Ramping up unschooling, and trust issues
Sandra Dodd
This is a response to an e-mail by a list member who was worried that
this issue might be too rough for people new to unschooling. It
might be disturbing to some, but it might help that I've left out
most of the original e-mail, trying to leave the main points that can
apply to all kinds of situations, not just this particular family and
incident.
Before quoting my entire response, I'm going to bring the most
important part up top. The quoted sections were from the e-mail that
I received on the side.
-=- My inclination, also, is to ramp up our time together -- more
of it, more exciting plans. Escalate the thrill of things we do
together with her friends, too, if she wants. Offer more structure
(not top down kind, but plans), things to look forward to every day.
-=--
Good idea. Good idea with our without problems. All unschooling
should be ramped up.
========================================================================
=================================
-=-DD told me she shoplifted when she and her cousin went to the
mall. -=-
But she told you.
-=-In the context of radical unschooling principles and natural
consequences for actions . . . I'm working to shift my perspective
about this. What are the natural consequences of stealing if you
don't get caught? -=-
It makes you a thief. I shoplifted some when I was a teen. I still
feel guilty. I didn't get caught.
It doesn't necessarily make you a thief for life. I don't steal
ANYthing from anybody, and haven't since I shoplifted a George
Harrison 45 rpm record from Penney's at Winrock mall in Albuquerque
in 1970.
Here's the deal: Had I been caught, I might've been arrested, or
maybe just scared straight by the mall security guys.
In your own case, you could be kept from unschooling.
There have been many things my kids did that could have resulted in
exposure to the county child welfare people. I did NOT want to lose
our right to unschooling, and it's fragile. If a family is
homeschooling and things aren't going great, a judge can easily say
"kids must go to school."
-=- I do feel a sense of broken trust, -=-
She told you.
-=- I understand it's not that uncommon for young people to push this
boundary, mainstream parenting would probably say to march her into
the store and pay for what she stole, apologize to the manager . . .
sheesh. I'm not going to do that, it terms of dd and my
relationship, that approach is humiliating and punitive.-=-
There are ways short of "march her into the store" that are not
punitive, but can be healing and reparative. You could take the
things back yourself, or you could go and offer to pay for them and
then take it out of her allowance, or get her to wash the car or
something "to earn money."
-=-But I don't really want to be around someone who steals. Where as
unschooling parents do our personal values end and our kids' actions
begin? That may not be the right question. I'm coming into new
challenges around my own boundaries as a grown up in this unschooling
home.-=-
You could tell her that calmly, though, that you don't want to be
around thieves, and she probably doesn't want to *be" a thief.
-=-Some part of me wants to "punish" her. -=-
Then she'll stop telling you what she does. She shared this with you
and gave you a wonderful opportunity. A disturbing opportunity, but
a good one.
-=-DD told me she shoplifted when she and her cousin went to the
mall.-=-
Have you spoken with the cousin? Depending on personalities and
relationships, that could be good or bad. It might make the cousin
mad at your daughter. That might be okay, if it would keep them from
going out shoplifting more. The cousin might encourage more
sneakiness. But if it were me and any of my kids' actual cousins, I
would stay directly to the cousin that it needs to stop, that if
they're going to be breaking laws, it needs NOT to involve my kids,
period.
-=- My inclination, also, is to ramp up our time together -- more
of it, more exciting plans. Escalate the thrill of things we do
together with her friends, too, if she wants. Offer more structure
(not top down kind, but plans), things to look forward to every day.
-=--
Good idea. Good idea with our without problems. All unschooling
should be ramped up.
-=- If you have time to offer any thoughts, I'd be grateful -- if
it's appropriate for the forum I'll post it there.-=-
I'll put my response on the list, and you can just watch the other
comments or you can comment further yourself (with or without
admitting the original situation was yours--you can stay totally
anonymous if you want.
Sandra
this issue might be too rough for people new to unschooling. It
might be disturbing to some, but it might help that I've left out
most of the original e-mail, trying to leave the main points that can
apply to all kinds of situations, not just this particular family and
incident.
