diana jenner

I'm really at a loss & need some *strewing* of loving ways to handle
Hayden's cries of "I CAN'T CHOOSE!!!!" when confronted with choices that are
equally *good* in his mind.
Last week, it was his 10th birthday cake. I have 3 specialties and none
sounded good; we got out the cookbook and perused the options. One moment
we're discussing cake flavors and the next, he's in the throes of upset
because he "can't choose." He cries out "Help me mom!!!" and I breathe and
I ask "what does my help look like?" and he doesn't know and this only
increases his angst... In that situation, I breathed and breathed and let
him be, while I let him know that I was still available (by rubbing his back
or just sitting close). While his mind is stuck on "I can't choose" my mind
is stuck on "I don't know how to help you!!" -- which leads us both away
from one another, away from the answer and doesn't at all feel supportive
and loving. (especially when mom says, "for goodness sake, it's a BIRTHDAY
CAKE it's supposed to make you HAPPY, not miserable!!! -- oops!)
Last night, some unschoolin' teens were in town for the night. Hayden was
*so* excited that they called him on his phone :D he immediately asked me
for a ride and made plans to see them. After hanging up, he realized he was
awaiting two calls on Skype. "Should I Stay or Should I Go" was the theme
song of the evening. He was literally writhing in the pain of this choice.
He didn't want to disappoint anyone and he didn't want to miss ANYthing. He
cried and cried and wailed "HELP me!!!" I offered gentle suggestions like
making a pros and cons list, flipping a coin (and changing your choice if
you're disappointed with the toss), visualizing himself in each situation -
which would make his heart sing loudest? -- all were met with sobs and more
"HEEEEELLLLPPPP MEEEEE"s. Scotty tried to intervene at one point, though he
was so crabby sounding, it felt like "ganging up" on an overwhelmed little
guy, so I asked him to help us foster peace, not more angst. The ultimate
result of this was him passing out, still upset, and missing both options!
And I still am empty of ideas, full of worthless guilt and not one stinking
(respectful & loving) idea :-/
You'd think I'd have some tricks up my sleeve, this isn't a new development
in him; I remember when I bought the whole "give your kids choices" mindset,
so instead of just picking out clothes for my 3 year old, I began asking
"red or blue" and he'd pick red and wonder/lament all day if blue was the
choice he shoulda made!
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Five or six small cakes.

Email/call the Skypers and reschedule.

Red AND blue. <G>

Sometimes we don't want a *choice*: sometimes we want it ALL! <BWG>


~Kelly, queen of wanting it all <g>

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

-----Original Message-----
From: diana jenner <hahamommy@...>


I'm really at a loss & need some *strewing* of loving ways to handle
Hayden's cries of "I CAN'T CHOOSE!!!!" when confronted with choices
that are
equally *good* in his mind.
Last week, it was his 10th birthday cake. I have 3 specialties and none
sounded good; we got out the cookbook and perused the options. One
moment
we're discussing cake flavors and the next, he's in the throes of upset
because he "can't choose." He cries out "Help me mom!!!" and I breathe
and
I ask "what does my help look like?" and he doesn't know and this only
increases his angst... In that situation, I breathed and breathed and
let
him be, while I let him know that I was still available (by rubbing his
back
or just sitting close). While his mind is stuck on "I can't choose" my
mind
is stuck on "I don't know how to help you!!" -- which leads us both away
from one another, away from the answer and doesn't at all feel
supportive
and loving. (especially when mom says, "for goodness sake, it's a
BIRTHDAY
CAKE it's supposed to make you HAPPY, not miserable!!! -- oops!)
Last night, some unschoolin' teens were in town for the night. Hayden
was
*so* excited that they called him on his phone :D he immediately asked
me
for a ride and made plans to see them. After hanging up, he realized he
was
awaiting two calls on Skype. "Should I Stay or Should I Go" was the
theme
song of the evening. He was literally writhing in the pain of this
choice.
He didn't want to disappoint anyone and he didn't want to miss
ANYthing. He
cried and cried and wailed "HELP me!!!" I offered gentle suggestions
like
making a pros and cons list, flipping a coin (and changing your choice
if
you're disappointed with the toss), visualizing himself in each
situation -
which would make his heart sing loudest? -- all were met with sobs and
more
"HEEEEELLLLPPPP MEEEEE"s. Scotty tried to intervene at one point,
though he
was so crabby sounding, it felt like "ganging up" on an overwhelmed
little
guy, so I asked him to help us foster peace, not more angst. The
ultimate
result of this was him passing out, still upset, and missing both
options!
And I still am empty of ideas, full of worthless guilt and not one
stinking
(respectful & loving) idea :-/
You'd think I'd have some tricks up my sleeve, this isn't a new
development
in him; I remember when I bought the whole "give your kids choices"
mindset,
so instead of just picking out clothes for my 3 year old, I began asking
"red or blue" and he'd pick red and wonder/lament all day if blue was
the
choice he shoulda made!

