carnationsgalore

I'm also on the unschooling basics list and someone replied to a post
with what I considered to be a thought that doesn't connect to what I
think unschooling is about. In another note, she said that list and
others like it don't own the idea of unschooling and that there are
different degrees of unschooling.

I thought I remembered this very thing discussed on this list not too
long ago. I know people can make up any definitions they want, but I'm
not so sure about the idea of different degrees of unschooling.

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-In another note, she said that list and
others like it don't own the idea of unschooling and that there are
different degrees of unschooling. -=-



She's right.

Someone who spent six hours a day (only 180 days a year) encouraging
their children to learn school subjects in creative and individual
and non-schoolish ways could say "unschooling" and it would be true.

They wouldn't be unschooling as well as our family did (in my opinion
and experience), but they would be unschooling.

There is unschooling that barely cuts it and unschooling that
transforms families.

I have unfinished collections of different unschooling "degrees" and
facets. (I guess my whole site is an unfinished collection, but
these might be even more unfinished than other parts.)

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/marginal.html

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/vsRelaxedHomeschooling.html

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/radical.html



and here's something on Stages of Unschooling

http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages



I don't know that this will be clarifying or just more confusing. No
guarantees. <g>



Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

graberamy

I'm enjoying this thread. I've wondered since my children are
deciding to give school a try this year, if I can still consider
myself an unschooler?? Part of me wishes they chose to stay home,
wonder what I could have done differently for them to desire to stay
home. But they are wanting to do this so I feel like I want to
support them 100%! I could take a negative stance and tell them how I
think that school is not the most conducive place to learn about life
(but they know that I feel that way). But I don't want to be negative
about their choices.

It's quite an adjustment for me. I had a conversation with Lydia today
and took your advice Sandra and said that schools can create a
distance between some parents and that is one of my worries. It was a
good conversation.

Even though it's not compulsory for them, I wonder if what we are
doing is still unschooling? I shouldn't worry about what I am
considered though, and just realize that I'm trying to make their life
happy and support their choices.

We took our paperwork in and the principal again asked me if I wanted
to have Lydia "tested" for "enrichment". I'm so bad and just had to
say "don't all kids deserve enrichment?" :)! I said we'll just see
how things go and see what she wants to do.

Now my concern, worry, apprehension (I don't even know what I'm
feeling) is... what if she does like it?? Do some kids go to school
by choice and actually enjoy being there? Will she eventually realize
what a waste of time it is?? I should probably be working on getting
rid of these negative attitudes of mine towards school??

This is difficult. Has anyone else been through this??

Thanks for listening,
amy g
iowa
>
> -=-In another note, she said that list and
> others like it don't own the idea of unschooling and that there are
> different degrees of unschooling. -=-
>
>

Joanna Murphy

I've wondered since my children are
> deciding to give school a try this year, if I can still consider
> myself an unschooler??

I'm thinking that your children can't be both schooled and unschooled, but that you can
continue to practice respectful parenting, which may be, in my opinion, more important to
recognize than to spend your energy pondering the other. Your parenting doesn't have to
change, which means that your children still get to have their own voices in their own lives
and have your support and advice in creating their experiences.
>
> It's quite an adjustment for me. I had a conversation with Lydia today
> and took your advice Sandra and said that schools can create a
> distance between some parents and that is one of my worries. It was a
> good conversation.

The conversations are where the magic happens in our family. Connections are made,
seeds are planted, understanding is fostered. These can continue no matter what.
>
> Now my concern, worry, apprehension (I don't even know what I'm
> feeling) is... what if she does like it?? Do some kids go to school
> by choice and actually enjoy being there?

It's been my experience so far that when children want to go to school it is for social
reasons, and I do know some that don't like the school but do like the social life, and i
know one girl who likes the school work as well--but she is in a family where the mom
took a much more passive role, even when her children have asked for opportunities.

Will she eventually realize
> what a waste of time it is?? I should probably be working on getting
> rid of these negative attitudes of mine towards school??

I did find school to be a waste of time. The actual time I spent waiting for things was
mind-blowing. I've always been one of the first to finish any task in a group setting, so I'd
sit and wait and wait and wonder why I was always waiting.

