lparaujo2001

Hello, all. First of all, I'm speaking from the heart and I hope
someone out there in the homeschool community has walked in my shoes
and I'm hoping can give me some incredible words of wisdom to help me
deal with my inner conflict. I have a 9 year-old dyslexic son who is
really having an obvious difficult time in reading. I have a 12 year-
old austic son who at times can be extremely overwhelming with his
needs. I also have a 2 year old toddler whom I can't devote that
much time too because I have my hands full with my autistic son. I
am unschooling them but at the same time I find myself so conflicted
with their needs and the way I'm dealing with getting their needs
met. I am paying out of pocket for my dyslexic son to learn how to
read and it's costing me a fortune but I find I have no choice or do
I? How do unschoolers deal with dyslexic children? I'm just
wondering if parents with children with special disabilities
unschool, and how they go about dealing with their special needs. I
find myself so conflicted thinking about what I could do if I enroll
them in the public school system but don't want to because I choose
unschool. Any words of wisdom please would be greatly appreciated.
No browbeating please as I find I do that myself repeatedly with my
inner conflict. I apologize in advance if I offend anyone b ut I
simply need wisdom from parents who have been in this situation.
Thank you.

Leticia

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< I have a 9 year-old dyslexic son who is
> really having an obvious difficult time in reading. >>>>

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time.

I suggest that you pull your 9 yo out of what ever reading program he is in
today, even if you can't get a refund. Not one single more class. I would go
so far as to apologise to him for not trusting him to come to reading on his
own terms, at his own pace. Let him know that it was your mistake, not his,
to put him into that class.

Surely you know that we will tell you to let go of the label of dyslexic as
irrelevant to unschooling. Dyslexia is only relevant within a schooling
timetable. Reading at any age is only relevant withing a schooling
timetable.

I don't think you are paying for your son to learn to read. You are paying
someone to engage in a daily (or whenever the lessons are) struggle with
your son, a daily message for him that there is something wrong with him.

Just letting go of that fear, and being ready just to read to him whenever
he wants it, when you can, including quickly translating the message on the
computer screen of his game, will go a long way towards lifing some of your
stress. It will take a while, but eventually the "I'm stupid/reading sucks"
feelings he probably lives with in his heart will fade away. The experience
of unschoolers is that damage heals, and reading happens.

Watching a child learning to read in their own way is fascinating. Is my
daughter dyslexic? I honestly don't know and couldn't care less. But she is
9 in 9 days, and on her merry way to reading.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 7, 2008, at 1:08 PM, lparaujo2001 wrote:

> I have a 9 year-old dyslexic son who is
> really having an obvious difficult time in reading.

Lots of 9 yo non-dyslexic boys aren't reading at 9. So, really,
you're asking him to be able to read now with a reading difference
when many 9 yos can't without.

> it's costing me a fortune but I find I have no choice or do
> I?
>

I'd drop it now. That will free up some time and relieve some stress
from the atmosphere.

Dyslexic kids tend to take longer to figure out reading in their own
unique way. If he were in school, that would be a problem. Schools
want everyone reading independently by 4th grade so of course schools
channel kids who aren't on that track into special programs. (That
doesn't mean the programs get the kids reading by 4th grade of course!)

Sandra has the beginning of a page on autism:

http://sandradodd.com/special/autism

But you can also try typing in autistic/autism and dyslexic/dyslexia
into the archives of several unschooling lists to see how unschoolers
approach differences. I'm sorry some of the more intense issues can't
get lots of immediate responses, but the archives should help:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/messages
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/messages
http://groups.google.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/topics

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-How do unschoolers deal with dyslexic children? -=-

I didn't "deal with" any of my children. One would've been called
dyslexic if a school could get some money out of doing that or a
teacher could count him in a different category so her stats looked
better.

I didn't ever use the term dyslexic (he heard it a couple of years
ago and said "you think I am?" when he was 17 years old or so). He
learned to read and write the same way any other unschooled child
did--gradually and in his own way.

http://sandradodd.com/reading
Lots of people's stories are there.

-=-I am paying out of pocket for my dyslexic son to learn how to
read and it's costing me a fortune but I find I have no choice or do
I?-=-

It's certainly not unschooling to do that. I hope you'll stop right
away, as Robyn recommended. If you bought a dozen donuts and decided
you only wanted three, would you finish the others off anyway? It's
already cost you the same as a dozen. Eating more would be
harmful. Let it go.

As to whether you have a choice or not, yes. You *always* have a
choice.

-=-I hope someone out there in the homeschool community has walked in
my shoes and I'm hoping can give me some incredible words of wisdom
to help me -=-

There are over 1000 people on this list. Don't limit yourself to
asking for feedback just from those who have "walked in your shoes."
Perhaps there were better ways to have walked, and you could do
better with your third child.

-=-I simply need wisdom from parents who have been in this situation.
-=-

It very often happens that people come to lists like this thinking
they know exactly what they need, and thinking it will be simple, but
what they need more than anything is to move more surely toward
unschooling, and other things will fall into place.

http://sandradodd.com/choices

http://sandradodd.com/help



Sandra

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lparaujo2001

You think I should apologize for not trusting him? Wow. I love my
son with all of my heart, and I really want the best for him. When
he writes me notes and writes everything backwards, and when I read
to him and he asks me why he can't read it, saying he wants to learn
to read and that I do something to help him, what can I do as a
parent? I try to do the best I can for him and read constantly to
him as much as I can, but I'm frankly overwhelmed and I don't know
how to teach someone to not read backwards. I'm not specialized in
that area and I can't apologize for seeking help for him when it's
something he wants and is requesting. Yeah, maybe you're suggestion
is correct and I should take him out of his tutoring and I guess I'll
just have to see what happens with time that everything will fall
into place naturally as everything is a learning experience even
writing on this board and learning different perspectives is an
incredible mind opening experience. My main goal as his parent is
that I simply don't want him stressing out, but I can't help feeling
internally stressed seeing him unhappy, but I guess that's where my
conflict is. I want to let things be and come naturally but when he
seems so upset with himself, I want to help him in any way I can. I
was simply seeking a perspective from a parent who has been in this
situation. I will do research on the suggestions provided by Ms. Dodd
as well as others who have posted to my post, which I appreciate and
thank you in advance.

