FW: [NoMoreSpanking] permissive parentingbratty kids and parental authority
Rod Thomas
This is from another list. Thought I would bring it here:
kathy
<<<In a way this may come as a bit of a rant, but it really is a
frustration point for me.I have been in AP groups for years, been on
discussion lists and in full support of the Continuum Concept. All of
these things are still things I believe in,meeting the needs of the
baby, sling wearing, breast feeding on demand,family bed and so on.
The problem I find is as the kids grow from babies into children,they
become very different people. Most of the AP kids I know are quite
horrible to be around. They whine, they hit, they call siblings and
parets names. The parents will tell the child they don't like the
behavior and try to reason with them,but nothing changes. I know
there was always this feeling that if you did "everything right",
there would be no unmet needs and therefore no need to discpline.If
you were 100% connected with your child the would automatically want
to please you by complying to a reasonable request.It is something I
have read about in Bushmen, but I have never seen in real life.
In real life these kids are obnoxoius and the parents have no way to
influence their behavior to change.They do modeling,and verbal
resoning,but this is often ignored. I have read on the unschooling
list where the parents write that they "just don't allow" kids to be
violent , swear at them or destroy things.They write that they
will "do what it takes" to stop destructive behavior, but nobody has
said exactly what it is that they will do. Will you physically
restrain? Will you hit that child? What do you do when you stand in
between fighting siblings and they don't stop? How is this so
different than being punitive? Is it better to have a physical or
verbal fight with your child when they are now in a rage and so are
you? What about when they are bigger? What if they win,do you then
have to call the police like you would if an adult started acting so
wild?
It seems there is either permissive parenting where even if you state
your dislike of a behvior you have no way to enforce it. It's
comepletely up to weather the child wants to please you or not.Or the
opposition which is authoritarian parenting,not consensual,and you
are able to keep your authority.
In the Continuum Concept the author describes that the parents do
have a natural authority and will often command something,"get that
bowl" and the kids will happily comply because the want to be part of
things. If they say no, which the option is always there, there is no
coercion at all,the parent just accepts the child's choice.What do
they do differently that the children respect the parents natural
authority? Our AP kids will almost always say no.
It it really so wrong to desire parental authority?
-Kelly>>>>
kathy
<<<In a way this may come as a bit of a rant, but it really is a
frustration point for me.I have been in AP groups for years, been on
discussion lists and in full support of the Continuum Concept. All of
these things are still things I believe in,meeting the needs of the
baby, sling wearing, breast feeding on demand,family bed and so on.
The problem I find is as the kids grow from babies into children,they
become very different people. Most of the AP kids I know are quite
horrible to be around. They whine, they hit, they call siblings and
parets names. The parents will tell the child they don't like the
behavior and try to reason with them,but nothing changes. I know
there was always this feeling that if you did "everything right",
there would be no unmet needs and therefore no need to discpline.If
you were 100% connected with your child the would automatically want
to please you by complying to a reasonable request.It is something I
have read about in Bushmen, but I have never seen in real life.
In real life these kids are obnoxoius and the parents have no way to
influence their behavior to change.They do modeling,and verbal
resoning,but this is often ignored. I have read on the unschooling
list where the parents write that they "just don't allow" kids to be
violent , swear at them or destroy things.They write that they
will "do what it takes" to stop destructive behavior, but nobody has
said exactly what it is that they will do. Will you physically
restrain? Will you hit that child? What do you do when you stand in
between fighting siblings and they don't stop? How is this so
different than being punitive? Is it better to have a physical or
verbal fight with your child when they are now in a rage and so are
you? What about when they are bigger? What if they win,do you then
have to call the police like you would if an adult started acting so
wild?
It seems there is either permissive parenting where even if you state
your dislike of a behvior you have no way to enforce it. It's
comepletely up to weather the child wants to please you or not.Or the
opposition which is authoritarian parenting,not consensual,and you
are able to keep your authority.
In the Continuum Concept the author describes that the parents do
have a natural authority and will often command something,"get that
bowl" and the kids will happily comply because the want to be part of
things. If they say no, which the option is always there, there is no
coercion at all,the parent just accepts the child's choice.What do
they do differently that the children respect the parents natural
authority? Our AP kids will almost always say no.
It it really so wrong to desire parental authority?
-Kelly>>>>
Kim H
<<The problem I find is as the kids grow from babies into children,they
become very different people. Most of the AP kids I know are quite
horrible to be around. They whine, they hit, they call siblings and
parets names. The parents will tell the child they don't like the
behavior and try to reason with them,but nothing changes. I know
there was always this feeling that if you did "everything right",
there would be no unmet needs and therefore no need to discpline.>>
To me, the difficulty with these sorts of statements is that 'the children I know' aren't really that many children. it's like the judgments unschoolers may get - how many unschoolers do people really know to be able to fairly judge.
The other thing is that children aren't perfect beings just because they're treated a certain way. In my opinion, that's not what we are raising our children to be.
In my situation though, I see the opposite. Chidlren who are treated with respect, equal to that respect that adults are given, are respectful children. Of course we all have our days. Bigger group dynamics often seem to be times when I notice play being abit more tricky for some kids (and adults!). Times when children have to do things they'd really rather not be doing like: shopping, waiting for longish periods of time, having only adults around with no children to interact with, and also when they are tired or hungry, or thirsty or sick or cold.
Putting your opinion on what things 'look' like without really looking at what's happening for individual children to cause some of the behaviours is often when people judge certain parenting styles unfairly. I think that those judegments are based on a lack of connecting with children's needs the way adults seem to be able to connect with adult needs.
Kim H
become very different people. Most of the AP kids I know are quite
horrible to be around. They whine, they hit, they call siblings and
parets names. The parents will tell the child they don't like the
behavior and try to reason with them,but nothing changes. I know
there was always this feeling that if you did "everything right",
there would be no unmet needs and therefore no need to discpline.>>
To me, the difficulty with these sorts of statements is that 'the children I know' aren't really that many children. it's like the judgments unschoolers may get - how many unschoolers do people really know to be able to fairly judge.
The other thing is that children aren't perfect beings just because they're treated a certain way. In my opinion, that's not what we are raising our children to be.
In my situation though, I see the opposite. Chidlren who are treated with respect, equal to that respect that adults are given, are respectful children. Of course we all have our days. Bigger group dynamics often seem to be times when I notice play being abit more tricky for some kids (and adults!). Times when children have to do things they'd really rather not be doing like: shopping, waiting for longish periods of time, having only adults around with no children to interact with, and also when they are tired or hungry, or thirsty or sick or cold.
Putting your opinion on what things 'look' like without really looking at what's happening for individual children to cause some of the behaviours is often when people judge certain parenting styles unfairly. I think that those judegments are based on a lack of connecting with children's needs the way adults seem to be able to connect with adult needs.
Kim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Thomas
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:51 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] FW: [NoMoreSpanking] permissive parentingbratty kids and parental authority
This is from another list. Thought I would bring it here:
kathy
<<<In a way this may come as a bit of a rant, but it really is a
frustration point for me.I have been in AP groups for years, been on
discussion lists and in full support of the Continuum Concept. All of
these things are still things I believe in,meeting the needs of the
baby, sling wearing, breast feeding on demand,family bed and so on.
The problem I find is as the kids grow from babies into children,they
become very different people. Most of the AP kids I know are quite
horrible to be around. They whine, they hit, they call siblings and
parets names. The parents will tell the child they don't like the
behavior and try to reason with them,but nothing changes. I know
there was always this feeling that if you did "everything right",
there would be no unmet needs and therefore no need to discpline.If
you were 100% connected with your child the would automatically want
to please you by complying to a reasonable request.It is something I
have read about in Bushmen, but I have never seen in real life.
In real life these kids are obnoxoius and the parents have no way to
influence their behavior to change.They do modeling,and verbal
resoning,but this is often ignored. I have read on the unschooling
list where the parents write that they "just don't allow" kids to be
violent , swear at them or destroy things.They write that they
will "do what it takes" to stop destructive behavior, but nobody has
said exactly what it is that they will do. Will you physically
restrain? Will you hit that child? What do you do when you stand in
between fighting siblings and they don't stop? How is this so
different than being punitive? Is it better to have a physical or
verbal fight with your child when they are now in a rage and so are
you? What about when they are bigger? What if they win,do you then
have to call the police like you would if an adult started acting so
wild?
It seems there is either permissive parenting where even if you state
your dislike of a behvior you have no way to enforce it. It's
comepletely up to weather the child wants to please you or not.Or the
opposition which is authoritarian parenting,not consensual,and you
are able to keep your authority.
In the Continuum Concept the author describes that the parents do
have a natural authority and will often command something,"get that
bowl" and the kids will happily comply because the want to be part of
things. If they say no, which the option is always there, there is no
coercion at all,the parent just accepts the child's choice.What do
they do differently that the children respect the parents natural
authority? Our AP kids will almost always say no.
