sneer or harrumph or start
talking disdainfully about being flamed, well then you know they probably
are hold outs of some kind, and you know to be cautious.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
they have heard of or read any Sandra Dodd. If they haven't, they are
probably massively uninformed or very new. If they smile and nod or want to
ask questions you can go on from there. If they sneer or harrumph or start
talking disdainfully about being flamed, well then you know they probably
are hold outs of some kind, and you know to be cautious.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Kim Zerbe
Thanks Gwen! I didn't think it would matter that much how people are raising
their children, and most of the time it really doesn't, but it does when I
am looking on an unschooling group for comeraderie and not getting it. In
fact, getting the opposite with hostile treatment, name calling, and lots of
defensiveness about how it's OK for them to limit certain things and not OK
for anyone else to question that.
I'm a little overwhelmed with "lists" at the moment, but I think I will go
ahead and join yours and perhaps unjoin the other one (not sure yet, but for
the moment I am not reading or commenting there). I need to go where people
are happy like Jenny says! And I kind of wondered if that conversation on
our local board would separate the RUs from the "others" and I might find
some of you here! Now I just need to figure out a way to meet some more of
you IRL! Join Jenny's Portland group on ning too. :)
Kim
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Gwen
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Can I talk here?
I've thought about creating a radical unschooling group for my area, but
there was already a local unschooling group and it seemed kind of obnoxious
to start yet another group.
But after reading this week, I decided I was ok with being obnoxious :-)
So, I created a Radical Unschooling Group for Portland:
http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PortlandRadicalUnschooling>
yahoo.com/group/PortlandRadicalUnschooling
Gwen
--- On Sat, 11/22/08, Jenny C <jenstarc4@yahoo.
<mailto:jenstarc4%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
Yes it is! I never thought it would be so hard! To me, unschooling is
so happy and cool, I mean, how could that not be contagious! I have
spent so much of my life believing that people want to seek out
happiness, and to find that it really isn't the case for so many, is so
hard for me to grasp!
yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/
<http://groups.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/>
yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
their children, and most of the time it really doesn't, but it does when I
am looking on an unschooling group for comeraderie and not getting it. In
fact, getting the opposite with hostile treatment, name calling, and lots of
defensiveness about how it's OK for them to limit certain things and not OK
for anyone else to question that.
I'm a little overwhelmed with "lists" at the moment, but I think I will go
ahead and join yours and perhaps unjoin the other one (not sure yet, but for
the moment I am not reading or commenting there). I need to go where people
are happy like Jenny says! And I kind of wondered if that conversation on
our local board would separate the RUs from the "others" and I might find
some of you here! Now I just need to figure out a way to meet some more of
you IRL! Join Jenny's Portland group on ning too. :)
Kim
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Gwen
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Can I talk here?
I've thought about creating a radical unschooling group for my area, but
there was already a local unschooling group and it seemed kind of obnoxious
to start yet another group.
But after reading this week, I decided I was ok with being obnoxious :-)
So, I created a Radical Unschooling Group for Portland:
http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PortlandRadicalUnschooling>
yahoo.com/group/PortlandRadicalUnschooling
Gwen
--- On Sat, 11/22/08, Jenny C <jenstarc4@yahoo.
<mailto:jenstarc4%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
Yes it is! I never thought it would be so hard! To me, unschooling is
so happy and cool, I mean, how could that not be contagious! I have
spent so much of my life believing that people want to seek out
happiness, and to find that it really isn't the case for so many, is so
hard for me to grasp!
> http://groups.<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/>
yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/
<http://groups.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/>
yahoo.com/group/WashingtonRadicalUnschoolers/>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
Thank you Sandra. Jenny was trying to explain how what they are doing now
will not translate into good relationships with their kids once they are
teenagers, and they just didn't want to hear it. You can lead a horse to
water (they did join the group!) but you can't make him drink.
My reason for joining the local group was mainly to meet other like minded
parents IRL, to expand my social circle to include some unschoolers. But in
conversations on the board I found that we were NOT like minded and
therefore I had no desire to go to any of the meetups where I could have met
some new friends. I already have friends who are raising their kids in all
sorts of ways (and we respect each other), some of whom send their kids to
school and yet are much more respectful of them than the women on that
board.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I know I didn't really post a real
question, just a frustration, so thanks for relating to it.
Kim Zerbe in Portland
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I talk here?
-=-So I sought out my local unschoolers
list. And I am disappointed. It is not anything like these
national/international lists. -=-
This is discussion, though. There are people here who might
disappoint you in person.
-=-It's like a bunch of homeschoolers have latched on to the term
unschooling and think it only means that they do not use a set
curriculum in their school at home. For them it does not extend to
their lives, to parenting, or in general respecting their kids. -=-
That's the other edge of unschooling. It's unschooling. It's not
the kind of unschooling that creates the results radical unschoolers
are getting. They'll end up with the same bad relationships with
their teens, and maybe the kids will decide they'd rather go to
school than stay home, because there won't be the same warmth and
acceptance. The parents are not as likely to have the depth of
compassion they would have for their kids if they didn't have the
overlay of a checklist of missed chores and broken rules.
