carnationsgalore

We are back in the rut again with my daughter Allie. She has been
crying today because she has no friends and is bored and lonely. The
last time I wrote about this was in early April. (see message at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/33996 )

She is now talking about public school again. She thinks it's the
only place to find friends. I believe she feels that way because of
compulsory attendance. She hasn't had much luck hanging out with
friends outside of school but she sees them every day in school.

She wants to hang out with friends, specifically girls around her age
not necessarily her exact age. She has met 2 unschoolers who live
about 30 mins. away but they haven't wanted to hang out with Allie
lately. She's completely given up hope that they will ever want to
see her again because it's been about 7 weeks. I certainly have no
ill feelings toward them. My heart hurts for Allie though.

She's in cheerleading right now. She practices 3 nights a week and
has saturday games. That will last through the first week of
November. She says it's not the same as being with friends though.

I can't find any homeschool classes around us. The classes at the
local parks & recreation dept. for her age are either dance or art,
and she isn't interested in either. She was taking piano lessons
last year but it was one on one with an adult teacher so even if she
starts back, which she is considering, it's not an activity that
leads to friendships. She learned to knit at a local shop but it was
all adults. She did taekwondo a few years ago and earned a black
belt but no friends. She tried basketball and didn't like it so
isn't in trying other sports.

She shares a room with her sister, dd16 Claire. But she says that
isn't the same as a friend, either.

While showing me her pros and cons list and talking about enrolling
this week, I reminded her of why she left the last time. It didn't
turn out well. She cried because I wasn't as enthusiastic as as
her. I just see so many bad things about doing this yet again.

Last April when she was feeling this way, we found weekly summer day
camps beginning in early June. She eagerly anticipated those camps
and absolutely loved them. Her last one was in late July though. So
it's been a month and she's bored and restless again.

I don't know what to do to help her.

Beth M.

graberamy

> She's in cheerleading right now. She practices 3 nights a week and
> has saturday games. That will last through the first week of
> November.

My daughter 11 starting cheering about 3 years ago. She's on a
competitive team (where they travel and do competitions) and it last
year round. In fact she's been with the same group of girls for 2 years
(she was on a rec team the first year). Anyway, they have really bonded
and she has made some good friends this way. They do pool parties, pot
lucks and those that she's made close friendships with she has sleep
overs and playdates with.

Anyway, that's an idea?? If she likes it, that would be a way to do it
all year?

Here's my daughters team at one of their competitions last year (they've
improved immensely this year and I'll post one of those when we get it
downloaded! Sorry my video taping is not the best quality!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TETL7mk7PA

But this cheerleading has been GREAT for Lydia! She is so dedicated and
works so hard. In fact, she just got her backhandspring this year. She
worked on this for almost a year. The little (shorter) ones, the
backhandspring came so quickly for them but for tall, lanky Lydia is was
hard work. But she was determined. In fact, I was sooo impressed by
her determination. I know she can do anything she sets her mind to!
[:)]

We don't have much of an unschooling community in our area but there are
quite a few homeschoolers and quite a few unschool friendlies. For my
son, I started a boys club. A monthly (which were gonna move it up to
bimonthly) time for the boys to get together and do fun stuff (creek
stomping, bowling, survival skills classes, fossil park hunts,
woodworking, etc.) If you're not finding groups that fit for your
daughter, start one yourself!

Lydia started school this year thinking it would meet more of her social
needs. I don't think it is, but she's not giving up yet. Personally, I
think it's taking away from them (she is just worn out when the day is
over) but she's beginning to see that!

Other ideas, start a book club, movie club, rollerskating day/night,
park day, art club, game club, dance club! Last year Lydia couldn't get
enough parties in her life so she started her own "club clone". She
tried to do it monthly but (we really are BUSY) it ended up being
bimonthly. She had a crazy hat party, a toga party, a 70's party, and I
can't even remember what else! Nothing big, just some games, chips, pop
and she would have a blast decorating the basement, making food and
picking music!

What about girl scouts, 4-H, roots and shoots or a club like that?

It's late and my brain is fading!