Leticia

--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn"
<dezigna@...> wrote:
>
> <<<< I have a 9 year-old dyslexic son who is
> > really having an obvious difficult time in reading. >>>>
>
> I'm sorry you are having such a hard time.
>
> I suggest that you pull your 9 yo out of what ever reading program
he is in
> today, even if you can't get a refund. Not one single more class. I
would go
> so far as to apologise to him for not trusting him to come to
reading on his
> own terms, at his own pace. Let him know that it was your mistake,
not his,
> to put him into that class.
>
> Surely you know that we will tell you to let go of the label of
dyslexic as
> irrelevant to unschooling. Dyslexia is only relevant within a
schooling
> timetable. Reading at any age is only relevant withing a schooling
> timetable.
>
> I don't think you are paying for your son to learn to read. You are
paying
> someone to engage in a daily (or whenever the lessons are) struggle
with
> your son, a daily message for him that there is something wrong
with him.
>
> Just letting go of that fear, and being ready just to read to him
whenever
> he wants it, when you can, including quickly translating the
message on the
> computer screen of his game, will go a long way towards lifing some
of your
> stress. It will take a while, but eventually the "I'm
stupid/reading sucks"
> feelings he probably lives with in his heart will fade away. The
experience
> of unschoolers is that damage heals, and reading happens.
>
> Watching a child learning to read in their own way is fascinating.
Is my
> daughter dyslexic? I honestly don't know and couldn't care less.
But she is
> 9 in 9 days, and on her merry way to reading.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
>

k

I think others have responded as I would.

Here's another thing. Channel some of that money that would have gone
toward academic stuff (unless it's completely gone) toward finding a
teenager who could be a mom's helper (like 1 or 2 days a week) with your 2
year old. That could free you up for time to yourself maybe, as well as
with your other kids.

~Katherine



On 10/7/08, lparaujo2001 <lparaujo2001@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, all. First of all, I'm speaking from the heart and I hope
> someone out there in the homeschool community has walked in my shoes
> and I'm hoping can give me some incredible words of wisdom to help me
> deal with my inner conflict. I have a 9 year-old dyslexic son who is
> really having an obvious difficult time in reading. I have a 12 year-
> old austic son who at times can be extremely overwhelming with his
> needs. I also have a 2 year old toddler whom I can't devote that
> much time too because I have my hands full with my autistic son. I
> am unschooling them but at the same time I find myself so conflicted
> with their needs and the way I'm dealing with getting their needs
> met. I am paying out of pocket for my dyslexic son to learn how to
> read and it's costing me a fortune but I find I have no choice or do
> I? How do unschoolers deal with dyslexic children? I'm just
> wondering if parents with children with special disabilities
> unschool, and how they go about dealing with their special needs. I
> find myself so conflicted thinking about what I could do if I enroll
> them in the public school system but don't want to because I choose
> unschool. Any words of wisdom please would be greatly appreciated.
> No browbeating please as I find I do that myself repeatedly with my
> inner conflict. I apologize in advance if I offend anyone b ut I
> simply need wisdom from parents who have been in this situation.
> Thank you.
>
> Leticia
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< You think I should apologize for not trusting him?>>>>

Only so that he doesn't want to add not being successful in that class to
any sense of failure he may already be carrying around.

<<<<I love my son with all of my heart, and I really want the best for
him.>>>

One thing that I can say for sure is that love and trust, unschooling trust,
are not the same thing. Every parent who sends their angry kids to military
boarding school to sort out their behavior problems love their kids with all
their heart and really want the best for them. Every parent who who enrols
their kid in Sylvan and buys them a new computer game only after they get an
A loves their kid with all their heart and really wants the best for him or
her.

Everyone here loves their children with all their hearts and really want the
best for them.


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Ed Wendell

Since Zac did go to school and did receive a diagnosis of Severe Dyslexia - the whole reason we pulled him out of school at age 8.5 and chose to home school was to give him the gift of time.

I would say that total unschooling was the key to helping our (dyslexic) son. We gave him many opportunities for rich and varied experiences as well supporting any passions or interests - strewing was also important.

He is 14 now and it seems that he is reading well. I can say that he reads what he wants to. He can read and play games and very lengthy game guides. He is passionate about Japanese Manga - this was the door to reading books for him. They are books written in a comic book fashion. He can read the backs of movies to rent. He has begun reading the intro news page to Road Runner our internet provider - I know this because he will often mention some news item he has read. He can look things up on eBay, the internet, Google for information, etc. The other day he rented a movie at Block Buster - watched it in the middle of the night and told me later that it was in Japanese and he had to keep pausing it to read the sub-titles. So given that, I would say he can read. I never ask him to read to me, so to say he can read such and such - I really have no idea. ;) I just see it (reading) in his everyday living.

He may never read a novel - who knows? My 2 sisters who are not dyslexic in any way, never read novels - they love magazines. One is a pediatric head nurse at a children's hospital and one is an interior architect.

Games were the first lead into his desire to read. RuneScape was the beginning of his working at it because he wanted to. His dad and I spent hours sitting close by so we could spell for him when he asked. We'd sit in a chair and read close to where he was playing and he would ask when he wanted help. Eventually he got into various other games where he wanted independence and would work at the reading - that led to reading game guides, etc. We got him an item called a Spelling Ace that gave him more independence. Then he found the Manga books and became passionate about reading those. The manga fits with his passion for the Anime shows and movies he likes. He is making a Japanese Samurai armor for his Halloween costume this year.