I get that you don't want to have constant conflict with your kids over their choices, but it
also seems insincere to try to "get rid of these negative attitudes.." If your attitudes are
beliefs that you hold based on research or experience, then getting rid of them to avoid
conflict probably isn't modeling what you really want to for your children. Maybe you can
find a way to hold your own beliefs, but put supporting their desire to try school as
number 1. That seems fair to me.

Good luck with your transition, Joanna

Melissa Dietrick

You might enjoy this blog post by a unschooled teen that just finished
his first year of highschool...

http://fivefreebirds.blogspot.com/2008/07/unschool-v-school.html

melissa
--- In [email protected], "graberamy" <graber@...> wrote:
>
> I'm enjoying this thread. I've wondered since my children are
> deciding to give school a try this year, if I can still consider
> myself an unschooler?? Part of me wishes they chose to stay home,
> wonder what I could have done differently for them to desire to stay
> home. But they are wanting to do this so I feel like I want to
> support them 100%!

Sandra Dodd

-=-Do some kids go to school by choice and actually enjoy being
there? -=-


Sure. If they have a choice, why would they keep going if they
didn't enjoy being there?

-=-I get that you don't want to have constant conflict with your kids
over their choices, but it also seems insincere to try to "get rid of
these negative attitudes.." If your attitudes are beliefs that you
hold based on research or experience, then getting rid of them to
avoid conflict probably isn't modeling what you really want to for
your children.-=-

I disagree with Joanna on this one. If people couldn't get over
their negative attitudes, how would they ever change?

If a parent's aversion to school is the only reason for unschooling,
that's less solid than if the parent untangles her own hurts and
fears and sees natural learning as a positive thing, not just the
avoidance of a 20-year-old spectre in the mom. That's not the only
thing school avoidance can be, but it is sometimes that: the mom
wants to relive her own life through her children, and she hated
school, so she will "spare them" from school whether they want that
or not.

A mom who is happy and hopeful and fun is way better to be with than
a mom who frets and worries and reminds kids that school is
horrible. School might be better than that.

I'm not saying that's the case here, it's just that that *can* be the
case, sometimes.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

graberamy

Thanks for sharing that...funny thing, right after I wrote here last
night I peeked at one of my friends blogs and she had that on there!
It did help to read it! But I didn't actually see his blog!

I think both my kids might enjoy seeing his blog!

Very cool!
amy g
iowa

--- In [email protected], "Melissa Dietrick"
<melissa.dietrick@...> wrote:
>
> You might enjoy this blog post by a unschooled teen that just finished
> his first year of highschool...
>
> http://fivefreebirds.blogspot.com/2008/07/unschool-v-school.html
>
> melissa
> --- In [email protected], "graberamy" <graber@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm enjoying this thread. I've wondered since my children are
> > deciding to give school a try this year, if I can still consider
> > myself an unschooler?? Part of me wishes they chose to stay home,
> > wonder what I could have done differently for them to desire to stay
> > home. But they are wanting to do this so I feel like I want to
> > support them 100%!
>

graberamy

> A mom who is happy and hopeful and fun is way better to be with than
> a mom who frets and worries and reminds kids that school is
> horrible. School might be better than that.>>>

I know you're just discussing here (I put the ball in play) but I
wanted to mention that I really liked school...so that may be why I
fear she may like it??:)

I don't think school is this awful place, I think for some people it's
better than home. However, I don't think it's the best place to be,
or the best way to learn about living and life and stuff!

Also, I"m mostly bummed cause I just won't see her as much (she's in
activities 4-5 nights a week and loves to hang out with friends too!
I was just really enjoying our days!!

