"Support" vs. discussion
Sandra Dodd
I was reading e-mail from Pam Sorooshian about the difference between
philosophical discussion and support, and how some people can't seem
to understand the difference.
Holly came in to talk to me about a project she's working on. I had
helped her brainstorm yesterday, and printed some things out for her
she might use as a basis for some of the art. While we were
talking, I was taking notes on a napkin and when I showed them to her
later she said "these are really good!" and I said "Well I'm a
writer, so I wrote some stuff." It was happy and busy and fun.
So when Holly came in today to talk about her progress, she told me
what she had just done, and I nodded and kept looking at her, and she
said something like "You're my writer, so I need you to help me say
this better."
"Oh! I thought was being your mom. 'Okay, dear,'" I said in an
approving, supportive mom-way.
And in the sing-songiest of poodle voices, Holly imitated a
supportive mom, and she said "That's a good iDEEa! Follow your dreams."
It was hilarious and I wrote it down. At sixteen she knows what
moms can do to "be supportive" in a way that doesn't really help.
In writing that down, I'm aware that some people might read this and
say that I said not to tell a kid her idea is good, and not to
encourage a child to follow her dreams.
If anyone is tempted to think that way, please consider that few
things in the world are all or nothing. If all a parent does is
voice pre-spoken platitudes, it won't be as helpful as if real words
are spoken. If you use a phrase others have used, use it with
awareness and intent, for a good and specific reason.
There are times to say "You know John better than the coach does,"
but that's not to say it's very helpful to tell an unseen, unknown
mom "You know your child better than anyone." First, it might not be
true. Second, she might be in the midst of a very neglectful or
clueless or delusional season, and it can't help for a stranger, by e-
mail, to say "You're a great mom and your child is lucky to have you."
I'm willing to support people in their quest to understand natural
learning and mindful parenting, but that support involves helping
them understand the principles behind why it works, and finding ways
to adapt their lives in ways that will help it flourish in their
families.
Sandra
philosophical discussion and support, and how some people can't seem
to understand the difference.
Holly came in to talk to me about a project she's working on. I had
helped her brainstorm yesterday, and printed some things out for her
she might use as a basis for some of the art. While we were
talking, I was taking notes on a napkin and when I showed them to her
later she said "these are really good!" and I said "Well I'm a
writer, so I wrote some stuff." It was happy and busy and fun.
So when Holly came in today to talk about her progress, she told me
what she had just done, and I nodded and kept looking at her, and she
said something like "You're my writer, so I need you to help me say
this better."
"Oh! I thought was being your mom. 'Okay, dear,'" I said in an
approving, supportive mom-way.
And in the sing-songiest of poodle voices, Holly imitated a
supportive mom, and she said "That's a good iDEEa! Follow your dreams."
It was hilarious and I wrote it down. At sixteen she knows what
moms can do to "be supportive" in a way that doesn't really help.
In writing that down, I'm aware that some people might read this and
say that I said not to tell a kid her idea is good, and not to
encourage a child to follow her dreams.
If anyone is tempted to think that way, please consider that few
things in the world are all or nothing. If all a parent does is
voice pre-spoken platitudes, it won't be as helpful as if real words
are spoken. If you use a phrase others have used, use it with
awareness and intent, for a good and specific reason.
There are times to say "You know John better than the coach does,"
but that's not to say it's very helpful to tell an unseen, unknown
mom "You know your child better than anyone." First, it might not be
true. Second, she might be in the midst of a very neglectful or
clueless or delusional season, and it can't help for a stranger, by e-
mail, to say "You're a great mom and your child is lucky to have you."
I'm willing to support people in their quest to understand natural
learning and mindful parenting, but that support involves helping
them understand the principles behind why it works, and finding ways
to adapt their lives in ways that will help it flourish in their
families.
Sandra
Rebecca
I'm a member of an online parenting group where some of the forums
have recently been labeled "a safe place for discussion...not for
debate." I don't understand how you can have discussion without
disagreement that could be viewed as debate. Of course raising that
question there could open a debate. If I wasn't interested in
learning and growing, then perhaps I would be content to only receive
virtual pats on the back "support." I choose to be challenged, so I
prefer to spend time on lists like this one.
Rebecca
have recently been labeled "a safe place for discussion...not for
debate." I don't understand how you can have discussion without
disagreement that could be viewed as debate. Of course raising that
question there could open a debate. If I wasn't interested in
learning and growing, then perhaps I would be content to only receive
virtual pats on the back "support." I choose to be challenged, so I
prefer to spend time on lists like this one.
Rebecca
Kim H
,<<It was hilarious and I wrote it down. At sixteen she knows what
moms can do to "be supportive" in a way that doesn't really help.>>
Lewi, at 8, understands this too. It amazes me, sometimes, how much our children take in at an early age. The differences between parenting the way we are and the way some others do it are so obviously big!
We joke around like that too and it's fun and just the way we are in our family. It feels really connected to me - being able to talk on that sort of level with our children. I'm so thankful to have known about being respectful (arrghh, it sounds revolting put like that - as it should be bleedingly obvious to us humans, shouldn't it???) at the beginning of my parenting journey because the relationship I have now, with my son at 8 is really wonderful and very real.
Kim H
moms can do to "be supportive" in a way that doesn't really help.>>
Lewi, at 8, understands this too. It amazes me, sometimes, how much our children take in at an early age. The differences between parenting the way we are and the way some others do it are so obviously big!
We joke around like that too and it's fun and just the way we are in our family. It feels really connected to me - being able to talk on that sort of level with our children. I'm so thankful to have known about being respectful (arrghh, it sounds revolting put like that - as it should be bleedingly obvious to us humans, shouldn't it???) at the beginning of my parenting journey because the relationship I have now, with my son at 8 is really wonderful and very real.
Kim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 4:46 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] "Support" vs. discussion
I was reading e-mail from Pam Sorooshian about the difference between
philosophical discussion and support, and how some people can't seem
to understand the difference.
Holly came in to talk to me about a project she's working on. I had
helped her brainstorm yesterday, and printed some things out for her
she might use as a basis for some of the art. While we were
talking, I was taking notes on a napkin and when I showed them to her
later she said "these are really good!" and I said "Well I'm a
writer, so I wrote some stuff." It was happy and busy and fun.
So when Holly came in today to talk about her progress, she told me
what she had just done, and I nodded and kept looking at her, and she
said something like "You're my writer, so I need you to help me say
this better."
"Oh! I thought was being your mom. 'Okay, dear,'" I said in an
approving, supportive mom-way.
And in the sing-songiest of poodle voices, Holly imitated a
supportive mom, and she said "That's a good iDEEa! Follow your dreams."
It was hilarious and I wrote it down. At sixteen she knows what
moms can do to "be supportive" in a way that doesn't really help.
In writing that down, I'm aware that some people might read this and
say that I said not to tell a kid her idea is good, and not to
encourage a child to follow her dreams.
If anyone is tempted to think that way, please consider that few
things in the world are all or nothing. If all a parent does is
voice pre-spoken platitudes, it won't be as helpful as if real words
are spoken. If you use a phrase others have used, use it with
awareness and intent, for a good and specific reason.
There are times to say "You know John better than the coach does,"
but that's not to say it's very helpful to tell an unseen, unknown
mom "You know your child better than anyone." First, it might not be
true. Second, she might be in the midst of a very neglectful or
clueless or delusional season, and it can't help for a stranger, by e-
mail, to say "You're a great mom and your child is lucky to have you."
I'm willing to support people in their quest to understand natural
learning and mindful parenting, but that support involves helping
them understand the principles behind why it works, and finding ways
to adapt their lives in ways that will help it flourish in their
families.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If I wasn't interested in
learning and growing, then perhaps I would be content to only receive
virtual pats on the back "support." -=-
I think it's one thing that women do for other women, on a very
surface level. It's fine behavior for church, or for a get-together
to process food, or for a quilting bee. Great behavior for a
garden party or a tea party. It's not about learning, though, it's
about being pleasant together until it's time to go home.