-=-The vibe of some recent posts is basically a few women (mostly
with younger children) telling everyone how they live with certain
structures, controls, and limits for their kids and basically saying
that's what works for their family so don't question it.-=-
When people say they don't want to be questioned, or they want to be
"respected" or that all parents should support all other parents,
they're not ready for any sort of philosophical discussion. The kind
of unschooling we discuss here is based in principles, and those
can't be discussed or understood without the willingness to change
and examine one's thoughts. That's what philosophy is, looking at
beliefs and how beliefs affect thought, words and actions.
We can't change those other people, but we can provide discussion of
beliefs, though, language and action.
-=-Is this common in smaller local groups? I am so sad that I am not
getting to meet other similar minded folks.-=-
Unschoolers are very rare. Good unschoolers are even rarer. Yes,
this group is pretty damned special. <g>
-=-Just wondering what to do now. I suppose I should just stop
reading over there. Yeah, tell me the obvious. Anyway, I'm here to
learn!-=-
If you can read that other one without frustration, maybe you could
at least recommend webpages or other lists occasionally, for the
benefit of the undecided. And honestly, if those families have
younger kids and they're not going to commit to unschooling at such a
depth that it will really stick, they'll probably be moving toward a
curriculum before long or putting kids in school. Some will want to
move further into unschooling.
I quit a statewide yahoogroup that I myself had formed and owned
because I got jumped on for saying one unschooling thing in a year.
I was doing them a favor to keep that list operational and
advertised, and the one time I wanted to defend unschoolers I got
pounded by newish-to-homeschooling know-nothings. I'd bet any amount
of money that all their kids have been in school for years now and
that they're spending their time complaining with other parents about
how hard it is to be a parent. My kids, meanwhile, are sweet and
present and tell me they love me.
Have the people on your local list gotten this support link?
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd.com/support> com/support
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
will not translate into good relationships with their kids once they are
teenagers, and they just didn't want to hear it. You can lead a horse to
water (they did join the group!) but you can't make him drink.
My reason for joining the local group was mainly to meet other like minded
parents IRL, to expand my social circle to include some unschoolers. But in
conversations on the board I found that we were NOT like minded and
therefore I had no desire to go to any of the meetups where I could have met
some new friends. I already have friends who are raising their kids in all
sorts of ways (and we respect each other), some of whom send their kids to
school and yet are much more respectful of them than the women on that
board.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I know I didn't really post a real
question, just a frustration, so thanks for relating to it.
Kim Zerbe in Portland
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I talk here?
-=-So I sought out my local unschoolers
list. And I am disappointed. It is not anything like these
national/international lists. -=-
This is discussion, though. There are people here who might
disappoint you in person.
-=-It's like a bunch of homeschoolers have latched on to the term
unschooling and think it only means that they do not use a set
curriculum in their school at home. For them it does not extend to
their lives, to parenting, or in general respecting their kids. -=-
That's the other edge of unschooling. It's unschooling. It's not
the kind of unschooling that creates the results radical unschoolers
are getting. They'll end up with the same bad relationships with
their teens, and maybe the kids will decide they'd rather go to
school than stay home, because there won't be the same warmth and
acceptance. The parents are not as likely to have the depth of
compassion they would have for their kids if they didn't have the
overlay of a checklist of missed chores and broken rules.
-=-The vibe of some recent posts is basically a few women (mostly
with younger children) telling everyone how they live with certain
structures, controls, and limits for their kids and basically saying
that's what works for their family so don't question it.-=-
When people say they don't want to be questioned, or they want to be
"respected" or that all parents should support all other parents,
they're not ready for any sort of philosophical discussion. The kind
of unschooling we discuss here is based in principles, and those
can't be discussed or understood without the willingness to change
and examine one's thoughts. That's what philosophy is, looking at
beliefs and how beliefs affect thought, words and actions.
We can't change those other people, but we can provide discussion of
beliefs, though, language and action.
-=-Is this common in smaller local groups? I am so sad that I am not
getting to meet other similar minded folks.-=-
Unschoolers are very rare. Good unschoolers are even rarer. Yes,
this group is pretty damned special. <g>
-=-Just wondering what to do now. I suppose I should just stop
reading over there. Yeah, tell me the obvious. Anyway, I'm here to
learn!-=-
If you can read that other one without frustration, maybe you could
at least recommend webpages or other lists occasionally, for the
benefit of the undecided. And honestly, if those families have
younger kids and they're not going to commit to unschooling at such a
depth that it will really stick, they'll probably be moving toward a
curriculum before long or putting kids in school. Some will want to
move further into unschooling.
I quit a statewide yahoogroup that I myself had formed and owned
because I got jumped on for saying one unschooling thing in a year.
I was doing them a favor to keep that list operational and
advertised, and the one time I wanted to defend unschoolers I got
pounded by newish-to-homeschooling know-nothings. I'd bet any amount
of money that all their kids have been in school for years now and
that they're spending their time complaining with other parents about
how hard it is to be a parent. My kids, meanwhile, are sweet and
present and tell me they love me.
Have the people on your local list gotten this support link?
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd.com/support> com/support
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
I have joined there. I'm just finding it easier to read emails that come to
my inbox than remembering to log in or go to that site! I can see the value
of it, but the info is all over the place, you almost have to search for
things that interest you. I need to post a photo there and probably spend
more time looking around. ;)
I have read LOTS of blogs! They do help me get a good feeling for what other
people are doing. I get ideas and encouragement from reading those. It is
time consuming though, so I have to be careful about being there too much
and not with my kids, you know?! It's hard to feel like a good mother when
I'm online trying to learn how to be more of a positive parent while my son
is playing wii alone (not that he needs me for that, I just want to share it
with him, the best is when I can be on a laptop in the room with him to
share in his victories and still be reading).
