Jennifer Ironstone

Hello Unschooling friends. I joined this group nearly a year and a
half ago. I posted a bit in the beginning but haven't really been
around much other than a bit of searching for specific info here and
there, since.

I am wondering if those of you with teenagers and adult children could
share your thoughts on the following.


My daughter, almost 14, has been going to sleep between 3 and 5 AM
consistently for months, now. She sleeps until between 12 and 3 on
average, then wakes up and has just enough time to get dressed and eat
before going to her many classes, activities, sleepovers, etc. This
situation concerns me for several reasons. She can't seem to go to
sleep earlier than this without serious challenges biologically, nor
is she very cooperative with my requests for her to try.

One of the things I need is for her to contribute to the family jobs
before going to her activities every day in order for me to provide
the level of service that she wants from me (I am a single parent to
her and her brother, who is 8, and am limited in what I can offer plus
she happens to have LOTS of interests, outside commitments and
activities). She is very good at getting jobs done once she sets her
mind to it but seems confused about how it all works logistically,
even though it's been discussed ad nauseam.

For example, she constantly tries to re-negotiate her way out of doing
the jobs that she's previously agreed to. It's at the point where I
have begun telling her that it's either re-negotiating or her daily
activities that I can participate in because I do not have the time
and physical/mental energy for both. Also, she often does a poor job
at the chores, even though I've seen her do way better work many
times, until I approach her with what ends up turning into constant
little micro-managing requests that negate the ability for her to
contribute in the first place if I am needed to do so much guiding (it
gets to where we need to stop the work she's doing and re-define what
`doing the dishes' means for the thousandth, for example).

She has been honest and said that she wishes she could just have all
the activities and interests AND my high level of service to her
without having to contribute anything in the way of family jobs in
exchange. She seems not to want to let go of that wish and it appears
to be a driving force in our daily exchanges. Also, she has become
increasingly hostile toward me when I remind her of her agreements and
commitments to the job she's previously agreed to for the day – the
one that ensures that she can be driven to her activity/activities for
*that day* in exchange for. So our household has become very
unpredictable and volatile due to her constant deal-breaking and
pattern of hostility. This has become increasingly unrealistic and
stressful for her brother and for me.

The sleep issue is also affected by her tendency toward opposition.
For example, when I ask her to TRY to go to sleep earlier than 3-5AM,
she agrees to get into the bed at, say, 11 or 12 with a book (she's
all too quick to make verbal agreements, that is the pattern, but then
she breaks them constantly). Then, I often come out at 2 or 3 AM and
she tells me that she tried to go to sleep earlier but it didn't
work, so there she is on the computer in her room or watching TV,
again. Then, the next day, we're back at the same place of her
needing to sleep until very close to the time to leave and me feeling
very stressed about her help toward the family jobs because, not only
is she breaking her commitment to my need for her to do her share of
housework a good deal of time before it's time to go to her activity,
but shortly after she wakes up and for a while afterward is when she
becomes very unkind in her language and behavior, uncooperative and
deal-breaking, etc.

Lately, I've had to cancel my participation in several of her classes
and activities because things have escalated beyond what I can
personally handle. Again, there are no other adults committed to
providing for her, so it is up to her and I to create our own reality,
here. There is also my son that I am equally committed to, but it
always seems that Dd's behavior and interests dominate my time and
energy.

This is a big part of why I have come to the place of canceling my
offers of contribution toward her interests when she breaks her word
about our agreements. Kindness is my very first priority as a person
and as a parent and I've learned not to try to push myself past my own
limits so as to continue providing opportunities to my daughter
because I become unkind to myself, to her, and even to my son by way
of his passive involvement when I don't honor my limits and abilities.
I am also wanting to honor her limits and it appears that her behavior
is more honest about them than her words are, so that is also my
intention in canceling some activities).

I've already told her that I am indefinitely unwilling to participate
in any interests of hers that begin before 1 or 2 in the afternoon
because of the patterns she has. I need for at least *me* to be clear
about reality, here.


If anyone has some feedback or experience to share, I would be so
grateful.

Thank you in advance.

Nancy Wooton

On Oct 13, 2008, at 5:11 AM, Jennifer Ironstone wrote:

> Hello Unschooling friends. I joined this group nearly a year and a
> half ago. I posted a bit in the beginning but haven't really been
> around much other than a bit of searching for specific info here and
> there, since.
>
> I am wondering if those of you with teenagers and adult children could
> share your thoughts on the following.
>
>
> My daughter, almost 14, has been going to sleep between 3 and 5 AM
> consistently for months, now. She sleeps until between 12 and 3 on
> average,

That's normal in my family. Both my now 21 y.o. dd and 18 y.o. ds are
still in bed, but they'll be up in time to drop Alex at his community
college class (he starts at 12:30) and then on to the stables.
They've been night owls since age 12 or so.

> then wakes up and has just enough time to get dressed and eat
> before going to her many classes, activities, sleepovers, etc. This
> situation concerns me for several reasons. She can't seem to go to
> sleep earlier than this without serious challenges biologically,

Exactly.

> nor
> is she very cooperative with my requests for her to try.

Have you ever tried to keep a hamster awake in the daytime? Number
one reason why kids get bitten <g>

>
>
> One of the things I need is for her to contribute to the family jobs
> before going to her activities every day in order for me to provide
> the level of service that she wants from me (I am a single parent to
> her and her brother, who is 8, and am limited in what I can offer plus
> she happens to have LOTS of interests, outside commitments and
> activities). She is very good at getting jobs done once she sets her
> mind to it but seems confused about how it all works logistically,
> even though it's been discussed ad nauseam.
>
> For example, she constantly tries to re-negotiate her way out of doing
> the jobs that she's previously agreed to. It's at the point where I
> have begun telling her that it's either re-negotiating or her daily
> activities that I can participate in because I do not have the time
> and physical/mental energy for both. Also, she often does a poor job
> at the chores, even though I've seen her do way better work many
> times, until I approach her with what ends up turning into constant
> little micro-managing requests that negate the ability for her to
> contribute in the first place if I am needed to do so much guiding (it
> gets to where we need to stop the work she's doing and re-define what
> `doing the dishes' means for the thousandth, for example).

Two things:

My dd does the dishes, but in the middle of the night, when she's
awake. Is there some reason the chores have to be done in the
morning? I mean, vacuuming while people are sleeping would be rude,
and I myself don't do it in the morning while my kids are asleep, but
hand-washing dishes isn't noisy.

Secondly, does she know what you expect -- I mean, does she really?
You may think she does, but if she hasn't been taught to do it the way
you expect, you can't hold her to your standard.

It sounds like she's getting you back by doing a poor job (passive
aggression, maybe). Try accepting the way she finds works best for
her, even if its not exactly how you would do it.

>
>
> She has been honest and said that she wishes she could just have all
> the activities and interests AND my high level of service to her
> without having to contribute anything in the way of family jobs in
> exchange. She seems not to want to let go of that wish and it appears
> to be a driving force in our daily exchanges. Also, she has become
> increasingly hostile toward me when I remind her of her agreements and
> commitments to the job she's previously agreed to for the day – the
> one that ensures that she can be driven to her activity/activities for
> *that day* in exchange for. So our household has become very
> unpredictable and volatile due to her constant deal-breaking and
> pattern of hostility. This has become increasingly unrealistic and
> stressful for her brother and for me.

Why don't you knock it off, then? You're the one in control, not her
-- except, of course, if she doesn't do what you want. You're giving
her that power, but it's her only power. How about letting go of the
jobs, doing them yourself, lowering your standards, etc.? Find a way
to take her out of the equation. It takes two to fight.