It it really so wrong to desire parental authority?
-Kelly>>>>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emily Milikow
I agree about sample size, but, at the same time, I know my son at 3.5 can
do a lot of those things - he certainly hits some and is a general PITA a
lot :)
But my goal is to raise a self-reliant, loving adult, not to raise a
self-reliant 3/4/5/x-year old. Naomi Aldort said somewhere that children
will act like adults when they're....adults. I really like to remind myself
of that. A lot of mainstream kids ARE "better behaved" when they're young.
The point is that I don't want my son to behave that way out of fear of
getting yelled at or some other negative repercussion. And these
"well-behaved" kids are the same ones who later steal their parents' whiskey
to refill with water (Sandra's recent example).
--Emily
Yoav (3.5), Elie (7 mos)
http://milikow.blogspot.com
do a lot of those things - he certainly hits some and is a general PITA a
lot :)
But my goal is to raise a self-reliant, loving adult, not to raise a
self-reliant 3/4/5/x-year old. Naomi Aldort said somewhere that children
will act like adults when they're....adults. I really like to remind myself
of that. A lot of mainstream kids ARE "better behaved" when they're young.
The point is that I don't want my son to behave that way out of fear of
getting yelled at or some other negative repercussion. And these
"well-behaved" kids are the same ones who later steal their parents' whiskey
to refill with water (Sandra's recent example).
--Emily
Yoav (3.5), Elie (7 mos)
http://milikow.blogspot.com
On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Kim H <kimlewismark@...> wrote:
> <<The problem I find is as the kids grow from babies into children,they
> become very different people. Most of the AP kids I know are quite
> horrible to be around. They whine, they hit, they call siblings and
> parets names. The parents will tell the child they don't like the
> behavior and try to reason with them,but nothing changes. I know
> there was always this feeling that if you did "everything right",
> there would be no unmet needs and therefore no need to discpline.>>
>
> To me, the difficulty with these sorts of statements is that 'the children
> I know' aren't really that many children. it's like the judgments
> unschoolers may get - how many unschoolers do people really know to be able
> to fairly judge.
>
> The other thing is that children aren't perfect beings just because they're
> treated a certain way. In my opinion, that's not what we are raising our
> children to be.
>
> In my situation though, I see the opposite. Chidlren who are treated with
> respect, equal to that respect that adults are given, are respectful
> children. Of course we all have our days. Bigger group dynamics often seem
> to be times when I notice play being abit more tricky for some kids (and
> adults!). Times when children have to do things they'd really rather not be
> doing like: shopping, waiting for longish periods of time, having only
> adults around with no children to interact with, and also when they are
> tired or hungry, or thirsty or sick or cold.
>
> Putting your opinion on what things 'look' like without really looking at
> what's happening for individual children to cause some of the behaviours is
> often when people judge certain parenting styles unfairly. I think that
> those judegments are based on a lack of connecting with children's needs the
> way adults seem to be able to connect with adult needs.
>
> Kim H
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rod Thomas
> To: [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:51 AM
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] FW: [NoMoreSpanking] permissive parentingbratty
> kids and parental authority
>
> This is from another list. Thought I would bring it here:
> kathy
>
> <<<In a way this may come as a bit of a rant, but it really is a
> frustration point for me.I have been in AP groups for years, been on
> discussion lists and in full support of the Continuum Concept. All of
> these things are still things I believe in,meeting the needs of the
> baby, sling wearing, breast feeding on demand,family bed and so on.
>
> The problem I find is as the kids grow from babies into children,they
> become very different people. Most of the AP kids I know are quite
> horrible to be around. They whine, they hit, they call siblings and
> parets names. The parents will tell the child they don't like the
> behavior and try to reason with them,but nothing changes. I know
> there was always this feeling that if you did "everything right",
> there would be no unmet needs and therefore no need to discpline.If
> you were 100% connected with your child the would automatically want
> to please you by complying to a reasonable request.It is something I
> have read about in Bushmen, but I have never seen in real life.
>
> In real life these kids are obnoxoius and the parents have no way to
> influence their behavior to change.They do modeling,and verbal
> resoning,but this is often ignored. I have read on the unschooling
> list where the parents write that they "just don't allow" kids to be
> violent , swear at them or destroy things.They write that they
> will "do what it takes" to stop destructive behavior, but nobody has
> said exactly what it is that they will do. Will you physically
> restrain? Will you hit that child? What do you do when you stand in
> between fighting siblings and they don't stop? How is this so
> different than being punitive? Is it better to have a physical or
> verbal fight with your child when they are now in a rage and so are
> you? What about when they are bigger? What if they win,do you then
> have to call the police like you would if an adult started acting so
> wild?
> It seems there is either permissive parenting where even if you state
> your dislike of a behvior you have no way to enforce it. It's
> comepletely up to weather the child wants to please you or not.Or the
> opposition which is authoritarian parenting,not consensual,and you
> are able to keep your authority.
>
> In the Continuum Concept the author describes that the parents do
> have a natural authority and will often command something,"get that
> bowl" and the kids will happily comply because the want to be part of
> things. If they say no, which the option is always there, there is no
> coercion at all,the parent just accepts the child's choice.What do
> they do differently that the children respect the parents natural
> authority? Our AP kids will almost always say no.
>
> It it really so wrong to desire parental authority?
> -Kelly>>>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "Rod Thomas" <rodneykathy@...>
wrote:
really have nothing they want beyond eating-sleeping- being near to you
feel they need to control the child- set limits- train them
Most of the AP kids I know are quite
unschooled- or mainstream parented- this is what 2 yr olds DO
developmentally
I know
need imput and guidance from parents- unschooling is not taking care of
their needs as babies and then letting the fend for themselves for the
rest of their lives
If
anyone want to automatically want to do everything you say just because
you say it "nice"- I am not obligated to fulfill someones request all
the time just because they asked
help parents who have toddlers- because all they have is to fall back on
mainstream parenting
They do modeling,and verbal
3 I would pick her up and take her away from the situation- let her
scream and then hold her- somtimes she just needed to release the energy
but with my now 3 yr old when she was 2 she would be more physically
violent and I would stop her from doing it by saying stop or taking her
arm- the difference was I did not then spank her or send her to time
out- she would also throw everything in sight on the foor and so I
learned to move really fast and get their first and say NO- part of the
key is not more limits but getting them what they needed- she needed to
explore the world jumping climbing checking stuff out and I had to find
a way to say yes and keep her safe- she is so much more mellow a year
later
Will you physically
Is it better to have a physical or
couple years ago they were daily or even hourly- the more I took care of
them the more mellow they became- the more we worked towards finding
solutions the better they got at dealing with frustrations.
just like a 1 yr old
It's
without attaching a punishment- say stop and engage them in something
eles
Or the
out or ONE spanking would STOP the behavior but it does not the kids
still repeart the behavior you are trying to stop
or clean the house BUT they became very good at running to get something
for the other when they were hurt- the compassion the have (when not
fighting) for each other is amazing to see- they say yes and no and
will sometimes do things with me helping them
REALLY work- if you have authority does it mean that your child will
NEVER disobey never hide something- never lie and sneak to get out of
trouble-
Julie
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
>it is easy to be an attachment parent when the baby is a baby- they
> This is from another list. Thought I would bring it here:
> kathy
>
>
> <<<In a way this may come as a bit of a rant, but it really is a
> frustration point for me.I have been in AP groups for years, been on
> discussion lists and in full support of the Continuum Concept. All of
> these things are still things I believe in,meeting the needs of the
> baby, sling wearing, breast feeding on demand,family bed and so on.
really have nothing they want beyond eating-sleeping- being near to you
>once children start to exert their will attachment parenting parents
> The problem I find is as the kids grow from babies into children,they
> become very different people.
feel they need to control the child- set limits- train them
Most of the AP kids I know are quite
> horrible to be around. They whine, they hit, they call siblings andmost kids do this regardless of if they are attachment parented-
> parets names. The parents will tell the child they don't like the
> behavior and try to reason with them,but nothing changes.
unschooled- or mainstream parented- this is what 2 yr olds DO
developmentally
I know
> there was always this feeling that if you did "everything right",I did not know this was part of attachment parenting- children always
> there would be no unmet needs and therefore no need to discpline.
need imput and guidance from parents- unschooling is not taking care of
their needs as babies and then letting the fend for themselves for the
rest of their lives
If
> you were 100% connected with your child the would automatically wantdid not know this was part of attachment parenting either- why would
> to please you by complying to a reasonable request.It is something I
> have read about in Bushmen, but I have never seen in real life.
anyone want to automatically want to do everything you say just because
you say it "nice"- I am not obligated to fulfill someones request all
the time just because they asked
>the problem is that attachment parenting does not really have a way to
> In real life these kids are obnoxoius and the parents have no way to
> influence their behavior to change.
help parents who have toddlers- because all they have is to fall back on
mainstream parenting
They do modeling,and verbal
> resoning,but this is often ignored. I have read on the unschoolingbecause it looks different with each child- my 5 yr old back when she ws
> list where the parents write that they "just don't allow" kids to be
> violent , swear at them or destroy things.They write that they
> will "do what it takes" to stop destructive behavior, but nobody has
> said exactly what it is that they will do.