Kim Z
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 3:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I talk here?
-=-I think there is probably also an Oregon group on the Radical
Unschoolers Network: http://familyrun. <http://familyrun.ning.com/>
ning.com/ I know that there
is a PNW group.-=-
The good thing about that site is that there are photos, and there's
humor, and it can be way chit-chatty. For those who like the more
personal details, those ning sites have the potential to bring a
whole different aspect.
Another thing to consider is blogs. It's not the same as having kids
for your kids to play with, but they could potentially lead to that
(road trips/visits).
http://thinkingstic <http://thinkingsticks.blogspot.com> ks.blogspot.com
There are links to recent blog posts on the left side there, and just
about every blog leads to ten or so other unschoolers' blogs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my inbox than remembering to log in or go to that site! I can see the value
of it, but the info is all over the place, you almost have to search for
things that interest you. I need to post a photo there and probably spend
more time looking around. ;)
I have read LOTS of blogs! They do help me get a good feeling for what other
people are doing. I get ideas and encouragement from reading those. It is
time consuming though, so I have to be careful about being there too much
and not with my kids, you know?! It's hard to feel like a good mother when
I'm online trying to learn how to be more of a positive parent while my son
is playing wii alone (not that he needs me for that, I just want to share it
with him, the best is when I can be on a laptop in the room with him to
share in his victories and still be reading).
Kim Z
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 3:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I talk here?
-=-I think there is probably also an Oregon group on the Radical
Unschoolers Network: http://familyrun. <http://familyrun.ning.com/>
ning.com/ I know that there
is a PNW group.-=-
The good thing about that site is that there are photos, and there's
humor, and it can be way chit-chatty. For those who like the more
personal details, those ning sites have the potential to bring a
whole different aspect.
Another thing to consider is blogs. It's not the same as having kids
for your kids to play with, but they could potentially lead to that
(road trips/visits).
http://thinkingstic <http://thinkingsticks.blogspot.com> ks.blogspot.com
There are links to recent blog posts on the left side there, and just
about every blog leads to ten or so other unschoolers' blogs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
LMAO Robyn! That is too funny! I have read a ton on Sandra's site because of
links provided by others in various places. That's when I realized I was on
the same path, just closer to the beginning of it. The info there makes so
much sense to me and I can relate to it. Something is resonating within me,
I just need to find ways to get my husband on the same path so we can live
peacefully within our family (he is half way there without knowing it, he
usually has a respectful way of dealing with our son, but blows up way
sooner than I do and is worried about him missing out on what "school" is
supposed to provide for kids). I figure I have a year or 2 to show him how
we are going to be better off in the long run without sending him to school!
I'm starting by really trying to unschool all of our lives and treating
everyone including him (DH) with respect and empathy and understanding. It
feels good.
I guess to find others on the same path, I needed to go to the source (this
list!), I just perceived it for those who knew what they were doing more
than for me who was not quite sure. Not sure why I thought that, but I'm
glad I finally joined!
Kim Z
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Robyn L. Coburn
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 5:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I talk here?
There's a quick test that I discovered. You can ask with neutral demeanor if
they have heard of or read any Sandra Dodd. If they haven't, they are
probably massively uninformed or very new. If they smile and nod or want to
ask questions you can go on from there. If they sneer or harrumph or start
talking disdainfully about being flamed, well then you know they probably
are hold outs of some kind, and you know to be cautious.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
links provided by others in various places. That's when I realized I was on
the same path, just closer to the beginning of it. The info there makes so
much sense to me and I can relate to it. Something is resonating within me,
I just need to find ways to get my husband on the same path so we can live
peacefully within our family (he is half way there without knowing it, he
usually has a respectful way of dealing with our son, but blows up way
sooner than I do and is worried about him missing out on what "school" is
supposed to provide for kids). I figure I have a year or 2 to show him how
we are going to be better off in the long run without sending him to school!
I'm starting by really trying to unschool all of our lives and treating
everyone including him (DH) with respect and empathy and understanding. It
feels good.
I guess to find others on the same path, I needed to go to the source (this
list!), I just perceived it for those who knew what they were doing more
than for me who was not quite sure. Not sure why I thought that, but I'm
glad I finally joined!
Kim Z
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Robyn L. Coburn
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 5:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I talk here?
There's a quick test that I discovered. You can ask with neutral demeanor if
they have heard of or read any Sandra Dodd. If they haven't, they are
probably massively uninformed or very new. If they smile and nod or want to
ask questions you can go on from there. If they sneer or harrumph or start
talking disdainfully about being flamed, well then you know they probably
are hold outs of some kind, and you know to be cautious.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have joined there. I'm just finding it easier to read emails
that come to
my inbox than remembering to log in or go to that site! I can see the
value
of it, but the info is all over the place, you almost have to search for
things that interest you. I need to post a photo there and probably
spend
more time looking around. ;)-=-
I don't go there every day, but what I use most is the discussion
forum. When you go to the site click forum in the top right (if
you're interested in that, I mean), and if you find a good
discussion, at the bottom right, click "follow." Then you'll get an
e-mail with a link if anyone posts to that.
If you start your own topic, you'll get an e-mail when anyone else
posts, too.
