Karen Hsu

My almost 5 year old son likes to play with mulch, gravel and rocks. I try
to find ways for him to do that on our own (playing with mulch in our yard,
going somewhere to throw rocks), and he also likes to do it when we're out
and about. It makes me uncomfortable, and I'm hoping that this list can
help me clarify my thoughts.

Here is an example from today - we went to a cool nature and science center,
where outside they have wildlife that was brought to the center for
rehabilitation. It's an enclosed area with wire cages, enclosures and a
small pond. There is also a small area that is all gravel with a couple of
park benches. As soon as he saw the gravel he went over and knelt down to
play with it. Then he stood up and started dropping it to the ground, and
doing a little bit of throwing. I told him it wasn't ok to throw the
gravel.... and he asked why because there weren't any people around. He
even suggested that he throw it towards the fence and away from the path
where people might be.

I had a hard time answering the why ... usually if we're at the park and he
wants to throw mulch, I find a secluded spot for him to throw it into a
pile. Or if we're the only ones there we have a mulch fight.

So, is it ok for a kid to throw gravel at a public place? If not, how would
you explain it to a four or five year old? I ended up telling him that it's
not our gravel, and that they probably want it to look nice for other people
when they come there. Am I being uptight about this?

--
Karen
http://houseofhsus.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Three Mommies

Ryan (5) loves to throw gravel. I used to get upset when he did it in a
public place. Now I just remind him that most people don't like gravel
thrown at them and that people like to walk on it so throwing at the path is
cool. We take turns seeing how much gravel we can displace when we aim at
the path. When that game is over, we make a game of kicking the gravel into
the holes we've made.

That said, I still feel a little uncomfortable when other adults are around
because I feel like they disapprove of this. I try to remind myself that
this my issue and that if we leave te path the way we found it, there's no
harm in playing. If there are too many people and we're blockign the path, I
ask him if we can wait until the people have passed. This usually works just
fine. Often, it leads us to other fun games "else place" as Ryan calls it.
*grin*

Peace,
Jean Elizabeth

http://3mommies.blogpsot.com

On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Karen Hsu <kcbhsu@...> wrote:

> My almost 5 year old son likes to play with mulch, gravel and rocks. I
> try
> to find ways for him to do that on our own (playing with mulch in our yard,
> going somewhere to throw rocks), and he also likes to do it when we're out
> and about. It makes me uncomfortable, and I'm hoping that this list can
> help me clarify my thoughts.
>
> Here is an example from today - we went to a cool nature and science
> center,
> where outside they have wildlife that was brought to the center for
> rehabilitation. It's an enclosed area with wire cages, enclosures and a
> small pond. There is also a small area that is all gravel with a couple of
> park benches. As soon as he saw the gravel he went over and knelt down to
> play with it. Then he stood up and started dropping it to the ground, and
> doing a little bit of throwing. I told him it wasn't ok to throw the
> gravel.... and he asked why because there weren't any people around. He
> even suggested that he throw it towards the fence and away from the path
> where people might be.
>
> I had a hard time answering the why ... usually if we're at the park and he
> wants to throw mulch, I find a secluded spot for him to throw it into a
> pile. Or if we're the only ones there we have a mulch fight.
>
> So, is it ok for a kid to throw gravel at a public place? If not, how would
> you explain it to a four or five year old? I ended up telling him that it's
> not our gravel, and that they probably want it to look nice for other
> people
> when they come there. Am I being uptight about this?
>
> --
> Karen
> http://houseofhsus.blogspot.com/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<> So, is it ok for a kid to throw gravel at a public place? If not, how
would
> you explain it to a four or five year old? I ended up telling him that
> it's
> not our gravel, and that they probably want it to look nice for other
> people
> when they come there. Am I being uptight about this? >>>

I personally don't think you are being uptight. I would prevent Jayn from
throwing gravel in that situation. Probably not from just letting it fall
through her fingers though - depending on how loud it became (see below).

Gravel costs money. If it were meant for the path, then someone else would
end up having to gather any that was off the path and return it, so throwing
towards the fence might be problematic in that way (not really having a
vision in my mind of the whole landscape). Stepping onto grass and finding
sharp bits of gravel hiding in it is never pleasant.