Before quoting my entire response, I'm going to bring the most
important part up top. The quoted sections were from the e-mail that
I received on the side.
-=- My inclination, also, is to ramp up our time together -- more
of it, more exciting plans. Escalate the thrill of things we do
together with her friends, too, if she wants. Offer more structure
(not top down kind, but plans), things to look forward to every day.
-=--
Good idea. Good idea with our without problems. All unschooling
should be ramped up.
========================================================================
=================================
-=-DD told me she shoplifted when she and her cousin went to the
mall. -=-
But she told you.
-=-In the context of radical unschooling principles and natural
consequences for actions . . . I'm working to shift my perspective
about this. What are the natural consequences of stealing if you
don't get caught? -=-
It makes you a thief. I shoplifted some when I was a teen. I still
feel guilty. I didn't get caught.
It doesn't necessarily make you a thief for life. I don't steal
ANYthing from anybody, and haven't since I shoplifted a George
Harrison 45 rpm record from Penney's at Winrock mall in Albuquerque
in 1970.
Here's the deal: Had I been caught, I might've been arrested, or
maybe just scared straight by the mall security guys.
In your own case, you could be kept from unschooling.
There have been many things my kids did that could have resulted in
exposure to the county child welfare people. I did NOT want to lose
our right to unschooling, and it's fragile. If a family is
homeschooling and things aren't going great, a judge can easily say
"kids must go to school."
-=- I do feel a sense of broken trust, -=-
She told you.
-=- I understand it's not that uncommon for young people to push this
boundary, mainstream parenting would probably say to march her into
the store and pay for what she stole, apologize to the manager . . .
sheesh. I'm not going to do that, it terms of dd and my
relationship, that approach is humiliating and punitive.-=-
There are ways short of "march her into the store" that are not
punitive, but can be healing and reparative. You could take the
things back yourself, or you could go and offer to pay for them and
then take it out of her allowance, or get her to wash the car or
something "to earn money."
-=-But I don't really want to be around someone who steals. Where as
unschooling parents do our personal values end and our kids' actions
begin? That may not be the right question. I'm coming into new
challenges around my own boundaries as a grown up in this unschooling
home.-=-
You could tell her that calmly, though, that you don't want to be
around thieves, and she probably doesn't want to *be" a thief.
-=-Some part of me wants to "punish" her. -=-
Then she'll stop telling you what she does. She shared this with you
and gave you a wonderful opportunity. A disturbing opportunity, but
a good one.
-=-DD told me she shoplifted when she and her cousin went to the
mall.-=-
Have you spoken with the cousin? Depending on personalities and
relationships, that could be good or bad. It might make the cousin
mad at your daughter. That might be okay, if it would keep them from
going out shoplifting more. The cousin might encourage more
sneakiness. But if it were me and any of my kids' actual cousins, I
would stay directly to the cousin that it needs to stop, that if
they're going to be breaking laws, it needs NOT to involve my kids,
period.
-=- My inclination, also, is to ramp up our time together -- more
of it, more exciting plans. Escalate the thrill of things we do
together with her friends, too, if she wants. Offer more structure
(not top down kind, but plans), things to look forward to every day.
-=--
Good idea. Good idea with our without problems. All unschooling
should be ramped up.
-=- If you have time to offer any thoughts, I'd be grateful -- if
it's appropriate for the forum I'll post it there.-=-
I'll put my response on the list, and you can just watch the other
comments or you can comment further yourself (with or without
admitting the original situation was yours--you can stay totally
anonymous if you want.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I have a response to some of those questions. Because the mom had
been willing to send it to the list in the first place, I'm sure she
won't mind me sharing these, still anonymously. This time the quotes
are me.
========================================================================
=============================
She shared this with you and gave you a wonderful opportunity. A
disturbing opportunity, but a good one.
Good point. That's how it's evolving, really, as an opportunity.
It's made me consider in my own mind, to myself, what constitutes
"stealing". late taxes, delinquent bill paying, hmmm. alot of food
for thought/not directly related to shoplifting, but connected.