3 I would pick her up and take her away from the situation- let her
scream and then hold her- somtimes she just needed to release the energy
but with my now 3 yr old when she was 2 she would be more physically
violent and I would stop her from doing it by saying stop or taking her
arm- the difference was I did not then spank her or send her to time
out- she would also throw everything in sight on the foor and so I
learned to move really fast and get their first and say NO- part of the
key is not more limits but getting them what they needed- she needed to
explore the world jumping climbing checking stuff out and I had to find
a way to say yes and keep her safe- she is so much more mellow a year
later
Will you physically
> restrain? Will you hit that child? What do you do when you stand inyou can say NO or STOP and not attach a punishment
> between fighting siblings and they don't stop? How is this so
> different than being punitive?
Is it better to have a physical or
> verbal fight with your child when they are now in a rage and so arethe thing is that my girls rages are few and far between NOW but a
> you? What about when they are bigger? What if they win,do you then
> have to call the police like you would if an adult started acting so
> wild?
couple years ago they were daily or even hourly- the more I took care of
them the more mellow they became- the more we worked towards finding
solutions the better they got at dealing with frustrations.
> It seems there is either permissive parenting where even if you stateyou say stop or no and engage them in something eles or a alternative
> your dislike of a behvior you have no way to enforce it.
just like a 1 yr old
It's
> comepletely up to weather the child wants to please you or not.not really- that is where the stop the behavior comes in- you stop it
without attaching a punishment- say stop and engage them in something
eles
Or the
> opposition which is authoritarian parenting,not consensual,and youhaving punishments does not mean the behavior ENDS- if it did ONE time
> are able to keep your authority.
out or ONE spanking would STOP the behavior but it does not the kids
still repeart the behavior you are trying to stop
>a lot of times my girls say NO- they do not want to help clean up toys
> In the Continuum Concept the author describes that the parents do
> have a natural authority and will often command something,"get that
> bowl" and the kids will happily comply because the want to be part of
> things. If they say no, which the option is always there, there is no
> coercion at all,the parent just accepts the child's choice.What do
> they do differently that the children respect the parents natural
> authority? Our AP kids will almost always say no.
or clean the house BUT they became very good at running to get something
for the other when they were hurt- the compassion the have (when not
fighting) for each other is amazing to see- they say yes and no and
will sometimes do things with me helping them
>I think you have to see parental authority in a new light- does it
> It it really so wrong to desire parental authority?
> -Kelly>>>>
>
REALLY work- if you have authority does it mean that your child will
NEVER disobey never hide something- never lie and sneak to get out of
trouble-
Julie
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I don't mind you bringing things here, but to tell who wrote it and
on what list might've been a bit much. Next time "anonymize" it please.
-=-What do
they do differently that the children respect the parents natural
authority? Our AP kids will almost always say no.-=-
Who's the "we" in "Our AP kids"!?
And I don't like (somewhere between "don't like" and "hate"
abbreviations like "AP" and "RU." Really don't like them. There are
probably people on this list who read it and didn't know what AP
was. It's Associated Press. Associated Press had it before anyone
else (and it's probably other things in other countries).
-=-If you were 100% connected with your child the would
automatically want to please you by -=-
Not "automatically." Out of regard and respect and love. Maybe she
knows families going through the motions without having real respect
and regard for the children.
Was it this list where someone asked about a child who was "hitting
mommy"? The question about age wasn't answered, and the topic kind
went away (I wouldn't mind if it came back), but my first thought was
that a mother shouldn't refer to herself as "mommy." It's not
normal communication, to refer to oneself in third person. If with
other people I say "I did [whatever] and please let me know..." but
to my children I say "Mommy did this for you, so please let mommy
know..." those kids will know they're being baby-talked.
There was a mom in our La Leche League group that baby-talked her
child, who treated him like a cotton ball, in front of other people.
She would be normal and turn to him and turn soft and weird, and turn
back and be normal. So though she surely considered that she was
including him by his being there, he was spoken to in another mode,
in a separate way. He was clearly NOT part of the people in the
group. He was special and separate.
That's my only guess, in light of the new story brought here.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
on what list might've been a bit much. Next time "anonymize" it please.
-=-What do
they do differently that the children respect the parents natural
authority? Our AP kids will almost always say no.-=-
Who's the "we" in "Our AP kids"!?
And I don't like (somewhere between "don't like" and "hate"
abbreviations like "AP" and "RU." Really don't like them. There are
probably people on this list who read it and didn't know what AP
was. It's Associated Press. Associated Press had it before anyone
else (and it's probably other things in other countries).
-=-If you were 100% connected with your child the would
automatically want to please you by -=-
Not "automatically." Out of regard and respect and love. Maybe she
knows families going through the motions without having real respect
and regard for the children.
Was it this list where someone asked about a child who was "hitting
mommy"? The question about age wasn't answered, and the topic kind
went away (I wouldn't mind if it came back), but my first thought was
that a mother shouldn't refer to herself as "mommy." It's not
normal communication, to refer to oneself in third person. If with
other people I say "I did [whatever] and please let me know..." but
to my children I say "Mommy did this for you, so please let mommy
know..." those kids will know they're being baby-talked.
There was a mom in our La Leche League group that baby-talked her
child, who treated him like a cotton ball, in front of other people.
She would be normal and turn to him and turn soft and weird, and turn
back and be normal. So though she surely considered that she was
including him by his being there, he was spoken to in another mode,
in a separate way. He was clearly NOT part of the people in the
group. He was special and separate.
That's my only guess, in light of the new story brought here.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
m_aduhene
Hi all,
this thread got my attention becos i posted this on another list which
was discussing the same issue:
<<my ds(4) kicked his grandma today and i was mortified. i know the
causes: he was hungry (but we were just outside the pie shop and about
to walk in the door to get food), and he had just pulled his sister's
(play)wig off and she had responded with a couple of punches so he was
already "wound up". i can't remember exactly why he kicked grandma.
my mum (grandma) was fine about it altho it hurt a lot.
my children can be very "vicious" and "violent" with each other (about
2% of the time) and i have tried some of the ideas ppl have suggested
on here, but what do i do after the event as it were? i talked with
them both about the hitting and the kicking, and used the idea i've
used before, from sandra dodd, about them going to jail if they were
adults. then i said i'd had enough and was going to start taking toys
off them if it kept happening (my idea not sandra's). i know this not
the right way to go about it, but what do i do?? my ds also hit me
later for not getting him some crisps when he'd chosen an ice-cream,
so of course i thought i had to carry thru and i said i would take
away his cap.
i know this is not the right way to deal with it and they are
brilliant together a lot of the time.
any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.>>
-one of the "answers" from the other list was that the reader of my
post was horrified that i should talk about jail with my children and
she would never do that...............????????so i am now confused!!
blessings
michelle
this thread got my attention becos i posted this on another list which
was discussing the same issue:
<<my ds(4) kicked his grandma today and i was mortified. i know the
causes: he was hungry (but we were just outside the pie shop and about
to walk in the door to get food), and he had just pulled his sister's
(play)wig off and she had responded with a couple of punches so he was
already "wound up". i can't remember exactly why he kicked grandma.
my mum (grandma) was fine about it altho it hurt a lot.
my children can be very "vicious" and "violent" with each other (about
2% of the time) and i have tried some of the ideas ppl have suggested
on here, but what do i do after the event as it were? i talked with
them both about the hitting and the kicking, and used the idea i've
used before, from sandra dodd, about them going to jail if they were
adults. then i said i'd had enough and was going to start taking toys
off them if it kept happening (my idea not sandra's). i know this not
the right way to go about it, but what do i do?? my ds also hit me
later for not getting him some crisps when he'd chosen an ice-cream,
so of course i thought i had to carry thru and i said i would take
away his cap.
i know this is not the right way to deal with it and they are
brilliant together a lot of the time.
any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.>>
-one of the "answers" from the other list was that the reader of my
post was horrified that i should talk about jail with my children and
she would never do that...............????????so i am now confused!!
blessings
michelle
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 8, 2008, at 11:17 PM, m_aduhene wrote:
and carry him out - as gently as possible, but firmly.
Parents talk and talk but are seldom very clear. Think now about what
you'll do next time. Think of what you really want to say and say it
in just 3 or 4 words.
And pay more attention to what is happening right before the violence
- THAT is when you really need to intervene.
So - make a plan. Maybe just before things get violent, the kids get a
little loud. Or maybe there is a certain tone of voice you recognize.