In this particular case, any that ended up by accident in the wrong animal's
enclosure could be problem for the critter too for all we know. Also with
nervous and sick wild animals, the noise of the gravel hitting the fence or
ground could be alarming and harmful to their health.

One thing that I have said to Jayn is that I'd rather she not do whatever it
was because some one from the place would be likely to become alarmed and
come up and be stern with her about it. I would say that I could see that
she was doing no harm, but other people might not be able to do so, and that
they might become worried. I sometimes phrase it as a thing that a lot of
adults are made nervous by kids who appear to be out of control even when
they really aren't. I have also used the phrase, "This isn't the right place
for this."

I think more appropriate places and safe throwing games might be in order.
Sometimes the urge to throw is very strong. At the Space Center Houston they
have a really cool throwing game inside an enclosure with quite heavy (so
they will arc in the air) but still soft dense foam balls and a number of
space targets. The kids get to throw the balls by hand in one part, and use
air powered (I think I am remembering right) guns to shoot them at the space
stuff in another. It was hugely popular and constantly full the whole time
we were there.


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

I haven't seen other responses yet.

-=-So, is it ok for a kid to throw gravel at a public place? If not,
how would
you explain it to a four or five year old? I ended up telling him
that it's
not our gravel, and that they probably want it to look nice for other
people
when they come there. Am I being uptight about this?-=-



Not uptight enough.

People paid money for that gravel and mulch, and they paid people to
put it just so, and they pay people to maintain it. It's not yours.



Sometimes when you can't figure out what's good or right, go a few
steps further, so you can see the principle instead of the rule.

Would it be okay for him to carve his name in the wood at a public
place?

Would it be okay for him to break windows in a public place?

Go out into nature somewhere where there are rocks and let him throw
them into a lake or down a hole or small rocks at a big rock or
something, if it's really public land and he's not disturbing
wildlife and that.

Depending on your yard and your house, maybe there's place where he
could throw handfuls of mud onto a wall or a wooden fence and you
could hose it off later.

If you can't explain something to a four or five year old, just say
no. Part of being partners, and being on the same team, is that what
he does you're dong too. It's not okay for a mother and child to be
doing something others don't want them to do (namely, the owners or
managers of a place) and for the mom to shrug wide-eyed and point to
the kid and say "He did it."

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rebekah byson

I think that a 4 yo old would have some difficulty distinguishing when
throwing and playing was appropriate and when it's best to leave the
landscaping alone.
My 5 yo old plays with gravel and mulch. We have our yard set up so that he
can play and explore as much as possible these and other substances without
too much concern about yard appearances. The problem occurs at out in-laws
house where the plants are more hands off and appearance reigns supreme.
They also share a long drive with three other residents (older...no kids)
and they pool funds to re-gravel the drive. My FIL can get pretty uptight
when the gravel gets trhown into the grass or handfuls of it get tossed into
the hollow tree...another fave game. We live a balancing act of allowing
some play and forbidding others while we are there. My MIL is less concerned
about the gravel but gets bothered with the mulch being thrown into the yard
or into the dog's water dish. There are some plants and bushes in some areas
of the yard that she cares less about than others and that as well makes for
some confusion. She is also more lenient with the younger grandkids than my
son...like now at 5 he should just suddenly have some yard care
sensibilities. :)

Anyway my point of detailing this is that keep in mind that all these social
rules about yard property can be somewhat confusing for children...it's best
to set up as much freedom in your own home and yard and take the kids to
parks and outdoor places that are kid- explorers friendly and then explain
how there are certain public places where it is not expected that people
would play with the plants etc.
Bekah