Men have their own way of doing similar things when they go hunting
or help each other build or carry or plant or harvest. These are old
behaviors.
Then there are groups gathered for the purpose of inquiry or study or
exploration, and they're more likely to "stay on topic."
Sometimes the topic is pressing, and the inquiry is of an emergency
nature, and I think unschooling often comes in that category.
Sometimes people who come here are distraught or afraid or just
stunned by the idea that they're actually considering going against
their entire upbringing and all their friends, neighbors and
relatives. That's big. And just like when someone's in shock
someone should help them stay conscious and alive, when someone is in
social shock, telling them to just do whatever they want to is
supremely UNhelpful. Those who do have some idea what needs to be
done to get the family moving toward unschooling without them having
to fight and cry and freak out should (if they're willing, as many on
this list and other such places are) help them do it.
If we were in person, the help might involve another a woman holding
another woman by the shoulders and looking into her eyes and saying
"Breathe." That might seem extreme, but without the breathing,
without the "WAIT! Listen--" moment, she could blubber and natter on
for hours or weeks or months, having no idea what direction to go,
and could manage to piss off her husband, lose her kids' confidence,
spread guilt and confusion, and end up with the kid back in school,
only with the history of some weird incident where his mom took him
out. Or back to the curriculum sales sites where she spends another
$600 to try to teach him a different way, because last year's way
caused tears and sorrow.
In a moment of emotional distress, tea-party manners are infuriating.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
learning and growing, then perhaps I would be content to only receive
virtual pats on the back "support." -=-
I think it's one thing that women do for other women, on a very
surface level. It's fine behavior for church, or for a get-together
to process food, or for a quilting bee. Great behavior for a
garden party or a tea party. It's not about learning, though, it's
about being pleasant together until it's time to go home.
Men have their own way of doing similar things when they go hunting
or help each other build or carry or plant or harvest. These are old
behaviors.
Then there are groups gathered for the purpose of inquiry or study or
exploration, and they're more likely to "stay on topic."
Sometimes the topic is pressing, and the inquiry is of an emergency
nature, and I think unschooling often comes in that category.
Sometimes people who come here are distraught or afraid or just
stunned by the idea that they're actually considering going against
their entire upbringing and all their friends, neighbors and
relatives. That's big. And just like when someone's in shock
someone should help them stay conscious and alive, when someone is in
social shock, telling them to just do whatever they want to is
supremely UNhelpful. Those who do have some idea what needs to be
done to get the family moving toward unschooling without them having
to fight and cry and freak out should (if they're willing, as many on
this list and other such places are) help them do it.
If we were in person, the help might involve another a woman holding
another woman by the shoulders and looking into her eyes and saying
"Breathe." That might seem extreme, but without the breathing,
without the "WAIT! Listen--" moment, she could blubber and natter on
for hours or weeks or months, having no idea what direction to go,
and could manage to piss off her husband, lose her kids' confidence,
spread guilt and confusion, and end up with the kid back in school,
only with the history of some weird incident where his mom took him
out. Or back to the curriculum sales sites where she spends another
$600 to try to teach him a different way, because last year's way
caused tears and sorrow.
In a moment of emotional distress, tea-party manners are infuriating.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't understand how you can have discussion without
disagreement that could be viewed as debate.-=-
I think it can be done by not really sharing personal belief or
experience.
We could have a discussion about recipes for homemade play dough
without debate.
We could have a discussion about easy-to-read books without debate.
We could exchange vegetarian pizza recipes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
disagreement that could be viewed as debate.-=-
I think it can be done by not really sharing personal belief or
experience.
We could have a discussion about recipes for homemade play dough
without debate.
We could have a discussion about easy-to-read books without debate.
We could exchange vegetarian pizza recipes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Dietrick
in these past few years that Ive come online to discover the wide
world of forums discussion lists and support groups Ive found that if
I just present what Ive learned living my life without the *how* I got
there, without the path which I followed that has brought me to this
particular moment in time, well, it is then that I find that people
get upset or offput by what I have written.
If I am able to take the time to present my past experiences then the
whole thing softens.
I dont always feel like doing that though--Ive got a lot of
experiences accumulated just because ive had 7 children, traveled
around the world slowly and have beenliving in a foreign country for
longer than I lived in the US.
And sometimes I share a view, without that sort of path-background and
it gets picked apart, and my own ego prickles...:o)
but yes, I agree that I love the push that some pickles without the
tea party can give me.
I too really enjoy reading and participating on this list...well more
reading and thining than participating alas.
must run,
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
world of forums discussion lists and support groups Ive found that if
I just present what Ive learned living my life without the *how* I got
there, without the path which I followed that has brought me to this
particular moment in time, well, it is then that I find that people
get upset or offput by what I have written.
If I am able to take the time to present my past experiences then the
whole thing softens.
I dont always feel like doing that though--Ive got a lot of
experiences accumulated just because ive had 7 children, traveled
around the world slowly and have beenliving in a foreign country for
longer than I lived in the US.
And sometimes I share a view, without that sort of path-background and
it gets picked apart, and my own ego prickles...:o)
but yes, I agree that I love the push that some pickles without the
tea party can give me.
I too really enjoy reading and participating on this list...well more
reading and thining than participating alas.
must run,
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I don't understand how you can have discussion without
> disagreement that could be viewed as debate.-=-
>
>
>
> I think it can be done by not really sharing personal belief or
> experience.
>
>
>
> We could have a discussion about recipes for homemade play dough
> without debate.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
I think it can be done by not really sharing personal belief or
experience.
We could have a discussion about recipes for homemade play dough
without debate.
We could have a discussion about easy-to-read books without debate.
We could exchange vegetarian pizza recipes.
-=-=-=-=-=-
<G>
Maybe it's just the unschooling lists, but I doubt even the above
things can be discussed without debate. <G>
Play dough? With peanut butter or without?
Easy-to-read books? With phonics or without?
Vegetarian pizzas? With chicken or without? <snort>
There *always* seems to be *something* that comes up---even in such
innocuous discussions! <G>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
I think it can be done by not really sharing personal belief or
experience.
We could have a discussion about recipes for homemade play dough
without debate.
We could have a discussion about easy-to-read books without debate.
We could exchange vegetarian pizza recipes.
-=-=-=-=-=-
<G>
Maybe it's just the unschooling lists, but I doubt even the above
things can be discussed without debate. <G>
Play dough? With peanut butter or without?
Easy-to-read books? With phonics or without?
Vegetarian pizzas? With chicken or without? <snort>
There *always* seems to be *something* that comes up---even in such
innocuous discussions! <G>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Jenny C
> There are times to say "You know John better than the coach does,"I think I'm a pretty good mom and my kids feel lucky to have me, but
> but that's not to say it's very helpful to tell an unseen, unknown
> mom "You know your child better than anyone." First, it might not be
> true. Second, she might be in the midst of a very neglectful or
> clueless or delusional season, and it can't help for a stranger, by e-
> mail, to say "You're a great mom and your child is lucky to have you."
>
sometimes I wake up and see my kids all anew and have that thought that
I really don't "know" them!
Sometimes I think other people know them better simply because they are
more similar or something. I really do know my kids, but sometimes they
really stump me or throw me for a loop on something that I thought I
knew of or about them.
They seem to grow and change every day, so I have to really pay
attention and listen to really know them better, every day.
k
Well... I *hope* nobody mistakes my posts for support unless something I've
said (or repeated) works for them. Not every thought or device works for
everyone.
Where is the place to put this so people don't think it's anything other
than discussion (or whatever I say can be taken for)? Oh yes. Maybe I
could keep a disclaimer in my signature. ;)
~Katherine
said (or repeated) works for them. Not every thought or device works for
everyone.
