Amanda Horein

I have a couple of issues (though that doesn't really feel like the right
word).

First, my youngest , Lilly (4.5) seems to need nearly constant engagement
and me, my husband, and my oldest don't seem to be able to fill that need.
My oldest never really wants to play with my youngest for whatever reason
(when asked she just says "I don't know") even though Lilly practically begs
her to play on a daily basis. It seems like we are wearing pretty thin with
Lilly's need for constant engagement and we are all getting kindda grumpy
with each other. I can't seem to think of many other options really as we
are really strapped for money right now (so we don't have extra for classes,
etc). I don't know what to do so I wanted to bounce ideas of ya'll.

Second, Marti (just turned 8), seems to want to be electronically engaged
(lol) most of the day, which wouldn't be a problem except that about the
time that it is time to get off the computer (when it's time to go upstairs
so that Lil and I can go to bed because we are morning people) is when she
wants to talk to us, jump on the bed, get her exercise, say all her words
for the day and tell stories. I am at a loss here. By then I have already
been playing with Lilly all day and I am near exhausted. I have no energy
left for her, which isn't fair to her, but I don't know how to work
with/around it. I can't ask her to get off the computer. I invite her to do
the different things that Lil and I do, but she declines most of the time
usually by snapping at us and saying "do I *have* to?"

--
Amanda
http://hopescreations.blogspot.com/
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/
http://365daysofsparkle.blogspot.com/


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Kim & Jim Studzinski

Sounds like you have similar dynamics in your household as I have in mine. The book Raising Your Spirited Child was recommended to me by a loving friend and advisor. I found it to be extremely helpful in understanding the differences in my children (and myself!). One of the principles of the book is determining if your child is an introvert or extrovert, which are terms used to describe how a child gets her energy (as opposed to how we think of the word in terms of being outgoing or not). It sounds like your younger daughter is an extrovert, and needs to be around other people to get her energy; whereas your younger daughter is an introvert who needs quiet time in order to recharge. It is not uncommon for an introvert to unload all her thoughts at bedtime. If that's the case with your older daughter, maybe you could work 15 or 20 minutes into your night time routine as her sharing time with you. As for your younger daughter, I can sympathize with how draining she can be! I found that if I participated in activities with my son (such as reading with him, or playing a game with him), he was pretty good at letting me have a little bit of quiet time (although he usually wants to be near me). In any event, Raising Your Spirited Child is a pretty popular book, so you'd probably be able to find it in your local library. It did wonders for me. I can't say it changed everything in our household, but it gave me insight into both of my children, and that alone was a gift!
Good luck!
Kim

----- Original Message -----
From: Amanda Horein
To: Always Learning
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 7:30 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Questions


I have a couple of issues (though that doesn't really feel like the right
word).

First, my youngest , Lilly (4.5) seems to need nearly constant engagement
and me, my husband, and my oldest don't seem to be able to fill that need.
My oldest never really wants to play with my youngest for whatever reason
(when asked she just says "I don't know") even though Lilly practically begs
her to play on a daily basis. It seems like we are wearing pretty thin with
Lilly's need for constant engagement and we are all getting kindda grumpy
with each other. I can't seem to think of many other options really as we
are really strapped for money right now (so we don't have extra for classes,
etc). I don't know what to do so I wanted to bounce ideas of ya'll.

Second, Marti (just turned 8), seems to want to be electronically engaged
(lol) most of the day, which wouldn't be a problem except that about the
time that it is time to get off the computer (when it's time to go upstairs
so that Lil and I can go to bed because we are morning people) is when she
wants to talk to us, jump on the bed, get her exercise, say all her words
for the day and tell stories. I am at a loss here. By then I have already
been playing with Lilly all day and I am near exhausted. I have no energy
left for her, which isn't fair to her, but I don't know how to work
with/around it. I can't ask her to get off the computer. I invite her to do
the different things that Lil and I do, but she declines most of the time
usually by snapping at us and saying "do I *have* to?"

--
Amanda
http://hopescreations.blogspot.com/
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/
http://365daysofsparkle.blogspot.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sherryfranklin150@...


Hi,
My kids are always asking questions in the car. Some I can answer, but a lot I can't. I always
tell them that we should google it when we get home, but most of the time we forget or the interest wanes. Would you recommend carrying a small notebook to jot the questions down?

Thanks,
Sherry

Sandra Dodd

-=- I always tell them that we should google it when we get home,-=-

Don't do anything "always."
Some questions don't need google.  They might need "What do you think?" or "Who do you think would know things like that?" or "Do you think there's any way to really know that?" or "Maybe the answer is different in different places," or "Maybe we can be on the lookout for more info about that."

Or "I used to think [this] about it, when I was a kid, but now I'm not sure."

-=-Would you recommend carrying a small notebook to jot the questions down?-=-

Not if you're trying to drive.  Not if it will keep you from speculation and conjecture and sharing what you do know, conversationally.

If something comes up in a conversation and then it doesn't come up again later, that's fine.  The tide comes in, leaves some stuff on the sand, and goes out; some things stay, some go back out.  All of it still exists—the sand, the shells, the water—they're all still there, just rearranging a bit.

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

It depends.
There are many things we can do other than write them down and there are many degrees of answer.
Sometimes you know a little and that is enough, sometimes kids want more information than what you want,

Now that my kids are older they  can use my phone to google it!!!!!

Sometimes we call someone to ask. I call my husband, my sister, friends!
We also discuss possibilities and what they think maybe the answer.

If you are driving you are not going to be able to write it down anyway~! If they can write it down use your phone ( if possible) and just find out!
My kids will google for me while I drive, or text for me too!

Sometimes we are being silly and just make up funny answers and that always leads us to some interesting conversations and we may not find out the answer to that specific question but we end up learning  something or connecting over some good laugh and joy.


 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 

Brenda Ferns

I really needed this topic. Thank you! I have some new ideas on being conversational with my kids its always something ive struggled with. I always think I need to know the answer for them now I know that's not the case. This has made things a little more simpler for me. And will make conversations a little more entertaining.