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:00 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> I haven't seen other responses yet.
>
> -=-So, is it ok for a kid to throw gravel at a public place? If not,
> how would
> you explain it to a four or five year old? I ended up telling him
> that it's
> not our gravel, and that they probably want it to look nice for other
> people
> when they come there. Am I being uptight about this?-=-
>
> Not uptight enough.
>
> People paid money for that gravel and mulch, and they paid people to
> put it just so, and they pay people to maintain it. It's not yours.
>
> Sometimes when you can't figure out what's good or right, go a few
> steps further, so you can see the principle instead of the rule.
>
> Would it be okay for him to carve his name in the wood at a public
> place?
>
> Would it be okay for him to break windows in a public place?
>
> Go out into nature somewhere where there are rocks and let him throw
> them into a lake or down a hole or small rocks at a big rock or
> something, if it's really public land and he's not disturbing
> wildlife and that.
>
> Depending on your yard and your house, maybe there's place where he
> could throw handfuls of mud onto a wall or a wooden fence and you
> could hose it off later.
>
> If you can't explain something to a four or five year old, just say
> no. Part of being partners, and being on the same team, is that what
> he does you're dong too. It's not okay for a mother and child to be
> doing something others don't want them to do (namely, the owners or
> managers of a place) and for the mom to shrug wide-eyed and point to
> the kid and say "He did it."
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-The problem occurs at out in-laws
house where the plants are more hands off and appearance reigns supreme.
They also share a long drive with three other residents (older...no
kids)
and they pool funds to re-gravel the drive. My FIL can get pretty
uptight
when the gravel gets trhown into the grass or handfuls of it get
tossed into
the hollow tree...another fave game. We live a balancing act of allowing
some play and forbidding others while we are there.-=-



Take other things for him to play with when he's there, or go to a
park with a playground (you and the inlaws) or a kid-food place with
a playground.

I'm on your father-in-law's side, about throwing gravel into grass.

-=-She is also more lenient with the younger grandkids than my
son...like now at 5 he should just suddenly have some yard care
sensibilities. :)-=-

They don't need yard care sensibilities. They need to only throw
things you own and let them throw, or that nobody owns and won't hurt
to throw.

I live surrounded by Many Rocks, in New Mexico. It's bad for them to
be on paved roads. They break windshields. The problems can be
beyond just the danger to lawnmowers and those who are around while
lawnmowers are running, although that alone might be reason enough to
just tell kids no.

-=-all these social rules about yard property can be somewhat
confusing for children-=-

I'm confused myself, when you put it that way. I don't think my
right to have my yard the way I leave it is "a social rule." It has
to do with ownership, privacy and rights. And if I were in charge
of the landscaping for a store or office or city park, it wouldn't be
okay for people to mix and match the rocks and mulch there either.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Hsu

This discussion is good for me. Here are the things that are sticking out:

>>And if I were in charge of the landscaping for a store or office or city
park, it wouldn't be
>>okay for people to mix and match the rocks and mulch there either.

It's usually just parks, but there are other places where he likes to play
with this stuff, and while I keep mulch with mulch, rock with rock, etc, I'm
wondering if it's just overall disrespectful to touch other people's stuff
like that. And is it the touching, the letting it run through his fingers,
or the throwing that is really disrespectful. Or all of it? I try to find
a reason not to throw, and if it's staying with the mulch, and it's not
creating a big hole or empty spot, and it's not getting on a building, or
other people, or the sidewalk, I usually can't identify a reason, so I don't
stop it. I cringe to think about some one or two of the things that I've
allowed. But the best reason I can think of is usually "it bothers people
to see rocks/mulch being throw". Which leads me to this ....

>> If you can't explain something to a four or five year old, just say no.

I try really hard to not arbitrarily so no to things. Since discovering and
earning and thinking about unschooling I try to have an internal dialogue
that starts with "why not?", and examine the answers that I give myself to
see if they're arbitrary or real, or to see if I can find another way to
meet his needs. In this situation with the gravel or mulch it wouldn't be
arbitrary, but I have a hard time with just saying no without a reason I can
explain. I guess I need to work on being ok with that, or with finding
better ways to articulate things to him.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

Say, "There is good reason for not doing that here, but I have to
think more about how to explain it to you."

-pam

On Oct 6, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Karen Hsu wrote:

> I have a hard time with just saying no without a reason I can
> explain. I guess I need to work on being ok with that, or with
> finding
> better ways to articulate things to him.