I think Lydia has a pretty great attitude about it. Her younger
neighbor friend was "quizzing her" and noticed Lydia didn't have the
greatest cursive skills. She told her she wouldn't be promoted to 7th
grade if she couldn't write cursive. Lydia came home and said "in the
real world does it REALLY matter if you can write cursive Mom?!" We
both had a good laugh!

amy g
iowa



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Do some kids go to school by choice and actually enjoy being
> there? -=-
>
>
> Sure. If they have a choice, why would they keep going if they
> didn't enjoy being there?
>
> -=-I get that you don't want to have constant conflict with your kids
> over their choices, but it also seems insincere to try to "get rid of
> these negative attitudes.." If your attitudes are beliefs that you
> hold based on research or experience, then getting rid of them to
> avoid conflict probably isn't modeling what you really want to for
> your children.-=-
>
> I disagree with Joanna on this one. If people couldn't get over
> their negative attitudes, how would they ever change?
>
> If a parent's aversion to school is the only reason for unschooling,
> that's less solid than if the parent untangles her own hurts and
> fears and sees natural learning as a positive thing, not just the
> avoidance of a 20-year-old spectre in the mom. That's not the only
> thing school avoidance can be, but it is sometimes that: the mom
> wants to relive her own life through her children, and she hated
> school, so she will "spare them" from school whether they want that
> or not.
>

>
> I'm not saying that's the case here, it's just that that *can* be the
> case, sometimes.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

lauermjkd1

> -=-Do some kids go to school by choice and actually enjoy being
> there? -=-
>

My daughter, now 15, struggled with her decision to go back to school.
She went for a semester in 6th grade and a class or two each year after
that until high school. Last year, she decided to go back to school
full-time and, for the most part, is pleased with her decision.
It was hard for me to support her decision to go back to school, even
though I loved school as a kid. What I had to do was recognize that
these were her choices, and while I could empathize with the inevitable
frustrations, I had to stop saying "you know you could just stay
home." She knows that and has made a choice to go to school. It's my
job, as her mom, to be supportive and to keep the lines of
communication open by listening, helping her problem solve, etc. I had
to make sure I was supporting her decisions and not trying to undermine
them, ykwim?
It's hard to have her gone every day - I miss her so much! Her
decision to go back to school wasn't a reflection on "home" or "me."
So, some kids to choose to go to school and are happy there. My
daugher has decided that it is worth it to put up with the inevitable
frustrations. Her life, her choices.

carnationsgalore

> I'm enjoying this thread. I've wondered since my children are
> deciding to give school a try this year, if I can still consider
> myself an unschooler??

I've been through that and I still felt like an unschooler. The key
for me was supporting my children, not supporting the school system.
We talked about the rules at school and consequences of not following
them. I always let my children make the choices though. I helped
them see things from many angles.

My youngest daughter went to public school for all of 3rd grade. I
was sure she'd tire of it after a few months and want to come back
home. I was really surprised that she stayed all year. She even
chose to go back for 4th grade. After one month of 4th grade, Allie
decided school wasn't meeting her needs anymore and she came back
home.

My oldest daughter has always been in school. Her father and I are
divorced which adds an element of challenge to parenting. She's
lived with me for the past 2 years, attending the local public high
school. My parenting style is so very different from her dad's and
so her school experience has been different. I give her complete
freedom to make choices. Her dad would manipulate her into doing
things he felt was best for her.

> But I don't want to be negative about their choices.

It's hard not to be negative if your personal experiences have been
negative. But remember that you are likely raising your children
differently than you were raised. They are approaching all things
with a different attitude than you likely did. Their experience at
school might just be like any other experience such as taking a
class, joining a club, or just trying something new. The other kids
at school have no choice to be there. Your children do have a
choice. My children always knew when they were in school that they
could leave at any time.

> Now my concern, worry, apprehension (I don't even know what I'm
> feeling) is... what if she does like it?? Do some kids go to
> school by choice and actually enjoy being there? Will she
> eventually realize what a waste of time it is??

Been there, done that. I had to remove myself from their
experience. I think my kids know when something is a waste of time.
Until they feel that way though, it's not a waste. It's an
experience just like anything else they may try. My feelings were
actually hurt when Allie didn't want to quit 3rd grade. I really
couldn't understand what she was getting from being at school. But
then again, I'm not walking in her shoes. As long as things were
working out for her and she was feeling good, that meant things were
going well. She did reach a point where she felt school was no
longer meeting her needs. But she also freely admits that she may
not be finished with school. She knows she doesn't want to go this
year which would be her 5th grade year, but she has an interest in
trying middle school and high school. We just take it one year at a
time.