The forum we're talking about is
http://familyrun.ning.com/
and here's my page
http://familyrun.ning.com/profile/SandraDodd
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that come to
my inbox than remembering to log in or go to that site! I can see the
value
of it, but the info is all over the place, you almost have to search for
things that interest you. I need to post a photo there and probably
spend
more time looking around. ;)-=-
I don't go there every day, but what I use most is the discussion
forum. When you go to the site click forum in the top right (if
you're interested in that, I mean), and if you find a good
discussion, at the bottom right, click "follow." Then you'll get an
e-mail with a link if anyone posts to that.
If you start your own topic, you'll get an e-mail when anyone else
posts, too.
The forum we're talking about is
http://familyrun.ning.com/
and here's my page
http://familyrun.ning.com/profile/SandraDodd
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If they sneer or harrumph or start
talking disdainfully about being flamed...--=-
Yikes. It's pretty sad to be some kind of boogeyman. People who
have never had any direction communication with me will roll their
eyes and act like they know all about me.
Luckily, I had some experience with that from having been a corporate
office of an organization that attracts some nut cases and dramatic
humans (the SCA). It attracts great artists and wonderful people
too, but those aren't the sneering, harrumphing sort.
Perhaps unschooling attracts nut cases too, but maybe my powers of
bullshit detection cause them to stay away (some of them, perhaps).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
talking disdainfully about being flamed...--=-
Yikes. It's pretty sad to be some kind of boogeyman. People who
have never had any direction communication with me will roll their
eyes and act like they know all about me.
Luckily, I had some experience with that from having been a corporate
office of an organization that attracts some nut cases and dramatic
humans (the SCA). It attracts great artists and wonderful people
too, but those aren't the sneering, harrumphing sort.
Perhaps unschooling attracts nut cases too, but maybe my powers of
bullshit detection cause them to stay away (some of them, perhaps).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/2008 6:52:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kim.zerbe@... writes:
<<<I made the mistake of
questioning some of these things and seriously people came out of the
woodwork to tell me off! >>>
What I've found that works very well on the local level in mixed
homeschool/academic unschool groups is coming to a subject from my point of view. I
found early on that even mild questions directed in someone else's direction got
negative reactions, so I started talking about what works in our family, what
my kids' lives look like, different options I tried before I decided on
something and *why* something works for one of the people in my family. I've
gotten a lot of positive comments on the side and in person, and quite a few (for
the size of my local homeschool group) really asking questions and wanting
to learn more. I've had moms tell me that because of what I've shared on the
local homeschool group, they've relaxed about their own homeschooling. I've
heard through the grapevine that some people still get upset about what I write
(even thought it's about my own and my family's own experiences), but
there's not a group "ganging up" on anyone for any particular viewpoint on that
group.
I, too, started my own local unschooling group and though it's slow, it's
got good conversation. :~) I think the owner of the group really sets the
tone. It's young yet, and the members kind of far-flung, so I figure it will
probably take time for it to really warm up and get flowing.
Peace,
De
**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kim.zerbe@... writes:
<<<I made the mistake of
questioning some of these things and seriously people came out of the
woodwork to tell me off! >>>
What I've found that works very well on the local level in mixed
homeschool/academic unschool groups is coming to a subject from my point of view. I
found early on that even mild questions directed in someone else's direction got
negative reactions, so I started talking about what works in our family, what
my kids' lives look like, different options I tried before I decided on
something and *why* something works for one of the people in my family. I've
gotten a lot of positive comments on the side and in person, and quite a few (for
the size of my local homeschool group) really asking questions and wanting
to learn more. I've had moms tell me that because of what I've shared on the
local homeschool group, they've relaxed about their own homeschooling. I've
heard through the grapevine that some people still get upset about what I write
(even thought it's about my own and my family's own experiences), but
there's not a group "ganging up" on anyone for any particular viewpoint on that
group.
I, too, started my own local unschooling group and though it's slow, it's
got good conversation. :~) I think the owner of the group really sets the
tone. It's young yet, and the members kind of far-flung, so I figure it will
probably take time for it to really warm up and get flowing.
Peace,
De
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<<> Perhaps unschooling attracts nut cases too, but maybe my powers of
by Sandra on UD (her words - I'm sure the communication would NOT have been
any kind of personal attack or mean spirited as the word "flame" implies)
she ran an "unschooling" support group that facilitated so many organized
early academics classes and group outings to educational places for
pre-school aged children, as Jayn was then, that it sounded like..well... a
preschool - with weekly field trips to the park. I immediately knew it
wasn't a group that was worth the long drive for me or Jayn.
Not a nut case so much as maybe a sad case. She was turning away from and
discounting some wonderful life changing possibilities freely offered at
www.sandradodd.com . But she seemed perfectly satisfied with her group and
her approach.
Michael Shermer (Skeptic Magazine) talks about "baloney detectors" - or the
absence of same. Here's a link to his TED talk.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/michael_shermer_on_believing_strange_things.html
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> bullshit detection cause them to stay away (some of them, perhaps).>>>>The last time I encountered someone who said that she had once been flamed
by Sandra on UD (her words - I'm sure the communication would NOT have been
any kind of personal attack or mean spirited as the word "flame" implies)
she ran an "unschooling" support group that facilitated so many organized
early academics classes and group outings to educational places for
pre-school aged children, as Jayn was then, that it sounded like..well... a
preschool - with weekly field trips to the park. I immediately knew it
wasn't a group that was worth the long drive for me or Jayn.