Good luck,
amy g
iowa






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

graberamy

<<<She has met 2 unschoolers who live
> about 30 mins. away but they haven't wanted to hang out with Allie
> lately. She's completely given up hope that they will ever want to
> see her again because it's been about 7 weeks. I certainly have no
> ill feelings toward them. My heart hurts for Allie though. >>>

Just because kids unschool doesn't mean they'll actually have a lot in
common. When Lydia was about 10 her and her unschool buddies and
homeschool friends each started becoming more independent and interest
changed. It's not that Lydia doesn't care for her friends, it's just
they don't have much in common and have very different personality
styles. So, maybe seeking out kids with similar interest?

amy g
iowa

graberamy

> Last April when she was feeling this way, we found weekly summer day
> camps beginning in early June. She eagerly anticipated those camps
> and absolutely loved them. Her last one was in late July though.>>>

I'm not sure how big of a city you live in/near but here, places like
the science center and zoo offer homeschool classes. Libraries offer
homschool book clubs.

amy g
iowa

--- In [email protected], "carnationsgalore"
<addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
>
> We are back in the rut again with my daughter Allie. She has been
> crying today because she has no friends and is bored and lonely. The
> last time I wrote about this was in early April. (see message at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/33996 )
>
> She is now talking about public school again. She thinks it's the
> only place to find friends. I believe she feels that way because of
> compulsory attendance. She hasn't had much luck hanging out with
> friends outside of school but she sees them every day in school.
>
> She wants to hang out with friends, specifically girls around her age
> not necessarily her exact age. She has met 2 unschoolers who live
> about 30 mins. away but they haven't wanted to hang out with Allie
> lately. She's completely given up hope that they will ever want to
> see her again because it's been about 7 weeks. I certainly have no
> ill feelings toward them. My heart hurts for Allie though.
>
> She's in cheerleading right now. She practices 3 nights a week and
> has saturday games. That will last through the first week of
> November. She says it's not the same as being with friends though.
>
> I can't find any homeschool classes around us. The classes at the
> local parks & recreation dept. for her age are either dance or art,
> and she isn't interested in either. She was taking piano lessons
> last year but it was one on one with an adult teacher so even if she
> starts back, which she is considering, it's not an activity that
> leads to friendships. She learned to knit at a local shop but it was
> all adults. She did taekwondo a few years ago and earned a black
> belt but no friends. She tried basketball and didn't like it so
> isn't in trying other sports.
>
> She shares a room with her sister, dd16 Claire. But she says that
> isn't the same as a friend, either.
>
> While showing me her pros and cons list and talking about enrolling
> this week, I reminded her of why she left the last time. It didn't
> turn out well. She cried because I wasn't as enthusiastic as as
> her. I just see so many bad things about doing this yet again.
>
So
> it's been a month and she's bored and restless again.
>
> I don't know what to do to help her.
>
> Beth M.
>

carnationsgalore

> Anyway, that's an idea?? If she likes it, that would be a way
> to do it all year?

There are at least 3 gyms around the area that offer gymnastics and
cheerleading. Allie did try gymnastics at one of them but left after
a few weeks. She got frustrated that she couldn't do a cartwheel
while the other girls were moving beyond that skill. Her strengths
are her attitude and spirit. She cheers at the local public park
that doesn't require athletic ability.

> Here's my daughters team at one of their competitions last year

They look fabulous! I bet she loves it! My daughter loves the cheer
bowl the public park does each year. She loves to base for stunts.

I've been on my local homeschooling groups and can't find many people
in my area who have children my age. It seems most of them are under
the age of 6. I've asked Allie if she'd like to go to one of the
park days they offer but she declines. There are some cool things
happening outside our area but the drive is just too much.

I am listening to your suggestions and trying to find a way to make
something work. I really don't want to be negative and have an
excuse for every suggestion. I know that doesn't help me. Bottom
line is that I have a 10 year old daughter who wants to be with other
girls but who is turning away from all my suggestions.

I got a new job a couple of weeks ago working part-time. I have
talked with her wondering if my being away from home is bothering
her. It does, to a point. And I have asked management to reduce my
hours to 3 hrs. a day (which would mean I'd be home before she even
wakes up for the day) or accept my resignation. Allie says it
wouldn't matter if I was home all day again. She says 'no offense
mom, but you're not a girl like me'.

Beth M.