>
> The sleep issue is also affected by her tendency toward opposition.
> For example, when I ask her to TRY to go to sleep earlier than 3-5AM,
> she agrees to get into the bed at, say, 11 or 12 with a book (she's
> all too quick to make verbal agreements, that is the pattern, but then
> she breaks them constantly). Then, I often come out at 2 or 3 AM and
> she tells me that she tried to go to sleep earlier but it didn't
> work, so there she is on the computer in her room or watching TV,
> again. Then, the next day, we're back at the same place of her
> needing to sleep until very close to the time to leave and me feeling
> very stressed about her help toward the family jobs because, not only
> is she breaking her commitment to my need for her to do her share of
> housework a good deal of time before it's time to go to her activity,
> but shortly after she wakes up and for a while afterward is when she
> becomes very unkind in her language and behavior, uncooperative and
> deal-breaking, etc.

If she goes to sleep at 3 to 5 a.m., and, like all teens, needs 10 to
12 hours of sleep every day, she's not going to wake up rested until 3
to 5 p.m. She wakes up to a mom angry at her for *sleeping,* stressed
about some stupid household chore, calling her a "Deal breaker," etc.
I'd be unkind, too. I'd avoid contact with that mom, and I'd be
cranky and uncooperative, too.

Now, if my mom *honored* my sleep pattern, recognized that I truly
*cannot fall asleep* sooner than 3 a.m., cannot wake without 10 to 12
hours' sleep, was kind enough to arrange her day to accommodate my
needs, I might feel more kind and cooperative. I might suggest doing
the chores after mom and brother go to bed, so mom wakes to a clean
kitchen, for instance (I call my dd a "house elf," after Harry
Potter). And I always say "thank you." When I drive my son to a
friend's house, he alway says "thanks mom" when he gets out.

>
>
> Lately, I've had to cancel my participation in several of her classes
> and activities because things have escalated beyond what I can
> personally handle.

What do you have to do in her activities, beyond providing
transportation and perhaps fees? Would you have no time and energy to
do these things if you did all the housework your daughter is failing
to do? Perhaps you both need to cut back.

> Again, there are no other adults committed to
> providing for her, so it is up to her and I to create our own reality,
> here.

She might be doing more than she truly wants or needs to do; mine each
had one activity at a time. We didn't try to do lots of classes or
sports.

> There is also my son that I am equally committed to, but it
> always seems that Dd's behavior and interests dominate my time and
> energy.
>
> This is a big part of why I have come to the place of canceling my
> offers of contribution toward her interests when she breaks her word
> about our agreements.

Does she have a real choice in these agreements? If you can cancel,
can she?

In my home, I've never, ever required chores. If I ask one of my kids
to help or to do something, they do it. If they ask for my help, like
driving somewhere, I do it. No negotiations, though a "Can I do it a
little later?" is always a possibility; I try to not ask while
someone's in the middle of a video game, etc. Now, my *husband,* on
the other hand, does want to see them help in exchange for their
allowance ($20 a week each, which they use for their own pets, lunches
out, and games tournament entry fees). There are a few things we
parents don't usually do anymore, like scooping the yard. Other
things, like folding laundry, are done by anyone in the room at the
time.

> Kindness is my very first priority as a person
> and as a parent and I've learned not to try to push myself past my own
> limits so as to continue providing opportunities to my daughter
> because I become unkind to myself, to her, and even to my son by way
> of his passive involvement when I don't honor my limits and abilities.
> I am also wanting to honor her limits and it appears that her behavior
> is more honest about them than her words are, so that is also my
> intention in canceling some activities).
>
> I've already told her that I am indefinitely unwilling to participate
> in any interests of hers that begin before 1 or 2 in the afternoon
> because of the patterns she has. I need for at least *me* to be clear
> about reality, here.

If she needs to sleep, *she* shouldn't be making plans that early. If
the plans are truly important to *her,* she can be responsible for
getting there. Take yourself out of the equation. If it's something
your son wants to do, leave your 14 y.o. daughter home to sleep.

>
>
>
> If anyone has some feedback or experience to share, I would be so
> grateful.
>
> Thank you in advance.

Hope that helps,
Nancy

Jenny C

> My daughter, almost 14, has been going to sleep between 3 and 5 AM
> consistently for months, now. She sleeps until between 12 and 3 on
> average, then wakes up and has just enough time to get dressed and eat
> before going to her many classes, activities, sleepovers, etc. This
> situation concerns me for several reasons. She can't seem to go to
> sleep earlier than this without serious challenges biologically, nor
> is she very cooperative with my requests for her to try.

This has been a consistent pattern for my 14 yr old too! However, I
don't see this as a problem. I think teens have a different biological
clock than children and adults. The house is quiet and her time is
uninterupted by her younger sibling. She can talk to people from
different parts of the world because of the time difference, or she can
do other things on her computer without IM interuptions.

I don't schedule anything involving her before noon, ever! If I do,
it's exceptional and she makes the effort to get to bed earlier and get
up earlier because she wants to do the activity. When she wakes up, I
try to ensure that she has at least an hour to get herself ready in a
relaxed way. I also don't force her to attend any of her activities, or
our activities.


>
> One of the things I need is for her to contribute to the family jobs
> before going to her activities every day in order for me to provide
> the level of service that she wants from me (I am a single parent to
> her and her brother, who is 8, and am limited in what I can offer plus
> she happens to have LOTS of interests, outside commitments and
> activities).

This would be overwhelming for my daughter! She wouldn't even begin to
know how to work under those conditions. She helps out a lot though,
especially if I ask her kindly and give her the option of saying "no".
She routinely cleans the bathroom that she uses without my asking. It's
messy most of the time, but she will tidy it if I ask her, if there is a
guest coming over or something of that nature since it would be the
bathroom used by a guest.

She doesn't clean her room, nor do I ask her to. She only sometimes
does the dishes, but she will pick up stray dishes if she sees me doing
them. Mostly though, I clean up after her because she clearly isn't
ready for that task of keeping a household in working order. In common
areas, she really does try to keep her mess contained to her area and is
perfectly okay with a quick tidy up.

Also, she often does a poor job
> at the chores, even though I've seen her do way better work many
> times, until I approach her with what ends up turning into constant
> little micro-managing requests that negate the ability for her to
> contribute in the first place if I am needed to do so much guiding (it
> gets to where we need to stop the work she's doing and re-define what
> `doing the dishes' means for the thousandth, for example).

This is the biggest clue that you should stop what you are doing and
either stop expecting her to help or accept what she gives to you
without critique. If she can't do the dishes alone, do them with her,
you wash, she dries and puts away. Really it will go super fast and you
won't have to worry about wether or not they are clean. Put her
favorite music on and do it at her pace.


So our household has become very
> unpredictable and volatile due to her constant deal-breaking and
> pattern of hostility. This has become increasingly unrealistic and
> stressful for her brother and for me.
>

Take the pressure off. Hire someone to come in and clean up major stuff
every other week, so that you have a quick tidy up every other week
before the cleaning person gets there. All of you can work on each room
of the house together and pick up so that the cleaning person can clean
the floors and bathrooms or whatever it is that you feel absolutely is
soo super necessary for feeling like your house is clean. Seriously, it
would take about an hour or 2 once every other week or once a week if
you so choose that option. That is not much time at all! If you can
afford a lot of extra activities for your kids, you can afford
housecleaning service, they are really not very expensive.


Just as an example, I have a family of 4 and I do dishes once a day and
it takes literally about half and hour, sometimes an hour if it's really
messy. That's such a small chunk of time, and it can be pleasant listen
to music and contemplate life time.

> The sleep issue is also affected by her tendency toward opposition.
> For example, when I ask her to TRY to go to sleep earlier than 3-5AM,
> she agrees to get into the bed at, say, 11 or 12 with a book (she's
> all too quick to make verbal agreements, that is the pattern, but then
> she breaks them constantly).