Brenda

Mommie of 3 girls 10, 8, 6 and son 3 and little one due in June.

On Nov 14, 2013 8:44 PM, "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY" <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
 

It depends.
There are many things we can do other than write them down and there are many degrees of answer.
Sometimes you know a little and that is enough, sometimes kids want more information than what you want,

Now that my kids are older they  can use my phone to google it!!!!!

Sometimes we call someone to ask. I call my husband, my sister, friends!
We also discuss possibilities and what they think maybe the answer.

If you are driving you are not going to be able to write it down anyway~! If they can write it down use your phone ( if possible) and just find out!
My kids will google for me while I drive, or text for me too!

Sometimes we are being silly and just make up funny answers and that always leads us to some interesting conversations and we may not find out the answer to that specific question but we end up learning  something or connecting over some good laugh and joy.


 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 

<sukaynalabboun@...>

 We often have similar moments, and after much much discussion (if the kids are feeling that interested, which is usually true), we end up researching more online. My kids (15,12 and 10) like to hear or read from as many sources as possible and then draw their own conclusion(s). They value my input, and what they can research.  I have also discussed the ideas of truth or narratives or many points of view, and that science is ever-changing with them,so they really like input and then their own final analysis ( which I believe is critical thinking). So I do understand when Sandra says "google it" is not always the best answer, and I am more than willing to let things go per the kids interest level....more often than not, in our home, there is a very layered sort or research where everyone contributes, with the internet often playing a very significant role.



---In [email protected], <Sandra@...> wrote:

-=- I always tell them that we should google it when we get home,-=-

Don't do anything "always."
Some questions don't need google.  They might need "What do you think?" or "Who do you think would know things like that?" or "Do you think there's any way to really know that?" or "Maybe the answer is different in different places," or "Maybe we can be on the lookout for more info about that."

Or "I used to think [this] about it, when I was a kid, but now I'm not sure."

-=-Would you recommend carrying a small notebook to jot the questions down?-=-

Not if you're trying to drive.  Not if it will keep you from speculation and conjecture and sharing what you do know, conversationally.

If something comes up in a conversation and then it doesn't come up again later, that's fine.  The tide comes in, leaves some stuff on the sand, and goes out; some things stay, some go back out.  All of it still exists—the sand, the shells, the water—they're all still there, just rearranging a bit.

Sandra

<sukaynalabboun@...>

 Oh! Sandra, I thought this was such a beautifully descriptive way of describing the flow of many of our days:


If something comes up in a conversation and then it doesn't come up again later, that's fine.  The tide comes in, leaves some stuff on the sand, and goes out; some things stay, some go back out.  All of it still exists—the sand, the shells, the water—they're all still there, just rearranging a bit.

This is a great way to think of those short  question and answers, not as missed opportunities but as just rearranging a bit! Thanks!


---In [email protected], <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

It depends.
There are many things we can do other than write them down and there are many degrees of answer.
Sometimes you know a little and that is enough, sometimes kids want more information than what you want,

Now that my kids are older they  can use my phone to google it!!!!!

Sometimes we call someone to ask. I call my husband, my sister, friends!
We also discuss possibilities and what they think maybe the answer.

If you are driving you are not going to be able to write it down anyway~! If they can write it down use your phone ( if possible) and just find out!
My kids will google for me while I drive, or text for me too!

Sometimes we are being silly and just make up funny answers and that always leads us to some interesting conversations and we may not find out the answer to that specific question but we end up learning  something or connecting over some good laugh and joy.


 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 

awa

Hello!

Last time I wrote I got a lot to think about and the advice to just ask
some questions here. Now I'm at a point I feel comfortable to do that.
I noticed a lot of things going on in my family (husband, son 3.5yr,
daughter 15 month and me) and I don't know how to resolve or handle them.

First I finally understood we are all different from each other. We
share a household, food, money and time but we are different human
beings with different interests and personalities.
I know our children learn by watching us adults so I try to be a better
person every day.

Now, I'm at a point where I just want to be myself. But myself isn't
always nice or thoughtful - even though I wish I were. How do or did you
handle this internal process? When I go over my limits a lot I start to
be a nasty, loud, unfair/accusing person. This hurts our relationships
and destroys any peaceful atmosphere in our home.

I was very permissive before, saying "yes" without thought a lot (same
result as above). Now I have great difficulty in handling my son (3.5yr)
when he gets upset.
Really, I have a whole lot of difficulty to handle "upset" in any
person, including me. What has helped you?

I read on breathing on Sandras page - it is wonderful, but often I'm
still overwhelmed by my own feelings. I get scared and defensive when
someone is upset, I get aggressive and mean when I am upset. Not good at
all. How do whole, unhurt people handle upset?
Or feelings in general? I suppressed lots of feelings in my childhood,
so I don't really know how to express anything safely.

I have some parenting questions as well, I know since my children aren't
school age I'm technically not unschooling, but you give such mindful
advice, so I hope it's ok to ask here.

Because I'm still confused about what the best approach is. (I notice,
that "best" is still schoolish thinking).

I want my son to wear underpants (or even be fully clothed) at home
(even when it's just us 3 or 4 here). I know families who don't care
about that, I know families who are really strict about that. I
personally think it is a good idea for various reasons: i.e. being warm,
not showing genitals in everyones face.
Should I let him run around naked despite my feelings? My husband
doesn't seem to care about our children being in underwear or clothed at
all - until they want to go out. But then he (husband) complains about
it, telling the children to go and dress themselves.

I still help my son to get dressed when he wants or needs it - my
husband just tells him to do it. It's alwasy a conflict between them.

How do you organize your day and home?
I dress the children in the morning (sometime, it depends; but underwear
is important to me from the start), we eat, we go places or do stuff at
home. I'm available but not actively playing with them or offering them
stuff to do as long as they have or find things to do on their own.
Is this ok? (Yes, I really need some kind of assessment :( )

I'm happy because at least I know and notice my schoolish thinking, me
need for approval, I didn't earlier and that I do now is thanks to your
help!