I keep talking about his independence - that came from within himself not something we forced upon him. He just began to stay home more to play games when we ran errands, etc. and that led to his wanting to be more successful on his own. He will still call us on our cell phones to ask how to spell a word. ;)

Lisa W.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lparaujo2001

Robyn, I think you're implication that I'm looking for an "A"
equaling "love" here is insulting. I didn't sign him into a
classroom or "sylvan" type of setting and frankly I'm not interested
and/or seeking into getting into a confrontational discussion. I'm
not going to apologize for my feelings and/or for seeking advice from
the large pool of unschooling parents. The few responses I have
received have provided me with plenty of information. Thank you.

--- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn"
<dezigna@...> wrote:
>
> <<<< You think I should apologize for not trusting him?>>>>
>
> Only so that he doesn't want to add not being successful in that
class to
> any sense of failure he may already be carrying around.
>
> <<<<I love my son with all of my heart, and I really want the best
for
> him.>>>
>
> One thing that I can say for sure is that love and trust,
unschooling trust,
> are not the same thing. Every parent who sends their angry kids to
military
> boarding school to sort out their behavior problems love their kids
with all
> their heart and really want the best for them. Every parent who who
enrols
> their kid in Sylvan and buys them a new computer game only after
they get an
> A loves their kid with all their heart and really wants the best
for him or
> her.
>
> Everyone here loves their children with all their hearts and really
want the
> best for them.
>
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
>

Laureen

Heya!

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 4:22 PM, lparaujo2001 <lparaujo2001@...> wrote:
I love my
> son with all of my heart, and I really want the best for him.

You might try reframing "best" and see what happens.


When
> he writes me notes and writes everything backwards, and when I read
> to him and he asks me why he can't read it, saying he wants to learn
> to read and that I do something to help him, what can I do as a
> parent?

Here's something I wrote on that:
http://lifewithoutschool.typepad.com/lifewithoutschool/2008/07/upside-down-and.html

Granted, Rowan is six, not nine, but the principle applies.


I try to do the best I can for him and read constantly to
> him as much as I can, but I'm frankly overwhelmed and I don't know
> how to teach someone to not read backwards.

Stop teaching. Breathe. Start just enjoying together. Who says he has
to read now?


I'm not specialized in
> that area and I can't apologize for seeking help for him when it's
> something he wants and is requesting.

Why does he think he needs it? Why isn't he comfy learning in his own time?


> incredible mind opening experience. My main goal as his parent is
> that I simply don't want him stressing out, but I can't help feeling
> internally stressed seeing him unhappy, but I guess that's where my
> conflict is. I want to let things be and come naturally but when he
> seems so upset with himself, I want to help him in any way I can.

Why is he upset with himself? Maybe sharing stories of other kids who
learned later, and just fine, might help.


I
> was simply seeking a perspective from a parent who has been in this
> situation.

I'm entirely positive Rowan would get a diagnosis if I subjected him
to people who did things like diagnose kids, instead of recognizing
their strengths and not worrying so much about their weaknesses.

--
~~L!

~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/

Evolving here:
http://www.consciouswoman.org/
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~

Sandra Dodd

-=-Channel some of that money that would have gone
toward academic stuff (unless it's completely gone) toward finding a
teenager who could be a mom's helper (like 1 or 2 days a week) with
your 2
year old. That could free you up for time to yourself maybe, as well as
with your other kids.-=-

Good idea!

Doesn't even need to be a teenager, if there's a ten or twelve year
old girl who likes kids, or a boy who could come and hang around with
your middle kid and play. Pay them $3 or $4 an hour to be there
while you're there and it could make everyone's time better.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-You think I should apologize for not trusting him? Wow-=-
If you want to help him feel better about himself, an apology might
help.

Whether you apologize or not, though, the reading lessons are hurting
and not helping.

-=- I love my son with all of my heart, and I really want the best
for him.-=-

The implication of this is that you're writing to people who don't
love their children and aren't particular about what might be best
for them. Please read your posts back to yourself before you send
them. There are many people here whose children have learned to
read, who have great relationships with their families, who are
helping voluntarily and wonderfully. Be nice to them.



Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I would say that total unschooling was the key to helping our
(dyslexic) son. We gave him many opportunities for rich and varied
experiences as well supporting any passions or interests - strewing
was also important.-=-

http://sandradodd.com/strewing

If he's not reading, find lots of things for him to do that don't
involve reading and by the time he can read he'll have a huge
vocabulary. That's how it went with Holly. She didn't read until
she was 11, nearly 12 I think, but her second book was Stephen King.
She didn't need any beginning readers. When it clicked, she zoomed.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael Stonebraker

I agree with this. My daughter, who is nine, isn't reading but her
vocabulary is amazing. Shelby's ability to clearly communicate is a
trait that I admire. The "code" is beginning to unravel for her but
she certainly doesn't feel any pressure. She has a lot of things she
loves.

Clint
On Oct 7, 2008, at 8:43 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=-I would say that total unschooling was the key to helping our
> (dyslexic) son. We gave him many opportunities for rich and varied
> experiences as well supporting any passions or interests - strewing
> was also important.-=-
>
> http://sandradodd.com/strewing
>
> If he's not reading, find lots of things for him to do that don't
> involve reading and by the time he can read he'll have a huge
> vocabulary. That's how it went with Holly. She didn't read until
> she was 11, nearly 12 I think, but her second book was Stephen King.
> She didn't need any beginning readers. When it clicked, she zoomed.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Clint Stonebraker
http://thefearlessandjoyfullife.com/
http://www.clintstonebraker.com/
(770)740-8696

Sandra Dodd

-=-I didn't sign him into a
classroom or "sylvan" type of setting -=-

Paying for reading lessons is in the realm of classroom or Sylvan.
It's formal instruction, not natural learning.

-=-I am paying out of pocket for my dyslexic son to learn how to read
and it's costing me a fortune -=-

You can pay someone a fortune to try to teach him when he's not
ready, but for a million dollars you could pay for him to learn to read.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

It sounds like your son has a preconceived idea that he should be
reading right now. It's worth examining. Exactly why does he stress
so much about not being able to read? What are the outside stressors
that are causing him negative feelings? I doubt he came to those on
his own. I'm guessing if the tutoring isn't helping his reading, then
it isn't helping his emotional state either. Who is he comparing
himself to? If there is no basis for comparison than there is no
reason to feel badly not reading.