Pamela Sorooshian

On Aug 29, 2008, at 6:57 AM, carnationsgalore wrote:

> I've been on my local homeschooling groups and can't find many people
> in my area who have children my age.

It doesn't take "many" - just one.

> It seems most of them are under
> the age of 6.

If you go to park days and she plays with the littler kids and then a
family shows up with an older kid then you'll be there to be found.
Nobody is going to "find" you if you're sitting at home.

> I've asked Allie if she'd like to go to one of the
> park days they offer but she declines.

You could say, "I'd like to go check it out if you're willing to go
along with me."

> There are some cool things happening outside our area but the
> drive is just too much.

Too much to support a lonely child? I don't know what your "too much"
is - but it might be that you have to step outside your own comfort
zone a little more. I'm making a 2 1/2 hour drive each way this week
to take my daughter to spend the day with a friend. Her two closest
friends live about 40 miles away - in opposite directions. Maybe you
need to reassess what you're willing to do?

>
>
> I am listening to your suggestions and trying to find a way to make
> something work. I really don't want to be negative and have an
> excuse for every suggestion. I know that doesn't help me.

You've sounded more "flat" and noticeably down lately, Beth. Are
there other things going on that are bringing your energy and
positivity down a little? Are you more tired than usual from working,
maybe? Or did you start working because of financial problems and is
that worrying you? I was glad to see you say the above about not being
negative - glad you're aware of that possibility!

> Bottom line is that I have a 10 year old daughter who wants to be
> with other
> girls but who is turning away from all my suggestions.

This is just the right time to join 4H or Girl Scouts or Campfire Boys
and Girls. The YMCA's have what used to be called Indian Maidens -
they've changed the name and I can't remember the new one - but that's
a mother-daughter social group.

Whatever you do - help her understand that friends aren't made
instantaneously. They develop over months, not minutes.

I think the very hardest thing I ever have had to deal with as a
parent is when my own child is being negative and not willing to "even
try" suggestions that I offer in response to her own expressed
desires. Sometimes kids need us to help them over some kind of "hump"
that is looking insurmountable to them. This might be the case for you
two, right now. You might need to both do something that gets you
moving in a positive direction, even though that "something" doesn't
look like "the answer" to your problems.

-pam

Jenny C

>
> Just because kids unschool doesn't mean they'll actually have a lot in
> common. When Lydia was about 10 her and her unschool buddies and
> homeschool friends each started becoming more independent and interest
> changed. It's not that Lydia doesn't care for her friends, it's just
> they don't have much in common and have very different personality
> styles. So, maybe seeking out kids with similar interest?


This has been true for us. Chamille has only made a few connections
within the unschooling/homeschooling community of people. When I
suggest doing things like park days, she doesn't like to go because she
knows that there will not be people she identifies with there.
Sometimes she goes with me and Margaux, but she isn't anticipating
finding anyone when she goes with us. Sometimes her experience with
other homeschool girls has been really bad, it seems that you can't
entirely escape the bitchy girl deva hierarchy even in the homeschool
community, and this is what she intesely dislikes over ANY other social
thing. If she catches even one whiff of that, she closes up entirely.

Chamille has a couple of girl friends that she likes a lot, spends time
with on occasion, but they don't have a terrible amount in common. It
does help ease loneliness. Still, I know what she's feeling like not
having a core group of like-minded friends, even I would like that. I
have that online it seems, and so does she.

There are times when it feels discouraging, but we keep trying.
Sometimes it feels like hit and miss, with mostly missing, but unless
you keep at it, you'll never get there. My sister was like this for
most of her life and she went to school surrounded with other kids, so
it could be a personality thing too, which I sense from Chamille
sometimes. That need for like-minded individuals, but being so
different from other people, it's hard to actually find them because
they are so rare. A lot of people thought my sister was snotty, but
really she just had a really high standard of who she wanted to spend
her time with, not just anyone would do, so she was with herself and her
thoughts a lot, lonely, but not with people she knew she would be
annoyed with shortly.

This is so like Chamille, however she's much more open to possibilities
and people, largely because she hasn't been forced to be with people she
didn't want to be with, like school did to my sister. I see a direct
think to that, the way my sister closed up, and Chamille remains open
and friendly.