When my husband is home I really hope (and need) to relax, but the
situation gets complicated as he wants the children to play and do what
he thinks is fun/interesting... although he is embracing the idea of
unschooling, he can't change his behaviour just now in all aspects.
I try to help him be offering options which he often declines. So I end
up telling him just what to do. I'm aware our children listen and it is
these days our son tells his sister what to do or not to do most often.

My husband is saying no a lot - instead of looking for options.
Is it okay if I offer my ideas, even tell him what to do? I feel bad
about telling other people what to do. I know if I stepped in and just
did everything my children want with them even though their dad is home
we wouldn't have those conflicts, tears and yelling. But they want their
dad! And I want my rest, so there's that.

How can I rest alongside my children? Any ideas?

Now my son is ill and he refuses to dress or stay in bed. How can I
handle that?

Love,
awa

Sandra Dodd

This is a very interesting question.  I LOVE IT when someone asks a question no one has ever asked before, so thank you!!

-=-I know our children learn by watching us adults so I try to be a better 
person every day.

-=-Now, I'm at a point where I just want to be myself. But myself isn't 
always nice or thoughtful - even though I wish I were. How do or did you 
handle this internal process? =-

-=-3.5yr, 
daughter 15 month and me-=-

Your children aren't even school-age yet, so we can help you with principles, but if you're in Germany as your e-mail suggests, this could be a problem for you (unschooling or home education of any sort), right?

But with two toddlers, it's too early for you to relax from being mindful and "just be yourself."  

Start back:  
-=-I know our children learn by watching us adults so I try to be a better 
person every day.-=-

So you're only trying to be better because you want your child to learn how to behave?
So you're ACTING better, rather than actually intending to BE better?

If you become a better person, that will not be temporary.
Your self WILL be better.

So what IS "better"?  If you are not a nice person, and not a positive person, and not a peaceful person, here are the problems I can foresee without even knowing you:

1) your children will be sad
2) your children will be unsafe, discontent, fearful
3) your children will not be able to learn naturally because of the two factors above
4) your marriage will not be happy
5) that can lead to divorce, which will harm your children for life, and won't do you or your husband any good, either.

So for the good of your children's peaceful future of learning (whether you need them in German schools or whether you have somehow sidestepped that issue) I'm going to respond as though your problems are as serious as you indicate.

More to come. :-)

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=--=-I know our children learn by watching us adults so I try to be a better 
person every day.-=--=-

If you change that to "I am a better person every moment," your whole family's life will jump up a level or two!  
Level up!!


If you're acting without thinking, you're acting thoughtlessly.
If you're speaking without thinking, you're speaking thoughtlessly.

Sandra

<mypersonalmessages1@...>

Sandra wrote....
 

 

”If you are not a nice person, and not a positive person, and not a peaceful person, here are the problems I can foresee without even knowing you:

1) your children will be sad
2) your children will be unsafe, discontent, fearful
3) your children will not be able to learn naturally because of the two factors above
 
***I have always believed this also, and my son and I have  a positive and grateful attitude toward life each and every day.
 
Unfortunately, my mother has had a stroke, and we are in her company often. Sadly, my mother has always been a person who is neither positive or peaceful.
 
Her pervasive negative attitude is having the very effect you prognosticated above. I explain to my son that we can love grandma though we see the world differently. He notices her  attitude and her actions, and we notice the less than positive  consequences life naturally gives her.
 
When he was writing a poem the other day, he described himself first and foremost as nice. He finds himself, however trying out her behaviors....not being nice, judging others, complaining, and stating “I can’t”. Instead of his previous choices of feeling happiness and gratitude and finding the joy in meeting  challenges..
 
As Sandra said, being around a role model who is not positive can change a child. Sadly, I can attest to this first hand. I would be grateful for any ideas you might be able to offer.
 

 

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 12, 2014, at 6:11 AM, awa claire_oberon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> Now, I'm at a point where I just want to be myself. But myself isn't
> always nice or thoughtful - even though I wish I were. How do or did you
> handle this internal process?


What I picked up through out your post is a need to control. A lot of what's rousing anger, frustration, irritation in you is a need for people to stop doing things that are bugging you.

So I think when you say "be myself" what you mean is you want to stop stuffing down your feelings, stop pretending that something isn't bugging you. That's definitely a step away from feeling your feeling don't matter. But you want to keep moving to an even healthier place.

The key to inner peace is working towards life not bugging you. The reason life is bugging you is that you've been living in a world where you must choose between meeting your needs or other people's needs. But you grew up with the message that your needs aren't important. As you realize, all those years of stuffing down the feelings and needs doesn't make them go away. They just accumulate. They build up to the point where people wanting you to give more grows resentment. You want it to finally be your turn in life and for others to stop needing you.

That's not good either!

Too many parents -- mothers especially -- either give and give and give then get silently resentful when people want more, or give and give and give then say, "I'm done taking care of you. I need a break."

A healthy place is where you can meet your needs AND others' at the same time. Or meet your needs without taking from others.

For instance, if you're running low on energy while out doing errands, you don't wait until you're at your wits end, screaming for the kids to stop having needs. You stop when you first notice you need to stop. You stop where you can get some food or coffee AND where the kids can run around and get their needs met. Show your kids how people can take care of themselves AND keep others' needs in mind at the same time.

There are two authors people have recommended over and over. Start with these two books and browse through the comments. If they don't strike a chord, check a couple of their other books. I know Byron Katie's books have been translated into German. Your library might have them. If not, Amazon should. There's also the Kindle versions in English.

Loving What Is: Four Questions That Can Change Your Life by Byron Katie
http://smile.amazon.com/Loving-What-Four-Questions-Change-ebook/dp/B000QCSACW/

The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships by Harriet Lerner
http://smile.amazon.com/Dance-Anger-Changing-Patterns-Relationships-ebook/dp/B00F2I2H56/

Move towards a place where the Serenity prayer rings true for you:

Grant me the Serenity
To accept the things I cannot change...
Courage to change the things I can,
And Wisdom to know the difference.