He may have asked for tutoring because it may have been the only
option presented to him. If you trust him to come to reading on his
own, he may in turn trust himself to come to reading on his own. If
you stop stressing out over it, it would help him to stop stressing
out over it. Reading to him is one of the best and most enjoyable
things you can do to help him. I'm sure a search of the archives will
give you lots of other ideas to.

I agree that the term dyslexia has no merit in unschooling. However,
not all agree. Even further, I tend to not use labels at all. But if
you must, I think saying he is dyslexic child sounds permanent and
judging. It sounds like you are saying that he is dyslexia, and that
the dyslexia owns him. But if you said he is a child who happens to
have dyslexia, it gives a whole new connotation.



--- In [email protected], "lparaujo2001"
<lparaujo2001@...> wrote:
>
> You think I should apologize for not trusting him? Wow. I love my
> son with all of my heart, and I really want the best for him. When
> he writes me notes and writes everything backwards, and when I read
> to him and he asks me why he can't read it, saying he wants to learn
> to read and that I do something to help him, what can I do as a
> parent? I try to do the best I can for him and read constantly to
> him as much as I can, but I'm frankly overwhelmed and I don't know
> how to teach someone to not read backwards. I'm not specialized in
> that area and I can't apologize for seeking help for him when it's
> something he wants and is requesting. Yeah, maybe you're suggestion
> is correct and I should take him out of his tutoring and I guess I'll
> just have to see what happens with time that everything will fall
> into place naturally as everything is a learning experience even
> writing on this board and learning different perspectives is an
> incredible mind opening experience. My main goal as his parent is
> that I simply don't want him stressing out, but I can't help feeling
> internally stressed seeing him unhappy, but I guess that's where my
> conflict is. I want to let things be and come naturally but when he
> seems so upset with himself, I want to help him in any way I can. I
> was simply seeking a perspective from a parent who has been in this
> situation. I will do research on the suggestions provided by Ms. Dodd
> as well as others who have posted to my post, which I appreciate and
> thank you in advance.
>
> Leticia
>
> --- In [email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn"
> <dezigna@> wrote:
> >
> > <<<< I have a 9 year-old dyslexic son who is
> > > really having an obvious difficult time in reading. >>>>
> >
> > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time.
> >
> > I suggest that you pull your 9 yo out of what ever reading program
> he is in
> > today, even if you can't get a refund. Not one single more class. I
> would go
> > so far as to apologise to him for not trusting him to come to
> reading on his
> > own terms, at his own pace. Let him know that it was your mistake,
> not his,
> > to put him into that class.
> >
> > Surely you know that we will tell you to let go of the label of
> dyslexic as
> > irrelevant to unschooling. Dyslexia is only relevant within a
> schooling
> > timetable. Reading at any age is only relevant withing a schooling
> > timetable.
> >
> > I don't think you are paying for your son to learn to read. You are
> paying
> > someone to engage in a daily (or whenever the lessons are) struggle
> with
> > your son, a daily message for him that there is something wrong
> with him.
> >
> > Just letting go of that fear, and being ready just to read to him
> whenever
> > he wants it, when you can, including quickly translating the
> message on the
> > computer screen of his game, will go a long way towards lifing some
> of your
> > stress. It will take a while, but eventually the "I'm
> stupid/reading sucks"
> > feelings he probably lives with in his heart will fade away. The
> experience
> > of unschoolers is that damage heals, and reading happens.
> >
> > Watching a child learning to read in their own way is fascinating.
> Is my
> > daughter dyslexic? I honestly don't know and couldn't care less.
> But she is
> > 9 in 9 days, and on her merry way to reading.
> >
> > Robyn L. Coburn
> > www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> > www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> >
>

Robyn L. Coburn

It didn't occur to me that I was accusing the OP of seeking an A. That was
not my intention and I'm sorry for that idea to be taken that way.

I only meant to suggest that no one was questioning the OP's love of her
children.

There are many ways where a parent believes they are showing love, many
actions that spring from the finest of motivations but many of those actions
are not moving towards unschooling.

What matters for the purpose of discussion here is whether a parent is
enacting unschooling principles, not whether they are feeling love. What
action will take us towards unschooling in any situation, and what might
lead us away?

I feel the most defensive when I am most wrong in my thinking. For me, that
desire to defend myself is a great starting point for some self-examination.


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

<<<> Robyn, I think you're implication that I'm looking for an "A"
> equaling "love" here is insulting. I didn't sign him into a
> classroom or "sylvan" type of setting and frankly I'm not interested
> and/or seeking into getting into a confrontational discussion. I'm
> not going to apologize for my feelings and/or for seeking advice from
> the large pool of unschooling parents. The few responses I have
> received have provided me with plenty of information. Thank you.>>>>

Nicole Willoughby

Ok Im sorry I havent read all of the replies . How old is your autistic child?

I have dyslexia and my 9 year old has signs of having dyslexia. I also have 7 seven year old severly autistic, non verbal son. .... an incredibly cute 5 year old daughter, who was born premature and according to her kindergarten teacher has issues with listening and following directions the first time lol .

As far as your dyslexic son. Ive seen many replies already that gave good advice.
My daughter is reading but has tons of trouble reading out loud and with writing and spelling . As she asks I spell things or write things down for her. When Im not sure if something is right I use tools like dictionary.com and spell checker on the computer. Ive seen her use these before after watching me use them.

I want to ask you to think about something and try something. There are illiterate adults and literacy programs for illiterate adults. These programs generaly get an adult reading within 3-4 months.

He is only 9 right? Can you try just making his life rich and full of fun stuff to do and stop the reading lessons. Dont mention reading just be with him. watch movies, go skateboard, tv shows, pokemon tournaments, dragon, con play world of warcraft or the x-box, whatever his intrests are go do it.