Robyn L. Coburn

I guess I usually try to ask myself, "How can we have both?" Could he make
the calls earlier and let his Skype friends know something unexpected came
up later? Could he have two cakes in different flavors or cupcakes in many
flavors? Often "having both" means more energy and work from Mom...is that
the wall he is hitting? To be honest, sometimes that is the wall that Jayn
comes up against with me. Sometimes I just need a few moments to change my
gears up to willingness to do more.

Sometimes my "help" inflames things and what helps most is my silence. I
never expected that keeping out of Jayn's thought process would be the best
thing to do, but sometimes it just is, expecially when otherwise she turns
on me with anger. My silence seems to allow her to listen to her own
clamoring thoughts instead of having to direct energy to filtering my voice.
Even when she has "asked" for help, usually it is just her thinking aloud
and not wanting my solution. Sometimes asking for help is her way of wanting
ideas specifically to reject.

Am I trying to help because of my need to be important to her or to rescue
her from her painful seeming thinking? Or is it because I can see an elegant
solution that is evidently escaping her?

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

> I'm really at a loss & need some *strewing* of loving ways to handle
> Hayden's cries of "I CAN'T CHOOSE!!!!" when confronted with choices that
> are
> equally *good* in his mind.

Paula Sjogerman

On Aug 27, 2008, at 2:18 PM, diana jenner wrote:

> One moment
> we're discussing cake flavors and the next, he's in the throes of
> upset
> because he "can't choose." He cries out "Help me mom!!!" and I
> breathe and
> I ask "what does my help look like?" and he doesn't know and this only
> increases his angst... In that situation, I breathed and breathed
> and let
> him be, while I let him know that I was still available (by rubbing
> his back
> or just sitting close). While his mind is stuck on "I can't choose"
> my mind
> is stuck on "I don't know how to help you!!" -- which leads us both
> away
> from one another, away from the answer and doesn't at all feel
> supportive
> and loving. (especially when mom says, "for goodness sake, it's a
> BIRTHDAY
> CAKE it's supposed to make you HAPPY, not miserable!!! -- oops!)


BTDT. I like Kelly's answer, but here's another: sometimes, if you
make the choice for them, it gives enough clarity for them to then
breathe and make another decision for themselves. So if you say "I'll
make the chocolate cake," he can either think "great" or "oh wait, I
don't want chocolate, I want banana."

When Quinn was younger, he would often be that way about going
places. He liked what he was doing and he liked where we were going.
Sometimes I'd say, "ok we'll stay" and that was enough for him to
feel like the pressure of deciding was off and he then he was free to
say "no let's go." Or not.

At first, I was worried that I sounded too coercive, but a friend of
mine who knows Quinn said that she could easily see how too many
choices would be overwhelming - Quinn can take in a LOT of data at
once. And it was true.

He's not so much that way anymore at (almost) 15.

Paula

Paula

Sandra Dodd

-=-I offered gentle suggestions like
making a pros and cons list, flipping a coin (and changing your
choice if
you're disappointed with the toss), visualizing himself in each
situation -
which would make his heart sing loudest? -=-



Well, that second one was going to be my recommendation.



Maybe he was so tired that "pass out" was the best option, but it
does seem sad that he missed both.

Sorry it was a rough night. When he's chipper and bright, ask him
then to help you figure out ways to decide next time. Maybe...

Magic 8 ball

Open a book (Bible, Shakespeare, a Sinfest collection...) randomly
and read something and see if it suggests an answer.

Throw a dart at a map and if the thing it hits is closer
alphabetically to one or the other option, go with that (or against
that, if the disappointment is apparent).