> When I go over my limits a lot I start to
> be a nasty, loud, unfair/accusing person. This hurts our relationships
> and destroys any peaceful atmosphere in our home.

Having little ones under 4 is draining. So moms will feel drained during those years.

But going over your limits should be temporary, not standard. As you say, your children learn from you. If you're constantly doing more than you can, you're showing them that taking breaks and taking care of yourself isn't a good thing.

The key, though, is, as I said above, to take breaks AND take care of their needs.

Be more reasonable about what you can do in a day. (Of course babies and toddlers have big needs. They do grow less with time!)

Working towards taking care of your needs while also being available for others will be a big step towards a lot of what you've asked about.


> I was very permissive before, saying "yes" without thought a lot (same
> result as above). Now I have great difficulty in handling my son (3.5yr)
> when he gets upset.

He's also 3 which is an age of a big mental growth. It's when a lot of kids realize in a *big* way they can do things and the world will respond. Up until 3 the big people manipulated the world for them. The big people got the juice, turned on the lights, decided when it was time to sleep.

At 3 kids realize they have the physical ability to manipulate their worlds. And they also realize they lack the power. Light switches are too high. Juice is in bottles too heavy to pour without spilling. Big people say no.

What can help a lot is notice what he's trying to do that he still needs help with and find ways for him to do these things himself. You can put juice in washable containers so he can just grab it, for instance. But if he asks, do still get it for him. For many people they feel loved when someone is taking care of their needs.

> I want my son to wear underpants (or even be fully clothed) at home
> (even when it's just us 3 or 4 here). I know families who don't care
> about that, I know families who are really strict about that. I
> personally think it is a good idea for various reasons: i.e. being warm,
> not showing genitals in everyones face.

He knows when he's warm and cold. Don't decide that for him.

As for wearing clothes in the house ... it *is* easier to let go of that. If you can't, a step towards it may be going with him to buy underwear or shorts or a costume that he loves. Let go of the struggle to make him wear clothes at home to your satisfaction. It will just make it that much harder to get clothes on him when he needs to go out. (One trick may have found useful is letting kids jump into the car in the pajamas and dressing in the car once they get where they're going. That may not work as well with naked kids ;-) )


> But then he (husband) complains about
> it, telling the children to go and dress themselves.


I would jump in before he complains. Don't wait for him to be the one who notices the kids still need to be dressed.

He has some unreasonable expectations of what kids are capable of at 3. But it will strain your relationship if you fight about it. You might mention that getting dressed is still new to your son so it still feels like a huge hard task. But let go of your husband understanding.

> When my husband is home I really hope (and need) to relax,


That isn't a reasonable hope when your kids are so young. It's great if you can help it happen! It will feel disappointing if you *expect* it to happen, or you hold onto the idea that you *need* it to happen.

Will you die if your husband doesn't take over the kids? No. Would it be nice so you could sit back and relax? Yes, of course! :-) But in the long run, it will feel even more draining if you need and expect to have that time to relax. It will be less draining if you're taking care of your needs all day long. Take a *second* here and there to take a deep breath. Sit down with the kids and watch TV. Sit down and have some coffee while the kids play at the play ground. Or hover nearby while you take deep calming breaths. Look out the window at a pretty scene. Take *moments* throughout your day to refresh. It will set yourself up for disappointment to expect a big chunk of time.

> My husband is saying no a lot - instead of looking for options.
> Is it okay if I offer my ideas, even tell him what to do?


Do you want him to tell you want to do? Probably not.

Let him find his own way. But also be more aware of escalating needs. Take care of the needs in a calmer way *before* he builds up to irritation.


Joyce

Sandra Dodd

Maybe each time you're going to be with your mom, you and your son could brainstorm one or two or three things to say that are positive.

Maybe it will result in a more positive response. If so, that's a success!

But the positive thing he decides to say, or the pretty thing he shows her or the soft cloth he puts on her, or the soothing music, or beautiful photo.... that MUST add more positivity to the situation.

Maybe (though it seems harsh as I think about it) you could keep a list of those positive ideas, and of her reactions to them.

Perhaps you could have a little "shake it off" ceremony/moment/action when you leave her place or room, to symbolically move back into a more positive world together.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

> I was very permissive before, saying "yes" without thought a lot (same 
> result as above). Now I have great difficulty in handling my son (3.5yr) 
> when he gets upset.

Saying yes without thinking is as bad as saying "no" without thinking. :-)
It's the thinking that helps!

When moms "just say yes," sometimes it's a kind of "yes, damn you" or "yes, whatever" or "yes, I don't care."

The good kind of yes is "Cool, yeah, I can help you do that!" or "Sounds fun!  Let's do it!"

What leads away from partnership will widen the separation and result in adversarial relations.  What leads toward partnership will create more peace for everyone.

Sandra

Me

I read your ideas to my son, and he and i say thank you...we also used them as a springboard for further ideas.

My son asked me if we could further inquire about how his grandmother's actions have an effect on him elsewhere. He asked me to explain that his is not effected by her comments to him..that he understands and he does not take it to heart.

He says he is asking for help because he says that he is starting to copy/mimic her words and actions. [My mom can do disdain and judgmental unfortunately quite well] He asked me to reiterate some examples that he is doing and not liking...for example, he will complain about the driver in front of us going too slowly, something he has heard my mother disdainfully say; he will say something adverse about someone he does not know, whereas he has always been joyful and appreciates differences; he will immediately say "I can't" to any small challenge that he knows he is quite capable of, whereas before he would welcome the opportunity to be challenged and to learn and to grow. To be more succinct, his  attitude is far less positive than it has been.

He says he wants to be nice, that he does not want to copy her. He will say "I get upset" to explain when he does choose to act as he has seen her do. He also states that he really likes to choose to be positive, and he really likes how he feels inside when he is happy and positive and believes in himself  and others. 

When we discuss it, he states that this is not the choice he wants to make. He is then able to reassess his comments and change it. He will say that he does not like to act in what he states is a not nice way.