Sandra Dodd

-=-It's usually just parks, but there are other places where he likes
to play
with this stuff, -=-

Albuquerque has parks within walking distance in almost every
neighborhood build from about the 1920's (maybe longer). Each
housing developer has to provide a park, and then the city maintains
them.

Pretty much, every tree has a well with chipped wood, and the
playgrounds have sand. All that costs money and is important because
we're in the desert. Trees can die if they're not watered, and the
wood chips help hold the water around the tree roots. If I were
with a child who wanted to go through things like that, I would
explain what they were for, just as I just explained it here (or more
briefly).

Some of the rocks I gave away at the Albuquerque conference during
the Flow talk came from near the credit union across from my house.
To atone for my lifting of a handful of rocks, I also took trash out
and pulled goat heads up. When Keith's motorcycle needed parts and I
was waiting in the parking lot at Honeywell, I looked through the
rocks they had around trees in the parking lot. I earned my little
basket of rocks by putting rocks back into the enclosures that had
been kicked out into the parking lot, and I picked up trash while I
was walking around there, too.

It's practicality and consideration and "leave the site cleaner than
you found it," which I heard often in Girl Scouts and the Society for
Creative Anachronism, and which my kids have done in public parks
too--clean up other people's stuff in casual ways.



-=-I'm wondering if it's just overall disrespectful to touch other
people's stuff like that. And is it the touching, the letting it run
through his fingers, or the throwing that is really disrespectful. Or
all of it?-=-

I think it depends on the stuff. Running fingers through gravel but
not removing it seems fine. Running hands through the beans or
mushrooms at the grocery store, not so good. :-)

An outdoors iron banister seems peachy to touch and even maybe climb
on. A plastic greenhouse, not so much.

Principles will work better than rules.

-=->> If you can't explain something to a four or five year old, just
say no.

-=-I have a hard time with just saying no without a reason I can
explain. -=-

Does it harm anything? Does it create a danger? (I'd say yes to
both, on putting gravel in the grass.)

Maybe if you can't figure out whether something is okay or not, you
could think of whether you would do it too. If you wouldn't, why?
If it's something you would feel uncomfortable about doing, it might
be good to keep everyone on your team from doing it too (generally
speaking).

Sandra






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Bea

>
> Maybe if you can't figure out whether something is okay or not, you
> could think of whether you would do it too. If you wouldn't, why?
> If it's something you would feel uncomfortable about doing, it might
> be good to keep everyone on your team from doing it too (generally
> speaking).
>

I have a question related to that, about something that happened about
a year ago (my daughter was 26 months at the time I think.)

We were staying with friends (good friends of dh, I don't know them
very well) who had a 3 year old daughter. It was in winter and their
apartment was very hot for us (we heat less than they do.) Dd has
always had a penchant for being naked, and since the apartment was too
hot for her to begin with, she wanted to be naked a lot, but our
friends were very uncomfortable with that (not because of potty
issues, she was already using a potty without accidents.) Dh and I
tried to get at least underwear on dd, and also tried to get her out
of the apartment as much as possible, but there were a few times when
she was naked, and I wonder what I should have done... Forced clothes
on her? Moved to a hotel room? (We stayed 3 nights with those friends.)

Another time (dd was about 20 months old at the time) we stayed with
relatives of dh, and there were a lot of things in the apartment that
were very appealing to dd but that they felt uncomfortable with her
touching. (They have a 7 year old daughter, they are not elderly
people.) I placed some items out of reach (things that were easily
put back in place), and some I let her touch with me closely
supervising (things that weren't obviously breakable.) But they were
obviously displeased with my attitude: they thought I should just tell
her "no", and that she should have obeyed... I wonder now, should I
have just said "no", and handled the meltdown after too many nos?
(what's the plural of no?)

These types of situations make me extremely uncomfortable (we used to
live in Europe, where both dh are from, and traveled a lot to visit
friends and relatives), and I have told dh that from now on when we
travel I want to stay in hotel rooms and not with friends or relatives
at whose house I don't feel comfortable bringing dd. Is that a good
way to go about that?