Not a nut case so much as maybe a sad case. She was turning away from and
discounting some wonderful life changing possibilities freely offered at
www.sandradodd.com . But she seemed perfectly satisfied with her group and
her approach.
Michael Shermer (Skeptic Magazine) talks about "baloney detectors" - or the
absence of same. Here's a link to his TED talk.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/michael_shermer_on_believing_strange_things.html
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-Michael Shermer (Skeptic Magazine) talks about "baloney detectors"
- or the
absence of same.-=-
I watched that. It was interesting!
It's not the same as what I was thinking, though. Some people are
inconsistent and dishonest and from the beginning reveal a disconnect
between their words and their tone, or their words and their own
other words. Some people don't mind and more don't notice. I notice
and I mind.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- or the
absence of same.-=-
I watched that. It was interesting!
It's not the same as what I was thinking, though. Some people are
inconsistent and dishonest and from the beginning reveal a disconnect
between their words and their tone, or their words and their own
other words. Some people don't mind and more don't notice. I notice
and I mind.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela Shaw
<Perhaps unschooling attracts nut cases too, but maybe my powers of
bullshit detection cause them to stay away (some of them, perhaps). >
I have found that it attracts people who have been deeply wounded in their
own childhood and who want better for their own children. Unfortunately,
some are still living a reactive life instead of a proactive happy
unschooling life.
Angela ~ who stopped seeking out unschoolers and is happy to have children
with kind respectful friends who go to school.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bullshit detection cause them to stay away (some of them, perhaps). >
I have found that it attracts people who have been deeply wounded in their
own childhood and who want better for their own children. Unfortunately,
some are still living a reactive life instead of a proactive happy
unschooling life.
Angela ~ who stopped seeking out unschoolers and is happy to have children
with kind respectful friends who go to school.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
Some people are
I'd be comfortable saying in person. It inherently changes my tone.
> inconsistent and dishonest and from the beginning reveal a disconnectSomething that I started doing a long time ago, was to only write what
> between their words and their tone, or their words and their own
> other words.
I'd be comfortable saying in person. It inherently changes my tone.
Jenny C
I've
saying, as a judgement call, even though it's not. People project. If
you say, for instance that you dislike spanking and you don't do it in
your family and here's why and here's what has worked better, and the
other person is in the midst of spanking and advocating for spanking
their own children, they may feel that you dislike them because they
spank, and not just the behavior of spanking.
I was trying to explain in one conversation that allowing children as
young as 2, to use sharp knives and helping them and guiding them, was
different than saying "no" as a rule. Someone responded back, that it
may be fine with me to let little kids play with knives, but for her and
her family, they'd continue having a no knife rule. The fact is, I'd
never LET my kids play with knives and I've never seen my kids try to
play with knives. They wanted to USE them, just like I was, it was
natural curiousity about copying what the adult was doing and wanting to
try. That's how kids learn.
It's clarity in words and thinking, something, that to a large degree, I
learned from reading and writing with others that were clear in their
words and thinking. It makes a difference!
> heard through the grapevine that some people still get upset aboutwhat I write
> (even thought it's about my own and my family's own experiences),I think that happens when someone is taking personally what you are
saying, as a judgement call, even though it's not. People project. If
you say, for instance that you dislike spanking and you don't do it in
your family and here's why and here's what has worked better, and the
other person is in the midst of spanking and advocating for spanking
their own children, they may feel that you dislike them because they
spank, and not just the behavior of spanking.
I was trying to explain in one conversation that allowing children as
young as 2, to use sharp knives and helping them and guiding them, was
different than saying "no" as a rule. Someone responded back, that it
may be fine with me to let little kids play with knives, but for her and
her family, they'd continue having a no knife rule. The fact is, I'd
never LET my kids play with knives and I've never seen my kids try to
play with knives. They wanted to USE them, just like I was, it was
natural curiousity about copying what the adult was doing and wanting to
try. That's how kids learn.
It's clarity in words and thinking, something, that to a large degree, I
learned from reading and writing with others that were clear in their
words and thinking. It makes a difference!
Sandra Dodd
-=-If you say, for instance that you dislike spanking and you don't
do it in
your family and here's why and here's what has worked better, and the
other person is in the midst of spanking and advocating for spanking
their own children, they may feel that you dislike them because they
spank, and not just the behavior of spanking.-=-
This sort of emotional and philosophical distortion can be taken too
far, though. If someone argues for spanking, and sees herself as a
well-justified spanker who will never change her stance, where does
"just the behavior of spanking" and "them because they spank" have a
difference?
-=-I was trying to explain in one conversation that allowing children
as young as 2, to use sharp knives and helping them and guiding them,
was different than saying "no" as a rule. Someone responded back,
that it may be fine with me to let little kids play with knives, but
for her and her family, they'd continue having a no knife rule. -=-
There are plastic knives and wooden toy knives and table knives, and
there's using knives to put butter on bread and then using knives to
throw at mostly-naked ladies on spinning wheels in carnivals, and a
huge range in between.
I know there is a long tradition of the Christian platitude "hate the
sin but love the sinner." I think that's because sinners might
become tithers.
If I hate bullshit, how can I love the bullshitters? Bullshit
doesn't create itself.