Where is the place to put this so people don't think it's anything other
than discussion (or whatever I say can be taken for)? Oh yes. Maybe I
could keep a disclaimer in my signature. ;)
~Katherine
On 9/18/08, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@... <Sandra%40SandraDodd.com>>
>
> I think it can be done by not really sharing personal belief or
> experience.
>
> We could have a discussion about recipes for homemade play dough
> without debate.
>
> We could have a discussion about easy-to-read books without debate.
>
> We could exchange vegetarian pizza recipes.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> <G>
>
> Maybe it's just the unschooling lists, but I doubt even the above
> things can be discussed without debate. <G>
>
> Play dough? With peanut butter or without?
> Easy-to-read books? With phonics or without?
> Vegetarian pizzas? With chicken or without? <snort>
>
> There *always* seems to be *something* that comes up---even in such
> innocuous discussions! <G>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Well... I *hope* nobody mistakes my posts for support unless
something I've
said (or repeated) works for them. Not every thought or device works for
everyone.-=-
You don't need to qualify your remarks in a sigline. The assumption
with any sharing of advice is that people should take what they like
and leave the rest (preferably leave the rest *quietly*).
And this whole LIST is support. It's support like nobody's bizness,
it's just this: It's support for serious unschooling, not for half-
assedness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
something I've
said (or repeated) works for them. Not every thought or device works for
everyone.-=-
You don't need to qualify your remarks in a sigline. The assumption
with any sharing of advice is that people should take what they like
and leave the rest (preferably leave the rest *quietly*).
And this whole LIST is support. It's support like nobody's bizness,
it's just this: It's support for serious unschooling, not for half-
assedness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swissarmy_wife
I find that those who are serious about unschooling look for
discussion. Half-assers usually want support. :-)
Does anyone find that at their local homeschool groups people get
defensive when you mention that you are unschooling? Everyone talks
about curriculum and field trips and yada yada yada until they meet
me. Then it turns to "oh well, we do SOME unschooling" or "we
unschool but we still have math and bedtimes". Why suddenly get so
defensive? Are they threatened by my presence? It seems I make most
uncomfortable, but I've inspired one at least. :-)
discussion. Half-assers usually want support. :-)
Does anyone find that at their local homeschool groups people get
defensive when you mention that you are unschooling? Everyone talks
about curriculum and field trips and yada yada yada until they meet
me. Then it turns to "oh well, we do SOME unschooling" or "we
unschool but we still have math and bedtimes". Why suddenly get so
defensive? Are they threatened by my presence? It seems I make most
uncomfortable, but I've inspired one at least. :-)
> And this whole LIST is support. It's support like nobody's bizness,
> it's just this: It's support for serious unschooling, not for half-
> assedness.
Pamela Sorooshian
Rosie and I got involved in a discussion with several young men (ages
18/19) about Hannah Montana and Miley Cyrus. A couple of them were
EXTREMELY opposed to parents allowing young girls to watch Hannah
Montana or to buy any related products, etc. Their arguments were not
particularly well thought out - they were clearly spouting stuff
they'd heard from some other people - moms of younger kids who they
hang out with a lot.
Their main point was that little girls get "completely obsessed" with
looking like and being like Miley Cyrus and they don't feel like they
stack up well in comparison to her and so they develop low self-
esteem. They also threw in some stuff about the young girls being
taken in by sophisticated marketing techniques and turned into
materialistic shallow consumers. They saw fighting against Disney's
influence as a feminist issue.
I'd like to talk to them about it again - mostly for the purpose of
helping them not be so willing, in the future, to parrot other
people's ideas without thinking them through for themselves.
So - I'm asking you all for input. It is a little different than
talking to other parents about their own kids.
-pam
18/19) about Hannah Montana and Miley Cyrus. A couple of them were
EXTREMELY opposed to parents allowing young girls to watch Hannah
Montana or to buy any related products, etc. Their arguments were not
particularly well thought out - they were clearly spouting stuff
they'd heard from some other people - moms of younger kids who they
hang out with a lot.
Their main point was that little girls get "completely obsessed" with
looking like and being like Miley Cyrus and they don't feel like they
stack up well in comparison to her and so they develop low self-
esteem. They also threw in some stuff about the young girls being
taken in by sophisticated marketing techniques and turned into
materialistic shallow consumers. They saw fighting against Disney's
influence as a feminist issue.
I'd like to talk to them about it again - mostly for the purpose of
helping them not be so willing, in the future, to parrot other
people's ideas without thinking them through for themselves.
So - I'm asking you all for input. It is a little different than
talking to other parents about their own kids.
-pam
Jenny C
> Their main point was that little girls get "completely obsessed" withI don't see how liking Miley Cyrus and being influenced by her is a
> looking like and being like Miley Cyrus and they don't feel like they
> stack up well in comparison to her and so they develop low self-
> esteem. They also threw in some stuff about the young girls being
> taken in by sophisticated marketing techniques and turned into
> materialistic shallow consumers. They saw fighting against Disney's
> influence as a feminist issue.
>
feminist issue. If anything, it supports the idea that girls can have
careers, even young girls. Miley Cyrus hasn't yet portrayed a "bad"
image for young girls to emulate. That's yet to be seen though, as she
hasn't quite launched herself solo of Disney. Britney Spears wouldn't
be a good example of Disney pop iconism, but Christina Aguelera did
pretty good for herself and remains a talented musician.
Since Miley Cyrus grew up in Hollywood pop culture, it would stand to
reason that she might be a bit more savvy when it comes to her public
image. Maybe. So far, that seems true.
Margaux loves Miley Cyrus and Hannah Montanna. She likes the show, she
likes the music. Heck, even Chamille likes the newer Miley Cyrus music,
and that isn't her genre at all (plus she's impressed that Miley Cyrus
is friends with Jeffrey Starr IRL). What Margaux likes most, is singing
to her music. We, as a family unit all like her co-star best of all,
the girl who plays "Lilly", Emily Osment. Her brother is a fine actor
as well, really awesome in the 6th Sense.
Miley Cyrus looks like a well dressed ordinary girl. I think that is
why she is so popular. Yes, she's pretty, but not extraordinarily so,
like some pop icon girls. There is something about her that is both
extraordinary and ordinary, that draws girls to her, perhaps it's the
dream of feeling extraordinary. It seems all little girls want to be
the princess, it's an old theme that Disney uses often, in varying ways,
this is just a spin off that theme.
When I look around me at all the little girls I know, most of them do
not try to emulate Hannah Montanna, they may like her and buy her
products, but "emulate?", I'm not so sure.
As far as fighting Disney goes, well, sometimes Disney irritates me,
it's true, but for the most part my kids have all really enjoyed a lot
of Disney movies and shows. It brings up a lot of conversations around
here. Besides all that, it's not the only thing out there that kids are
influenced by. I think everyone in my family would watch SpongeBob over
Hannah Montanna most days. We don't emulate SpongeBob either.... hmmm
that would be a little scary!
Sandra Dodd
-=-So - I'm asking you all for input. It is a little different than
talking to other parents about their own kids.-=-
Ask them which characters in the media might be better role models.
Ask them if they think young girls' desire to grow up quickly and be
part of the in crowd would be satisfied if they were totally deprived
if ANYthing to fantasize about.
My train of thought here is to skirt the edges of what you figuring
they have in their own lives as heroes or icons. Skateboarders?
Racecar drivers? Athletes? Musicians? What music do they listen to
and why? I wouldn't ask them, I'd just run a parallel line of
inquiry on the girly side.
And definitely show them this, if you need a tension breaker:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2008/05/kirby-hannah-montana-and-last-
friday-in.html
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
talking to other parents about their own kids.-=-
Ask them which characters in the media might be better role models.
Ask them if they think young girls' desire to grow up quickly and be
part of the in crowd would be satisfied if they were totally deprived
if ANYthing to fantasize about.