She's trying to avoid you and get you off her back. Unless that is your
goal with your relationship, stop trying to get her to do something she
clearly doesn't want to or can't do!

Then, the next day, we're back at the same place of her
> needing to sleep until very close to the time to leave and me feeling
> very stressed about her help toward the family jobs because, not only
> is she breaking her commitment to my need for her to do her share of
> housework a good deal of time before it's time to go to her activity,
> but shortly after she wakes up and for a while afterward is when she
> becomes very unkind in her language and behavior, uncooperative and
> deal-breaking, etc.

Back to the housework. I'm actually trying to imagine what kind of
household chores you have since they seem to take precendence over all
other things at your house other than making it to activities and
getting enough sleep. I absolutely don't clean house everyday! I can't
imagine what kind of chores one would have to do EVERY day that is
taking up so much of life for your family! The only things I do every
day are dishes, kitty litter boxes, and feeding pets and people, that's
it! Other things happen here and there, laundry, yard work, clean up,
floor cleaning, but not every day.

Quit making her life miserable and about meeting your expectations!


>
> Lately, I've had to cancel my participation in several of her classes
> and activities because things have escalated beyond what I can
> personally handle.

So, when you cancel your participation, do you go home and do your
daughter's chores for her?

> This is a big part of why I have come to the place of canceling my
> offers of contribution toward her interests when she breaks her word
> about our agreements. Kindness is my very first priority as a person
> and as a parent

However, everything you've described is very very unkind to your
daughter, and yourself and you other child.

> I've already told her that I am indefinitely unwilling to participate
> in any interests of hers that begin before 1 or 2 in the afternoon
> because of the patterns she has. I need for at least *me* to be clear
> about reality, here.

There is nothing wrong with you deciding that your child needs enough
sleep and being realistic about starting time of activities. Before 1
or 2 can be time well spent with your younger child or for you to get
chores done and other work necessary for living. After 1 or 2 can be
daughter time, relaxed and free from your expectations of what she
should be doing. Go and take her to her activities and do all that fun
stuff with her. Create an atmosphere of fun and enjoyment with her
without all that other stuff getting in the way.

If I know we have to get going sooner than my daughter would like, I'll
go in and wake her up with a nice warm cup of coffee and be kind and
gentle with her to get her going. I WANT her to be happy and relaxed,
so I create whatever atmosphere will help that to happen!

Sandra Dodd

-=-Lately, I've had to cancel my participation in several of her classes
and activities because things have escalated beyond what I can
personally handle. -=-

Could you clarify that, please?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

-----------------snip-------------------

I am wondering if those of you with teenagers and adult children could
share your thoughts on the following.
-----------------snip-------------------

I don't have teenagers or adult children. My oldest child is 11. I, however, am an adult child and one who is applying the principles of unschooling throughout her life. As a suggestion, you might do well to open the question to all and not just to limit your respondents to those in a similar situation.

-----------------snip------------------
My daughter, almost 14, has been going to sleep between 3 and 5 AM
consistently for months, now. She sleeps until between 12 and 3 on
average, then wakes up and has just enough time to get dressed and eat
before going to her many classes, activities, sleepovers, etc. This
situation concerns me for several reasons. She can't seem to go to
sleep earlier than this without serious challenges biologically, nor
is she very cooperative with my requests for her to try.
-----------------snip-----------------

From the time I was 2 until I was in my 30's I stayed up late and slept late. It got more extreme in my early teens and stayed that way until I had Simon and Linnaea. And still, if things are stressful I will tend to stay up later in response. As guilty as I felt for being unable to sleep well, I can remember lying in bed at night, tossing and turning, listening to relaxation tapes, having mom or dad tell me to turn my light off, all of that, I never fell asleep easily before about 3 am. Much like your daughter tells you:

"For example, when I ask her to TRY to go to sleep earlier than 3-5AM,
she agrees to get into the bed at, say, 11 or 12 with a book (she's
all too quick to make verbal agreements, that is the pattern, but then
she breaks them constantly). Then, I often come out at 2 or 3 AM and
she tells me that she tried to go to sleep earlier but it didn't
work, so there she is on the computer in her room or watching TV,
again. "

I could not go to sleep unless I was exhausted. I still can't. If I don't fall asleep right away I won't fall asleep without entertainment. I will lie in bed for hours and hours tossing and turning and getting more and more frustrated until the wee hours of the morning. No matter how tired I am. If, instead, I do something, like read a book or play on my ds or get up and watch television or spend time on the computer, I can fall asleep much more easily. Some nights I will fall asleep reading a book and then wake up enough to turn off the light and be woken too much in the process and the whole thing will start all over again. She isn't lying to you, she isn't yanking your chain, she is describing something that happens to me and has happened to me for much of my life.

You wrote: "The sleep issue is also affected by her tendency toward opposition." A "tendency toward opposition" only comes up when there are requests that are made of someone that they feel oppositional about. I would argue, most strenously, that your perspective that she is staying up late to oppose you is wrong. Maybe not completely, maybe she is rebelling against you. But being a night owl is not unusual. And it isn't willful. I tried for years to go to sleep at a more "normal" hour, I used to take sleeping pills and melatonin as well as relaxation tapes. It didn't work, my clock just wasn't set for early to bed early to rise.

-----------------snip------------------
One of the things I need is for her to contribute to the family jobs
before going to her activities every day in order for me to provide
the level of service that she wants from me
-----------------snip------------------

What are the family jobs that you require from her? How are they negatively impacting your life if they aren't done. Our house is not the neatest of places much of the time. Dishes usually are done, vacuuming is occasionally done, sweeping and mopping rarely, I do laundry, but often it isn't put away. None of that really negatively impacts my life unless I'm having allergy moments. Usually, though, cleaning makes my allergies worse as I stir all the stuff up in the process. But maybe your family jobs are something different then household chores?

Speaking of family jobs, Simon and Linnaea could care less how clean the house is. Maybe there is a standard they have for cleanliness, but I haven't gotten too far gone for them. The standard of cleanliness that I tend to maintain is my own. It isn't a "family" job, it's a personal requirement. There are some things that David maintains to a level that is far beyond my awareness. He doesn't think about waxing the car as a family job, even though Linnaea and Simon may join in, it's something he wants to do because he likes the car to be protected from the elements. He doesn't hound me to clean the car or to change the oil or to check the brake pads. Those are things that are important to his sense of wellbeing, not mine. When we were dating he was appalled by the state of my car. I was fine with it. He didn't want me to drive it and would swap it for his fairly new truck. His standards are really different than mine.

-----------------snip------------------
(I am a single parent to
her and her brother, who is 8, and am limited in what I can offer plus
she happens to have LOTS of interests, outside commitments and
activities).
-----------------snip------------------

It is fantastic that her day is full of things to do and ways to explore the world. I imagine that it can feel overwhelming and disconnecting for you to have her be asleep or out all the time. Still, how fantastic that she is so engaged with so many things. Try and think about all the things that she is committed to as things that bring her joy. Think about helping her to achieve those things as ways of helping her to be happier, more fulfilled, more switched on. It will feel much nicer when you drive her to or pick her up from something or the other and you think about how fantastic it is that you get to help make this thing happen and you get that time between one thing and another with her. It is good to look at the bright side. And to find joy in giving to your children.

-----------------snip------------------
She is very good at getting jobs done once she sets her
mind to it but seems confused about how it all works logistically,
even though it's been discussed ad nauseam.
-----------------snip------------------

I turn off of things that are discussed ad nauseum. I don't hear when it moves to more than one repetition. My face goes blank and I start thinking about other things or getting really resentful of the speaker. It often feels patronising and rude. Even if I'm being rude in response.