Next time the signals start to appear - you have a plan. You're going
to, for example, jump in with a joke: "Hey - guess what?" "What?"
"That's what!" ANything to break up the tension. Just one idea - you
have to think up what might be distracting for your own kids.
Imagine if your husband or a good friend had a little too much to
drink and was behaving in a way that you're sure would embarrass him
if wasn't drunk. Might you step in to kind of guide him back to better
behavior? Maybe intervene if you saw some problem developing? Do your
kid the same favor.
-pam
> i can't remember exactly why he kicked grandma.I'd take the child out of the room - outdoors even. I'd pick him up
> my mum (grandma) was fine about it altho it hurt a lot.
> my children can be very "vicious" and "violent" with each other (about
> 2% of the time) and i have tried some of the ideas ppl have suggested
> on here, but what do i do after the event as it were?
and carry him out - as gently as possible, but firmly.
Parents talk and talk but are seldom very clear. Think now about what
you'll do next time. Think of what you really want to say and say it
in just 3 or 4 words.
And pay more attention to what is happening right before the violence
- THAT is when you really need to intervene.
So - make a plan. Maybe just before things get violent, the kids get a
little loud. Or maybe there is a certain tone of voice you recognize.
Next time the signals start to appear - you have a plan. You're going
to, for example, jump in with a joke: "Hey - guess what?" "What?"
"That's what!" ANything to break up the tension. Just one idea - you
have to think up what might be distracting for your own kids.
Imagine if your husband or a good friend had a little too much to
drink and was behaving in a way that you're sure would embarrass him
if wasn't drunk. Might you step in to kind of guide him back to better
behavior? Maybe intervene if you saw some problem developing? Do your
kid the same favor.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=--one of the "answers" from the other list was that the reader of my
post was horrified that i should talk about jail with my children and
she would never do that...............????????so i am now confused!! -=-
Well it WAS an answer, not an "answer." You asked for help/ideas,
and people gave them. Same here, same anywhere.
I don't think anyone here is saying "Do what I say or I'll take away
your cap." It's "Here's what I did, here's why..." and then from all
the answers you can find anywhere in the world, and from the voices
in your head (messages you've internalized through your life one way
or another), you sort through and think and do what YOU will do.
When I was first was learning ballads I was 14, nearly 15. I would
learn one and LOVE it, and the newest was always my favorite, and I
was thrilled to know these pieces of history. Then I would hear
another version of the same ballad and be disturbed--sometimes
distraught, that now mine wasn't IT, the "real one." But that's what
makes ballads wonderful, is that each is one of a larger family of
traditional ballads.
By the time I was 17 or 18, I started loving finding more ballads.
But here's what helped (besides just age and maturity): Finding the
*third* version.
When there were two, it seemed like I had to choose one and reject
the other. When there were three, or four or five, it became a
collection. Sometimes I could choose one or the other depending on
the audience. SCA/medieval event? Singing for 12 year olds in the
classroom? A party with other folksingers? Different
considerations, different choices. I know two versions of Matty
Grove all the way through. One is fast and one's very slow and a
little monotonous, but more effective if the audience is in the mood
for a serious dramatic ballad. One of the best preserved and oldest
ballads I know, that I got from tradition directly (from Beth
VanOver, Jean Ritchie's cousin, from one of their older uncles) has
wonderful lyrics but sounds like cowboy music. That's not a problem,
musicologically. But I don't sing it at SCA events because it
doesn't "evoke the period."
Blah blah blah, but that's all to say that living by principle isn't
the same as living by a set of rules. It seems the same at first.
I would never have a rule about what I would and wouldn't talk to my
children about, because I talk to them as people. I'm not working
from a script. I think that it's dishonest NOT to tell a child at
some point that he does NOT have the right to act anyway his mother
will allow him to act. Historically, some people's mothers have
encouraged them to murder and rob. That didn't keep them from being
imprisoned or shot by police.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
post was horrified that i should talk about jail with my children and
she would never do that...............????????so i am now confused!! -=-
Well it WAS an answer, not an "answer." You asked for help/ideas,
and people gave them. Same here, same anywhere.
I don't think anyone here is saying "Do what I say or I'll take away
your cap." It's "Here's what I did, here's why..." and then from all
the answers you can find anywhere in the world, and from the voices
in your head (messages you've internalized through your life one way
or another), you sort through and think and do what YOU will do.
When I was first was learning ballads I was 14, nearly 15. I would
learn one and LOVE it, and the newest was always my favorite, and I
was thrilled to know these pieces of history. Then I would hear
another version of the same ballad and be disturbed--sometimes
distraught, that now mine wasn't IT, the "real one." But that's what
makes ballads wonderful, is that each is one of a larger family of
traditional ballads.
By the time I was 17 or 18, I started loving finding more ballads.
But here's what helped (besides just age and maturity): Finding the
*third* version.
When there were two, it seemed like I had to choose one and reject
the other. When there were three, or four or five, it became a
collection. Sometimes I could choose one or the other depending on
the audience. SCA/medieval event? Singing for 12 year olds in the
classroom? A party with other folksingers? Different
considerations, different choices. I know two versions of Matty
Grove all the way through. One is fast and one's very slow and a
little monotonous, but more effective if the audience is in the mood
for a serious dramatic ballad. One of the best preserved and oldest
ballads I know, that I got from tradition directly (from Beth
VanOver, Jean Ritchie's cousin, from one of their older uncles) has
wonderful lyrics but sounds like cowboy music. That's not a problem,
musicologically. But I don't sing it at SCA events because it
doesn't "evoke the period."
Blah blah blah, but that's all to say that living by principle isn't
the same as living by a set of rules. It seems the same at first.
I would never have a rule about what I would and wouldn't talk to my
children about, because I talk to them as people. I'm not working
from a script. I think that it's dishonest NOT to tell a child at
some point that he does NOT have the right to act anyway his mother
will allow him to act. Historically, some people's mothers have
encouraged them to murder and rob. That didn't keep them from being
imprisoned or shot by police.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 9, 2008, at 2:17 AM, m_aduhene wrote:
didn't want their grandma to think you thought it appropriate
behavior and 2) you wanted your words to end the behavior.
Rather than focusing on their problem you turned them into the
problem. Kids who are in the midst of needing something and lack the
power or understanding of how to get it -- and sometimes don't even
know what they want! -- are not the most receptive to ideas about
*your* problems ;-)
As Pam suggested, being aware of what leads up to something like this
is huge.
You were feeling powerless and chose to take even more power from
beings who have little power to begin with.
I suspect he was tired or stressed or *something*. He needed
something and may not even have known what it was. It was his way of
communicating that.
Get to him *before* he needs to resort to such over the top tactics
to get your attention.
It won't eliminate it all but you'll get better at avoiding
situations the better you get at being mindful of their needs before
they're even aware they have needs ;-) (And, in the meantime, they'll
get older and better at understanding themselves and better at using
better tools to communicate.)
parents sometimes use to control kids: "If you don't stop, I'm going
to get that policeman over there to make you stop."
Sandra used pointing out that adults go to jail as *information* to
help the kids see the situation differently, to help them make better
choices.
Joyce
> but what do i do after the event as it were? i talked withI think where you went off course was 1) you were embarrassed and
> them both about the hitting and the kicking, and used the idea i've
> used before, from sandra dodd, about them going to jail if they were
> adults. then i said i'd had enough and was going to start taking toys
> off them if it kept happening
didn't want their grandma to think you thought it appropriate
behavior and 2) you wanted your words to end the behavior.
Rather than focusing on their problem you turned them into the
problem. Kids who are in the midst of needing something and lack the
power or understanding of how to get it -- and sometimes don't even
know what they want! -- are not the most receptive to ideas about
*your* problems ;-)
As Pam suggested, being aware of what leads up to something like this
is huge.
> my ds also hit meNo, you didn't have to. You chose to.
> later for not getting him some crisps when he'd chosen an ice-cream,
> so of course i thought i had to carry thru and i said i would take
> away his cap.
>
You were feeling powerless and chose to take even more power from
beings who have little power to begin with.
I suspect he was tired or stressed or *something*. He needed
something and may not even have known what it was. It was his way of
communicating that.
Get to him *before* he needs to resort to such over the top tactics
to get your attention.
It won't eliminate it all but you'll get better at avoiding
situations the better you get at being mindful of their needs before
they're even aware they have needs ;-) (And, in the meantime, they'll
get older and better at understanding themselves and better at using
better tools to communicate.)
> one of the "answers" from the other list was that the reader of myWhat I suspect the person read into what you said was the threat that
> post was horrified that i should talk about jail with my children and
> she would never do that...............????????so i am now confused!!
>
parents sometimes use to control kids: "If you don't stop, I'm going
to get that policeman over there to make you stop."