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> Five or six small cakes.
>
> Email/call the Skypers and reschedule.
>
> Red AND blue. <G>
>
> Sometimes we don't want a *choice*: sometimes we want it ALL! <BWG>
>
>
> ~Kelly, queen of wanting it all <g>


Last night at about 1am Margaux says she's hungry. I was already in
bed but her dad wasn't and he was willing to make her something, which
was very sweet because I wasn't. My answer to those late night
requests are that she can go into the kitchen and get whatever she
wants, but I'm not up for making a meal at 1am after I've already gone
to bed.

She absolutely wouldn't tell her dad what she wanted to eat. She kept
asking what her choices where. Her dad and I kept rattling off choices
and she kept saying "no, what else is there, I want to know ALL my
choices.". She wanted a run down on every single food item in the
house and what could be made from them. Dad wasn't willing to make
that sort of from scratch thing.

She was upset about all of it, got upset with us for not accomadating
her needs which seemed really unreasonable at 1am in the morning. So,
it ended with me saying that clearly she wasn't all that hungry if
NOTHING would satisfy that need that she felt for food. Her dad
brought her a popcycle, which she ate it and then fell asleep.

She seems to like impossible scenarios and making it so there is
seemingly no solution. It's frustrating for everyone, especially her.
I'm pretty sure she'll learn better coping tools for general
dissatisfaction which is what seems to spur it on.

When she usually says she's hungry and she doesn't know what she wants,
I run down a list of possibles based on various food qualities,
like "are you in the mood for sweet, salty, warm, cold, fruity, meaty,
bready, etc..?" That usually works because she can get a sense of what
she is really craving without comitting to a particular food or
prepared dish. It is generally someting else bugging her when she
can't pin down that, like in the case of last nights hungry/unsatisfied
dilema.

She likes buffets because she can try it all! Sometimes it is that she
really does want it all, she really doesn't want to choose.

J Geller

I was listening to the song "Watershed" by the Indigo Girls and then this post topic came up.
Up on the watershed
Standing at the fork in the road
You can stand there and agonize
Till your agonys your heaviest load
Youll never fly as the crow flies
Get used to a country mile
When youre learning to face
The path at your pace
Every choice is worth your while

I was humming that to myself the other day while I was waiting for my son to make a choice. It made me think of how lucky we are that we get to make so many choices in our lives. I love what someone said, I think on this list? Sandra maybe? about making each choice to get you moving in the direction that you want to go. But for the other choices, that don't matter and don't go anywhere, the last three lines of this song resonate with me.
Jae

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Wilkinson

With the cakes, I may have told my preference and why, to help
highlight one over another.. Or maybe asked if he wanted me to suprise
him. (then probably make all three cause I would be afraid of
dissappointement from the birthday boy ;-).
With the friend/skype thing, I would have again, probably told him what
I thought was the better plan and why. Not so he would choose it, but
so he would have something to bounce ideas off of.

Joanna W.

diana jenner

On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Paula Sjogerman <sjogy@...>wrote:

> When Quinn was younger, he would often be that way about going
> places. He liked what he was doing and he liked where we were going.
> Sometimes I'd say, "ok we'll stay" and that was enough for him to
> feel like the pressure of deciding was off and he then he was free to
> say "no let's go." Or not.
>
> .
>
>
>

I swear it's like throwing out the question here has left me *so* open to
solutions :) Yesterday at the park, we had a very similar moment. We had 3
extra boys planning to go bowling with us after the park... suddenly Hayden
realizes his one special friend won't be able to come bowling with us. He
just wants to go home. The boys (who's mothers have left the park) really
want to bowl; I had a chance to gather the three of them together and
explain that Hayden changed his mind and if we could all support him in
making our time at home fun, he just may decide to go bowling afterall.
Sure enough, after gathering extra Xbox controllers and games, we're just
about home and Hayden pipes up "hey, I thought we were going bowling!" The
other boys laughed, which made Hayden laugh, which led to us really talking
about what they wanted from their time together -- time together :D No one
much cared what we did or where, so we continued home and had the most
social day in months!! :)
At the peak of his own angst, H sat in the car alone... not in a sulky way
nor in an angry way... I let him be. When we packed up to join him, he was
unable to say goodbye to anyone. Once he realized no one was upset about the
change in plans, nor about his upset, he called out "BYE!!!!" as we drove
away.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Gosh this has been such a helpful thread for me. This stuff is Karl to a
tee. He just feels soooo responsible it's overwhelming. Asking him to make
choices is fraught with about a gazillion consequences to his way of
thinking.