Why are the jobs difficult to comprehend? Is there a standard that you are asking her to achieve? Beth Fuller tells a story of when she used to be quite obsessed with being the perfect homemaker. Her husband Kevin wanted to give her a gift so he vacuumed the whole house, all of it, every room, for her. She smiled and thanked him and started doing it all again because he hadn't made straight lines with the vacuum cleaner. Are you expecting there to be ruler straight lines in your carpet? Are you asking her to do for you like she was a cleaning service and you need the plates washed and dried and put away in such and such way? I may just not be clear on what the "family jobs" are that you need to have done.

Linnaea wants the computer. And a chocolate shake. Sorry I couldn't write more.

Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-even though it's been discussed ad nauseam.
-----------------snip------------------

-=-I turn off of things that are discussed ad nauseum. -=-



Everyone does. That's why they call it "ad naseum." You keep on
until the other person is sick of it.

I think it helps for a mom to write out what she's frustrated about
and let us point at what she wrote. It will help her when she stops
being cranky and embarrassed about it, and it will help others who
read here to see how clearly someone's errors show when they pour it
all out at once this way.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Hello Unschooling friends. I joined this group nearly a year and a
half ago. I posted a bit in the beginning but haven't really been
around much other than a bit of searching for specific info here and
there, since. -=-



Having read your original post twice, and all the responses, my
first comment is that had you read this list for the past year and a
half, you wouldn't have any of the problems you've reported to us.
We can help, but I maybe you should switch to getting the list by e-
mail. I suspect you intended to just read the responses to this one
question on the list. By doing that, though, you won't have a feel
for which of the posters are who and how, and that can make a
difference in how you see their responses.

Very often, the question someone asks isn't leading to the answer
they need. They're not sure what they need. That's why coming here
occasionally for specific info didn't net you the full set of
knowledge that would have helped you move smoothly from having a
twelve year old girl to having a really happy fourteen year old whose
company you were enjoying.

It's not too late to make changes, but that year 13 is gone. Don't
let fourteen and fifteen pass by the same way.

By the time I got to this part: "So our household has become very
unpredictable and volatile" it didn't seem at ALL "unpredictable" to
me. It seemed inevitable.

-=-So our household has become very unpredictable and volatile due to
her constant deal-breaking and pattern of hostility.-=-

How might your daughter describe the situation? (It doesn't matter
to us, but you might want to consider it, if you can.)

-=-The sleep issue is also affected by her tendency toward
opposition. -=-

Was she born with a "tendency toward opposition"? Or is she
responding rationally to too much control?

-=-She has been honest and said that she wishes she could just have
all the activities and interests AND my high level of service to her -=-

What you define as your "high level of service to her" might be what
others here would consider being a good mom. It's your job to make
her life easier. It sounds like you're making her life hard in some
ways, and she's trying both verbally and through action to
communicate with you and you're ignoring the messages in favor of
judging her oppositional, volatile...

I think it would help immensely if you change your policy on chores.
The first result will be she won't want to do anything, but that's
because you didn't start sooner. It will get worse unless you do
something to make it better.

http://sandradodd.com/chores

and there's more at

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

My kids all have slept when they wanted to. Each night we talk about
who needs to be up when, and whether they have an alarm set or want
to be woken up. We always have done that. It's friendly. We keep
the house quiet until noon if possible, and even after if people are
sleeping and there's no pressing need to use a vacuum or blender. If
everyone's awake before noon, the noise can commence.

http://sandradodd.com/sleeping

The boys had jobs at 14 and 15, respectively. They're now 19 and
22. Both of them have had early morning jobs (6:30 five days a week,
for Marty, for over a year), and both have had late-night jobs.
They've had no problems.

Holly is more variable in her sleep schedule. She's nearly 17 and
has just come out of a time of sleeping ten hours or every night.
She needs less sleep now than she did. She just filled in a long
online application for Toys R Us, applying to work stocking shelves
for Christmas. She checked all possible shifts, late and early, any
day of the week. I don't know if she'll get the job, but she wasn't
limiting herself to only afternoons. If she needs to get up, she
will. Nowadays, when she wants to get up, she does.

Anyone who's looking forward to what will happen when they wake up
will be glad to wake up.

Sandra












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sheryl Lentine

Hello,

I was hoping for some advice from some of you all experienced USers. I have been unschooling for several years now, and am FULLY convinced that I am doing the right thing. Trouble is, I have a mother that I am very close to. She lives next door to us, employs my husband, etc. Our lives are very much intertwined. Each year, with her encouragement, I buy a curriculum that I never use. I have hinted at our convictions, without ever telling her, that my kids use the curriculum in a very non-traditional way (if at all). Each time, I have mentioned it, she says that kids need to learn certain things at certain times, if for no other reason than to not look stupid to others. I think that is absolutely ridiculous, but I am having a hard time talking her out of this mindset. My kids are brilliant. They are good at many different things, even experts on several subjects, but they can't tell you all the state capitals. That REALLY bothers her.

I have been comfortable letting her think we are using a curriculum (however loosely). But I am getting ready to have a significant surgery, and will be staying with her for recovery (for 6 weeks). She wants me to bring our "school" so that the kids won't get behind. I asked the kids if they would like to use their curriculum for several weeks, and they looked at me like I was nuts. I guess I'll have to come clean. Any thoughts?

Sheryl






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heather

If it were me, I would just tell my mom that the family will be
stressed enough just
dealing with your surgery & recovery so that you are declaring a
vacation from school
until you are fully recuperated.

And about knowing the state capitals...
Does she know them all? And if so, what use is that knowledge to her?
I'd just her I'm not worried about my kids, because if they need to
know the capital of some particular state
at some future point in time, they know how to look it up on google in seconds.

heather

On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Sheryl Lentine <shlentine@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I was hoping for some advice from some of you all experienced USers. I have
> been unschooling for several years now, and am FULLY convinced that I am
> doing the right thing. Trouble is, I have a mother that I am very close to.
> She lives next door to us, employs my husband, etc. Our lives are very much
> intertwined. Each year, with her encouragement, I buy a curriculum that I
> never use. I have hinted at our convictions, without ever telling her, that
> my kids use the curriculum in a very non-traditional way (if at all). Each
> time, I have mentioned it, she says that kids need to learn certain things
> at certain times, if for no other reason than to not look stupid to others.
> I think that is absolutely ridiculous, but I am having a hard time talking
> her out of this mindset. My kids are brilliant. They are good at many
> different things, even experts on several subjects, but they can't tell you
> all the state capitals. That REALLY bothers her.
>
> I have been comfortable letting her think we are using a curriculum (however
> loosely). But I am getting ready to have a significant surgery, and will be
> staying with her for recovery (for 6 weeks). She wants me to bring our
> "school" so that the kids won't get behind. I asked the kids if they would
> like to use their curriculum for several weeks, and they looked at me like I
> was nuts. I guess I'll have to come clean. Any thoughts?

Lyla Wolfenstein

i totally agree with the other feedback you have gotten, and i have nothing much to add - except that i have a 13 year old and am a recent convert to *true* RU with regard to chores, sleep, food, all of it. so perhaps from that perspective, my experience can provide some encouragement. i would say that until recently, the dynamic between my daughter and me (i have a son too, who's 10 - different dynamic) was markedly similar to what you describe. i felt torn between wanting help, acknowledgement, demonstration of "responsibility" and all kinds of other things from her that were beyond her capabilities and really unreasonable for me to expect.

almost as SOON as i backed off and really listened - and really started giving to her unconditionally, and let go of ALL the power struggles, etc. - she shifted to a place of much more peace and willingness to contribute - both on her own initiative, and when i request it.

but she is NOT responsible for keeping order in our home up to MY expectations. and she needs nurturing still - in the form of small gestures like me making her bed at night (takes 20 seconds and makes her feel cared for and nurtured), me serving her meals and getting her snacks often (although because i am so willing to do it so often, if i ask her to do it herself she is absolutely fine with it.)

our entire relationship has shifted with these changes and i wouldn't trade the cleanest house in the world for the way things were before. i have become acutely awared of just how little time left at home she likely has, and just how *extremeley* important our relationship is - above and beyond all else.

i highly recommend giving deep consideration to all the great advice you've gotten here.

warmly, Lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 13, 2008, at 2:50 PM, Sheryl Lentine wrote:

> She wants me to bring our "school" so that the kids won't get behind.