Sandra used pointing out that adults go to jail as *information* to
help the kids see the situation differently, to help them make better
choices.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-What I suspect the person read into what you said was the threat that
parents sometimes use to control kids: "If you don't stop, I'm going
to get that policeman over there to make you stop."-=-
I did kinda say that to a mom who was spanking her kid in the garden
center at Lowe's a year or two ago. I said "If a man were hitting
you, someone would call the police."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
parents sometimes use to control kids: "If you don't stop, I'm going
to get that policeman over there to make you stop."-=-
I did kinda say that to a mom who was spanking her kid in the garden
center at Lowe's a year or two ago. I said "If a man were hitting
you, someone would call the police."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~-one of the "answers" from the other list was that the reader of my
post was horrified that i should talk about jail with my children and
she would never do that...............???????~~
I might use that with a teen, but certainly not a young child for whom
that could be really frightening and besides, it's unecessary.
I HAVE used the example of "what if Dad and I treated each other the
way you're treating each other right now? How would it feel to be in a
house where that was ok?" to help explain to them how hurtful it would
be if that behavior was the norm here.
I have blocked hits,I have side-stepped hits or throws, I have removed
children from situations, I have offered up items that are ok to throw
or hit, I let them know without a doubt that it is not acceptable to
hit me. We leave a situation if the child is not able to be at their
best at that moment. I can't imagine going into a restaurant when a
child just hit someone. That is a sign that they are overwhelmed or
hungry or whatever....but NOT ready to be in public.
There are so many options. One person could go in and get food and
bring it out where you could eat at a park where the child might be
able to be at their best in that moment. Maybe it was time to go home.
Maybe a LOT of things leading up to the hitting could have been
handled better. I don't know. But I know if my child is at the point
where lashing out is their tool, we don't need to be in public any
longer. Both for my child's emotional safety and for the sake of
other people's peace and calm.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
post was horrified that i should talk about jail with my children and
she would never do that...............???????~~
I might use that with a teen, but certainly not a young child for whom
that could be really frightening and besides, it's unecessary.
I HAVE used the example of "what if Dad and I treated each other the
way you're treating each other right now? How would it feel to be in a
house where that was ok?" to help explain to them how hurtful it would
be if that behavior was the norm here.
I have blocked hits,I have side-stepped hits or throws, I have removed
children from situations, I have offered up items that are ok to throw
or hit, I let them know without a doubt that it is not acceptable to
hit me. We leave a situation if the child is not able to be at their
best at that moment. I can't imagine going into a restaurant when a
child just hit someone. That is a sign that they are overwhelmed or
hungry or whatever....but NOT ready to be in public.
There are so many options. One person could go in and get food and
bring it out where you could eat at a park where the child might be
able to be at their best in that moment. Maybe it was time to go home.
Maybe a LOT of things leading up to the hitting could have been
handled better. I don't know. But I know if my child is at the point
where lashing out is their tool, we don't need to be in public any
longer. Both for my child's emotional safety and for the sake of
other people's peace and calm.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
MLewis
I don't think the poser of these questions is on this list, but wanted
to address them anyway.
I think that lumping them together is the beginning of not dealing with
them in a thinking, reasoning manner. I will stop violence in my home,
but I'm not going to "do what it takes" to stop swearing. We don't
happen to swear in our home (the kids would probably say that I have
the "dirtiest" mouth and that's for saying 'crap'). And if something
is theirs and they want to destoy it, well...that can be a lot of
fun!
out how to communicate he'll hit. I will put my hand between him and
myself or whoever he's hitting at. If he senses that I am trying to
honestly discern his problem that will probably be enough. If he's
overwrought and tries to keep hitting then I would hold him so that he
couldn't inflict injury on anyone. But there's a BIG difference
between holding a child with frustration in your heart and in your
voice and berating them for their behavior and holding them with love
and concern and really trying to figure out what's causing their
distress. And even in that second scenario there's a difference
between loving them calmly and maturely or with whining and cajoling.
stop hitting."
age is try and figure out how their environment has been contributing
to their behavior. Are they looking for power because something has
been making them feel powerless?? Has it been me?!?!?
into a rage yourself.
thinking is to change the children when most of the change needs to
happen with the adult.
turn things around though. Sad when things get to a point where one
thinks in terms of who wins.
Mary
to address them anyway.
>I have read on the unschoolingViolence, swearing and destruction of things are different things, and
>list where the parents write that they "just don't allow" kids to be
>violent , swear at them or destroy things.They write that they
>will "do what it takes" to stop destructive behavior, but nobody has
>said exactly what it is that they will do.
I think that lumping them together is the beginning of not dealing with
them in a thinking, reasoning manner. I will stop violence in my home,
but I'm not going to "do what it takes" to stop swearing. We don't
happen to swear in our home (the kids would probably say that I have
the "dirtiest" mouth and that's for saying 'crap'). And if something
is theirs and they want to destoy it, well...that can be a lot of
fun!
>Will you physicallyYes. I have a two yo. Sometimes when he's frustrated and can't figure
>restrain?
out how to communicate he'll hit. I will put my hand between him and
myself or whoever he's hitting at. If he senses that I am trying to
honestly discern his problem that will probably be enough. If he's
overwrought and tries to keep hitting then I would hold him so that he
couldn't inflict injury on anyone. But there's a BIG difference
between holding a child with frustration in your heart and in your
voice and berating them for their behavior and holding them with love
and concern and really trying to figure out what's causing their
distress. And even in that second scenario there's a difference
between loving them calmly and maturely or with whining and cajoling.
>Will you hit that child?No. How illogical would that be?? "I'm going to hit you to get you to
stop hitting."
>What do you do when you stand inThat depends on their age. One thing I would do no matter WHAT their
>between fighting siblings and they don't stop?
age is try and figure out how their environment has been contributing
to their behavior. Are they looking for power because something has
been making them feel powerless?? Has it been me?!?!?
>How is this soHow is what different? Is there an assumption being made here?
>different than being punitive?
>Is it better to have a physical orAnother assumption. Start thinking about what you can do to not go
>verbal fight with your child when they are now in a rage and so are
>you?
into a rage yourself.
>What about when they are bigger?All the more reason to change the path. But it sounds here that the
thinking is to change the children when most of the change needs to
happen with the adult.
>What if they win,do you thenAgain, some things depend on the age. I hope it's never to late to
>have to call the police like you would if an adult started acting so
>wild?
turn things around though. Sad when things get to a point where one
thinks in terms of who wins.
Mary
Ren Allen
~~> my ds also hit me
cap than stand there while he hit you I suppose,but there are lots of
even more useful options.
If I just got hit, I might say "you know, I really don't like helping
people who hit me,if you want to talk about this then DON'T hit me and
I can listen better" or something along those lines. It's hard for me
to write what I would say because it would SO greatly depend on the
child, the situation, my coping tools etc...
Less words is better for Jalen. So I might say "If you want to talk,do
not hit me"
Then I would really, truly listen to what they were upset about. "You
really wanted the crisps?" and let them explain their frustration.
Whether or not you can make the desire happen, that child needs to be
heard and understood more than anything.
In the future, you could recognize what makes that person feel
helpless or frustrated and take measures to avoid it. We always take
snacks and drinks when we got out for instance. Giving the child their
own money to make choices with might be another way to empower them.
Being proactive is part of being a mindful parent. We are the beings
with greater experience and ability to utilize resources in society,
so we need to bring that to them and USE that awareness.Both of our
children and of available resources that will help them!
A child that is hitting is usually out of tools or doesn't have very
useful ones to begin with yet. They need MORE help,more awareness, a
more proactive and mindful parent. Throwing our weight around isn't
helping them see better ways to function in this world.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> later for not getting him some crisps when he'd chosen an ice-cream,Well actually, you didn't HAVE TO do anything. Better to take away the
> so of course i thought i had to carry thru and i said i would take
> away his cap.~~
cap than stand there while he hit you I suppose,but there are lots of
even more useful options.
If I just got hit, I might say "you know, I really don't like helping
people who hit me,if you want to talk about this then DON'T hit me and
I can listen better" or something along those lines. It's hard for me
to write what I would say because it would SO greatly depend on the
child, the situation, my coping tools etc...
Less words is better for Jalen. So I might say "If you want to talk,do
not hit me"
Then I would really, truly listen to what they were upset about. "You
really wanted the crisps?" and let them explain their frustration.
Whether or not you can make the desire happen, that child needs to be
heard and understood more than anything.
In the future, you could recognize what makes that person feel
helpless or frustrated and take measures to avoid it. We always take
snacks and drinks when we got out for instance. Giving the child their
own money to make choices with might be another way to empower them.
Being proactive is part of being a mindful parent. We are the beings
with greater experience and ability to utilize resources in society,
so we need to bring that to them and USE that awareness.Both of our
children and of available resources that will help them!
A child that is hitting is usually out of tools or doesn't have very
useful ones to begin with yet. They need MORE help,more awareness, a
more proactive and mindful parent. Throwing our weight around isn't
helping them see better ways to function in this world.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Sandra Dodd
Mary, I loved your whole post but this is important and I hope some
of it (at least this part) can be taken back to the list where it
came from:
-=-
turn things around though. Sad when things get to a point where one
thinks in terms of who wins.