One time Sandra said something very similar to the above, and I knew she
was right. I had to stop looking in the homeschool arena, and look
elsewhere, which was less convenient and much harder.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sometimes her experience with
other homeschool girls has been really bad, it seems that you can't
entirely escape the bitchy girl deva hierarchy even in the homeschool
community, and this is what she intesely dislikes over ANY other social
thing. If she catches even one whiff of that, she closes up entirely.-=-



Moms can help or hurt with that. If you describe it to her as you
just did with us, that will make it worse.

If you had a boy and you wrote you can't entirely escape the
competitive posturing and macho male hierarchy even in the
homeschool community, I would recommend you talk to your son about
the realities of primate behavior, and how to slide on in there and
make friends despite the fact that people behave in certain ways
naturally.

Any of those behaviors can be avoided or amended, or overcome by
courtesy, but we shouldn't want instinct to be extinguished
altogether. It has led to a LOT of problems, including bottle
feeding, "cry-it-out" advice, spanking...

Try to see people's interactions as part of a partly-inevitable way
that primates behave.

-=-A lot of people thought my sister was snotty, but really she just
had a really high standard of who she wanted to spend her time with,
not just anyone would do-=-

Isn't that the definition of (not a nice word, but...) "snotty"? (I
think "snooty" might be better. And snooty means looking down your
nose at others for whatever reason.)

-=-One time Sandra said something very similar to the above, and I
knew she was right. I had to stop looking in the homeschool arena,
and look elsewhere, which was less convenient and much harder.-=-

My kids liked being with kids who accepted and shared their
interests. Sometimes they were also unschoolers and that was cool.



Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> Moms can help or hurt with that. If you describe it to her as you
> just did with us, that will make it worse.

These are mostly her descriptions, not mine. I really like most people,
there have only been 2 people in my entire life that I really didn't
like. I can see the good in everyone and find beauty in anyone.


> Any of those behaviors can be avoided or amended, or overcome by
> courtesy, but we shouldn't want instinct to be extinguished
> altogether. It has led to a LOT of problems, including bottle
> feeding, "cry-it-out" advice, spanking...
>
> Try to see people's interactions as part of a partly-inevitable way
> that primates behave.

I think that she is keenly aware of this and doesn't like to play that
game. Perhaps it's a learning curve thing. One on one she is open to
most people. She's really a very kind a gentle person, but within her,
she anguishes over social things like this. She wants to fit in and
find her groove, but doesn't seem to connect to many.


>
> -=-A lot of people thought my sister was snotty, but really she just
> had a really high standard of who she wanted to spend her time with,
> not just anyone would do-=-
>
> Isn't that the definition of (not a nice word, but...) "snotty"? (I
> think "snooty" might be better. And snooty means looking down your
> nose at others for whatever reason.)


Maybe. It wasn't that she didn't like people or that she felt people
were inherintly bad, or that she was too good for them. It had more to
do with who she was willing to invest time and energy in and who she
wasn't. I never viewed my sister as snotty or snooty, she was sad and
shy and didn't venture out socially into arenas that made her
uncomfortable.

I'm having a hard time explaining this. I do see similarities in
Chamille, only Chamille is more self aware and more open and receptive
and friendly. I'm very much not like this, so I am trying to explain
how this looks and feels based on what I've seen.

Sandra Dodd

-=-> Try to see people's interactions as part of a partly-inevitable way
> that primates behave.

I think that she is keenly aware of this and doesn't like to play that
game.-=-



My point is that it isn't a game. It's natural human behavior.

Are you saying, maybe, that she's not good at interpersonal
situations? She could use coaching or encouragement. Telling her
it's an irritating game she can opt out of doesn't seem helpful to me.

I know someone whose life would be worlds better if her parents
hadn't told her she was smarter than everyone else and that's why
they didn't like her, because they were just jealous.

Whether the words are yours or someone else's, you chose them to
express the situation, so to some extent that is the way you perceive
it.

She's young and might just not be ready to interact in those ways. I
think maybe having friends who are older and younger might help,
instead of "same age" for a while.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-My point is that it isn't a game. It's natural human behavior.-=-
-=-I
think maybe having friends who are older and younger might help,
instead of "same age" for a while.-=-



Responding to myself.