Tell her no.

Say, "No, I'm not planning to do that."

Stop there.

If she keeps talking about it say something like, "I've decided that I
want them to have this time free from other worries or stress."

But you don't have to explain any more than that. If she argues, use
the "I'll give that some thought," line, but just stick to your guns.

Also, I'm wondering why you all are going to live next door - why
doesn't she just come help you out and let you stay in your own house?
Seems that would be so much more comfortable for you and the kids.

I hope MY kids want to live next door and all that <G>, but you're a
grown woman with children and a husband and you shouldn't be afraid of
your own mother anymore. Maybe ask yourself what the worst-case
scenario is if you stand up to her. How bad could it really be? YOU
have control over her grandkids - ultimately YOU could keep her from
even seeing them at all. Seems to me that YOU have the power in this
relationship but you don't act like it. Is it because your husband
works for her? Maybe that's a really bad idea if it makes you feel you
have to kowtow to her.

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-If it were me, I would just tell my mom that the family will be
stressed enough just
dealing with your surgery & recovery so that you are declaring a
vacation from school
until you are fully recuperated.-=-



I agree with this. And make it clear that as they learn all year
anyway, the WHOLE time should be total vacation. If she breaths the
least school-sounding thing, you would only need to say the single
word "vacation." (Thinking of Pam's "towel" here.)

Meanwhile, maybe they could show her cool stuff on youTube or on DVDs
or they could do art together and you'd know they were learning but
she would think "vacation" and if she forgot you could say "vacation."



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-our entire relationship has shifted with these changes and i
wouldn't trade the cleanest house in the world for the way things
were before.-=-

People never get the cleanest house in the world from forced child
labor anyway. <g> They get a half-assed job and a LOT of
resentment. Better to do it yourself and learn to have fun doing it,
so others will want to help to get to hang out with you.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> I have been comfortable letting her think we are using a curriculum
(however loosely). But I am getting ready to have a significant surgery,
and will be staying with her for recovery (for 6 weeks). She wants me to
bring our "school" so that the kids won't get behind. I asked the kids
if they would like to use their curriculum for several weeks, and they
looked at me like I was nuts. I guess I'll have to come clean. Any
thoughts?
>


The very first thought I had was that when you are in surgery, you could
declare a vacation for your kids as well. If you aren't really wanting
to have a big curriculum discussion vs. unschooling discussion with her
right before you have surgery. Perhaps you could put together some fun
activities where your mom only needs to drop them off places or take
them places. Perhaps have a series of movies and books and activities
that all kind of relate to each other that take up lots of time in a
relaxed kind of way that keeps the kids looking busy and gives your mom
something to do that feels helpful.

You could even use something from the curriculum as the inspiration for
the activities and call it the hands on activity development or
something. Since you did already tell her that you use the curriculum
loosely, she could see it's loose usage and help put it in action. You
could tell her that you only "do" school from 10-noon each day and some
days you go out. So during 10-noon they could watch movies and do
little grandma crafts.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Each year, with her encouragement, I buy a curriculum that I never
use.-=-

This part I don't understand. What a waste of money. And it has
become a kind of a lie.

-=-Our lives are very much intertwined. -=-

And yet you're not honest with her?

You didn't say how old your children are.

-=-she says that kids need to learn certain things at certain times,
if for no other reason than to not look stupid to others. I think
that is absolutely ridiculous, but I am having a hard time talking
her out of this mindset. My kids are brilliant. -=-

Don't try to talk her out of it. Let it be. But don't let her be
the one who decides they "look stupid," either. Or if she thinks so,
keep your kids where they can't hear it.

-=-. I guess I'll have to come clean. Any thoughts?-=-

I still think the vacation plan is best. Fighting with her or
feeling stressed during recovery won't help.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 13, 2008, at 3:38 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> People never get the cleanest house in the world from forced child
> labor anyway. <g> They get a half-assed job and a LOT of
> resentment. Better to do it yourself and learn to have fun doing it,
> so others will want to help to get to hang out with you.


YES. This is what finally got me to completely let go of demands and
resentment - I realized that I could yell or cry or shame the kids
into submission, but they'd really still not do much, and we'd all be
unhappy. OR I could spend the time I'd have been struggling with them
doing some of the housework, doing it happily and with an attitude of
doing it as a gift for them. WHAT a change in dynamics.

Honestly, my kids don't do a lot of housework, definitely not as much
housework as I would have tried to make them do. But it is very sweet
when they do it. I love walking into the kitchen, thinking I'm going
to unload the dishwasher, and discover it's been done by someone else.
That's something they seem to do whenever they see it needs doing. And
they do all their own laundry unless I happen to think of offering to
do it - which is only every few months. We're living in a house that
is often pretty messy - I can live with that for the sake of having
happy times with my kids. When it gets to me, I clean up.

Housework takes a lot less time than I used to think, too. I think
when I was a kid and my mom made me do housework that it was such a
negative experience, with all the badgering and complaining and
resisting, that I built it all up in my head and I think of each task
as HUGE! But I figured out that I can almost completely clean the
kitchen, including doing a big load of dishes, in the time it takes
for my coffee maker to make one pot of coffee. So I do that almost
every morning and having a clean kitchen makes the rest of the messy
house a lot easier to handle, for me.

By the way, one of my kids lives in her own house now and her
housekeeping is a lot like mine - somewhat neglected in favor of more
enticing activities, then deep cleaned in a big huge burst of
housekeeping frenzy. Her house always seems really nice and tidy and
comfortable to me, but that's me - I'm used to a lot of clutter from
all the stuff we're always doing.

-pam

Jennifer Ironstone

Thank you, everyone, for your replies.


It is good to know that her sleeping habits are normal amongst
Unschooled teens. We aren't close with any other RU teens and no one
else in our little community of friends is doing anything remotely
like this (even our fellow Unschooling families) so it is VERY helpful
to get your feedback in this area. This part was the main thing I was
hoping to get clarity about with my inquiry. I had already assumed it
was normal, at least for my daughter, because it is simply what is in
her reality.


From what I see of your responses, this pattern is normal for teens
who are allowed to decide on their own sleeping habits and that is
reassuring to know because I don't like being the only ones! (Or,
rather, I like knowing that we are not so unusual in as many areas as
it sometimes feels. I don't mind being different, I love it actually,
but with too many things it begins to cause doubt for me.)


I LOVE the idea of middle-of-the-night household work! We've
discussed it and are going to give it a try.


Based on some of your responses, I want to elaborate on where I am
coming from in my intentions. I have always placed mothering my
children above all other priorities on my list of life goals. Yes,
kindness is my first priority as far as my values go, and mothering is
the vehicle for my kindness as action. I love nothing more in this
world as much as serving my children and seeing them happy and
creating/getting what they want from life. That said, I have had to
learn the hard way that I do not want to support their happiness at
the *expense of my own*, which has been a difficult hurdle for me as
my own mother was big on sacrifice and suffering in the name of
mothering and was, thus, confused yet outwardly and inwardly unkind.
This resulted in my extreme dislike for her (my mother) for many,
many years which, unfortunately, wasn't resolved before her tragic
death at age 56 when I was 30, already a mother for nearly 7 years at
the time, and only just beginning to want to get close to her again.
I've learned that I think I would have much preferred a kind mother
and less options than the many options and stressed-out, demanding
mother that were my reality.