Mary-=-
If you see yourself as your child's partner rather than his
adversary, then you both can win.
If the relationship is adversarial, doesn't there have to be a loser?
I've thought a lot lately, and sadly, about how very many losers
school *must* create. No options. It's where the winners come from,
standing out in a sea of non-winners.
I hadn't thought until I saw Mary's writing, though, that every
adversarial parent/child dyad also has a loser.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of it (at least this part) can be taken back to the list where it
came from:
-=-
>What if they win,do you thenAgain, some things depend on the age. I hope it's never to late to
>have to call the police like you would if an adult started acting so
>wild?
turn things around though. Sad when things get to a point where one
thinks in terms of who wins.
Mary-=-
If you see yourself as your child's partner rather than his
adversary, then you both can win.
If the relationship is adversarial, doesn't there have to be a loser?
I've thought a lot lately, and sadly, about how very many losers
school *must* create. No options. It's where the winners come from,
standing out in a sea of non-winners.
I hadn't thought until I saw Mary's writing, though, that every
adversarial parent/child dyad also has a loser.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-A child that is hitting is usually out of tools or doesn't have very
useful ones to begin with yet. They need MORE help,more awareness, a
more proactive and mindful parent. Throwing our weight around isn't
helping them see better ways to function in this world.-=-
Yes.
And in the examples given, I suspect the child had spoken and tried
to get attention, and was being put off or ignored. Even "wait a
minute" can get old when it's not pretty quickly followed up by some
VERY direct attention. Don't say "in a minute" if you don't mean it.
And if mothers want to throw some weight around, let it be toward
other adults who will lure, encourage and expect you to ignore your
kids.
I've had friends over who figured they were visiting and so would be
the center of my attention. But when I had kids, they had come to my
work, to my place of business, and the kids came first. If they
wanted my undivided attention, they needed to buy me dinner on a
night when Keith could keep the kids. Nobody got to drop in and
tell me to ignore my kids while they were there.
I've seen moms I knew and lots more I didn't get out in public with
their mothers, and they become one of the kids, powerless to protect
or defend their own children. Maybe even then, when you're out with
grandparents for lunch or a vacation, remember you are on duty--
you're your child's partner, protector, defender, spokesman (if he
needs one). Make sure he's not being shunted off to the side.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
useful ones to begin with yet. They need MORE help,more awareness, a
more proactive and mindful parent. Throwing our weight around isn't
helping them see better ways to function in this world.-=-
Yes.
And in the examples given, I suspect the child had spoken and tried
to get attention, and was being put off or ignored. Even "wait a
minute" can get old when it's not pretty quickly followed up by some
VERY direct attention. Don't say "in a minute" if you don't mean it.
And if mothers want to throw some weight around, let it be toward
other adults who will lure, encourage and expect you to ignore your
kids.
I've had friends over who figured they were visiting and so would be
the center of my attention. But when I had kids, they had come to my
work, to my place of business, and the kids came first. If they
wanted my undivided attention, they needed to buy me dinner on a
night when Keith could keep the kids. Nobody got to drop in and
tell me to ignore my kids while they were there.
I've seen moms I knew and lots more I didn't get out in public with
their mothers, and they become one of the kids, powerless to protect
or defend their own children. Maybe even then, when you're out with
grandparents for lunch or a vacation, remember you are on duty--
you're your child's partner, protector, defender, spokesman (if he
needs one). Make sure he's not being shunted off to the side.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "Emily Milikow"
<emily.milikow@...> wrote:
for a long time- they know what a closed one looks like and that an open
one can cut them- in contrast my sister related to me that her son
(basically same age range) was checking out her razor and when he saw
her he hid it behind his back and ran to his room to hide- her solution
was to hide it better from him-
I remember being left home alone and basically searching the house for
all things hidden-
Julie
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<emily.milikow@...> wrote:
>of
>.
> The point is that I don't want my son to behave that way out of fear
> getting yelled at or some other negative repercussion. And thesewhiskey
> "well-behaved" kids are the same ones who later steal their parents'
> to refill with water (Sandra's recent example).this is so true- my daughters have been "shaving" with a closed razor
>
> --Emily
for a long time- they know what a closed one looks like and that an open
one can cut them- in contrast my sister related to me that her son
(basically same age range) was checking out her razor and when he saw
her he hid it behind his back and ran to his room to hide- her solution
was to hide it better from him-
I remember being left home alone and basically searching the house for
all things hidden-
Julie
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 9, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
grownup punched another grownup they could end up in jail for it."
It isn't to frighten them - it is to give them information. I guess it
depends on the tone of voice you're hearing this in, but I don't see
it as that odd to say it.
-pam
> ~~-one of the "answers" from the other list was that the reader of myI can easily imagine saying, to a child, "Hitting is serious. If a
> post was horrified that i should talk about jail with my children and
> she would never do that...............???????~~
>
> I might use that with a teen, but certainly not a young child for whom
> that could be really frightening and besides, it's unecessary.
grownup punched another grownup they could end up in jail for it."
It isn't to frighten them - it is to give them information. I guess it
depends on the tone of voice you're hearing this in, but I don't see
it as that odd to say it.
-pam
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 9, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
advocating is paying very very close attention to our children - the
opposite of what people usually think of as "permissive" parenting.
This could be called "Attentive Parenting" - observe, learn all you
can about your children, listen carefully to them, anticipate their
wants and needs, strive to be their partner - their adult partner who
knows a lot and has a lot of resources and is THERE for them. Help
them be the best they can be. That's what THEY want and it is also
what you want and it is what creates lots of joy in life.
Think about how you feel when you are "out of sorts." What will help
you? What do you want from your family? I doubt it would help you for
your husband to threaten, "If you behave badly again I'm going to take
away your cell phone." You WANT to feel better, happier, nicer, right?
What you need is support for doing what you, deep down, want for
yourself. Same with your kids. Lots of times that means to help them
have the chance to be alone to recenter themselves. I like to take a
hot shower or go running or get deeply lost in a good book. Sometimes
I can adjust my mood by reading email (or browsing around on Sandra or
Joyce's websites). Your kids don't KNOW yet what helps them - your
role is to help them figure it out. Threatening them with taking
things away is not helpful - it ADDS to their stress and makes them
feel unloved on top of everything else. How can that be a good idea?
-pam
> Then I would really, truly listen to what they were upset about. "YouI want to emphasize again what Ren said and point out that what we're
> really wanted the crisps?" and let them explain their frustration.
> Whether or not you can make the desire happen, that child needs to be
> heard and understood more than anything.
>
> In the future, you could recognize what makes that person feel
> helpless or frustrated and take measures to avoid it.
advocating is paying very very close attention to our children - the
opposite of what people usually think of as "permissive" parenting.
This could be called "Attentive Parenting" - observe, learn all you
can about your children, listen carefully to them, anticipate their
wants and needs, strive to be their partner - their adult partner who
knows a lot and has a lot of resources and is THERE for them. Help
them be the best they can be. That's what THEY want and it is also
what you want and it is what creates lots of joy in life.
Think about how you feel when you are "out of sorts." What will help
you? What do you want from your family? I doubt it would help you for
your husband to threaten, "If you behave badly again I'm going to take
away your cell phone." You WANT to feel better, happier, nicer, right?
What you need is support for doing what you, deep down, want for
yourself. Same with your kids. Lots of times that means to help them
have the chance to be alone to recenter themselves. I like to take a
hot shower or go running or get deeply lost in a good book. Sometimes
I can adjust my mood by reading email (or browsing around on Sandra or
Joyce's websites). Your kids don't KNOW yet what helps them - your
role is to help them figure it out. Threatening them with taking
things away is not helpful - it ADDS to their stress and makes them
feel unloved on top of everything else. How can that be a good idea?
-pam
Sandra Dodd
Well perfect!!!
Now I have a name for a page I needed.
-=-This could be called "Attentive Parenting" - observe, learn all you
can about your children, listen carefully to them, anticipate their
wants and needs, strive to be their partner-=-
Kelly Lovejoy just sent me something really good from the
UnschoolingBasics list, and I wanted to put it on a page but wasn't
sure where. It will be on my new attentive parenting page (until
someone writes and threatens to sue me because they're trademarked
that, as someone did about "Peaceful Parenting." Soon we'll have no
free words left.