Dd and I sometimes play "reading vacation" we try to go throught our day without reading ..............its really hard to do lol.

If he asks you to read to him real to him same for spelling or writing for him.

Whats the worst thing that can happen after 9 years of no reading instruction??




Nicole

Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Harold & Melissa Ross

Hi,

First, a brief intro. I am a 2nd generation homeschooler of five
children ranging in ages 5-14. I was homeschooled with the traditional
method (Abeka, Bob Jones, Alpha Omega, etc.) and make my parents a bit
nervous by unschooling :) I joined this e-group recently and have
enjoyed reading the conversations. I esp. like Sandra's 'shoot from
the hip/straightforward' style of "talking". Ha, ha. She usually says
what I'm thinking, lol.

My 12 year old son didn't learn to read until 10ish but he knew easy
words like 'cat', 'hat', 'open', 'closed', 'mom', dad' and such before
that. He is dyslexic as is my husband. I did a little bit of
Alphaphonics and McGuffy's readers with our son when he was young but
not much. He just got too frustrated. He loves graphic novels (comic
book style) and there are so many of them these days on a variety of
subjects! They're not all about superheros, lol. My kids have checked
out graphic biographies on George Washington and Paul Revere for
example. He has a very good memory and memorizes a lot.

I have helped my husband learn to read and write better too. I knew
nothing about dyslexia 15 years ago other than people saw and wrote
letters and numbers backwards. I had no idea how help someone with
dyslexia. I had no idea my husband was dyslexic when I married him.
He didn't either. He was almost done with college and just thought he
was stupid in that area. So I taught myself all about it. I read
books, articles, websites, talked to people, etc. over the years and
have learned. I am still learning but along the way I have been able
to help my husband and son. Plus they have educated themselves more
about dyslexia so they can help themselves. One thing I learned last
year was using colored page protectors. Wish I had found that out at
the beginning, lol. Anyway, the point is, you CAN teach someone with
dyslexia. Don't use "I can't" as an excuse! I always tell my husband
and 12 year old that dyslexia is not an excuse, it just means they have
to work a little harder or different.

I also have a 7 year old son with Aspeager's (in the autism spectrum)
that takes up a lot of time and attention but is reading very well.
Never used Alphaphonics or any special reading program with him. He is
also excellent with numbers and remembering dates and details. Again,
nothing that I taught him. Our family works together to understand
autism and learn how we can help our 7 year old. It helps when the
other kids in the family are on board, imo.

I like what Lisa W. said about her son finding the "door to reading
books". I would suggest you find what interests your children and
spend your money in those areas :) Allow them to find their door, so
to speak. Also, accentuate the positive. Focus on your children's
strength's and natural inclinations.

My 12 year old son is a very talented artist and uses just about any
medium for his projects. We have a nice homeschool co-op in the next
town over with good art classes that I make sure we offer to him. He
loves the outdoors and natural science. He will read just about
anything related to art and nature on his own, even if he has
difficulty with the words because it interests him. This is his door.
He also likes audio books on a variety of subjects :)

My 7 year old son focuses intently on something for a few months and
then, after learning all he can on a subject, moves on to another one.
Lately it has been Mesopotamia/Babylon and before that it was owls,
specifically barn owls. There is no rhyme, reason or specific order
in his choosing but we have learned to go with the flow with him. He
likes to make books on whatever he's studying and uses copy paper
stapled together to draw and write. He dictates what he wants to say,
I write it down and he copies it. We go through a lot of packages of
copy paper and blue, black, red and green pens. A lot! I could
probably fill a whole room with all the books he's made. He will do
this for hours at a time some days. This is his door.

My job with these two and all the other children is to provide the
means, resources and time for them to explore the things that interest
them. I would encourage you to do the same and not worry too much.
Educate yourself on unschooling, dyslexia and such. Slow down and
enjoy your children and their interests during these years. They grow
up all too soon.

~~Melissa R.~~

Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Robyn L. Coburn wrote:

> It didn't occur to me that I was accusing the OP of seeking an A.
> That was
> not my intention and I'm sorry for that idea to be taken that way.

Robyn listed a few different things parents who love their children do
in the name of that love. Interesting that that one was singled out.

-pam

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:22 PM, lparaujo2001 wrote:

> You think I should apologize for not trusting him? Wow. I love my
> son with all of my heart

But sometimes our actions send a different -- sometimes opposite! --
message than what we intend. All the things Robyn mentioned are
things the parents are doing to their kids with a message of love.
The kids aren't getting that message though! The actions, to the
kids, are over riding the words. If the parent truly meant the words,
the kids feel, they wouldn't be doing the actions.

How many kids have been spanked with "I'm doing this because I love
you." And how many kids think, "No, you don't like or understand who
I am. That's why you're hitting me. If you loved me, you wouldn't be
hitting me."

Think about it this way: If your husband felt you had gourmet cook in
you because you enjoyed cooking and decided since you weren't moving
in that direction on your own, he started signing you up for cooking
classes and making you go, bringing home cooking books and videos,
how would you feel? Wouldn't it feel like he was watching and judging
you and you were coming up short in his eyes? Otherwise why would he
be trying to change you? No matter how well meaning he was, no matter
that he wanted the best for you, if he's pressuring you to be
something different than you are, his actions can't help but come
across as who you are isn't good enough and you're failing in his eyes.

> When
> he writes me notes and writes everything backwards,
>
This is very typical, especially with dyslexic kids. My daughter
wrote lots of stuff backwards too.

It does add an extra decoding step for some kids and so takes them a
bit longer to figure reading out. But, given time and no pressure,
they *do* figure it out.

> and when I read
> to him and he asks me why he can't read it,
>
The real, true answer is: he's not yet ready.

That's *not* the answer schools will give. That's *not* the answer
reading specialists (who will take your money) will give.

It's not that they're lying. It's that they have zero experience (<--
important! *zero* experience!) with kids who are allowed to read in
their own time. Not only don't they know what a child is like who is
given freedom to read, but they don't know that they don't know!