In the Christian model (in the fundamentalist platitude-spouting
model to which I'm referring), sin is something foisted on people by
their disobedience and by the devil (or by God as a test, depending
how you look at), but it's not that sin comes out of people, it's
that people who might be born again any moment (and start giving
money to the church) are lured in by the spiritual elemental *thing*
that is sin.
So. Can you dislike spanking and like a spanker?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
do it in
your family and here's why and here's what has worked better, and the
other person is in the midst of spanking and advocating for spanking
their own children, they may feel that you dislike them because they
spank, and not just the behavior of spanking.-=-
This sort of emotional and philosophical distortion can be taken too
far, though. If someone argues for spanking, and sees herself as a
well-justified spanker who will never change her stance, where does
"just the behavior of spanking" and "them because they spank" have a
difference?
-=-I was trying to explain in one conversation that allowing children
as young as 2, to use sharp knives and helping them and guiding them,
was different than saying "no" as a rule. Someone responded back,
that it may be fine with me to let little kids play with knives, but
for her and her family, they'd continue having a no knife rule. -=-
There are plastic knives and wooden toy knives and table knives, and
there's using knives to put butter on bread and then using knives to
throw at mostly-naked ladies on spinning wheels in carnivals, and a
huge range in between.
I know there is a long tradition of the Christian platitude "hate the
sin but love the sinner." I think that's because sinners might
become tithers.
If I hate bullshit, how can I love the bullshitters? Bullshit
doesn't create itself.
In the Christian model (in the fundamentalist platitude-spouting
model to which I'm referring), sin is something foisted on people by
their disobedience and by the devil (or by God as a test, depending
how you look at), but it's not that sin comes out of people, it's
that people who might be born again any moment (and start giving
money to the church) are lured in by the spiritual elemental *thing*
that is sin.
So. Can you dislike spanking and like a spanker?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>Totally! The example that was used, which I guess, I didn't bring here,
> There are plastic knives and wooden toy knives and table knives, and
> there's using knives to put butter on bread and then using knives to
> throw at mostly-naked ladies on spinning wheels in carnivals, and a
> huge range in between.
was specifically a steak knife. The mom feared that if she let her
daughter eat with a steak knife, she would stab herself and bleed to
death, and therefore she had a "no" sharp knife rule because she wanted
her little kids to be safe.
And, I was just thinking in the car on the way home from the grocery
store a few minutes ago, that if Chamille or Margaux wanted to use a
knife in a playful manner, they would probably be able to do so, because
they are safe with sharp things. How else would a person learn how to
juggle knives or throw them at spinning ladies in a circus, if they
never PLAYED with them?
>Well, I do love my sister, even though she spanks her kids and punishes
> So. Can you dislike spanking and like a spanker?
>
and schools at home because she doesn't want the evil bad non-christian
influence surrounding her kids. Although, I don't necessarily extend
that same generosity to strangers that I've never met before.
So, in real life, I try to give the benefit of the doubt and local
boards tend to offer, real life possibilities of meeting people.
However, if those people prove in real life or online to be a pain in
the neck, I'll change my mind and have an informed opinion based on
their behavior. So, someone who spanks their kids, may have other
redeeming qualities and may come to see the error of their ways, but if
it's so big and huge and influencing in their lives, it would be hard to
reconcile putting a lot of effort into that relationship.
I've lost friends over similar things. The mother of one of my
daughter's friends, is a pretty cool person in a lot of ways. We were
friends for years, but it eventually came to a point where it was hard
to be around her and her daughter when the mom was always belittling and
shaming and guilting her daughter. We started just inviting the
daughter over and now the daughter is old enough, where she's starting
to exhibit this same sort of behavior, and we've stopped asking her over
too.
Sandra Dodd
-=-the mom was always belittling and
shaming and guilting her daughter. We started just inviting the
daughter over and now the daughter is old enough, where she's starting
to exhibit this same sort of behavior, and we've stopped asking her over
too.-=-
Oh yikes. I don't think I had thought of it that way, that simply
isolating the child still isn't safety from the behavior of the parents.
I'll be on the lookout with that in a couple of Holly's friends whose
moms were friends of mine once. Maybe they won't become their moms
and maybe they will. Maybe the behavior won't be as irritating to
Holly as it was to me if they do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
shaming and guilting her daughter. We started just inviting the
daughter over and now the daughter is old enough, where she's starting
to exhibit this same sort of behavior, and we've stopped asking her over
too.-=-
Oh yikes. I don't think I had thought of it that way, that simply
isolating the child still isn't safety from the behavior of the parents.
I'll be on the lookout with that in a couple of Holly's friends whose
moms were friends of mine once. Maybe they won't become their moms
and maybe they will. Maybe the behavior won't be as irritating to
Holly as it was to me if they do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
>>>I've lost friends over similar things. The mother of one of my
daughter's friends, is a pretty cool person in a lot of ways. We were
friends for years, but it eventually came to a point where it was hard
to be around her and her daughter when the mom was always belittling and
shaming and guilting her daughter. We started just inviting the
daughter over and now the daughter is old enough, where she's starting
to exhibit this same sort of behavior, and we've stopped asking her over
too.