Bea

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<> These types of situations make me extremely uncomfortable (we used to
> live in Europe, where both dh are from, and traveled a lot to visit
> friends and relatives), and I have told dh that from now on when we
> travel I want to stay in hotel rooms and not with friends or relatives
> at whose house I don't feel comfortable bringing dd. Is that a good
> way to go about that?>>>>

That's what I would have done when Jayn was small. Still would if I felt
uncomfortable. Why visit if you feel uncomfortable instead of joyful? Plus
James likes privacy and Jayn really enjoys hotels - she has a taste for
luxury I think and going to the ice machine is one of her favorite things to
do.

I'm looking forward to the day when I have a home that is big enough to
invite people to stay. I hope my guests always feel utterly comfortable and
at home and relaxed.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Bea

--- In [email protected], "Bea" <bmantovani@...> wrote:

>(we used to live in Europe, where both dh are from,

I meant to write "where both dh and I are from", I do not have 2
husbands. lol


Bea

Sandra Dodd

-=-I wonder now, should I
have just said "no", and handled the meltdown after too many nos?
(what's the plural of no?) -=-

Those aren't the only two choices. You could find something cool for
her to wear, something flowy and fancy maybe. It's fine and good
(and necessary in many ways) to tell kids they can only go naked at
home when there's no company. There really are laws, and they do
apply to unschoolers just as much as to anyone else.



-=-I have told dh that from now on when we travel I want to stay in
hotel rooms and not with friends or relatives at whose house I don't
feel comfortable bringing dd. Is that a good way to go about that?-=-

It's one way, but you're still only giving yourself two choices--
stay where you're uncomfortable, or get a hotel room.

Part of being your child's partner is helping her learn how to be in
the world, how to live comfortably and fully and considerately and
legally. ;-)

Twisting and turning to get away from the world can work sometimes
(like my kids never went to school, for instance) but you can't twist
yourself right off the planet or out of the present year. Help her
adapt to situations when you can. If you can't, *then* run away and
get a hotel room. But getting a room and not trying to help her cope
and blend isn't the best option.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bea

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
> Twisting and turning to get away from the world can work sometimes
> (like my kids never went to school, for instance) but you can't twist
> yourself right off the planet or out of the present year. Help her
> adapt to situations when you can. If you can't, *then* run away and
> get a hotel room. But getting a room and not trying to help her cope
> and blend isn't the best option.
>


Okay, I get that, and I do try to help her adapt and blend (except in
those situations when I'm so overwhelmed that I can't cope myself.)
But I'm also wondering if it's okay to sometimes just wait to expose
her to certain kind of situations when I know we have trouble, like
until next year when she's bigger and understands things better, for
example. I mean, there are times when it's appropriate to just wait
and try again when she'll be more mature developmentally, right?

Bea

Sandra Dodd

-=-But I'm also wondering if it's okay to sometimes just wait to expose
her to certain kind of situations when I know we have trouble, like
until next year when she's bigger and understands things better, for
example. I mean, there are times when it's appropriate to just wait
and try again when she'll be more mature developmentally, right? -=-



Absolutely. And some people's houses just aren't set up for toddlers
or young children at all. And some people don't like little kids.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

 I mean, there are times when it's appropriate to just wait
and try again when she'll be more mature developmentally, right?
 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Absolutely. When my son Naruto could not cope with something I avoided that as much as possible.
Last year when Sandra came to talk in Minnesota she was just over one hour and forty minutes away from where I live. My than 20 month old dd Gigi could not stand 20 minutes of a car ride. I really wanted to go hear Sandra talk and meet her. I could not leave her home cause she did not separate for more than an hour or so and was still nursing a lot ( still is). So I stayed home. As much as I wanted to go it would have been a nightmare for her and me in the car. My husband was super busy that day to come with us and help on the road.
When my son could not cope with going to visit people's homes at 2 years old ( he wanted to touch things and jump on furniture) I did not go. Now at 6 he is super polite on other peoples homes and understands that he can jump on our couch ( a $20 couch from goodwill) but not on others. He takes his shoes of when he visits people in the entrance, He is great but at 2 it was too much for him.




Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 














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