And, worse, they truly believe what they're doing causes a child to
read when really the primary factor is time and waiting until all the
brain areas needed for reading are fully mature.

In scientific experiments, it's important to have a control group: a
group that you do exactly the same things to *except* the special
thing you're testing. Without the control group, you can't know if
it's the special thing or some other factor.

For reading -- in fact for all of school -- there is no control
group. Reading instructors have no clue whether what they're doing is
actually working better than time in a print rich, encouraging
environment.

Unschoolers are the control group. We know, because our children do
demonstrate it, that reading instruction is not only unnecessary, in
some cases it can be harmful to the child's sense of self worth. The
child comes to believe they're failing at something mom believes they
can do. When the truth is, they just aren't ready.

What unschoolers do instead of instruction is read to them, answer
their questions, listen to books on tape, watch related movies,
provide access to things they want to read (video games and guides
have helped lots of unschooling kids but wouldn't even be on the
radar of reading instructors!) Whatever the child enjoys.

(None of those should be seen as necessary to reading. Those are all
just part of the chaos that kids pull order from. Follow your child's
lead in what he enjoys. Try other things out and drop them if he
doesn't like them.)


> saying he wants to learn
> to read and that I do something to help him, what can I do as a
> parent?
>


If he were six and couldn't ride a two wheeler after much trying, the
best and honest -- though frustrating! -- answer for a child is that
his body isn't ready and that it will be ready when it's ready.

It *is* frustrating. And lots of dyslexic and nondyslexic kids have
gone through wanting to read but can't when they want to. Time fixes
it. I wouldn't stop a child from trying, but I would make it known
his brain is getting ready but it just isn't there yet. And help him
think up lots of things he can do now but couldn't a year or two or 5
ago.

> I try to do the best I can for him and read constantly to
> him as much as I can, but I'm frankly overwhelmed and I don't know
> how to teach someone to not read backwards.
>

Because you can't. Really. He has to figure it out. It *sounds*
cruel, and would be if people knew some simple things to help, but
they don't. The easiest way for kids to learn to read is to give them
time in a supportive print rich environment. Help them be happy.
(Though we can't remove all unhappiness, we can be aware where we're
causing it. Kids can get frustrated and unhappy when they're trying
to master *anything*: a Lego creation, a skateboarding trick, a video
game level, making pie crust. But when they master it, the feeling of
having done it yourself is priceless :-)

The problem is, though, that nearly everyone believes we can teach
kids to read. Teachers are going through that motion all across the
world, putting children through their paces and by the end of the
first year, a predictable chunk of them are reading.

But given the same group who were raised in unschooling homes, the
results would be the same. Unschooled kids read on the same schedule
as schooled kids. The only difference is the naturally later readers
come to eventually read intact. They don't pick up the idea from
reading programs that there's something wrong with them.

The additional factor in your son's instance is that he too believes
he can be taught to read but that there's something wrong and just
needs to try harder. All the adults around him have been telling him
that in words and actions for years.

That's why an apology could help.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Here's another thing. Get him some clay or anything that can plastically
model up 3D shapes if he would like. Or do something he would like of that
nature which is meditative and calming. To take the focus off reading.

Like.... he could draw mandalas (which is anything drawn in the shape of a
circle). Someone suggested Tux Paint, a program (opensource.. free at
http://www.tuxpaint.org) which is great for making mandalas with as it can
take any shape with the mirroring feature and duplicate it. Someone
discovered (Maya, thanks!) that you can make mazes with that program,
something Karl would really love as he always goes first to the maze on the
backs of those kid coloring thingys at restaurants.

~Katherine



On 10/7/08, lparaujo2001 <lparaujo2001@...> wrote:
>
> You think I should apologize for not trusting him? Wow. I love my
> son with all of my heart, and I really want the best for him. When
> he writes me notes and writes everything backwards, and when I read
> to him and he asks me why he can't read it, saying he wants to learn
> to read and that I do something to help him, what can I do as a
> parent? I try to do the best I can for him and read constantly to
> him as much as I can, but I'm frankly overwhelmed and I don't know
> how to teach someone to not read backwards. I'm not specialized in
> that area and I can't apologize for seeking help for him when it's
> something he wants and is requesting. Yeah, maybe you're suggestion
> is correct and I should take him out of his tutoring and I guess I'll
> just have to see what happens with time that everything will fall
> into place naturally as everything is a learning experience even
> writing on this board and learning different perspectives is an
> incredible mind opening experience. My main goal as his parent is
> that I simply don't want him stressing out, but I can't help feeling
> internally stressed seeing him unhappy, but I guess that's where my
> conflict is. I want to let things be and come naturally but when he
> seems so upset with himself, I want to help him in any way I can. I
> was simply seeking a perspective from a parent who has been in this
> situation. I will do research on the suggestions provided by Ms. Dodd
> as well as others who have posted to my post, which I appreciate and
> thank you in advance.
>
> Leticia
>
> --- In [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Robyn L. Coburn"
> <dezigna@...> wrote:
> >
> > <<<< I have a 9 year-old dyslexic son who is
> > > really having an obvious difficult time in reading. >>>>
> >
> > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time.
> >
> > I suggest that you pull your 9 yo out of what ever reading program
> he is in
> > today, even if you can't get a refund. Not one single more class. I
> would go
> > so far as to apologise to him for not trusting him to come to
> reading on his
> > own terms, at his own pace. Let him know that it was your mistake,
> not his,
> > to put him into that class.
> >
> > Surely you know that we will tell you to let go of the label of
> dyslexic as
> > irrelevant to unschooling. Dyslexia is only relevant within a
> schooling
> > timetable. Reading at any age is only relevant withing a schooling
> > timetable.
> >
> > I don't think you are paying for your son to learn to read. You are
> paying
> > someone to engage in a daily (or whenever the lessons are) struggle
> with
> > your son, a daily message for him that there is something wrong
> with him.
> >
> > Just letting go of that fear, and being ready just to read to him
> whenever
> > he wants it, when you can, including quickly translating the
> message on the
> > computer screen of his game, will go a long way towards lifing some
> of your
> > stress. It will take a while, but eventually the "I'm
> stupid/reading sucks"
> > feelings he probably lives with in his heart will fade away. The
> experience
> > of unschoolers is that damage heals, and reading happens.
> >
> > Watching a child learning to read in their own way is fascinating.
> Is my
> > daughter dyslexic? I honestly don't know and couldn't care less.
> But she is
> > 9 in 9 days, and on her merry way to reading.
> >
> > Robyn L. Coburn
> > www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
> > www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Karl has quite a vocabulary and is very verbal. If I tried to make him
learn to read and used grade level stuff, I feel sure he could do it but it
would limit his time to do all the tons of things he's already doing and
increasing his understanding with all the time. It would limit some of that
wild vocabulary accumulation by presenting him with grade level stuff, and
sort of saying "here, this is all you're *supposed* to be able to know at
your age."