>>>>i feel really torn reading these emails, because i feel i have been on both "ends" or "sides" these secenarios. i have been the one who is "slow" to "get it" and who benefitted *tremendously* from the kind and loving modeling, (and perhaps could have benefitted from more direct prodding) from my friends who DID 'get it" - and i have also, i feel, been on the side of "getting it" - whatever "it" is - and of helping to transform/inspire someone else's approach - sometimes quickly, sometimes more slowly.
i was trying to decide what it was about my relationships with folks who got it more than i did, that made our relationship work and made it so they didn't give up on me - i should ask them (one of them is on this list - maybe she will chime in (you know who you are! ;-)) - but i think i can guess. i think it was *my* acceptance and support for their differences, even though i wasn't ready to jump on board. and my opennness to hearing of other ways of being, without feeling ridiculed or demeaned. i am not sure what that adds to the conversation, because i don't think it is something someone can DO for someone, it's more about how we receive??
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
"but i think i can guess. i think it was *my* acceptance and support for
their differences, even though i wasn't ready to jump on board. and my
opennness to hearing of other ways of being, without feeling ridiculed
or demeaned. i am not sure what that adds to the conversation, because i
don't think it is something someone can DO for someone, it's more about
how we receive??"
I really think it's a combination of both! I'll just say, though, that
Lyla has a special way of being sweet and clear, kind of in the way that
Anne Ohman does, if anyone knows what I'm talking about.
Online communication can get so mistranslated because we are reading
words and puting it through our own voices. If your own voice is
feeling defensive, you'll project that in our responses, sometimes
without even realizing it. I know, I've done it! And I've seen other
people do it clear as day when they can't see that they've done it!
their differences, even though i wasn't ready to jump on board. and my
opennness to hearing of other ways of being, without feeling ridiculed
or demeaned. i am not sure what that adds to the conversation, because i
don't think it is something someone can DO for someone, it's more about
how we receive??"
I really think it's a combination of both! I'll just say, though, that
Lyla has a special way of being sweet and clear, kind of in the way that
Anne Ohman does, if anyone knows what I'm talking about.
Online communication can get so mistranslated because we are reading
words and puting it through our own voices. If your own voice is
feeling defensive, you'll project that in our responses, sometimes
without even realizing it. I know, I've done it! And I've seen other
people do it clear as day when they can't see that they've done it!
Sandra Dodd
-=-i don't think it is something someone can DO for someone, it's
more about how we receive??-=-
I think that's true.
Because of the SCA (which I joined in 1977, and am fading out of, but
have been extremely active for most of my adult life), I've had
relationships with people who had the intent to learn all kinds of
things I knew, or that others around me knew, and I've seen dozens
(hundreds at a distance, and dozens I was involved directly in) of
instances of people drawing people in for year or for life, and of
distancing them or flatly running them off, and seeing what kinds of
dynamics and personalities helped or hurt in what ways.
It's not the same as casual friendships or natural relationships with
neighbors and relatives. It's not the same as teachers/students in
schools with schedules and tuition. It's not the same as bosses and
employees.
Nothing has been the same way in my life except the unschooling
discussions. Not the unschooling itself (though in some ways things
I know from the SCA have helped me be a good unschooler or helped me
see aspects as analogous to things I already knew), but the area
where people learn unschooling and help others "get it." There is
some modeling, and some coaching, and some "chastening" (saying "HEY;
cut it out" or "NOT helpful") when the behavior was in danger of
endangering the learning of others in the same place (chatroom,
message board, discussion list).
People have balked at me saying "shush" in various situation (and
they still do, and they still will) and people have said "You don't
own unschooling." Damned straight; I don't. But I own my
environment, when it's a topic I've started, or a list I own, or I'm
defending a point I'm making of which I am absolutely confidently
certain. And honestly, those are the only points I bother to defend.
It's one thing for someone to be unreceptive. It's another for
someone to be disruptive or abusive.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
more about how we receive??-=-
I think that's true.
Because of the SCA (which I joined in 1977, and am fading out of, but
have been extremely active for most of my adult life), I've had
relationships with people who had the intent to learn all kinds of
things I knew, or that others around me knew, and I've seen dozens
(hundreds at a distance, and dozens I was involved directly in) of
instances of people drawing people in for year or for life, and of
distancing them or flatly running them off, and seeing what kinds of
dynamics and personalities helped or hurt in what ways.
It's not the same as casual friendships or natural relationships with
neighbors and relatives. It's not the same as teachers/students in
schools with schedules and tuition. It's not the same as bosses and
employees.
Nothing has been the same way in my life except the unschooling
discussions. Not the unschooling itself (though in some ways things
I know from the SCA have helped me be a good unschooler or helped me
see aspects as analogous to things I already knew), but the area
where people learn unschooling and help others "get it." There is
some modeling, and some coaching, and some "chastening" (saying "HEY;
cut it out" or "NOT helpful") when the behavior was in danger of
endangering the learning of others in the same place (chatroom,
message board, discussion list).
People have balked at me saying "shush" in various situation (and
they still do, and they still will) and people have said "You don't
own unschooling." Damned straight; I don't. But I own my
environment, when it's a topic I've started, or a list I own, or I'm
defending a point I'm making of which I am absolutely confidently
certain. And honestly, those are the only points I bother to defend.
It's one thing for someone to be unreceptive. It's another for
someone to be disruptive or abusive.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
since my daughter was born 23 years ago, long, long before I became
(allegedly) a "radical unschooler". When my daughter was a baby and
toddler and was parented in ways that most people here would
recognise, other parents weren't interested at all in why she was such
a delight. As a new parent then, I certainly did think that was most
odd. Perhaps they attributed it to, "Just lucky I guess".