-=-DD told me she shoplifted when she and her cousin went to the
mall.-=-
Have you spoken with the cousin?
I've had no contact with the cousin since [she went home]. I'm
considering emailing her along the lines of what you suggested. If
she's going to choose to engage in illegal activities, please do it
on her own.
-- but she told you.--
Yes. I'm just beginning to appreciate the weight of this. Now that
I'm not all full of my own reactivity and fear.
-- doing something healing and reparative --
beautiful way to think about taking responsibility for an action that
you don't feel that good about.
thank you
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
been willing to send it to the list in the first place, I'm sure she
won't mind me sharing these, still anonymously. This time the quotes
are me.
========================================================================
=============================
She shared this with you and gave you a wonderful opportunity. A
disturbing opportunity, but a good one.
Good point. That's how it's evolving, really, as an opportunity.
It's made me consider in my own mind, to myself, what constitutes
"stealing". late taxes, delinquent bill paying, hmmm. alot of food
for thought/not directly related to shoplifting, but connected.
-=-DD told me she shoplifted when she and her cousin went to the
mall.-=-
Have you spoken with the cousin?
I've had no contact with the cousin since [she went home]. I'm
considering emailing her along the lines of what you suggested. If
she's going to choose to engage in illegal activities, please do it
on her own.
-- but she told you.--
Yes. I'm just beginning to appreciate the weight of this. Now that
I'm not all full of my own reactivity and fear.
-- doing something healing and reparative --
beautiful way to think about taking responsibility for an action that
you don't feel that good about.
thank you
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
g-liberatedlearning
A couple of years go, my then 9 yo Zoe, made some smart alek comment
under her breath in a dance class directed towards a dance teacher
she didn't know well. When we were on our way home from dance she
told me about it and was feeling very regretful even though there'd
been no response from the teacher. I suggested an apology might be in
order and that Zoe would probably feel some better afterwards, so she
agreed and asked me to turn the car around and head back so she could
apologize. The next class hadn't started yet and she was able to
catch her teacher outside the dance studio and apologize. I don't
know if the teacher noticed the smart alek comment when dd said it,
but she was very warm and forgiving when dd apologized. The rest of
the way home, Zoe felt relieved.
Doing what we can to fix our own mistakes is some of the best healing
that exists.
Radically Unschooling in Iowa
The Unzone
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
under her breath in a dance class directed towards a dance teacher
she didn't know well. When we were on our way home from dance she
told me about it and was feeling very regretful even though there'd
been no response from the teacher. I suggested an apology might be in
order and that Zoe would probably feel some better afterwards, so she
agreed and asked me to turn the car around and head back so she could
apologize. The next class hadn't started yet and she was able to
catch her teacher outside the dance studio and apologize. I don't
know if the teacher noticed the smart alek comment when dd said it,
but she was very warm and forgiving when dd apologized. The rest of
the way home, Zoe felt relieved.
Doing what we can to fix our own mistakes is some of the best healing
that exists.
> -- doing something healing and reparative --Chris
>
> beautiful way to think about taking responsibility for an action that
> you don't feel that good about.
Radically Unschooling in Iowa
The Unzone
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/2008 12:18:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Sandra@... writes:
<<<You could tell her that calmly, though, that you don't want to be
around thieves, and she probably doesn't want to *be" a thief.>>>
There's the possibility that telling her that could have the daughter stop
telling the mom what she does. Some sort of "fear of rejection" kind of thing?
I'm not sure if that kind of thought comes from a traditionally-parented
person or if it is more of a personality thing.
Peace,
De
**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra@... writes:
<<<You could tell her that calmly, though, that you don't want to be
around thieves, and she probably doesn't want to *be" a thief.>>>
There's the possibility that telling her that could have the daughter stop
telling the mom what she does. Some sort of "fear of rejection" kind of thing?
I'm not sure if that kind of thought comes from a traditionally-parented
person or if it is more of a personality thing.
Peace,
De
**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com
today!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp
%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]