Beth M.

carnationsgalore

> There is unschooling that barely cuts it and unschooling that
> transforms families.

Yes, I guess I do see that. It's taken me longer than I imagined to
come to terms with unschooling and now that I'm not struggling uphill
with it anymore, I guess I'm starting to see things differently. When
I first learned about unschooling, I was stuck on the academics part.
I knew I didn't like formal learning and wanted help letting that go.
I remember thinking how difficult that was while going through it, but
in hindsight that was much easier than learning to trust my children in
all other areas beyond academics. It was a natural progression for me
that if I trusted my children in some areas, why shouldn't I be
trusting them in all areas? I kept hearing all the voices spoken to me
over the years about how children need to be guided and taught how to
do everything because they were incapable of doing anything on their
own that didn't personally benefit them. Heck, I still hear those
voices from family members who just don't understand the way I
understand.

Beth M.

Ren Allen

~~> You might enjoy this blog post by a unschooled teen that just
finished his first year of highschool...~~

I know I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I feel the need to brag
apparently.;)

Kevin is my nephew! I remember when he was very tiny and my sister was
feeling a lot of pressure from the family to send him to school. I
talked her into homeschooling him for kindergarten, much to the dismay
of several family members!

They never looked back. All of her children are happily unschooled.
They were at the St. Louis conference...some of you may remember
meeting them.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Joanna Murphy

> If a parent's aversion to school is the only reason for unschooling,
> that's less solid than if the parent untangles her own hurts and
> fears and sees natural learning as a positive thing, not just the
> avoidance of a 20-year-old spectre in the mom.

I totally agree with that. I was interpreting O.P's statement differently. A negative attitude
might come from hurts and fears, or it might have come from a genuine belief that natural
learning is better than a school situation. The "negative" attatched to that might be
coming from the fact that now her kids want to do the school thing, which is in conflict
with what mom might think is best. So it might just be a negative because it's not in
agreement, and for some women not being aligned in agreement can feel negative for it's
own sake.

If mom works hard to change her mind about something just to be in agreement and
create harmony, even though it's not what she really thinks, I thought that would be
insincere, and I thought there might be other ways to approach it that could also create
harmony.

It still, for me, comes back to mom looking into where her attitudes are coming from, and
then finding ways to have harmony that allow everyone space to think and feel what is real
for them.

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was interpreting O.P's statement differently. A negative attitude
might come from hurts and fears, or it might have come from a genuine
belief that natural
learning is better than a school situation.-=-

Okay. I understand your statement, then. I had assumed it was
school negativity behind the fears.



But in any case, if a child has no choice to be at home, or at
school, it's different from having a choice!



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I know you're just discussing here (I put the ball in play) but I
wanted to mention that I really liked school...so that may be why I
fear she may like it??:)-=-



Well okay, then, I guessed wrong. <g>

Holly seriously considered school. She used to ask me to drive her
to the Middle School in our district and park with a good view of the
door just before they let out. She would watch all the kids come
out. A couple of them she knew. One day she sat on a bench when
Cameron Lovejoy was in town. We went to the house for me to go to
the bathroom or some such (less than a mile away) and came and parked
and waited for her to be through sitting and being surrounded by
schoolkids.

She was fascinated by the backpacks and the books and the
interactions, and how tired or excited they seemed to be--outfits and
emotions. Her regular interests. <g>



I do remember at the time that my biggest concern was that if she
wanted to go, her handwriting would be a problem. Not reading or
understanding or math, but she had no cursive and her printing was slow.



It's much nicer now. (She's sixteen and would have been in 10th
grade/sophomore if she had gone this year.)



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amanda Horein

-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Also, I"m mostly bummed cause I just won't see her as much (she's in
activities 4-5 nights a week and loves to hang out with friends too!
I was just really enjoying our days!!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I could be wrong, but it sounds like you are bummed about "losing your
little girl". My mom went through this with me. I was 17 and in my junior
year of high school though. It was rough on me because she just wanted to
hold on and I just wanted to live my life like I had been living it (I had
tons of freedom and independence as a child/young adult).

I know this is hard in the moment, but 10 years later my mom and I are still
really close. Our relationship didn't suffer. It evolved.