Unschooling is seeing the learning, then eventually knowing that the
learning is happening without looking, letting go of the focus on learning
and just living and breathing without thinking that our children are
learning. Knowing it. It takes time to come to that but start now, and
when just a little time has passed it will be less and less of a worry, and
then a little more time will pass and it'll be even less of a concern. One
day, you'll turn around and wonder why you ever worried about it. You'll
just know.

So basically, unschooling is learning that our kids are learning. It's like
learning to ride a bike.

~Katherine





On 10/7/08, Michael Stonebraker <michaelstonebraker@...> wrote:
>
> I agree with this. My daughter, who is nine, isn't reading but her
> vocabulary is amazing. Shelby's ability to clearly communicate is a
> trait that I admire. The "code" is beginning to unravel for her but
> she certainly doesn't feel any pressure. She has a lot of things she
> loves.
>
> Clint
> On Oct 7, 2008, at 8:43 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> > -=-I would say that total unschooling was the key to helping our
> > (dyslexic) son. We gave him many opportunities for rich and varied
> > experiences as well supporting any passions or interests - strewing
> > was also important.-=-
> >
> > http://sandradodd.com/strewing
> >
> > If he's not reading, find lots of things for him to do that don't
> > involve reading and by the time he can read he'll have a huge
> > vocabulary. That's how it went with Holly. She didn't read until
> > she was 11, nearly 12 I think, but her second book was Stephen King.
> > She didn't need any beginning readers. When it clicked, she zoomed.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Clint Stonebraker
> http://thefearlessandjoyfullife.com/
> http://www.clintstonebraker.com/
> (770)740-8696
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

> and when I read
> to him and he asks me why he can't read it,

I've already gone through Karl's pain over this and he's only 5. Some kid
twice his age, who can't read either, called Karl a baby because he can't
read.

One of the things I did is to tell Karl that he *is* reading already, and
that when he is finished learning it will be just everybody else who learns
to read. A few days later it came back up and I showed him the words he has
been recognizing for a while now (of course I didn't mention the words he
knows are always in a familiar context .. like STOP on traffic signs or
game prompt words like "play" "quit" "yes" "no" "instructions").

Show him the successful parts of his reading that he already is doing and
reassure him that with time it will all come. And smile reassuringly as you
reassure yourself of the same thing at the same time.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I have 2 sisters and a nephew who struggled with dyslexia. They all
can read very well.. books worth of reading. They all still think of
themselves as not very good readers. One is a school at home student
(nephew), one is a homeschooling mom (his mom), one is a preschool
teacher and an artist and a cake decorator and a floral designer and
mother of 3 to boot *and* is back in college too.

~Katherine



On 10/8/08, k <katherand@...> wrote:
> > and when I read
> > to him and he asks me why he can't read it,
>
> I've already gone through Karl's pain over this and he's only 5. Some kid
> twice his age, who can't read either, called Karl a baby because he can't
> read.
>
> One of the things I did is to tell Karl that he *is* reading already, and
> that when he is finished learning it will be just everybody else who learns
> to read. A few days later it came back up and I showed him the words he has
> been recognizing for a while now (of course I didn't mention the words he
> knows are always in a familiar context .. like STOP on traffic signs or
> game prompt words like "play" "quit" "yes" "no" "instructions").
>
> Show him the successful parts of his reading that he already is doing and
> reassure him that with time it will all come. And smile reassuringly as you
> reassure yourself of the same thing at the same time.
>
> ~Katherine
>

Sandra Dodd

Joyce wrote this.
-=-The problem is, though, that nearly everyone believes we can teach
kids to read. Teachers are going through that motion all across the
world, putting children through their paces and by the end of the
first year, a predictable chunk of them are reading.

-=-But given the same group who were raised in unschooling homes, the
results would be the same. Unschooled kids read on the same schedule
as schooled kids.-=-



I don't know if I'm disagreeing, but something there seems wrong. We
probably agree and I'm quibbling about words, and probably mostly the
word "reading."

I spent a year being a reading teacher. I wasn't specially trained,
but the first year I taught they put me in as the remedial reading
teacher. It was legal for one year without me being certified. The
principal told me I needed to go back and start getting certified.
I said no, I wasn't going back to school that summer (I was 21 and
had been in school with summers since I was 14, having taken only one
summer off the year I turned 18). I told him I was certified to
teach English and he needed to put me in a language arts position, so
he did. Those kids were 12, or should've been, but there were
several boys in there who turned 14 that year because they had failed
first or second grade. Poor guys! They were sweet. They were
hopeful. They were crushed, though, and had been being told for six
or seven years that they couldn't read. They were just resigned to
that "fact." It was criminal. That was 1975, but it's happening
worse than ever.

What I wanted to say was that I think unschooled kids read later than
schooled kids in many cases, but our kids are REALLY reading, like
people, not doing school-tricks so teachers can give them good grades
in reading so schools can meet their test-score quotas, maintain
their progress rates and curves and stats.