My train of thought here is to skirt the edges of what you figuring
they have in their own lives as heroes or icons. Skateboarders?
Racecar drivers? Athletes? Musicians? What music do they listen to
and why? I wouldn't ask them, I'd just run a parallel line of
inquiry on the girly side.
And definitely show them this, if you need a tension breaker:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2008/05/kirby-hannah-montana-and-last-
friday-in.html
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
***Their main point was that little girls get "completely obsessed" with
looking like and being like Miley Cyrus and they don't feel like they
stack up well in comparison to her and so they develop low self-
esteem. They also threw in some stuff about the young girls being
taken in by sophisticated marketing techniques and turned into
materialistic shallow consumers.***
Well... in our household Kyra, 11, actually goes out of her way to avoid Miley Cyrus products or things with over marketed stars on them. (Except Sponge Bob <g>)
When the Hannah Montana show first started she enjoyed watching it, but in the last year or so she has said that she is so tired of seeing Miley everywhere. So Disney has actually done the opposite with Kyra as far as selling those products or an image.
She's also about had it with all the Jones Bros stuff too.
Kelli~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
looking like and being like Miley Cyrus and they don't feel like they
stack up well in comparison to her and so they develop low self-
esteem. They also threw in some stuff about the young girls being
taken in by sophisticated marketing techniques and turned into
materialistic shallow consumers.***
Well... in our household Kyra, 11, actually goes out of her way to avoid Miley Cyrus products or things with over marketed stars on them. (Except Sponge Bob <g>)
When the Hannah Montana show first started she enjoyed watching it, but in the last year or so she has said that she is so tired of seeing Miley everywhere. So Disney has actually done the opposite with Kyra as far as selling those products or an image.
She's also about had it with all the Jones Bros stuff too.
Kelli~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Their main point was that little girls get "completely obsessed" with
looking like and being like Miley Cyrus and they don't feel like they
stack up well in comparison to her and so they develop low self-
esteem. ~~
Sierra has a pretty strong and healthy sense of self esteem and she
LOVED the whole Hannah/Miley thing for a while. She also has a very
funky, unique style that looks NOTHING like anything on tv, so I don't
think those shows have that much power.
I'm not a big fan of them myself, but I don't think they're harmful. I
think the environment the child is surrounded by has LOT more to do
with how they view themselves and the kind of consumers they are than
any tv show or singer out there!!
It's a bunch of hogwash, but when people see lots of young girls
mimicking and looking up to celebrities like that, they assume the
power to influence is with the celebrity. It's not so much.
Ren
looking like and being like Miley Cyrus and they don't feel like they
stack up well in comparison to her and so they develop low self-
esteem. ~~
Sierra has a pretty strong and healthy sense of self esteem and she
LOVED the whole Hannah/Miley thing for a while. She also has a very
funky, unique style that looks NOTHING like anything on tv, so I don't
think those shows have that much power.
I'm not a big fan of them myself, but I don't think they're harmful. I
think the environment the child is surrounded by has LOT more to do
with how they view themselves and the kind of consumers they are than
any tv show or singer out there!!
It's a bunch of hogwash, but when people see lots of young girls
mimicking and looking up to celebrities like that, they assume the
power to influence is with the celebrity. It's not so much.
Ren
Ren Allen
~~When the Hannah Montana show first started she enjoyed watching it,
but in the last year or so she has said that she is so tired of seeing
Miley everywhere. So Disney has actually done the opposite with Kyra
as far as selling those products or an image.~~
Same with Sierra. She's so tired of seeing/hearing about it! She found
out how those kind of celebrities are "created" and it kinda disgusted
her because she values true singer/songwriters that create their own
music. She adores musicians like Regina Spektor so Miley can't really
compete after a while.:)
But she loved it at first and I see no ill effects from that! Even if
she still loved it, I don't believe for a second that it would be
harmful to her self esteem. Cripes. I think I mentioned something
about the Barbie issues some time ago....;)
Ren
but in the last year or so she has said that she is so tired of seeing
Miley everywhere. So Disney has actually done the opposite with Kyra
as far as selling those products or an image.~~
Same with Sierra. She's so tired of seeing/hearing about it! She found
out how those kind of celebrities are "created" and it kinda disgusted
her because she values true singer/songwriters that create their own
music. She adores musicians like Regina Spektor so Miley can't really
compete after a while.:)
But she loved it at first and I see no ill effects from that! Even if
she still loved it, I don't believe for a second that it would be
harmful to her self esteem. Cripes. I think I mentioned something
about the Barbie issues some time ago....;)
Ren
Sandra Dodd
Melissa talked about years of experience. That's valuable unless the
mom is using it to justify same-old/same-old.
Recently I responded to some writings about TV, and I don't think
anyone who had written so bravely had a kid over the age of four. So
I was able to tell them my 16, 19 and 22 year olds are fine, so I
know TV won't hurt their kids. But will they see me as bullying
them with experience or sharing knowledge? Each will see it from
inside her own head, and depending how open she is to learning and
change, she'll see it as helpful, good, dangerous or satanically
evil. And still, my kids are great.
This is presented anonymously. It's not my writing. It could sure
SOUND like my writing. I guess I'm not the only one who feels this
way, then!
"I'm not very patient when it comes to waiting and getting
unschooling. The kids grow up way too fast. I'm trying to be nice,
but I refuse to water down my views."
This is what is required for social chit-chat: watering down. Nicey-
niceness. It might not be sincere, but golly it's *nice.* Nice is
good when we're trying to comfort each other about the hopelessness
of our predicament, or the powerlessness of our position as women.
Once we stand up and put some walking shoes on and realize it's not
the 19th century anymore, it's not even the 20th century anymore, we
can interact from a place of power and choice.
Besides there are some dads here, so try not to act too much like
girly-girls.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't realize this had been sitting open on the computer all day.
I was in and out, up and down, and apparently my mail program froze
up so there were no clues like little beeps.
Meanwhile, each time I sat down, I worked on a little piece of
performance art (an self-serve, interactive web page for special
occasions). Come to think of it, it's entirely for, by and about
women. Men might not get it or they might get it but not appreciate
it at all. That's okay. In all the dozen and some years I've been
helping other unschoolers, not a single male has ever said "I came
here for support. This isn't very supportive."
I don't think it's finished. It needs more quotes. It might need
proofreading for typing or code glitches. Anyone who has a little
spare time and wants to contribute to fancifying and reinforcing it,
I can add more quotes now or someday later or both.
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
mom is using it to justify same-old/same-old.
Recently I responded to some writings about TV, and I don't think
anyone who had written so bravely had a kid over the age of four. So
I was able to tell them my 16, 19 and 22 year olds are fine, so I
know TV won't hurt their kids. But will they see me as bullying
them with experience or sharing knowledge? Each will see it from
inside her own head, and depending how open she is to learning and
change, she'll see it as helpful, good, dangerous or satanically
evil. And still, my kids are great.
This is presented anonymously. It's not my writing. It could sure
SOUND like my writing. I guess I'm not the only one who feels this
way, then!
"I'm not very patient when it comes to waiting and getting
unschooling. The kids grow up way too fast. I'm trying to be nice,
but I refuse to water down my views."
This is what is required for social chit-chat: watering down. Nicey-
niceness. It might not be sincere, but golly it's *nice.* Nice is
good when we're trying to comfort each other about the hopelessness
of our predicament, or the powerlessness of our position as women.
Once we stand up and put some walking shoes on and realize it's not
the 19th century anymore, it's not even the 20th century anymore, we
can interact from a place of power and choice.
Besides there are some dads here, so try not to act too much like
girly-girls.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't realize this had been sitting open on the computer all day.
I was in and out, up and down, and apparently my mail program froze
up so there were no clues like little beeps.