These are his words....We appreciate the challenging journey we are on and grateful for the opportunity...I am hoping though that we can find a way that he does not change, when he is unwittingly exposed to less than joyful and positive behavior.  

He asked me to say thank you for "listening" to his thoughts. [I could not concur more.]


Sandra


semajrak@...

<<I am hoping though that we can find a way that he does not change, when he is unwittingly exposed to less than joyful and positive behavior.>>

Life is full of negative people and negative influences.  We can't wish that away.  We can't live forever in a bubble of denial that some people and/or situations are less than ideal.  What we can do is try to move toward better ourselves, and learn to feel confident enough that other people's behaviour does not too negatively affect our own experience.  But, I think that is something that becomes more clear to us when we are adults.  For me, it only started to become clear as an adult in my thirties.  Children can witness what that looks like earlier, if we model it for them.  

Part of learning what feels good comes from learning what feels bad.  For a good part of my twenties I was a bit of an ass.  I was negative, miserable and sometimes even mean.  I didn't like myself very much during this time of my life and it didn't feel good to behave this way.  In time as I came to understand why I was so angry.  I would have benefitted from some guidance earlier, or even at the time, but I didn't have it.  Your son, however, has you.

Maybe let him try on your mom's words and actions.  He's young still.  He'll need to try on many hats to find the one that fits him most comfortably, and it is better if he does so when he's young and in a safe, supportive environment.  Give him feedback, but don't be very critical.  Our children can't be nice all the time.  I don't believe it's healthy for us parents to expect them to try.  You show your son what it looks like to stay true to your beliefs in the presence of a difficult person.  That will help him learn to do the same for himself over time.  Give him room to define what feels good and right to him, with your example and experience as a guide.

My folks are pretty negative people.  When I'm with them I'm as generous as I can be. I've learned to do that for them and for myself.  It feels better to me  to be the positive influence, rather than dwelling too much on their negativity.  They're both getting old now.  They're in their late 80s.  Ethan watches me with them.  He hears their words and sees their actions, and has my own words and actions to measure that experience against.  If he has questions, he asks, but I don't spend a lot of time talking about things.  I keep it simple.  I give him room to come to his own conclusions.

My dad likes to call the television "the idiot box" for example.  Ethan thought that was really funny and copied him a couple/few times back at home.  I let it go the first time. The second or third time, I asked him if he thought grandpa was an idiot for watching tv.  He said no. I asked him why he thought grandpa called it that if he enjoyed watching it.  He didn't have an answer.  I said I didn't either, except that there's a lot of negativity floating around with regards to tv watching.  I said I thought it was kind of sad that grandpa saw his own experience with something he enjoys that way.  He thought about that, I think. He's never referred to the tv in that way again.  That was his choice.  I did not tell him not to call the television an idiot box, though I have to admit I did cringe internally a bit.  I think he came to that choice on his own by evaluating where he fit into what he's experienced in his own life thus far.  

He doesn't always make the nicer choice.  Neither do I.  That's okay.  He does pretty darn well for his age in my opinion.  I do too.  ;-)  I respect him and trust that he'll continue to learn to live in the world in a way that respects his beliefs.  I also hope he'll continue to learn to leave enough room for others to do the same.

Me

>> I didn't like myself very much during this time of my life and it didn't feel good to behave this way.  In time as I came to understand why I was so angry.  I would have benefitted from some guidance earlier, or even at the time, but I didn't have it.  Your son, however, has you.<<
>>Maybe let him try on your mom's words and actions.  He's young still.  He'll need to try on many hats to find the one that fits him most comfortably, and it is better if he does so when he's young and in a safe, supportive environment. << >>Our children can't be nice all the time.   Give him room to define what feels good and right to him, with your example and experience as a guide.<<

...Yes, and like you and your son, we are doing this, and it is helping for him to see after the fact.. My son's query is that he wants to act nice, and he does not like it when he does not act nicely. He will see that he is not nice and will apologize, even to an inanimate object. What he wants to know is how to stop himself from copying his grandmother's negative words.

If I am allowed to cite another example, to help clarify...we will be waiting in line, and he will say to me ""why doesn't she hurry up? is she a slowpoke? [said in a less than positive tone] [mind you, before my son would only speak nicely and kindly and this thought would never have been part of his experience] When we discuss what he is thinking and feeling, and i ask him to think about what is notices is  happening, he will appraise and acknowledge what is really going on. He will say" that was not very nice of me to talk like that" and then he does go back to  joyful ad positive 

We will find our way...

the issue for him at this moment in time...he gets so disappointed in himself because he continues to copy her words, and he so wants to find a way not to do it, but he finds himself affected by her thoughts and actions.










semajrak@...

<<apologize, even to an inanimate object>>

This doesn't sound healthy to me.  If Ethan was apologizing to inanimate objects, I would let him know he doesn't need to do that.  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.  What is your son apologizing to inanimate objects about?

<<we will be waiting in line, and he will say to me ""why doesn't she hurry up? is she a slowpoke?>>

If he says it loud enough for the person to hear, that's not kind.  I would help Ethan understand that. But, if he's quietly voicing some personal frustration about wanting to move a little faster, I'm not sure that's a problem.  

People here in Ithaca, NY often seem to drive pretty slow through town.  Sometimes drivers will stop in the middle of the road to check out a waterfall that I've seen a bazillion times.  If I'm in a hurry, it's a bit irritating to me.  If I'm not, I don't care.  I'm happy to wait.  But on those occasions when I have less patience, I might say "Oh, come on!  Let's go!"  I don't yell.  I'm not hostile.  But, I probably sound frustrated.  It would be nicer if I would wait patiently, but I don't think it's terrible that I voice my frustration, if I'm not hurting anyone.  It might help if someone in the car said "No big deal".  It might also help if someone commisserated with me and said "I know!  Sheesh!"  

Having only one right response seems limiting to me.  Having only the option of being nice seems suffocating to me.  Perhaps that is what your son is sad about.  Not that he's not being nice, but that he can't possibly live up to the expectation that he must *always* be nice.  That would make me sad too.