While kids at school are being pressed and bullied and bribed to
read, our kids are learning way more than those kids would be
capable of reading about, and when unschooled kids learn to read
naturally they do it filled with peace and a sense of accomplishment
and real purposes in mind. Reading means they can use YouTube
better, and play video games better, and find out which movies are
playing. They read like adults (not meaning "at a college level,"
because all that is bogus too--it has to do with the lengths of words
and sentences and of the odd way in which tests are calibrated)--they
read in the real world, not in "readers" carefully chosen for
simplicity, short words, and unnaturally short sentences.

I don't think "the same schedule as schooled kids" is necessarily
true, and I'm pretty sure it's not desirable.

But here's the deal: Some kids, school or no school, read at three
and four. And schools don't like it one bit. They criticize the
parents for it, because those kids are trouble in school. They're
bored and critical and cause unrest. But one advantage is they raise
the average reading level and so there is the appearance that the
school taught them to read. Schools and teachers took tons of credit
for things I learned outside of school. I didn't read until I was
six, so they took full credit for that! Most kids in school don't
become fluent readers until they're nine or ten. That is the same
with unschoolers. Some kids in school (many) still aren't fluent
readers at ten, and they get shunted into classes that don't lead to
"college bound" or more academic fields. And the worst thing is that
the school itself caused some of the problem, or spotlighted it and
made it worse.

So to Joyce's clear statement, I add six paragraphs of "yes,
but..." (Sorry.)



Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Like.... he could draw mandalas (which is anything drawn in the
shape of a
circle).-=-



He could color. At the mall here now there's a stand with "Adult
coloring books," and they're mandala patterns. There have been some
for a long time through Dover coloring books, and there's a Japanese
company that does mazes and dot-to-dot and pattern art for coloring.



Here are some that are printable

http://www.coloringcastle.com/mandala_coloring_pages.html

but maybe not great for kids to color.



http://www.papermandalas.com/mandalas.htm



if you google it you can find others to print for free. Buying
coloring books might get nicer paper, but loose pages are easier than
books, for something you're going to turn around anyway.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am still learning but along the way I have been able
to help my husband and son. Plus they have educated themselves more
about dyslexia so they can help themselves.-=-

My husband knew about dyslexia and that didn't help.

My son didn't have any idea, and his reading and writing are both WAY
better than my public schooled, college educated husband.

When the goal is learning to read in one's own way, learning about
dyslexia isn't so great a plan.

This is not good advice for helping people understand unschooling
better:

-=- Anyway, the point is, you CAN teach someone with dyslexia. Don't
use "I can't" as an excuse! I always tell my husband and 12 year old
that dyslexia is not an excuse, it just means they have to work a
little harder or different.-=-

My kids didn't have to "work" at all to learn to read. it came to
them naturally. Teaching people isn't part of the unschooling this
list exists to promote.

-=-I like what Lisa W. said about her son finding the "door to
reading books". I would suggest you find what interests your children
and spend your money in those areas :) Allow them to find their door,
so to speak. Also, accentuate the positive. Focus on your children's
strength's and natural inclinations.-=-

I agree that providing kids with lots of whatever they're interested
in is good. In natural-learning terms, though, there isn't a door to
reading because reading isn't in another room or another place. It's
all around us and kids will figure it out in their own way, in their
own time, not from any one source/door.

-=-He dictates what he wants to say,

I write it down and he copies it. We go through a lot of packages of
copy paper and blue, black, red and green pens. A lot! I could
probably fill a whole room with all the books he's made. He will do
this for hours at a time some days. This is his door.-=-

Things like that are very cool. Holly used to make books, too, in
her own writing, before she could read. I would either write it all
down, or spell each word to her as she called them out. It wasn't a
door. It was the creation of books. It, along with every single
other thing in her life, led her to writing and reading.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-One of the things I did is to tell Karl that he *is* reading
already, and
that when he is finished learning it will be just everybody else who
learns
to read.-=-

I think the problem with telling a child he can read, when he looks
at words and they're just marks, is that you mislead him about his
own knowledge of what reading is.

My mom used to tell me I wasn't hungry when I was. It didn't help the
relationship.

Many parents tell a kid "YES YOU CAN" when the kid says "I can't do
this." It's not very helpful.

-=-and that when he is finished learning...-=-

I still come across words I hadn't known before. I don't know that
people "finish learning" (to read or anything else).

Maybe saying that would be good. Tell him you come across words you
haven't seen before, and some you can sound out and some you might
have to look up or ask about.

To say "This is reading" about a few dozen scattered short words
might be less helpful than it sounds. It's "supportive," but is it
informative?



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>Some kids in school (many) still aren't fluent
>>>readers at ten, and they get shunted into classes that don't lead to
>>>"college bound" or more academic fields. And the worst thing is that
>>>the school itself caused some of the problem, or spotlighted it and
>>>made it worse.

Here's something else too. I was reading very well --on my own for
pleasure-- books that would have been considered out of my range, starting
in 5th grade... like all the Brontes, Jane Austens and anything Emily
Dickinson. For me, it was the equivalent of angst ridden yum, like grunge
was when I was in college. School placed me in remedial reading and made
noises about putting me in special ed because I have profound hearing loss.
Because I am nuts for words and learned very early to disrespect school
authorities and their test results, my reading comprehension tested low all
through high school. I used the broadest sense and strrrrretched the
meanings of words to the nth degree. I didn't even bother to learn what
teachers wanted me to do. I felt it was all hoop jumping.

However because I was a student in school, the judgment of the great Tests
still influenced my path. I didn't get the privilege of signing up for
college bound classes. ;) Ah well. I have a BA in art, which I don't
consider to be an academic field anyway. Being highly hands on, dense with
meaning and symbolism of countless types. You could make art be academic if
you wanted to but WHY? It's abundantly flexible and demands a great deal of
devotion, attention and motivation. That's enough, more than plenty.

My sister who got in all the college bound classes and did exactly what the
teachers wanted her to do and studied hard and took it all very seriously
(unlike me) got an associated degree, which I feel is as valuable as what I
got. She was a paralegal for a number of years before she moved on to
motherhood.

~Katherine


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