Meanwhile, each time I sat down, I worked on a little piece of
performance art (an self-serve, interactive web page for special
occasions). Come to think of it, it's entirely for, by and about
women. Men might not get it or they might get it but not appreciate
it at all. That's okay. In all the dozen and some years I've been
helping other unschoolers, not a single male has ever said "I came
here for support. This isn't very supportive."
I don't think it's finished. It needs more quotes. It might need
proofreading for typing or code glitches. Anyone who has a little
spare time and wants to contribute to fancifying and reinforcing it,
I can add more quotes now or someday later or both.
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
son Pat (he's 13). I told him I thought it sucked. He gave me a
dressing down for jumping to conclusions after watching ten minutes of
one episode. But he didn't actually say what he thought of it. He
doesn't watch it in any event. We catch a trailer from time to time
I certainly wouldn't be opposed to him watching the show if he wanted
to. Or anybody else. It's still bright, bubbly and shiny which is no
bad thing, even if I think it's shallow. But then I'm a 56 year old
guy with my head in a different world. Probably. Pat and I both like
The Suite Life of Zac and Cody, though, which is pretty close to as
shallow as you can get. And Clueless is one of my all time favourite
movies (for some reason). So I think it's Hannah Montana itself that
doesn't appeal to me not the genre.
As for Miley Cyrus, well, that goes back to Helen Shapiro and before
her probably.
From Helen Shapiro's Wikipedia page: "In 1961, at the age of fourteen,
she had two number one hits in the UK: "You Don't Know" and "Walkin'
Back to Happiness"; and, indeed, her first four single releases all
went into the top three of the UK Singles Chart. Her mature voice made
her an overnight sensation, as well as the youngest female chart
topper in the UK. At a mere 14 years and 316 days old when "You Don't
Know" hit the top, she was nevertheless a year older than Frankie
Lymon had been when "Why Do Fools Fall in Love" hit the UK number one
slot in 1956.
Before she was sixteen years old, Shapiro had been voted Britain's
'Top Female Singer', and when The Beatles had their first national
tour it was as her supporting act. The Beatles even wrote the song
"Misery" for her but, inexplicably, EMI decided not to record her
singing it.
By the time she was in her late teens, however, her career as a pop
singer was on the wane. Undaunted, she re-invented herself as a
performer in stage musicals, a jazz singer, (jazz being her first love
musically), and more recently a gospel singer."
These days, of course, it's all more sophisticated and complex and
there are more ways to get into our faces. But IMO it's not
fundamentally different.
HTH.
Bob
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>I watched an episode - part of an episode - of Hannah Montana with my
>
>
> So - I'm asking you all for input. It is a little different than
> talking to other parents about their own kids.
>
> -pam
>
son Pat (he's 13). I told him I thought it sucked. He gave me a
dressing down for jumping to conclusions after watching ten minutes of
one episode. But he didn't actually say what he thought of it. He
doesn't watch it in any event. We catch a trailer from time to time
I certainly wouldn't be opposed to him watching the show if he wanted
to. Or anybody else. It's still bright, bubbly and shiny which is no
bad thing, even if I think it's shallow. But then I'm a 56 year old
guy with my head in a different world. Probably. Pat and I both like
The Suite Life of Zac and Cody, though, which is pretty close to as
shallow as you can get. And Clueless is one of my all time favourite
movies (for some reason). So I think it's Hannah Montana itself that
doesn't appeal to me not the genre.
As for Miley Cyrus, well, that goes back to Helen Shapiro and before
her probably.
From Helen Shapiro's Wikipedia page: "In 1961, at the age of fourteen,
she had two number one hits in the UK: "You Don't Know" and "Walkin'
Back to Happiness"; and, indeed, her first four single releases all
went into the top three of the UK Singles Chart. Her mature voice made
her an overnight sensation, as well as the youngest female chart
topper in the UK. At a mere 14 years and 316 days old when "You Don't
Know" hit the top, she was nevertheless a year older than Frankie
Lymon had been when "Why Do Fools Fall in Love" hit the UK number one
slot in 1956.
Before she was sixteen years old, Shapiro had been voted Britain's
'Top Female Singer', and when The Beatles had their first national
tour it was as her supporting act. The Beatles even wrote the song
"Misery" for her but, inexplicably, EMI decided not to record her
singing it.
By the time she was in her late teens, however, her career as a pop
singer was on the wane. Undaunted, she re-invented herself as a
performer in stage musicals, a jazz singer, (jazz being her first love
musically), and more recently a gospel singer."
These days, of course, it's all more sophisticated and complex and
there are more ways to get into our faces. But IMO it's not
fundamentally different.
HTH.
Bob
Sandra Dodd
-=-The Beatles even wrote the song
"Misery" for her but, inexplicably, EMI decided not to record her
singing it.-=-
Maybe because "I'm the kind of guy / Who never used to cry" doesn't
translate to girly words. <bwg>
Holly watched an episode of Hannah Montana when we were in a hotel in
Minnesota last year. We don't have cable, so she only knew them from
the radio. The Jonas Brothers were on that episode, and she liked
that, because they're cute. Holly doesn't "need" cute; she has a
perfectly good boyfriend. Still, she's in the throes of the age at
which physical attraction is huge and new and fun. She likes their
singing.
My kids are not much prone to faddish attachments. If someone's not
any good musically, they won't listen just because their friends
are. They're pretty analytical.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Misery" for her but, inexplicably, EMI decided not to record her
singing it.-=-
Maybe because "I'm the kind of guy / Who never used to cry" doesn't
translate to girly words. <bwg>
Holly watched an episode of Hannah Montana when we were in a hotel in
Minnesota last year. We don't have cable, so she only knew them from
the radio. The Jonas Brothers were on that episode, and she liked
that, because they're cute. Holly doesn't "need" cute; she has a
perfectly good boyfriend. Still, she's in the throes of the age at
which physical attraction is huge and new and fun. She likes their
singing.
My kids are not much prone to faddish attachments. If someone's not
any good musically, they won't listen just because their friends
are. They're pretty analytical.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Dietrick
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
the place where I am now...
so when I read about a mother getting angry at her child for pouring
her expensive water meant for snacktime into her chemistry play and
sending the 3yo to her room *so the mom can cool off*...I want to just
lay in quickly, concisely that what she's doing sucks...that she needs
to work on how she is viewing all of this *inside her head*.
when I do this without sharing *how* Ive come to this place (knowing
how my thoughts are what are taking me to this place of contention,
for example, without sharing my diverse experiences of being in
similar places with a 3yo and then learning to move past that, and
what it looks like now for me with a 3yo...) when I avoid the details
and just give what she needs to do *now* this is where I might be told
Im not being supportive, and my words hurt.
I wasnt really meaning, "Ive been doing this for years like this, and
so I know it works."
hope that is clear,
its the best I can do, this morning!
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
suckling a very wiggly 3yo
>just to clarify, I was meaning the years of experiences have led me to
> Melissa talked about years of experience. That's valuable unless the
> mom is using it to justify same-old/same-old.
the place where I am now...
so when I read about a mother getting angry at her child for pouring
her expensive water meant for snacktime into her chemistry play and
sending the 3yo to her room *so the mom can cool off*...I want to just
lay in quickly, concisely that what she's doing sucks...that she needs
to work on how she is viewing all of this *inside her head*.
when I do this without sharing *how* Ive come to this place (knowing
how my thoughts are what are taking me to this place of contention,
for example, without sharing my diverse experiences of being in
similar places with a 3yo and then learning to move past that, and
what it looks like now for me with a 3yo...) when I avoid the details
and just give what she needs to do *now* this is where I might be told
Im not being supportive, and my words hurt.
I wasnt really meaning, "Ive been doing this for years like this, and
so I know it works."
hope that is clear,
its the best I can do, this morning!
melissa
in italy
mamma of 7
suckling a very wiggly 3yo
Margaret
I love the performance art piece.