I recall one time in the early years when it was suggested that my
parenting style (as the full-time at-home parent) came from being a
man and not understanding what children are "really like". Oh how I
laughed. Not to her face of course - I do have *some* manners. And the
fabulous results that had come from how my wife and I parented our
daughter were right there in front of this stupid woman all the time
and all she noticed was that we were 'different' and by her definition
therefore not doing it right.
Ay caramba! as Bart Simpson would say.
And btw, after nearly six years of my son being out of school, I don't
know any unschoolers in real life. Not one. And that's alright with me
because I would do it this way for my son even if I was the only
person on the planet doing it this way.
Bob
>Yes, it can be hard to grasp. I've been a radical parent more or less
>
>
> > Yes, it is hard to find other radical unschoolers :)
>
> Yes it is! I never thought it would be so hard! To me, unschooling is
> so happy and cool, I mean, how could that not be contagious! I have
> spent so much of my life believing that people want to seek out
> happiness, and to find that it really isn't the case for so many, is so
> hard for me to grasp!
>
>
since my daughter was born 23 years ago, long, long before I became
(allegedly) a "radical unschooler". When my daughter was a baby and
toddler and was parented in ways that most people here would
recognise, other parents weren't interested at all in why she was such
a delight. As a new parent then, I certainly did think that was most
odd. Perhaps they attributed it to, "Just lucky I guess".
I recall one time in the early years when it was suggested that my
parenting style (as the full-time at-home parent) came from being a
man and not understanding what children are "really like". Oh how I
laughed. Not to her face of course - I do have *some* manners. And the
fabulous results that had come from how my wife and I parented our
daughter were right there in front of this stupid woman all the time
and all she noticed was that we were 'different' and by her definition
therefore not doing it right.
Ay caramba! as Bart Simpson would say.
And btw, after nearly six years of my son being out of school, I don't
know any unschoolers in real life. Not one. And that's alright with me
because I would do it this way for my son even if I was the only
person on the planet doing it this way.
Bob
Kim Zerbe
---<<Can you dislike spanking and like a spanker?>>---
I don't think so. That is something I am having trouble answering to myself!
And why I felt uncomfortable in my local group. I was there hoping to meet
other families in real life who are unschooling or even in the process of
deschooling and willing to explore and learn and see how other families
exist in the unschooling universe. Upon reading many of the posts there with
such hostility and defensiveness, I was moved into thinking I would not
attend any of the group activities as I would feel uncomfortable hanging out
with people I know (from their online confessions) don't allow their kids to
watch TV or eat sugar. I would surely see it in their actions too, like if
we ate lunch together and my child had fruit snacks and their kids wanted
some.
But not to worry, a local RU group has formed! I think I'll try to meet up
with those folks for a while. Not because I can't be around other people who
don't have the same ideals, I have plenty of friends like that and we have
grown to have a mutual respect for one another, but because I'm not in a
place where I want to open up and work on new relationships where I know
going in we have very different goals with our kids.
One note on non-unschooling friends: yes, it is getting harder and harder to
hang out with them now too. I do express my opinions in the context of a
subject that is being discussed (if someone asks, I will tell them what we
do in our home), but I do not bring up new topics I know most people don't
agree with. I'm not out there to rock the boat, but I do hope that my
presence provides an alternate viewpoint. Sometimes they point to me as the
"out there" example (still co-sleeping with a 4 yr old, who also only just
weaned after he turned 4) for other friends who are doing something similar
(co-sleeping, breastfeeding a 2 yr old) and wondering how long they will
continue. I say what works for us, admit that it may not work for every
family, and sometimes cite examples of studies that support my choices.
I figure with unschooling it will be more of the same.
Kim Z in Oregon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think so. That is something I am having trouble answering to myself!
And why I felt uncomfortable in my local group. I was there hoping to meet
other families in real life who are unschooling or even in the process of
deschooling and willing to explore and learn and see how other families
exist in the unschooling universe. Upon reading many of the posts there with
such hostility and defensiveness, I was moved into thinking I would not
attend any of the group activities as I would feel uncomfortable hanging out
with people I know (from their online confessions) don't allow their kids to
watch TV or eat sugar. I would surely see it in their actions too, like if
we ate lunch together and my child had fruit snacks and their kids wanted
some.
But not to worry, a local RU group has formed! I think I'll try to meet up
with those folks for a while. Not because I can't be around other people who
don't have the same ideals, I have plenty of friends like that and we have
grown to have a mutual respect for one another, but because I'm not in a
place where I want to open up and work on new relationships where I know
going in we have very different goals with our kids.
One note on non-unschooling friends: yes, it is getting harder and harder to
hang out with them now too. I do express my opinions in the context of a
subject that is being discussed (if someone asks, I will tell them what we
do in our home), but I do not bring up new topics I know most people don't
agree with. I'm not out there to rock the boat, but I do hope that my
presence provides an alternate viewpoint. Sometimes they point to me as the
"out there" example (still co-sleeping with a 4 yr old, who also only just
weaned after he turned 4) for other friends who are doing something similar
(co-sleeping, breastfeeding a 2 yr old) and wondering how long they will
continue. I say what works for us, admit that it may not work for every
family, and sometimes cite examples of studies that support my choices.
I figure with unschooling it will be more of the same.
Kim Z in Oregon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]