Yes, I do "my daughter's" chores when I cancel my participation in her
activities. "THE chores" have to get done no matter what, so I do
them when she doesn't. However, I believe that my standards for the
chores are actually deeply relaxed and, yet, there is a certain
baseline standard that I refuse to leave the house without it being
met. We're talking basic safety & hygiene, here. Nothing even close
to extreme at all. The jobs are not *required* of her but I do need a
certain minimum of them done each day in order for our home to
function, regardless of who they're done by. There is also the very
real issue of time constraints. We have no electric dishwasher, live
in a tiny little house and eat almost all our meals at home -- so the
dishes are a big deal as are any piles of anything around here.


As far as the suggestion of hiring outside help with the chores: I do
not have money for that. I have a very, very limited income. Nearly
70% of my kids' classes are free programs and the others are all
reduced-fee/sliding-scale/trade kinds of arrangements. The money that
I do have for their interests is kind of an either/or thing -- classes
OR services like house-cleaning help. We've discussed this one
before and she chooses classes over hired house-cleaning help if there
is not the option for both. For a short while, we tried an
arrangement of her contributing funds from her babysitting work to
help contribute toward a little bit of hired help with the chores (her
idea as an alternative to participating in them herself). It didn't
last, however, because she quickly realized how expensive it was
compared to her realistic earning ability and my limited ability to
contribute financially to the situation, as well.


I call them family jobs because the children like having dishes to use
for eating, too. If they were to opt out of using any were there no
clean ones available, I could see them not minding making an even
bigger mess with their food if there were no plate/bowl underneath it
because then they'd likely opt out of cleaning that up, too. Then
there would be even more cleaning jobs to do. Personally, I like to
keep the jobs as minimal as possible since there is only so much of me
to go around and, again, there is literally no other adult picking up
any of the slack, here, and it's been this way for the better part of
my entire parenting career. Furthermore, I have health issues that
greatly limit my energies.


We have also been down a path of experimentation where I did not ask
for any help with any jobs. Yes, Dd contributed voluntarily, but,
yes, it was far less than was realistic to sustain things. The result
is that there was far less of me to be available for serving her
interests and yet she kept plugging for my contributions toward her
interest. This pattern effectively dried up my availability to my son
and HIS interests, which did not sit well with me. So we sat down and
I explained to Dd how, if she wanted these things from me, I needed
more from her in the way of reliable help with the jobs. That her
contribution toward them meant more of me to serve her. She gets it
entirely but just doesn't always remember the logic in the day-to-day
of things, which I understand. It's the going around and around of
all this that is just so exhausting. It is cyclical.


So, basically, I am just running myself too thin. I am the single
driver, food-maker, house-cleaner, day-planner and supporter-of-
everything else financially, physically, energetically, mentally,
emotionally, etc. I have tried to maintain the same level of life-
quality for her even though her contributions and their quality have
declined because, frankly, I want her to have these things as much as
it is possible -- 'what is possible' being the key factor.


Sandra, you asked for details regarding my participation in my
daughter's activities. Here is the breakdown:


* paying fees when relevant
* organizing time/schedule-planning
* researching class/activity offerings (and discussing them with her
which is surprisingly time-consuming)
* talking on the phone/orchestrating daily plans
* driving (huge time-sucker)
* waiting during activities and occupying her brother during the
waiting
* the biggie: being available to receive and negotiate her Very
Frequent requests for lots of things/experiences/opportunities/etc.
(I can elaborate on this one if requested. Basically, my daughter is
a very energetic, highly-spirited person who makes tons of requests
all the time - she's been this way for her whole life. The requests
are for information, activities, outings, material things, etc. etc.
etc. She's really into planning & doing lots and it all still needs to
involve me to a large extent, being the only supporter of her
reality.)


Anyway, I want to mention also how thankful I am for all of your
critical feedback. It is good to look at this stuff from as many
angles as possible and I love that there is this group of people who
are all paving their own paths as they go. I am reminded of just how
valuable support is to me and that I may need to participate in this
group more regularly so as not to feel so strange compared to nearly
everyone else we know. Most of our local Unschooling friends have
children that are younger than my daughter's age, so she is kind of
the pioneer of our little community. Friends come to US to ask what
is normal for their child's age because I've got the oldest one.

Jennifer Ironstone

Oh, I'd also like to respond to the assumptive comment that I am angry
when my daughter wakes up in the afternoon/goes to sleep very late --


I am not *angered* by this pattern of hers. I was feeling afraid for
her well-being as many people in my life say things like "that is not
normal" as in "unhealthy" and/or that it is "unacceptable", etc.
Obviously, these are their opinions and not my own but with so many
people saying it and no one to refer to that was/is like us, I became
fearful and doubted things. Again, I am so grateful for the
reassurance of this group. Thank you again.

Sandra Dodd

-=-It's the going around and around of
all this that is just so exhausting. It is cyclical.-=-

Yes. It's a cycle that's causing problems, and we're trying to help
you see how to stop the negative cycle. You're blaming your
daughter, but it's not your daughter's doing.


-=-Yes, I do "my daughter's" chores when I cancel my participation in
her
activities. "THE chores" have to get done no matter what, so I do
them when she doesn't. However, I believe that my standards for the
chores are actually deeply relaxed and, yet, there is a certain
baseline standard that I refuse to leave the house without it being
met. We're talking basic safety & hygiene, here. Nothing even close
to extreme at all. The jobs are not *required* of her but I do need a
certain minimum of them done each day in order for our home to
function, regardless of who they're done by. -=-

This might help you see this as a choice instead of as a "have to."
I'm guessing you haven't gotten a chance to look at the links about
chores, but please do look at them. It's a small tweak with a large
effect.

http://sandradodd.com/haveto

http://sandradodd.com/chore/option

You referred to your "RU Teen." I'd rather people use full terms on
this list. I question whether you should be using "radical
unschooling" if you're cranky about late hours and requiring lots of
chores.

Another request I've made before on this list is for people to really
look at the euphemisms they might be using, and be honest with
terminology. To call chores "family jobs" is just a euphemism. At
my house there are NO chores. Zero. Chore means "unpleasant
task." But we don't have another tricky name for chores either.
We call things what they are. There is yard work, and laundry.
There's cooking (which is fun). There's filing books and putting
games and DVDs back on shelves. Each thing is done because we need
the new work space or because we're looking for something and it's
easier when things. One of us puts towels in each bathroom. When
one bathroom is nearly out of toilet paper, they all get toilet
paper. When it's the night before trash day, a couple or three
people go around and empty trash from various little trashcans.
Someone (not always the same person) takes the can to the curb. If
I were the only one living here, I would do it all myself, but I'm
not so I don't. Neither do I assign any jobs to anyone else.

I know it must seem impossible to picture for anyone who hasn't
really, truly and fully let it go and been willing to do it.

Same with most of the other parenting aspects of radical
unschooling. Same with the deschooling itself. Anyone who isn't
willing to take the risk cannot have the benefit. Anyone who won't
let it go until it happens will not have it happen a their house.

To say 'I had to cancel my participation' instead of "I told her I
won't drive her anywhere before noon" is a dodge. Mindful parenting
won't come without clarity of thought.



-=-I call them family jobs because the children like having dishes to
use for eating, too. If they were to opt out of using any were there
no clean ones available, I could see them not minding making an even
bigger mess with their food if there were no plate/bowl underneath it
because then they'd likely opt out of cleaning that up, too. -=-

Ah. You didn't go to Joyce's site and read what she has to say about
dishes, or you wouldn't have written this.