I sent the link to a local list that was intended to be unschooling
friendly (unschooling is in the group name) in response to these
emails seemingly advocating the tea party approach. Thought you might
be interested in seeing the case for the tea party approach. Perhaps
not... perhaps you have seen it advocated too many times to want to
hear it again.
The context is that someone from this list posted about protesting a
spanking advocate, someone else replied with this:
"How interesting.....A fair number of homeschooling families will
likely be attending this seminar, while others are protesting it. No
one can say all PNW homeschoolers fit any one cookie-cutter.
Diversity does make for some interesting, learning, and sometimes
stretching opportunities. " (followed by information on the speaking
dates of the spanking advocate)
and then followed by this:
"Well said <name removed>.
I think we can all agree to respectfully state our opinions and be
heard without being attacked. This is what makes a good board and
topic interesting. When someone says something that differs from what
I think, it causes me to rethink it through and reconsider why I
thought that in the first place.And also if I still think it.
Sometimes I think it, but have a hard time verbalizing it out of my
mind. "Iron sharpens Iron" being a good proverb here. I am on
another board where people get snotty easily and "go off in the
mouth". I always regret how they do that and don't think they really
want to listen or understand one another. They are just reacting all
the time. We all have reactions and I think it is a really important
to be able to deal with them in the right way. Sometimes I realize
that it's just something I need to work through and other times I
realize I may need to move out of my comfort zone and talk to someone.
It's something I have been trying to teach my kids as well. It seems
like their personalities make this harder or easier at times."
I sent the link to a local list that was intended to be unschooling
friendly (unschooling is in the group name) in response to these
emails seemingly advocating the tea party approach. Thought you might
be interested in seeing the case for the tea party approach. Perhaps
not... perhaps you have seen it advocated too many times to want to
hear it again.
The context is that someone from this list posted about protesting a
spanking advocate, someone else replied with this:
"How interesting.....A fair number of homeschooling families will
likely be attending this seminar, while others are protesting it. No
one can say all PNW homeschoolers fit any one cookie-cutter.
Diversity does make for some interesting, learning, and sometimes
stretching opportunities. " (followed by information on the speaking
dates of the spanking advocate)
and then followed by this:
"Well said <name removed>.
I think we can all agree to respectfully state our opinions and be
heard without being attacked. This is what makes a good board and
topic interesting. When someone says something that differs from what
I think, it causes me to rethink it through and reconsider why I
thought that in the first place.And also if I still think it.
Sometimes I think it, but have a hard time verbalizing it out of my
mind. "Iron sharpens Iron" being a good proverb here. I am on
another board where people get snotty easily and "go off in the
mouth". I always regret how they do that and don't think they really
want to listen or understand one another. They are just reacting all
the time. We all have reactions and I think it is a really important
to be able to deal with them in the right way. Sometimes I realize
that it's just something I need to work through and other times I
realize I may need to move out of my comfort zone and talk to someone.
It's something I have been trying to teach my kids as well. It seems
like their personalities make this harder or easier at times."
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> Melissa talked about years of experience. That's valuable unless the
> mom is using it to justify same-old/same-old.
>
> Recently I responded to some writings about TV, and I don't think
> anyone who had written so bravely had a kid over the age of four. So
> I was able to tell them my 16, 19 and 22 year olds are fine, so I
> know TV won't hurt their kids. But will they see me as bullying
> them with experience or sharing knowledge? Each will see it from
> inside her own head, and depending how open she is to learning and
> change, she'll see it as helpful, good, dangerous or satanically
> evil. And still, my kids are great.
>
> This is presented anonymously. It's not my writing. It could sure
> SOUND like my writing. I guess I'm not the only one who feels this
> way, then!
>
> "I'm not very patient when it comes to waiting and getting
> unschooling. The kids grow up way too fast. I'm trying to be nice,
> but I refuse to water down my views."
>
> This is what is required for social chit-chat: watering down. Nicey-
> niceness. It might not be sincere, but golly it's *nice.* Nice is
> good when we're trying to comfort each other about the hopelessness
> of our predicament, or the powerlessness of our position as women.
> Once we stand up and put some walking shoes on and realize it's not
> the 19th century anymore, it's not even the 20th century anymore, we
> can interact from a place of power and choice.
>
> Besides there are some dads here, so try not to act too much like
> girly-girls.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> I didn't realize this had been sitting open on the computer all day.
> I was in and out, up and down, and apparently my mail program froze
> up so there were no clues like little beeps.
>
> Meanwhile, each time I sat down, I worked on a little piece of
> performance art (an self-serve, interactive web page for special
> occasions). Come to think of it, it's entirely for, by and about
> women. Men might not get it or they might get it but not appreciate
> it at all. That's okay. In all the dozen and some years I've been
> helping other unschoolers, not a single male has ever said "I came
> here for support. This isn't very supportive."
>
> I don't think it's finished. It needs more quotes. It might need
> proofreading for typing or code glitches. Anyone who has a little
> spare time and wants to contribute to fancifying and reinforcing it,
> I can add more quotes now or someday later or both.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/support
>
> Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 18, 2008, at 3:30 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
I think school culture fosters a need for kids to conform to some
accepted-by-the group-leaders standard in order to be accepted by a
peer group.
But it's prejudice to judge what's going on beneath by what's on the
surface. Where's the proof that the kids have warped their
personalities to conform to some ideal?
In fact some kids purposely dress to shock those who judge by surface
appearance. They want to make people angry because the kids are angry
that no one cares who they really are. The only real power they're
given is the power to shock.
If there is conforming and warping going on, it doesn't come from an
image but a pressure and need to conform. Miley would have no
influence if the need didn't exist. Taking away Miley doesn't remove
the need, just makes the mom feel better because there isn't an
obvious external window into what's going on inside the child.
There is, of course, a natural need to be accepted. Humans are social
creatures. We need acceptance of who we are. Unfortunately kids grow
up in the school culture where outward conformance often substitutes
for acceptance and kids can only play act within a limited scope of
characters or be ostracized. Some personalities can accept the
ostracism as part of their need to not conform. Some personalities
are willing to give up some self expression to have a social circle.
School is not a healthy social climate but Miley shouldn't be blamed
for what's been going on well before even her parents were born.
The teen years are also a time of trying on various personas to see
what they feel like. It's a teen version of pretending to be Pokemon
and fairies and mommies and daddies. Right now my daughter is trying
out being an 80's metal guitarist. Is she a sparkly red top and faux
leather pants? It's shallow and thoughtless to stop there in seeing
who she is.
It also sounds plausible the sun revolves around the Earth. In fact
you can see it happen everyday.
Where's the proof that either is true?
If the world were as it looks on the surface life would be a whole
lot simpler. But it isn't.
Joyce
> Their main point was that little girls get "completely obsessed" withI would say the surface can look like that.
> looking like and being like Miley Cyrus
I think school culture fosters a need for kids to conform to some
accepted-by-the group-leaders standard in order to be accepted by a
peer group.
But it's prejudice to judge what's going on beneath by what's on the
surface. Where's the proof that the kids have warped their
personalities to conform to some ideal?
In fact some kids purposely dress to shock those who judge by surface
appearance. They want to make people angry because the kids are angry
that no one cares who they really are. The only real power they're
given is the power to shock.
If there is conforming and warping going on, it doesn't come from an
image but a pressure and need to conform. Miley would have no
influence if the need didn't exist. Taking away Miley doesn't remove
the need, just makes the mom feel better because there isn't an
obvious external window into what's going on inside the child.
There is, of course, a natural need to be accepted. Humans are social
creatures. We need acceptance of who we are. Unfortunately kids grow
up in the school culture where outward conformance often substitutes
for acceptance and kids can only play act within a limited scope of
characters or be ostracized. Some personalities can accept the
ostracism as part of their need to not conform. Some personalities
are willing to give up some self expression to have a social circle.
School is not a healthy social climate but Miley shouldn't be blamed
for what's been going on well before even her parents were born.