Karen James

Sandra Dodd

-=-"why doesn't she hurry up? is she a slowpoke?-=-

Karen didn't see a problem with this, if the other person didn't hear it.
"Slowpoke" is picked up from elsewhere (and that's the question, really).  It's one of those terms of insult that we pick up from older relatives.  It's never said nicely.  If someone lives deliberately, gardens carefully, embroiders with careful attention,  nobody says "I admire your slowpoke tendencies."

I hardly ever disagree with Karen, but I'm going to do it again. :-)

-=-But on those occasions when I have less patience, I might say "Oh, come on!  Let's go!"  I don't yell.  I'm not hostile.  But, I probably sound frustrated.  It would be nicer if I would wait patiently, but I don't think it's terrible that I voice my frustration, if I'm not hurting anyone.  It might help if someone in the car said "No big deal".  It might also help if someone commisserated with me and said "I know!  Sheesh!"  -=-

Not yelling and not being hostile is good, but still... the only person hearing the complaint is not the other driver.  So expressing frustration in a car is negativity the other people don't deserve.  My husband likes to do that sometimes, but it never makes me think better of him.  And I'm not very sympathetic, either, beause he's sometimes an irritating driver.  AND sometimes it's not the other driver's fault at all, whatsoever.  Sometimes a car behind me probably wishes I would hurry (more often can't catch me, while Holly is reading speed limit signs to me meaningfullly), but if I rush so that they are slightly convenienced, it can cause an accident.  sometimes they can't see the scooter in front of my van, or the pedestrian, or the speed of the oncoming car, and turning left or making a U-turn with a car coming isn't safe for any of us, if I rush it when I don't have the right of way.

Also... the person in the car ahead might have just received horrible news, or lost a job, or be afraid for a child, or....    we don't know.

I think just smiling and saying "sounds like Grandma!" (or what seems natural and what you call her... you know)—not in a mean way, just an acknowledgement—might help him know that you're paying attention and that you're aware that he's picking things up, but that you're not worried about it.

Some people do pick up the habits or accents of others around them very easily.  It can be beneficial in business and friend-making.  It's called "high self-monitors," and here's something from a summary of a book called "Click," about "quick-set intimacy."  

Certain People are Magnets: Some people have personalities that cause them to click with other people. The Brafmans document what these people do to attract others:

A. They easily adapt to the circumstances or the group.

B. They tend to match the emotional expression of who they are interacting with.

C. They are constantly aware of the impact of their actions.

D. They act as a network hub. They are the conduit through which information flows.

It could easily be that adopting his grandmother's attitudes is an act of acceptance and love, in an instinctive way.  

I would downplay the problem.  He's young.  Let him think about it.  Karen's attitude is probably better than mine for younger people. :-)

But when it comes up, sometime, maybe remind him that as negativity is contagious, he will be doing a community service by being more smiley and less insulting.

Sandra


Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 16, 2014, at 11:03 AM, semajrak@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> <<apologize, even to an inanimate object>>
>
> This doesn't sound healthy to me. If Ethan was apologizing
> to inanimate objects, I would let him know he doesn't need to do that.


I don't see a problem with it. As a kid I had a feeling inanimate things had souls. I could see that same sensitivity in Kat. Even at 57 I had a real tough time throwing away some ratty stuffed animals. That feeling didn't warp me too badly ;-) Maybe that feeling is what prompted animistic spiritual beliefs.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

Lori Odhner (one of my first two La Leche League leaders) does a daily marriage-strenghtening blog.  Today's post was this, and it was an interesting coincidence. :-)


A little girl came to sewing today. She arrived like a blank slate with no clear idea of what to make. Since my twins had recently brought the quilted fairy house we made together downstairs, my student knew instantly that she wanted one too. The one Hope, Aurelle and I worked on over several days this summer had a brown hut with a door and removable green roof, felted furniture, a swing with a little flower fairy enjoying it, and a bridge that curved over a slender brook running across the middle of an oval garden. I believed I could help this girl finish the house in one class. 

She picked interesting fabrics for the inside, outside and bottom. No need to coordinate colors in her world. A maroon floral exterior, bubblegum pink interior, and an orange floor soon came together to invite any number of small folk to live safely out of the rain. Thread was another chance to include the rainbow, and she saw no reason to hold back. 

The routine was that we machine sewed all the parts together, then I pinned them at the edges. My collection has pins with heads of different sizes and shades. Then we hand sewed them. I poked in the right place, and she pulled the needle through. Each time we snuck up on a pin my little helper had a conversation with it.

"You are a Baby Yellow, and here is your Mama Yellow. You can go home now." When we no longer needed a pin she carried it back to the magnetic pin cushion. "Hello Baby Blue pin, here is your Daddy Blue pin."

We came upon a pin that seemed to have no family.

She explained to me this time rather than speaking to the pins themselves.
"This is a white wife but she hasn't found her husband yet." She seemed confident that this pin too would discover her special partner. I watched in wonder, that her belief in marriage was unflappable. 


I will describe what children's concepts are like when they are looking at various objects. It is as though everything were alive; so in the smallest concepts of their thought there is an inherent life. 
   Heaven and Hell 338, Emanuel Swedenborg
_____________________________________________

The last quote is particular to her religion, but still interesting in general.
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semajrak@...

<<I will describe what children's concepts are like when they are looking at various objects. It is as though everything were alive; so in the smallest concepts of their thought there is an inherent life.>>

Yes, that (and Laurie's story) is really beautiful.  Like Joyce, I'm sentimental about inanimate objects too.  Very.  I think I was worrying that the boy was being too hard on himself if he was apologizing to inanimate objects, and forgot how children (and adults too) see the spirit or character of life in many places.  I'm sure I was feeling sensitive to: 

"he gets so disappointed in himself"

I feel for the young boy.  I think that's also why I would choose to take a more forgiving stand with his expressing his impatience with the lady in the grocery line.  He sounds like he's a very good-hearted child.  Maybe it's okay to privately call someone a slowpoke sometimes.  I feel like there needs to be room for this to be true because if it isn't an option, there isn't a real choice not to do so.