It's natural human behavior, but usually age and experience make the
hierarchy clear and sensible. When same-age kids are thrust together
they create the hierarchy based on other things, which will end up
seeming like bullying (or BEing bullying, in some cases).

People are rarely equal in a situation, and the precedence changes
depending on the activity and the situation and the people present.
But that's not a game.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> You could say, "I'd like to go check it out if you're willing
> to go along with me."

That actually never occurred to me, but it sounds like a great idea.
And I could even go without her if it would help her feel like I'd be
finding out ahead of time what to expect.

> Too much to support a lonely child? I don't know what your "too
> much" is - but it might be that you have to step outside your own
> comfort zone a little more.

I know! I know! I have great difficulty balancing the needs of
everyone in my family. My son has a best friend who lives almost an
hour away. It's not really the distance that makes the difference,
but rather how I can fit that activity in the family schedule. And
yes, I know realize I wasn't opening myself to new activities that I
saw happening more than an hour away from my home. And of course now
my job hours are going to interfere with the freedom of having the
whole day open. After this coming week, I'll be working 11am to 2pm
every day.

> You've sounded more "flat" and noticeably down lately, Beth. Are
> there other things going on that are bringing your energy and
> positivity down a little? Are you more tired than usual from
> working, maybe?

Yes, I've been tired from my lifestyle change. Not only working
outside the home, I am still the transportation provider for most of
the kids activities. My dd16 isn't a driver yet because she doesn't
want to be and I don't want to rush her. My working hours have me
getting home after 6:30pm and it's not been easy. But I'm changing
those hours to be more flexible.

I started working because I wanted to pursue something that is really
dear to my heart. I don't have alot of interests as I tend to have a
more narrow focus for my energies. My son Jeffrey takes after me in
that respect. I've been very bored at home, just laying on the sofa
watching tv and playing on my laptop or reading books. I absolutely
love little children. I love singing kid songs and playing kid
games. I love Dora the Explorer and Barney. I love the alphabet and
simple counting, building block towers, playing with kitchen toys,
crawling on my hands and knees as pretend animals, and just generally
being immersed in a young child's world. I got a job in a one-year
old room at a childcare center and I've loved it! But I've also felt
guilty because I felt like I was putting my needs above my family's
needs. My family has been supportive and thankfully the center is
also helpful in finding a work schedule that will be a happy
compromise for everyone.

> Sometimes kids need us to help them over some kind of "hump"
> that is looking insurmountable to them.

That's exactly what I've been trying to do. I believe she sees
school as her only possibility right now. By yesterday afternoon,
she reached a point where she was no longer listening to my
suggestions and told me I wasn't being supportive of her desire to go
back into school. So I made an appt. for Wed. morning to complete
the paperwork to get her back into school. She'll start Thursday
morning. My DH and I have talked and have a clear understanding that
she will stay as long as she wants to stay and knows she can come
home at any time. My DH is the kind of person who feels that once a
decision like this is made, the person ought to stick it out. So I
felt like I better be very clear that I wasn't going to go into this
with that attitude.

And Allie is very excited about school. She went through her closet
yesterday to see what clothes she can wear and has made a list of
things she'd like to purchase this weekend. She's set her alarm
clock for this morning so she can begin waking up earlier each day.
I guess there's still a part of me that is hoping she'll change her
mind by Thursday. But I will be positive and supportive of her
choice and help her as she needs me, like I do with anything else she
shows an interest in doing.

Beth M.

carnationsgalore

Beth wrote:
>> I've been on my local homeschooling groups and can't find many
>> people in my area who have children my age.

and Pam wrote:
> It doesn't take "many" - just one.

Yes, true. In an earlier post, I mentioned she had two unschooled
friends and someone else pointed out that friends didn't have to be
unschoolers. Those were the only two friends she's made. In the last
homeschool group we were in, the oldest girl was 3 years younger than
her. There were a few little girls younger than that one. It was
mostly boys who didn't like girls playing with them, much to Allie's
disappointment. I feel that experience, along with not finding a
friend in the homeschool classes she took, has given her a bleak
outlook.

Specifically, she wants a friend that she can see at least twice a week
but would enjoy even more time than that. School has been the only
place that has met that need of hers.

Beth M.