--
Amanda
http://hopescreations.blogspot.com/
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/
http://365daysofsparkle.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lyndaquincunx

For us I think how the child feels about school is the key thing. DS
tried it out for a year because he'd had positive experiences with
formal academic study with the Open University (UK based distance
learning, but with optional tutorials once a month or so). I think he
was hoping for something that was a cross between the tutorials &
Scouts! He's interested in physics as a career, so some sort of
academic study is going to be needed somewhere. The difference is that
its all his choice. He tells me what he wants to do & I try to help
him find ways to make that happen. We're working on a home chemistry
lab so he can do more hands on experiments. For some things we utilise
courses as a resource.

For us the defining thing is 'how would I/we react if one of our
children said they didn't want to do xyz?' rather than what they're
learning about. My kids learn a lot by helping me do stuff, or by
wanting to copy what I'm doing, but is it any less unschooling if what
they copy is algebra rather than baking?

Ok, I'm going to stop rambling now because I need some sleep.

Lynda

k

I went to school (like most unschooling parents) and so seldom used the
regular version of cursive. Didn't like the way it looked, especially my
scrawly attempts at it. I do a block version of cursive writing which I
like much better and even in school it seemed to be fine.

~Katherine



On 7/30/08, graberamy <graber@...> wrote:
>
> > A mom who is happy and hopeful and fun is way better to be with than
> > a mom who frets and worries and reminds kids that school is
> > horrible. School might be better than that.>>>
>
> I know you're just discussing here (I put the ball in play) but I
> wanted to mention that I really liked school...so that may be why I
> fear she may like it??:)
>
> I don't think school is this awful place, I think for some people it's
> better than home. However, I don't think it's the best place to be,
> or the best way to learn about living and life and stuff!
>
> Also, I"m mostly bummed cause I just won't see her as much (she's in
> activities 4-5 nights a week and loves to hang out with friends too!
> I was just really enjoying our days!!
>
> I think Lydia has a pretty great attitude about it. Her younger
> neighbor friend was "quizzing her" and noticed Lydia didn't have the
> greatest cursive skills. She told her she wouldn't be promoted to 7th
> grade if she couldn't write cursive. Lydia came home and said "in the
> real world does it REALLY matter if you can write cursive Mom?!" We
> both had a good laugh!
>
> amy g
> iowa
>
> --- In [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> >
> > -=-Do some kids go to school by choice and actually enjoy being
> > there? -=-
> >
> >
> > Sure. If they have a choice, why would they keep going if they
> > didn't enjoy being there?
> >
> > -=-I get that you don't want to have constant conflict with your kids
> > over their choices, but it also seems insincere to try to "get rid of
> > these negative attitudes.." If your attitudes are beliefs that you
> > hold based on research or experience, then getting rid of them to
> > avoid conflict probably isn't modeling what you really want to for
> > your children.-=-
> >
> > I disagree with Joanna on this one. If people couldn't get over
> > their negative attitudes, how would they ever change?
> >
> > If a parent's aversion to school is the only reason for unschooling,
> > that's less solid than if the parent untangles her own hurts and
> > fears and sees natural learning as a positive thing, not just the
> > avoidance of a 20-year-old spectre in the mom. That's not the only
> > thing school avoidance can be, but it is sometimes that: the mom
> > wants to relive her own life through her children, and she hated
> > school, so she will "spare them" from school whether they want that
> > or not.
> >
>
> >
> > I'm not saying that's the case here, it's just that that *can* be the
> > case, sometimes.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-She told her she wouldn't be promoted to 7th
grade if she couldn't write cursive. -=-

This is one of those teacher fibs.

If a child has already failed a grade (like so many poor little boys
who are kept back in first grade), it takes a lot for them to be kept
back a second time, and because of social considerations and legal
liabilities, as far as I know in any state in the U.S. (I could be
wrong, but not that I've heard yet) there is no such thing as failing
three grades. They don't want to be liable for physical or sexual
abuse by a child who is "too old" to be with those other children.

Increasingly, children are passed on to special ed teachers instead
of being kept back, if they've ever failed once.



(Jeez I hate writing about school... I almost feel dirty just having
pulled out my teacher-knowledge.)



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]