Before you post again, please do read what you've missed about
chores. You would have saved SO much energy and time already had you
read those things a year and a half ago.


-=-We've discussed this one before and she chooses classes over hired
house-cleaning help if there is not the option for both. For a short
while, we tried an arrangement of her contributing funds from her
babysitting work to help contribute toward a little bit of hired help
with the chores (her idea as an alternative to participating in them
herself). -=-

That's a LOT of words to say (I think) that if she didn't want to do
chores she would have to pay someone else to do them. This is not
relationship building.



-=-We have also been down a path of experimentation where I did not ask

for any help with any jobs. Yes, Dd contributed voluntarily, but,
yes, it was far less than was realistic to sustain things. The result
is that there was far less of me to be available for serving her
interests and yet she kept plugging for my contributions toward her
interest. -=-

"A path of experimentation" is not a commitment. I'm guessing your
experiment lasted a couple of weeks. Just as with deschooling, the
more you've required, the more a child will celebrate the lack of
requirements by "doing nothing" at first. A child who hasn't been
allowed to have food will gorge if the rules are lifted. You can't
say "I'm going to experiment with letting you play all the video
games you want for a week," and NOT expect the child to play 20 hours
a day, knowing you're about to go back to the rules.

-=-yet she kept plugging for my contributions toward her interest.
This pattern effectively dried up my availability to my son and HIS
interests, which did not sit well with me. -=-

You blame her in harsh words for your life not being more pleasant.
It's not loving. It's not kind.

Maybe if your goal could be learning, and unschooling, more than
kindness, you could make choices with that foremost.

-=-So we sat down and I explained to Dd how, if she wanted these
things from me, I needed more from her in the way of reliable help
with the jobs. That her contribution toward them meant more of me to
serve her.-=-

This "serve her" sounds a little oogie now, especially since it
sounds like you were (perhaps ad nauseum) explaining to her how she
needs to serve you if she wants her unschooling life to be rich and
full.

-=-Sandra, you asked for details regarding my participation in my
daughter's activities. -=-

No, I asked for a rephrasing of "had to cancel my participation in my
daughter's activities." I have three kids, each of whom was fourteen
for a full year. I know what it means to support their activities,
to drive them around, to wait during classes. What I don't know is
"had to cancel my participation."

You chose to refuse to do something, but you had a fancy way of
dodging the responsibility for that decision. Maybe you're even in
denial within yourself of the kinds of limits and conditions you're
putting on your daughter.

Your relationship sounds very adversarial.

http://sandradodd.com/adversaries

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> Oh, I'd also like to respond to the assumptive comment that I am angry
> when my daughter wakes up in the afternoon/goes to sleep very late --
>


Perhaps I didn't read everything, but anger or no anger this is what you
said

"So our household has become very
unpredictable and volatile due to her constant deal-breaking and
pattern of hostility. This has become increasingly unrealistic and
stressful for her brother and for me."

In the absence of a happy coexistence with a 14 yr old, having a
volatile relationship seems pretty bad. None of us are in your house
listening to your interaction with your daughter, but, I don't see how a
parent can appear happy and cheerful to a daughter that isn't measuring
up in the parent's standards. I think both of my kids would see that as
being angry, or dissappointed, or something, but clearly not happy
coexistence, and certainly not pleasant.

Your voice could be kind and patient, but your actions are not, and kids
read those just as much as tone and presence.

diana jenner

It's not so applicable where it doesn't snow, but I like it anyway:

Trying to clean while children are growing,
is like trying to shovel while it's still snowing.

I had 4 "loaner" kids at my house last week. My little friend, Willow, 7,
commented several times she was *so* happy our house was as messy as theirs
:D Having a house that looks like people *live* there is far more important
than having a house that's presentable to those who live in museums! Not to
mention the free time I have available for fun stuff because I'm not
obsessing about any household chore *have-tos*
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-our entire relationship has shifted with these changes and i
> wouldn't trade the cleanest house in the world for the way things
> were before.-=-
>
> People never get the cleanest house in the world from forced child
> labor anyway. <g> They get a half-assed job and a LOT of
> resentment. Better to do it yourself and learn to have fun doing it,
> so others will want to help to get to hang out with you.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On Oct 13, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Jenny C wrote:

> Perhaps have a series of movies and books and activities
> that all kind of relate to each other that take up lots of time in a
> relaxed kind of way that keeps the kids looking busy and gives your
> mom
> something to do that feels helpful.

Maybe you could ask your kids and your mom to do a living history
project - put together a photo album, explore family history, explore
the things your mom remembers from her own life and her relatives',
etc. Let them surprise you with a presentation; let the kids teach
Grandma how to use PowerPoint or the digital camera <g>

Nancy

Margaret

You wrote a long long reply but the thing that stood out to me most was this:

> I LOVE the idea of middle-of-the-night household work! We've
> discussed it and are going to give it a try

I read the thread and if "I should make her do her household work in
the middle of the night" was what you got out of it then I think you
should read the replies again. The links too. Really.

Nancy Wooton

On Oct 13, 2008, at 11:03 PM, Margaret wrote:

> You wrote a long long reply but the thing that stood out to me most
> was this:
>
>> I LOVE the idea of middle-of-the-night household work! We've
>> discussed it and are going to give it a try
>
> I read the thread and if "I should make her do her household work in
> the middle of the night" was what you got out of it then I think you
> should read the replies again. The links too. Really.


Oh, heavens! I hope that wasn't the impression *I* gave, since I'm
the one who brought it up. My daughter, who is 21, not 14, will do
the dishes before she goes to bed. She might do them at midnight, or
2 a.m. or so. I don't *make* her do anything. She did them this
evening while I was fixing dinner because they hadn't gotten done
earlier and we needed plates <g> I'll admit, it's really nice to wake
up to a clean kitchen, whether she's done it, or I've done it before
going to bed myself.

Nancy

Nancy Wooton

On Oct 13, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Jennifer Ironstone wrote:

>
> I call them family jobs because the children like having dishes to use
> for eating, too. If they were to opt out of using any were there no
> clean ones available, I could see them not minding making an even
> bigger mess with their food if there were no plate/bowl underneath it
> because then they'd likely opt out of cleaning that up, too.

I've never had a dishwasher, so I've used paper plates for many
years. Sorry, trees ;-) I do a lot of my grocery shopping at a
restaurant supply chain called "Smart and Final," where I get 500
paper plates for about $7. We use them for breakfast and lunch, and
for dinner if we have something like pizza.

Nancy

Jennifer Ironstone

--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> > Oh, I'd also like to respond to the assumptive comment that I am
angry
> > when my daughter wakes up in the afternoon/goes to sleep very late
--
> >
>
>
> Perhaps I didn't read everything, but anger or no anger this is what
you
> said
>
> "So our household has become very
> unpredictable and volatile due to her constant deal-breaking and
> pattern of hostility. This has become increasingly unrealistic and
> stressful for her brother and for me."
>
> In the absence of a happy coexistence with a 14 yr old, having a
> volatile relationship seems pretty bad. None of us are in your
house
> listening to your interaction with your daughter, but, I don't see
how a
> parent can appear happy and cheerful to a daughter that isn't
measuring
> up in the parent's standards. I think both of my kids would see
that as
> being angry, or dissappointed, or something, but clearly not happy
> coexistence, and certainly not pleasant.
>
> Your voice could be kind and patient, but your actions are not, and
kids
> read those just as much as tone and presence.
>



I agree with you, Jenny, and thank you for this. It makes a lot of
sense and I've been thinking about it all night. I can definitely see
where my stress and overwhelm at the load could appear to be about my
daughter and that she probably does take it personally, despite the
fact that I verbalize my awareness of my stress as my own and not
about her.