The teen years are also a time of trying on various personas to see
what they feel like. It's a teen version of pretending to be Pokemon
and fairies and mommies and daddies. Right now my daughter is trying
out being an 80's metal guitarist. Is she a sparkly red top and faux
leather pants? It's shallow and thoughtless to stop there in seeing
who she is.
> and they don't feel like theyIt sounds plausible.
> stack up well in comparison to her and so they develop low self-
> esteem
It also sounds plausible the sun revolves around the Earth. In fact
you can see it happen everyday.
Where's the proof that either is true?
If the world were as it looks on the surface life would be a whole
lot simpler. But it isn't.
Joyce
Sylvia Toyama
Their main point was that little girls get "completely obsessed" with
looking like and being like Miley Cyrus and they don't feel like they
stack up well in comparison to her and so they develop low self-
esteem.
*****
We watch a lot of Hannah Montana here. Dan (7) even DVR's new
episodes. As Disney shows go, it's not bad. I'm not a big fan of
Disney, for a variety of reasons -- chief among them the
parent-attrition rate.<g> Disney seems convinced you can't have a
story with both parents still alive and present in a child's life (the
only exception I see is Wizards of Waverly Place).
I've noticed many of the HM shows revolve around some stupid, shallow,
thoughtless, or immature choice made by Miley, and they all wrap up
nicely with the usual Disney morals. As a result, Miley doesn't
always come off as the 'girl you want to be' character. Lilly comes
across as more thoughtful and at time, I think.
The Dad is a little heavy-handed and immature himself, but that's part
of what sells family sit-coms (Dads especially seem petty and clueless
on TV).
******
They also threw in some stuff about the young girls being taken in by
sophisticated marketing techniques and turned into materialistic
shallow consumers.
******
This sounds like them parroting what the adults say. Mainstream
parents truly believe kids are stupid, and will buy anything marketed
to them. Retailers seem to think so, too. I give kids more credit --
we know kids are really much more savvy than 'experts' say they are.
*****
They saw fighting against Disney's influence as a feminist issue.
*****
I can see how folks could make that argument, but Cinderella, Sleeping
Beauty and Rapunzel have been around much longer than Disney. Disney
doesn't deserve all the 'save me, I'm a helpless princess' mindset.
And I can find many non-feminist reasons to revile Disney.....
Sylvia
looking like and being like Miley Cyrus and they don't feel like they
stack up well in comparison to her and so they develop low self-
esteem.
*****
We watch a lot of Hannah Montana here. Dan (7) even DVR's new
episodes. As Disney shows go, it's not bad. I'm not a big fan of
Disney, for a variety of reasons -- chief among them the
parent-attrition rate.<g> Disney seems convinced you can't have a
story with both parents still alive and present in a child's life (the
only exception I see is Wizards of Waverly Place).
I've noticed many of the HM shows revolve around some stupid, shallow,
thoughtless, or immature choice made by Miley, and they all wrap up
nicely with the usual Disney morals. As a result, Miley doesn't
always come off as the 'girl you want to be' character. Lilly comes
across as more thoughtful and at time, I think.
The Dad is a little heavy-handed and immature himself, but that's part
of what sells family sit-coms (Dads especially seem petty and clueless
on TV).
******
They also threw in some stuff about the young girls being taken in by
sophisticated marketing techniques and turned into materialistic
shallow consumers.
******
This sounds like them parroting what the adults say. Mainstream
parents truly believe kids are stupid, and will buy anything marketed
to them. Retailers seem to think so, too. I give kids more credit --
we know kids are really much more savvy than 'experts' say they are.
*****
They saw fighting against Disney's influence as a feminist issue.
*****
I can see how folks could make that argument, but Cinderella, Sleeping
Beauty and Rapunzel have been around much longer than Disney. Disney
doesn't deserve all the 'save me, I'm a helpless princess' mindset.
And I can find many non-feminist reasons to revile Disney.....
Sylvia
Sandra Dodd
-=-when I do this without sharing *how* Ive come to this place (knowing
how my thoughts are what are taking me to this place of contention,
for example, without sharing my diverse experiences of being in
similar places with a 3yo and then learning to move past that, and
what it looks like now for me with a 3yo...) when I avoid the details
and just give what she needs to do *now* this is where I might be told
Im not being supportive, and my words hurt.-=-
When Ren says she used to limit TV and defend that online but then
she changed, that's what some people want to hear.
When I say that for 22 years, since Kirby was born, I didn't limit
his media access, they think then that I don't know what I'm talking
about.
Some people only want to hear from deschooling from other people who
had kids in school and then took them out.
Some people only want to hear about parenting young children from
people who also have young children right at that moment. That's the
worst of all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
how my thoughts are what are taking me to this place of contention,
for example, without sharing my diverse experiences of being in
similar places with a 3yo and then learning to move past that, and
what it looks like now for me with a 3yo...) when I avoid the details
and just give what she needs to do *now* this is where I might be told
Im not being supportive, and my words hurt.-=-
When Ren says she used to limit TV and defend that online but then
she changed, that's what some people want to hear.
When I say that for 22 years, since Kirby was born, I didn't limit
his media access, they think then that I don't know what I'm talking
about.
Some people only want to hear from deschooling from other people who
had kids in school and then took them out.
Some people only want to hear about parenting young children from
people who also have young children right at that moment. That's the
worst of all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-But it's prejudice to judge what's going on beneath by what's on the
surface. Where's the proof that the kids have warped their
personalities to conform to some ideal?-=-
When I was a kid I was a big Beatlemaniac. I was of an age to be
able to save my meager allowance to buy Beatles albums for $5. Once
I sold an art easel to my neighbor for the price of a Beatle's album.
-=-In fact some kids purposely dress to shock those who judge by
surface appearance. They want to make people angry because the kids
are angry that no one cares who they really are. The only real power
they're given is the power to shock.-=-
Those would be the kids who liked the Rolling Stones, when I was
young. <bwg>
And also the whole set of us, who wore fringed jeans we hadn't
ironed, and didn't want the holes patched, and went braless and let
our hair be straight or curly as it came out on its own without
slavishly "styling" it. And the boys let their hair grow long. And
for parents who had been participants in WWII, that was a HUGE "screw
you guys" kind of shock. I think my kids don't appreciate how
extreme that was, in the 60's. Now, to shock parents from the 60's,
kids have to pierce and tattoo the heck out of themselves, because
merely messing with hair or clothes wasn't parent-shocking.
Unschoolers don't seem to have as much of that as school kids. I've
seen some unschooled kids who did seem to be longing to shock, and I
wondered whether the parents were not spending enough time with them.
<g>
-=-Miley would have no influence if the need didn't exist. Taking
away Miley doesn't remove the need, just makes the mom feel better
because there isn't an obvious external window into what's going on
inside the child.-=-
It is not Miley it will be someone else, and Miley's better than
just about any other young female performer, as to what I would want
a young girl to want to wear or long to be like.
When I was a kid there were very few female performers who could be
emulated, and it wasn't the fashion to do so. I think it's a good
sign that feminism "took," that girls are willing to idolize and
emulate girls instead of spending ALL their time (instead of just
some) wishing they could be the girlfriend of some rock'n'roller or
athlete.
Joyce is totally brilliant. I want to be like Joyce.
-=-It sounds plausible.
-=-It also sounds plausible the sun revolves around the Earth. In fact
you can see it happen everyday.
-=-Where's the proof that either is true?
-=-If the world were as it looks on the surface life would be a whole
lot simpler. But it isn't.-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
surface. Where's the proof that the kids have warped their
personalities to conform to some ideal?-=-
When I was a kid I was a big Beatlemaniac. I was of an age to be
able to save my meager allowance to buy Beatles albums for $5. Once
I sold an art easel to my neighbor for the price of a Beatle's album.