Ethan is very sensitive this way.  I try to give him information about the words and phrases he uses (whether they're positive or negative) if they are new to him, and if I think that will help him better understand what he is really saying.  I also offer him another perspective when I believe it will be useful.  But, I try to let him know that it's okay if he's not nice all the time.  I'm okay with him expressing frustration or negativity.  He very rarely does.  I want to be a safe place for him to do that so that he can learn from how it feels for himself and experience the consequences while he has someone close who cares about him as much as I do to help him.  

I was a nice kid.  I think part of why I was so difficult in my early twenties was because I had moved out on my own, and I could finally be free from the expectations people had of me *always* being nice.  Like I said, it didn't feel good to me to not be thoughtful and kind, and in time, with real experiences to draw from, I learned that.  Still, I have a feeling if I was given more room to express myself and experiment with different ways of being me when I was younger, I might not have found myself fumbling so clumsily with those ill-fitting hats as a young adult.  I suppose I'll never know, but this conversation has given me much food for thought.  I really do appreciate that.  

Karen James.

semajrak@...

I just had another thought for the boy.  Ethan used to love Garfield comics.  I think over the course of a couple of years he read nearly every one of them.  He has more than 18 volumes and he would read them every night to himself and with either Doug or me.  Currently, he enjoys the show "Bob's Burgers" which has a similar mischievous feel but is more mature in content. Maybe exploring some of the phrases and attitudes of his grandmother in a comical way would give him and outlet for experiencing that, and some relief from feeling so disappointed with himself.  I know for Ethan, he will laugh and laugh at the antics of characters he would never (or at least very rarely) attempt to imitate.

Karen James.  

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe it's okay to privately call someone a slowpoke sometimes.  I feel like there needs to be room for this to be true because if it isn't an option, there isn't a real choice not to do so.-=-

"Okay" is a hard thing to agree to.  Maybe it's okay to kill people sometimes.  I bet we could all name a time or two when execution or self-defense would make sense to lots of people.  

Millions of parents think it's okay to spank kids.  We all have that option.

If two things are equally "okay," then there's no reason to make a choice.  Just flip a coin.  If one is "better," that's likely to be subjective and particular to the individual making the choice.  

I know someone who spends her volunteer time objecting to capital punishment.  Subjectively, if I were in prison for life and was as guilty as could be of something heinous, I would rather just be *poof* gone than to live there another 10 or 50 years, so I don't see the big deal, honestly, especially considering the huge cost of keeping people locked up.  Is it "okay"?  What's okay for me isn't okay for my friend, yet neither of us is in the position to make that decision in the life of inmate.

We had a vegan visiting the other day, who sometimes eats cheese. :-)  Is that "okay"?  
I didn't mind.  Friends of hers who love her most for her "veganism" might think it shows low moral character or that her body is polluted or something.

-=--=-Maybe it's okay to privately call someone a slowpoke sometimes.  I feel like there needs to be room for this to be true because if it isn't an option, there isn't a real choice not to do so.-=--=-

Just because something is an option doesn't make it okay.
Just because something is okay doesn't always make it an option.

IF someone wants to preserve life, or be a vegan, or be nicer than his grandmother, then the directional arrows start to show on the compass, for a moment, at least. :-)

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-  I know for Ethan, he will laugh and laugh at the antics of characters he would never (or at least very rarely) attempt to imitate.-=-

In the ancient days, when homeschooling was first discussed online and The Simpsons was a new show, many parents said they would NEVER let that show into their homes, and that their children would NEVER see that show, lest they become like Bart.  

Maybe it would have done some of those moms good to become more like Marge. 

And nobody said "My husband, if he watches that program, will be like Homer!"

Perhaps it's the "empty vessel"/tabula rasa belief that children become what they see, rather than seeing that children are born with a personality, and traits, and preferences.  Some kids were like Bart before that program's creator was ever born.   

So there IS influence, and there is encouragement or neglect, but it's not usually a problem when thoughtful unschooling is a solid factor in a family's life.

Sandra

mama25kids@...

I'm quite in sympathy with the perspective you've shared, Karen. It sounds like we had similar experiences growing up. I was a highly sensitive, conscience-driven child, a real people pleaser and peace-maker, and my parents expectations (and therefore my own of myself) were unreasonably high. As a result, I grew up with a tendency to feel guilt way out of proportion to whatever wrong I committed, and that reflex followed me well into adulthood and messed up my early parenting by prompting me to set my expectations too high for myself and children, and not being able to feel patience and compassion for my and their imperfections. 

Unschooling, and more to the point deschooling, has helped a lot with this. But I would not encourage a sensitive child, who typically shows himself to be caring and sweet, to be hyper-vigilant about his every word and tone, or focused on analyzing and judging his every word and deed for its acceptability. So, if I were standing in line and my 12 yo was wondering what's taking so long, I might make up possible scenarios that are sympathetic to the people in front of us, or else look around for a place for him to sit down, or give him my phone to take pictures or play games, etc.. I would not call him out for his feelings or his expression of them unless he was being notably rude. And I wouldn't encourage a habit of him replaying and second-guessing his every"negative" thought or word.

It may be that I'm reading more into this particular situation than what's really there, but the son being so often "disappointed" in himself, combined with the mom's statement of her "hoping though that we can find a way that he does not change" [from his previous perpetually cheerful, positive self] sounds like a lot of pressure on a young soul to only EVER be kind and sweet...in other words, to NEVER make a mistake. That doesn't sound healthy to me, either.