Deb Rossing wrote this, in the future (1:06 hasn't come here yet,
but I guess she, or at least Kelly, is on Eastern time)
As many have said over much time and many threads, go easy. Don't pull
the rug out from under everyone - it just gets messy. Instead, just say
Yes more; say Why not? Instead of No; think through that first reaction
- what is your reason for saying No to that, is it a real thing (based
in some real situation such as No hitting your sibling) or is it a
leftover tape of Mom has to be in control at all times and they have to
learn that they don't always get their own way. And, too, when a No
arises (as in I'm sorry but I can't make a banana smoothie because we're
out of bananas), find a Yes in it - (...but I can write bananas on the
grocery list right now so I don't forget and I'll be going shopping in
two days when it's pay day. Or, No, we can't get to the beach today, the
car is broken. How about we have a picnic lunch outside and then play in
the sprinkler in the back yard? And, if you don't have a sprinkler or a
backyard, a living room picnic and maybe getting in the shower with your
clothes on would be silly fun) Bottom line is look for ways to be a
helpful partner to your kids - you've got the car keys and the money,
you can facilitate their exploration of the world...or not, your choice
- rather than being their adversary enforcing your view on them rather
than helping them embrace their own view of the world.
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Now I have a name for a page I needed.
-=-This could be called "Attentive Parenting" - observe, learn all you
can about your children, listen carefully to them, anticipate their
wants and needs, strive to be their partner-=-
Kelly Lovejoy just sent me something really good from the
UnschoolingBasics list, and I wanted to put it on a page but wasn't
sure where. It will be on my new attentive parenting page (until
someone writes and threatens to sue me because they're trademarked
that, as someone did about "Peaceful Parenting." Soon we'll have no
free words left.
Deb Rossing wrote this, in the future (1:06 hasn't come here yet,
but I guess she, or at least Kelly, is on Eastern time)
As many have said over much time and many threads, go easy. Don't pull
the rug out from under everyone - it just gets messy. Instead, just say
Yes more; say Why not? Instead of No; think through that first reaction
- what is your reason for saying No to that, is it a real thing (based
in some real situation such as No hitting your sibling) or is it a
leftover tape of Mom has to be in control at all times and they have to
learn that they don't always get their own way. And, too, when a No
arises (as in I'm sorry but I can't make a banana smoothie because we're
out of bananas), find a Yes in it - (...but I can write bananas on the
grocery list right now so I don't forget and I'll be going shopping in
two days when it's pay day. Or, No, we can't get to the beach today, the
car is broken. How about we have a picnic lunch outside and then play in
the sprinkler in the back yard? And, if you don't have a sprinkler or a
backyard, a living room picnic and maybe getting in the shower with your
clothes on would be silly fun) Bottom line is look for ways to be a
helpful partner to your kids - you've got the car keys and the money,
you can facilitate their exploration of the world...or not, your choice
- rather than being their adversary enforcing your view on them rather
than helping them embrace their own view of the world.
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~~~I want to emphasize again what Ren said and point out that what
we're advocating is paying very very close attention to our children -
the opposite of what people usually think of as "permissive"
parenting. This could be called "Attentive Parenting" - observe, learn
all you can about your children, listen carefully to them, anticipate
their wants and needs, strive to be their partner .....~~~
I think it was Marji who called it "super-parenting" at Unschooling
Basics in a recent discussion. I love both terms!
~~ You WANT to feel better, happier, nicer, right?
moment I DO want people to be extra supportive and patient with me.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
we're advocating is paying very very close attention to our children -
the opposite of what people usually think of as "permissive"
parenting. This could be called "Attentive Parenting" - observe, learn
all you can about your children, listen carefully to them, anticipate
their wants and needs, strive to be their partner .....~~~
I think it was Marji who called it "super-parenting" at Unschooling
Basics in a recent discussion. I love both terms!
~~ You WANT to feel better, happier, nicer, right?
> What you need is support for doing what you, deep down, want forAnd if I DON'T want to feel better, happier, nicer etc...right in that
> yourself.~~
moment I DO want people to be extra supportive and patient with me.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~I think it was Marji who called it "super-parenting" at Unschooling
Melissa Gray originated that term over on the Unschooling Basics list.
The discussion had been about autistic and "special needs" children
but I think the "super-parenting" term implies the same thing that
mindful/connected/attentive parenting does.
Here's what Melissa said(and now we all refer to that term regularly
it seems!):
~~Parenting my quirky children is no different than
parenting my totally mainstream children. It takes more work, you
have to be open constantly and totally on them, I call it
superparenting, but really again, it's the same parenting.~~
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> Basics in a recent discussion. I love both terms! ~~I was incorrect.
Melissa Gray originated that term over on the Unschooling Basics list.
The discussion had been about autistic and "special needs" children
but I think the "super-parenting" term implies the same thing that
mindful/connected/attentive parenting does.
Here's what Melissa said(and now we all refer to that term regularly
it seems!):
~~Parenting my quirky children is no different than
parenting my totally mainstream children. It takes more work, you
have to be open constantly and totally on them, I call it
superparenting, but really again, it's the same parenting.~~
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was incorrect.
Melissa Gray originated that term over on the Unschooling Basics list.
The discussion had been about autistic and "special needs" children
but I think the "super-parenting" term implies the same thing that
mindful/connected/attentive parenting does.
Here's what Melissa said(and now we all refer to that term regularly
it seems!):
~~Parenting my quirky children is no different than
parenting my totally mainstream children. It takes more work, you
have to be open constantly and totally on them, I call it
superparenting, but really again, it's the same parenting.~~-=-
==================================================
Isn't it a shame that people can feel satisfied in their parenting
when they are NOT being mindful, connected or attentive? <BWG>
This culture, screwy as it is, encourages people to think that "good
parents" are mean, humorless, punitive, cold-hearted, scary,
demanding, commanding, controlling, derisive enemies of children.
I saw one this morning at the grocery store. She was telling her kid
how to walk, what to do, how and when to get in the car... No doubt
she thinks she can command her child's thoughts and emotions.
The adrenaline is upon me about something else that happened this
morning, not parent/child/unschooling related. I better go work in
my yard or something!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Gray originated that term over on the Unschooling Basics list.
The discussion had been about autistic and "special needs" children
but I think the "super-parenting" term implies the same thing that
mindful/connected/attentive parenting does.
Here's what Melissa said(and now we all refer to that term regularly
it seems!):
~~Parenting my quirky children is no different than
parenting my totally mainstream children. It takes more work, you
have to be open constantly and totally on them, I call it
superparenting, but really again, it's the same parenting.~~-=-
==================================================
Isn't it a shame that people can feel satisfied in their parenting
when they are NOT being mindful, connected or attentive? <BWG>
This culture, screwy as it is, encourages people to think that "good
parents" are mean, humorless, punitive, cold-hearted, scary,
demanding, commanding, controlling, derisive enemies of children.
I saw one this morning at the grocery store. She was telling her kid
how to walk, what to do, how and when to get in the car... No doubt
she thinks she can command her child's thoughts and emotions.
The adrenaline is upon me about something else that happened this
morning, not parent/child/unschooling related. I better go work in
my yard or something!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
(Sandra)
I've had friends over who figured they were visiting and so would be
the center of my attention. But when I had kids, they had come to my
work, to my place of business, and the kids came first. If they
wanted my undivided attention, they needed to buy me dinner on a
night when Keith could keep the kids. Nobody got to drop in and
tell me to ignore my kids while they were there.
*****
YES YES YES, this is what I never managed to get across to my own mother. She would drop by or call me on the phone, then complain when the kids 'interrupted' our visit and I 'rewarded bad behavior' by helping them with whatever. She never recognized that by visiting or calling she'd interrupted me in my work.
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've had friends over who figured they were visiting and so would be
the center of my attention. But when I had kids, they had come to my
work, to my place of business, and the kids came first. If they
wanted my undivided attention, they needed to buy me dinner on a
night when Keith could keep the kids. Nobody got to drop in and
tell me to ignore my kids while they were there.
*****
YES YES YES, this is what I never managed to get across to my own mother. She would drop by or call me on the phone, then complain when the kids 'interrupted' our visit and I 'rewarded bad behavior' by helping them with whatever. She never recognized that by visiting or calling she'd interrupted me in my work.
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicole Willoughby
And if I DON'T want to feel better, happier, nicer etc...right in that
moment I DO want people to be extra supportive and patient with me.:)
Nate is refusing to get in his carseat , the girls are fighting and Alyssa starts crying momma! At this point Im just so stressed and the niceness is gone! I get Nate strapped in, stop my feet and yell I need a time out!
They all started gigling which made me laugh. I opened the cooler and passed out drinks and snacks . The whole mood had changed and then I was able to be the mom I want to be.
Alyssa needed a bathroom, Courtney was very hungry and wanted a meal and a snack seemed to take care for Nates needs. Everything got taken care of and all needs were met .
Nicole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
moment I DO want people to be extra supportive and patient with me.:)
>>>>>>>>A few weeks ago I had to take Nate down to childrens hospital 2 hours away to see a GI specialist. The original plan was a sitter for the girls but the sitter had an emergency and I didnt have anyone else that could watch them. Courtney started out in a negative mood because she did not want to go. Then in the Dr's office I was trying to calm my screaming son, fill out paperwork and keep the girls entertained during the long wait. The appt ends and we get sent for bloodwork 4 blocks away. We go out and its about to rain so we get in the van.