-=-In fact some kids purposely dress to shock those who judge by
surface appearance. They want to make people angry because the kids
are angry that no one cares who they really are. The only real power
they're given is the power to shock.-=-
Those would be the kids who liked the Rolling Stones, when I was
young. <bwg>
And also the whole set of us, who wore fringed jeans we hadn't
ironed, and didn't want the holes patched, and went braless and let
our hair be straight or curly as it came out on its own without
slavishly "styling" it. And the boys let their hair grow long. And
for parents who had been participants in WWII, that was a HUGE "screw
you guys" kind of shock. I think my kids don't appreciate how
extreme that was, in the 60's. Now, to shock parents from the 60's,
kids have to pierce and tattoo the heck out of themselves, because
merely messing with hair or clothes wasn't parent-shocking.
Unschoolers don't seem to have as much of that as school kids. I've
seen some unschooled kids who did seem to be longing to shock, and I
wondered whether the parents were not spending enough time with them.
<g>
-=-Miley would have no influence if the need didn't exist. Taking
away Miley doesn't remove the need, just makes the mom feel better
because there isn't an obvious external window into what's going on
inside the child.-=-
It is not Miley it will be someone else, and Miley's better than
just about any other young female performer, as to what I would want
a young girl to want to wear or long to be like.
When I was a kid there were very few female performers who could be
emulated, and it wasn't the fashion to do so. I think it's a good
sign that feminism "took," that girls are willing to idolize and
emulate girls instead of spending ALL their time (instead of just
some) wishing they could be the girlfriend of some rock'n'roller or
athlete.
Joyce is totally brilliant. I want to be like Joyce.
-=-It sounds plausible.
-=-It also sounds plausible the sun revolves around the Earth. In fact
you can see it happen everyday.
-=-Where's the proof that either is true?
-=-If the world were as it looks on the surface life would be a whole
lot simpler. But it isn't.-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paula Sjogerman
On Sep 18, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
effective means of "fighting against" it. I'm pretty sure that Zoe
can both love Ariel and understand that her costume did not have to
be so sexy. We used to watch "Friends" as a family and we both
laughed at the jokes and talked about their level of sexual activity.
I'm sure I could think of a million more examples, but the point is I
think that watching/listening and talking WITH your kids is a much
more effective way to develop critical thinking.
Paula
> They saw fighting against Disney'sI agree with this. But I don't think that banning something is an
> influence as a feminist issue.
effective means of "fighting against" it. I'm pretty sure that Zoe
can both love Ariel and understand that her costume did not have to
be so sexy. We used to watch "Friends" as a family and we both
laughed at the jokes and talked about their level of sexual activity.
I'm sure I could think of a million more examples, but the point is I
think that watching/listening and talking WITH your kids is a much
more effective way to develop critical thinking.
Paula
Sandra Dodd
> They saw fighting against Disney'sThere's a sigline on a feminist mom's posts on a forum somewhere. I
> influence as a feminist issue.
don't want to quote it exactly, and it's in color anyway, but it says
something to the effect of having taken her daughter out of the
institution before she could stop liking trucks and blue and start
liking princesses and pink.
School doesn't create femininity and role modeling. It might reward
it a little bit, but I know lots of kids who never went to school,
and some locally whose parents were SURE that gender identification
was all nurture and no nature. Their kids are Kirby's age and older,
and the parents were wrong.
We had neighbors who had a pinkish boy who were awful to him. It was
a mom and a boy, no siblings, step father I learned later was gay.
Mom was doing the entire local baseball team. NOT a good match for a
non-macho husband. And the boy liked to come over to our house and
put on puppet shows and plays with my kids, and he wanted to play the
princess. I let him. My kids weren't teasing him about it at all.
But he had to change QUICKly if his mom called. So I think what she
was doing was wrong. But what my other friends did was as wrong in
the other direction.
Or maybe, now that I think about it, it was the very same thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-. As Disney shows go, it's not bad. I'm not a big fan of
Disney, for a variety of reasons -- chief among them the
parent-attrition rate.<g> Disney seems convinced you can't have a
story with both parents still alive and present in a child's life (the
only exception I see is Wizards of Waverly Place). -=-
Fairy tales seem to begin at the place of conflict or grief, and then
they work it out from there.
-=-I've noticed many of the HM shows revolve around some stupid,...-=-
-=-Mainstream parents truly believe kids are stupid, ...-=-
Please try to rephrase instead of using the word "stupid." There's
no meaning left in that word anymore, it's just a wad of negativity
without substance. I don't mean just on this list. I think when
people use the word "stupid" they're not communicating.
Perhaps this is emotion on my part, but the one word that's not used
at my house without comment or cringing is "stupid." So I'd like to
ask that people avoid using it on this list and maybe everywhere on
earth. I can ask, but I can't enforce. Please think about it,
though. I commented the last time someone used the word here too, so
I'm not trying to pick on anyone.
-=-And I can find many non-feminist reasons to revile Disney.....-=-
"Reviling" Disney (what, the man? The corporation? The theme
parks? Every movie made for 80 years?) isn't productive or useful
and it won't help anyone become better unschoolers.
Someone can love the art in "Snow White" without loving Old Yeller.
Someone can love Freaky Friday without loving The Love Bug. Please,
let's aim for fair-minded discernment on the list, in ourselves, and
with our kids.
Here's a list (there are probably several out there) just of the
animated films:
http://homepage.usask.ca/~jjs142/movielist.htm
Live-action films (a wikipedia list)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_live-action_films
It would be too much of a stretch to revile all that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Disney, for a variety of reasons -- chief among them the
parent-attrition rate.<g> Disney seems convinced you can't have a
story with both parents still alive and present in a child's life (the
only exception I see is Wizards of Waverly Place). -=-
Fairy tales seem to begin at the place of conflict or grief, and then
they work it out from there.
-=-I've noticed many of the HM shows revolve around some stupid,...-=-
-=-Mainstream parents truly believe kids are stupid, ...-=-
Please try to rephrase instead of using the word "stupid." There's
no meaning left in that word anymore, it's just a wad of negativity
without substance. I don't mean just on this list. I think when
people use the word "stupid" they're not communicating.
Perhaps this is emotion on my part, but the one word that's not used
at my house without comment or cringing is "stupid." So I'd like to
ask that people avoid using it on this list and maybe everywhere on
earth. I can ask, but I can't enforce. Please think about it,
though. I commented the last time someone used the word here too, so
I'm not trying to pick on anyone.
-=-And I can find many non-feminist reasons to revile Disney.....-=-
"Reviling" Disney (what, the man? The corporation? The theme
parks? Every movie made for 80 years?) isn't productive or useful
and it won't help anyone become better unschoolers.
Someone can love the art in "Snow White" without loving Old Yeller.
Someone can love Freaky Friday without loving The Love Bug. Please,
let's aim for fair-minded discernment on the list, in ourselves, and
with our kids.
Here's a list (there are probably several out there) just of the
animated films:
http://homepage.usask.ca/~jjs142/movielist.htm
Live-action films (a wikipedia list)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_live-action_films
It would be too much of a stretch to revile all that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I sent the link to a local list that was intended to be unschooling
friendly (unschooling is in the group name) in response to these
emails seemingly advocating the tea party approach. Thought you might
be interested in seeing the case for the tea party approach.-=-
I'm interested in the responses. It probably wouldn't be nice to put
them here, but in side mail, if you want... Maybe you could just
summarize here what the reaction is, if any.
And others here on the list... what other platitudes should I add to
the quotes list?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
friendly (unschooling is in the group name) in response to these
emails seemingly advocating the tea party approach. Thought you might
be interested in seeing the case for the tea party approach.-=-
I'm interested in the responses. It probably wouldn't be nice to put
them here, but in side mail, if you want... Maybe you could just
summarize here what the reaction is, if any.
And others here on the list... what other platitudes should I add to
the quotes list?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]