Thanks for starting this thread. I needed to hear the responses. It's
great!

~Katherine




On 8/28/08, diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Paula Sjogerman <sjogy@...<sjogy%40sbcglobal.net>
> >wrote:
>
> > When Quinn was younger, he would often be that way about going
> > places. He liked what he was doing and he liked where we were going.
> > Sometimes I'd say, "ok we'll stay" and that was enough for him to
> > feel like the pressure of deciding was off and he then he was free to
> > say "no let's go." Or not.
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
>
> I swear it's like throwing out the question here has left me *so* open to
> solutions :) Yesterday at the park, we had a very similar moment. We had 3
> extra boys planning to go bowling with us after the park... suddenly Hayden
> realizes his one special friend won't be able to come bowling with us. He
> just wants to go home. The boys (who's mothers have left the park) really
> want to bowl; I had a chance to gather the three of them together and
> explain that Hayden changed his mind and if we could all support him in
> making our time at home fun, he just may decide to go bowling afterall.
> Sure enough, after gathering extra Xbox controllers and games, we're just
> about home and Hayden pipes up "hey, I thought we were going bowling!" The
> other boys laughed, which made Hayden laugh, which led to us really talking
> about what they wanted from their time together -- time together :D No one
> much cared what we did or where, so we continued home and had the most
> social day in months!! :)
> At the peak of his own angst, H sat in the car alone... not in a sulky way
> nor in an angry way... I let him be. When we packed up to join him, he was
> unable to say goodbye to anyone. Once he realized no one was upset about
> the
> change in plans, nor about his upset, he called out "BYE!!!!" as we drove
> away.
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.blogspot.com
> hannahsashes.blogspot.com
> dianas365.blogspot.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

Thursday 4.30pm in Weatherford (the place with the public kitchen). It
follows James' presentation at 3.30.

Historically they have run out of time, and scheduled a second meeting for
another time.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

Robyn is talking about the Secret Society of Unschooling Dads, here,
and I guess talking about the Live and Learn conference:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
Thursday 4.30pm in Weatherford (the place with the public kitchen). It
follows James' presentation at 3.30.

Historically they have run out of time, and scheduled a second
meeting for
another time.

=====================================================



So Robyn, if you meant to put that on a different list, it came to
AlwaysLearning.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

Oh sorry! Wrong list... Thanks Sandra, I'll repost there.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Cindi Sanchez

>
I've encountered this type of situation many times with my daughter
and I was reading something recently that helped me see it from a
different perspective.

The idea is that everyone likes to be noticed, and known, and really
truly *seen* by other people, and part of that knowing is paying
close attention to their likes and dislikes.

In the case of the birthday cake, maybe it would be more fun to
say "let me surprise you" and make the choice based what you *know*
he likes. Then when the day comes, he may notice that you've deeply
thought about him, and that feels really good. Maybe that's the kind
of help he's asking for. Relief from the responsibility of choosing.

The after midnight meal situation (from the other post)has happened
many times in our house, and we've finally figured out that I (or my
husband) will only give maybe 2 or 3 options of food that we know
they like and we are truly happy to make at that hour. If those are
rejected, then the kids are free to get something for themselves.
Trotting out the list of all things possible is too much, and only
leads to frustration. I try to keep some easy, pre-made and/or no-
prep stuff on hand because I know from experience that my kids will
just go without if it's too much trouble for them to make something.

Sometimes making choices seems more like a big burden that involves
other people and their wants and needs, not just a simple "what do
*you* want?".

It sounds like the homeschooling teens coming to town was a really
big deal, and maybe the Skype friends might be more of a regular
thing, so if you know that to be true, maybe don't present it as an
equal choice. Know that he would probably choose to hang with the
teens (if that's true) and help him make that happen. I might have
helped him call those friends and tell them the truth in a sweet and
considerate way.

Sometimes it seems like wide open options like making pro/con lists
are too much information to consider when you are stressed already,
or random ones like tossing a coin are unsatisfying because the
specific concerns, like potentially dissapointing some friends, are
not being addressed and are only left to chance.

Cindi