Schuyler

Now that is an even better suggestion than midnight cleaning. Look for easy ways to get things solved like dishes. Paper plates are brilliant for us when there are lots of people over. Even though there are still other things to be washed, having the plates be paper takes some of it out of the equation. Ask for more specific help and lots of people will offer suggestions. If you want to have a less volatile household you need to move toward being less oppositional with your daughter, move to finding more solutions that don't include her labor. There are lots of helpful solutions that people come up with for ways of taking care of the things that you feel need to be cared for much easier. I am often impressed with the ideas that others have thought of and use.

Simon and Linnaea have never opted in for doing the dishes, well, when Simon was 5 and Linnaea was 2 they did them a couple of times. We have never had a dishwasher and we've always managed to have enough clean dishes to serve everyone. Even when David wasn't around. Even when folks are sick. Even when we are really, really busy. At no time are we requiring Simon or Linnaea to do the dishes. And yet neither of your choices, children washing dishes or no dishes leaving children eating out of their hands, seems to happen.

I like doing dishes. I like standing in the kitchen and looking out the window with music playing on the stereo or talk radio thinking wispy thoughts, following the tendrils of ideas for a little while, washing the dishes. It's very meditative. It's very relaxing. It doesn't take long, maybe 15 minutes twice a day, maybe 25 minutes once a day. I do have help. David does the dishes fairly regularly. I think he enjoys doing them too. He plays really loud music while he does the dishes. The dishes air dry, which takes a step out of the labor. And they get put away before the next wash, usually, although sometimes they get used before the next wash happens. Sometimes I let things soak overnight. Sometimes I start doing the dishes and get distracted by something more important, more engaging and go and deal with that and then something else and then it's too late and when I get up in the morning I drain the sink and refill and they are really easy to finish.

Having a clean house isn't anywhere near as important as having a house that all of us enjoy living in. Having dishes done isn't more important than hanging out with Simon and Linnaea. Having a vacuumed floor isn't more important than letting Simon or Linnaea watch a television show uninterrupted. Having my to do list cleared isn't more important than going to the game store because Simon wants to get Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow for the DS and we could fit in a 20 minute game of laser tag and check out Casltevania Portrait of Ruin from the library. Actually, I don't have a to do list, but if I did...

Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com



-----------

On Oct 13, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Jennifer Ironstone wrote:

>>
>> I call them family jobs because the children like having dishes to use
>> for eating, too. If they were to opt out of using any were there no
>> clean ones available, I could see them not minding making an even
>> bigger mess with their food if there were no plate/bowl underneath it
>> because then they'd likely opt out of cleaning that up, too.

>Nancy Wooten wrote:
>I've never had a dishwasher, so I've used paper plates for many
>years. Sorry, trees ;-) I do a lot of my grocery shopping at a
>restaurant supply chain called "Smart and Final," where I get 500
>paper plates for about $7. We use them for breakfast and lunch, and
>for dinner if we have something like pizza.

Nancy


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 13, 2008, at 9:46 PM, Jennifer Ironstone wrote:

> That said, I have had to
> learn the hard way that I do not want to support their happiness at
> the *expense of my own*, which has been a difficult hurdle for me as
> my own mother was big on sacrifice

But what it's sounding like to me is that you've allowed yourself to
overschedule and are depending on your daughter to make the
overscheduling work. But she isn't capable of that. Yes, I understand
she's agreeing to put in the time, but at 14 she's showing you she
isn't capable.

The original problem is fitting all these activities into the day.
You've chosen the solution of your daughter helping in order to make
that happen. And now you've turned getting your daughter to help into
the new problem.

Start over. Focus on the original problem, not this made up problem
about 14 yo help that's obviously not working.

Put yourself on the schedule.

Be realistic about the number of hours you need to get your stuff
done. Show the kids what you would like to accomplish to see if they
can see where you're maybe making it more difficult for yourself.
Take their ideas seriously, even if they sound off the wall
initially. (*Don't* show them the list to guilt them into helping.)
Don't schedule more than you have time for. If they offer to help,
let them know ahead of time what activity you won't be able to take
them to if something doesn't get done. Don't get mad. Don't expect
them to help. It's not a way to punish them. Reality is that there
are just so many hours in the day and if you've overbooked an hour,
something's got to give.

Bring some of the chores that seem to suck up time here and ask what
others do. The solutions people suggest may not be perfect to your
situation, but in those cases look at the sideways thinking rather
than the specific suggestion.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

I've added this to one of the many pages on chores I have collected
over the years:

"Having a clean house isn't anywhere near as important as having a
house that all of us enjoy living in. Having dishes done isn't more
important than hanging out with Simon and Linnaea. Having a vacuumed
floor isn't more important than letting Simon or Linnaea watch a
television show uninterrupted. Having my to do list cleared isn't
more important than going to the game store because Simon wants to
get Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow for the DS and we could fit in a 20
minute game of laser tag and check out Casltevania Portrait of Ruin
from the library. Actually, I don't have a to do list, but if I did..."



It's now the first item after the introduction on this page:

http://sandradodd.com/chore/intro

Some people do find those pages and read them and their children's
lives are made better, and their own lives are made better, and they
get along better with the other people in their lives. I know it's
true because I get feedback, and because that feedback needs to be
shared with people like Schuyler (who wrote the paragraph above) and
dozens of other people who have written clearly and helpfully and
generously, I keep some of it here.

http://sandradodd.com/feedback

I'll add some of today's criticism to the negatives column. I'm not
sure it was let through to the list. I got to sleep a long time last
night and it was great! Other moderators have been here before me
and I'm not sure if they let the worst stuff through. I hit
"approve" on my end, but if it was already rejected that's fine.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I can definitely see
where my stress and overwhelm at the load could appear to be about my
daughter and that she probably does take it personally, despite the
fact that I verbalize my awareness of my stress as my own and not
about her. -=-

Words don't trump truth. You explained to us clearly and at length
that your daughter's behavior was affecting your life negatively, and
hers, and your son's. Taking it back won't change what you've
already said here. Telling your daughter "I'd not about you" won't
fool her, either.

-=-Now that is an even better suggestion than midnight cleaning. Look
for easy ways to get things solved like dishes. Paper plates are
brilliant for us when there are lots of people over.-=-

Had the original poster actually read Joyce's pages on chores, that
point would've been a part of her options-list already. I don't
think claiming to have read something is NEARLY as good as actually
reading it and then considering it at some length.

I'm further down in my e-mail now and I know some of the morning's
posts were headed off and returned. It's probably for the best, but
my response here is based on some of what didn't go to the list.
Sorry about that, but the poster could use the feedback, perhaps, and
I'm unwilling to spend energy in private that could benefit others
reading here.

The poster had commented that some of her posts hadn't gone through.
Please, to anyone who's read this far, when you join a list, READ THE
INTRO of the group you've just joined. New posters on this list are
moderated. Rude posts might not be let through. Rude posters might
be unceremoniously removed.

"This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative.
(Not moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-
play way. New members' posts are moderated, and it's good to read
several dozen posts before jumping in.) "
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/

When a mom is having trouble with a 14 year old and wants to bat all
suggestions away as undoable, impossible, inapplicable, and then
insult the list and listowner what, in the meantime, is going on with
the relationship with the daughter? This list doesn't exist to make
mothers feel better about not changing. It exists to help fourteen
year old girls have better mothering.

One glance in the archives will give a clue at how many thousands of
hours of writing hundreds of unschooling parents have done to freely
and generously help others understand unschooling. For someone to
come here and say "I joined a year and a half ago..." and then prove
that none of that was being read or used does make me want to grease
up my long-unused trapdoor. But I think it helps others see how far
they've come when someone resists all this help and experience.

Sandra








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