CASS KOTRBA


-=-   sounds like a lot of pressure on a young soul to only EVER be kind and sweet...in other words, to NEVER make a mistake. That doesn't sound healthy to me, either. -=-
 
I was having thoughts along this same line.  I was raised to always be nice and "if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all".  Being nice is not always the most appropriate response in all situations.  It's something I've spent a lot of years trying to decipher the nuance of.  I was taught, intentionally or not, that unhappy feelings and thoughts were unacceptable & unwelcome.  I internalized that to believe that I was bad to have emotions or thoughts that weren't happy and pleasant.  This caused me to push down thoughts and feelings that did not fit into this narrow band of accepted emotions.  It is still a subject that is quite confusing to me.
-Cass

Joyce Fetteroll

*** sounds like a lot of pressure on a young soul to only EVER be kind and sweet ***

I think people who were criticized for their words as children are letting their own sensitivities color what's written here.

If it's "not okay" to say something unkind, do you really think it would be suggested here to correct and shame a child each time he fails at being kind?

Or do you think the idea that it's "not okay" to be unkind is triggering memories of your parent's reactions to your words so that you're imagining that's what's being said?

If an idea is "not okay" that means don't model it. If an idea is "not okay" that means when kids don't realize it's not okay, to let them know, to help them understand. That goes for any idea that's not okay. Grabbing. Touching in a way that others don't like.

Kids should stop saying "slowpoke" and such because it *feels* wrong, not because mom makes them stop.

And it will feel wrong if mom doesn't say such words. It will feel wrong if mom gives a child feedback that he's being unkind *when he doesn't realize it.*

BUT if a child is being deliberately unkind, then there's some deeper issue involved. It won't be fixed by making the child use kind words.

Except for the child who is noticing his own unkindness and *asking* for help to stop saying unkind words.

Joyce

Me

>>Having only one right response seems limiting to me.  Having only the option of being nice seems suffocating to me.  Perhaps that is what your son is sad about.  Not that he's not being nice, but that he can't possibly live up to the expectation that he must *always* be nice.  That would make me sad too.<<<

I have been reading all of your posts, am very grateful, and have been taking my time to digest what has been said.  I would like to respond and hopefully clarify...

 I have been thinking about this, but i am struggling with this statement Here is one thing I can respond...I do indeed model kindness and niceness. I respond to people in a nice manner. Even if they are rude, I act politely. My son and I have often discussed it, and I ask him to think about what are one's choices when met with someone who is not acting nicely.  I do believe he chooses to be nice and chooses the option that makes others feel good.  We volunteer at an adult day care center, and he enjoys doing this because he knows that he is helping others feel good. Just being the lovely young man he is will put a smile on someone's face, and he has learned that when he helps others, it feels good to him inside.

We have a little bee that we call "BEE=lieve" and we have him, among other things, to be a reminder of my son's  inner voice that asks him to be his best self .  He was writing a poem about himself, and when asked to pick an adjective that best described himself, he chose nice. So, yes it could very well be because he has seen me act in a nice manner.  So, because he emulates me at this stage and thus chooses to be positive and nice, do you see that is problematic and limiting? I am trying to make sense of this.

And as someone said, he is a good- hearted child and chooses happy and glad and kind and caring. Thus, the  reason for the original post was when sandra said that being around negative parents can adversely change a child ...when  his grandma moved in with us, he has now been around her  less than positive influence.  My son notices that he is not choosing a kind  way of thinking and looking at others, and he is not thrilled with his choices.  

>>My husband likes to do that sometimes, but it never makes me think better of him.  And I'm not very sympathetic, either, beause he's sometimes an irritating driver.  AND sometimes it's not the other driver's fault at all, whatsoever.  Sometimes a car behind me probably wishes I would hurry (more often can't catch me, while Holly is reading speed limit signs to me meaningfullly), but if I rush so that they are slightly convenienced, it can cause an accident.  sometimes they can't see the scooter in front of my van, or the pedestrian, or the speed of the oncoming car, and turning left or making a U-turn with a car coming isn't safe for any of us, if I rush it when I don't have the right of way.Also... the person in the car ahead might have just received horrible news, or lost a job, or be afraid for a child, or....    we don't know.<<<

To be very blunt, my mother is judgmental and makes negative comments often. My son will try  on her voice [saying something he has heard her say often] for example,  when a car cuts us off...."Mommy, he is being a jerk" I do not criticize him, but I will respond and ask him what is going on, and he will explain that the driver cut us off. And i will say, yes, he cut us off, and then we will discuss what we actually know about the situation. He comes to the conclusion that it was not a nice thing for the other car to do, but we do not know what is going on with the other person [and yes, here i am encouraging empathy] . Also, when all is said and done, I will ask my son which one feels better to him to be upset or to have a happy, joyful attitude toward life.

I just reread the paragraph i wrote before, and I think that though I do not criticize per se, that I do react. I do what i said above, but i am expressing some disbelief, because this is not how he has always acted.   I will go forward now and outwardly temper my reaction, though I admit inwardly, I am chagrined. Any ideas to help me???


>>I think just smiling and saying "sounds like Grandma!" (or what seems natural and what you call her... you know)—not in a mean way, just an acknowledgement—might help him know that you're paying attention and that you're aware that he's picking things up, but that you're not worried about it.<<< 

yes!!!
.by the way,  i am reading all of these posts to my son, and to the one above, he said..."Mommy, that is what you say and i do it too"  

however, I do admit that I am concerned about the disdain that he is showing [parroting what he is seeing] so, sandra, as to your comment, i do think i am not without worry. We discuss his choices and i ask him if each course of action feels the same inside... when he is disdainful or when he focuses on himself and how he can make the world a better place and have compassion and understanding for others?. So, i have to admit once again, that i am concerned. any wise words to guide me in helping him?

>>*Kids should stop saying "slowpoke" and such because it *feels* wrong, not because mom makes them stop. 
And it will feel wrong if mom doesn't say such words. It will feel wrong if mom gives a child feedback that he's being unkind *when he doesn't realize it.* if a child is being deliberately unkind, then there's some deeper issue involved. It won't be fixed by making the child use kind words. 
my italics ...Except for the child who is noticing his own unkindness and *asking* for help to stop saying unkind words<<

YES!!! that is this child...thank you for your patience and time and for helping us figure out how to traverse this challenging journey.