Nate is refusing to get in his carseat , the girls are fighting and Alyssa starts crying momma! At this point Im just so stressed and the niceness is gone! I get Nate strapped in, stop my feet and yell I need a time out!
They all started gigling which made me laugh. I opened the cooler and passed out drinks and snacks . The whole mood had changed and then I was able to be the mom I want to be.
Alyssa needed a bathroom, Courtney was very hungry and wanted a meal and a snack seemed to take care for Nates needs. Everything got taken care of and all needs were met .
Nicole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
m_aduhene
Hi,
i know sandra has said we shouldn't post to say thankyou but i can't
help myself.....thankyou for all your replies. i spend my life with
my children and so much want their lives to be good and happy. they
have never been to school, nursery, playgroup as i wanted to be there
for them. my ds behaviour does challenge all the things i have seen
used in "mainstream parenting", and i know i don't want to go down
that path, and that is why your comments have been so helpful. i DO
feel a lot of pressure to conform to what i think others want to see
me doing ie.punish him,and that is something i need to change. i DO
know him so well i have been with him almost every day since he was
born (apart from an illness i had after his younger sister was born).
i just think ive got sidetracked and as sandra said only given myself
2 choices "behave or else". thanks to your thoughtful responses i
will use your suggestions and/or create my own based on them.
blessings
michelle
i know sandra has said we shouldn't post to say thankyou but i can't
help myself.....thankyou for all your replies. i spend my life with
my children and so much want their lives to be good and happy. they
have never been to school, nursery, playgroup as i wanted to be there
for them. my ds behaviour does challenge all the things i have seen
used in "mainstream parenting", and i know i don't want to go down
that path, and that is why your comments have been so helpful. i DO
feel a lot of pressure to conform to what i think others want to see
me doing ie.punish him,and that is something i need to change. i DO
know him so well i have been with him almost every day since he was
born (apart from an illness i had after his younger sister was born).
i just think ive got sidetracked and as sandra said only given myself
2 choices "behave or else". thanks to your thoughtful responses i
will use your suggestions and/or create my own based on them.
blessings
michelle
Emily Milikow
That's great - I like the term. And I would just add that in terms of the
saying yes part that you can just avoid the no altogether. So, instead of:
I'm sorry but I can't make a banana smoothie because we're
out of bananas, but I can write bananas on the
grocery list right now so I don't forget and I'll be going shopping in
two days when it's pay day.
Instead:
Sure, I'll write bananas on the
grocery list right now so I don't forget and I'll be going shopping in
two days when it's pay day.
--Emily
Yoav (3.5), Elie (7 mos)
http://milikow.blogspot.com
saying yes part that you can just avoid the no altogether. So, instead of:
I'm sorry but I can't make a banana smoothie because we're
out of bananas, but I can write bananas on the
grocery list right now so I don't forget and I'll be going shopping in
two days when it's pay day.
Instead:
Sure, I'll write bananas on the
grocery list right now so I don't forget and I'll be going shopping in
two days when it's pay day.
--Emily
Yoav (3.5), Elie (7 mos)
http://milikow.blogspot.com
On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> Well perfect!!!
>
> Now I have a name for a page I needed.
>
> -=-This could be called "Attentive Parenting" - observe, learn all you
> can about your children, listen carefully to them, anticipate their
> wants and needs, strive to be their partner-=-
>
> Kelly Lovejoy just sent me something really good from the
> UnschoolingBasics list, and I wanted to put it on a page but wasn't
> sure where. It will be on my new attentive parenting page (until
> someone writes and threatens to sue me because they're trademarked
> that, as someone did about "Peaceful Parenting." Soon we'll have no
> free words left.
>
> Deb Rossing wrote this, in the future (1:06 hasn't come here yet,
> but I guess she, or at least Kelly, is on Eastern time)
>
> As many have said over much time and many threads, go easy. Don't pull
> the rug out from under everyone - it just gets messy. Instead, just say
> Yes more; say Why not? Instead of No; think through that first reaction
> - what is your reason for saying No to that, is it a real thing (based
> in some real situation such as No hitting your sibling) or is it a
> leftover tape of Mom has to be in control at all times and they have to
> learn that they don't always get their own way. And, too, when a No
> arises (as in I'm sorry but I can't make a banana smoothie because we're
> out of bananas), find a Yes in it - (...but I can write bananas on the
> grocery list right now so I don't forget and I'll be going shopping in
> two days when it's pay day. Or, No, we can't get to the beach today, the
> car is broken. How about we have a picnic lunch outside and then play in
> the sprinkler in the back yard? And, if you don't have a sprinkler or a
> backyard, a living room picnic and maybe getting in the shower with your
> clothes on would be silly fun) Bottom line is look for ways to be a
> helpful partner to your kids - you've got the car keys and the money,
> you can facilitate their exploration of the world...or not, your choice
> - rather than being their adversary enforcing your view on them rather
> than helping them embrace their own view of the world.
>
> Deb
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Hi,
i know sandra has said we shouldn't post to say thankyou but i can't
help myself.....thankyou for all your replies.-=-
I don't mind people including "thank you" as part of real writing,
but to quote 200 words and write "thank you" is what I've asked
people not to have. Same with "me too" or "that's great!"
Insufficient input.
Never was I recommending against acknowledging gratitude, when it's
part of other writing!
-=-i just think ive got sidetracked and as sandra said only given
myself 2 choices "behave or else". -=-
Giving yourself two choices is way better than the "I have no choice"
thinking most people have. Here's how to use two choices to improve
your choices for next time:
Think of what you did last time that you wish you hadn't done, and
then another option. Until you've thought of another option, wait.
(It shouldn't take long.) Then make the better choice. Next time
such a situation arises, think of two choices--maybe one will be
better than you thought of the last time. Then make the better
choice if you can. If you get flustered and make a bad choice, at
least you chose. And it will help you know what NOT to choose next
time.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
i know sandra has said we shouldn't post to say thankyou but i can't
help myself.....thankyou for all your replies.-=-
I don't mind people including "thank you" as part of real writing,
but to quote 200 words and write "thank you" is what I've asked
people not to have. Same with "me too" or "that's great!"
Insufficient input.
Never was I recommending against acknowledging gratitude, when it's
part of other writing!
-=-i just think ive got sidetracked and as sandra said only given
myself 2 choices "behave or else". -=-
Giving yourself two choices is way better than the "I have no choice"
thinking most people have. Here's how to use two choices to improve
your choices for next time:
Think of what you did last time that you wish you hadn't done, and
then another option. Until you've thought of another option, wait.
(It shouldn't take long.) Then make the better choice. Next time
such a situation arises, think of two choices--maybe one will be
better than you thought of the last time. Then make the better
choice if you can. If you get flustered and make a bad choice, at
least you chose. And it will help you know what NOT to choose next
time.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm sorry but I can't make a banana smoothie because we're
out of bananas, but I can write bananas on the
grocery list right now so I don't forget and I'll be going shopping in
two days when it's pay day.
Instead:
Sure, -=-
As an adult, I'd live with "sure," but if I were three or five years
old, "Sure" would be "sure," and "in two days" would be like a month
or a year.
I think "I'm sorry but I can't" is honesty and true. It's treating
children like people.
If my husband asked if we could have sex, and I said, "Sure..." that
wouldn't seem to be the lead-in to "I'll write sex on the list right
now so I won't forget, and in two days..."
An extreme example, but that's the way analogies work. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
out of bananas, but I can write bananas on the
grocery list right now so I don't forget and I'll be going shopping in
two days when it's pay day.
Instead:
Sure, -=-
As an adult, I'd live with "sure," but if I were three or five years
old, "Sure" would be "sure," and "in two days" would be like a month
or a year.
I think "I'm sorry but I can't" is honesty and true. It's treating
children like people.
If my husband asked if we could have sex, and I said, "Sure..." that
wouldn't seem to be the lead-in to "I'll write sex on the list right
now so I won't forget, and in two days..."
An extreme example, but that's the way analogies work. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
On Jul 9, 2008, at 9:27 AM, MLewis wrote:
of fun from some broken toy by smashing it to bits with a hammer or a
baseball bat. I had two rules for that game: Eye protection had to be
worn (swimming goggles would do) and the bits of plastic had to be
picked up and thrown away, lest they injure one of the dogs.
Nancy
> And if something"Smashy smashy!" can be great fun! My son loved getting the last bit
> is theirs and they want to destroy it, well...that can be a lot of
> fun!
of fun from some broken toy by smashing it to bits with a hammer or a
baseball bat. I had two rules for that game: Eye protection had to be
worn (swimming goggles would do) and the bits of plastic had to be
picked up and thrown away, lest they injure one of the dogs.
Nancy
Jenny C
> It seems there is either permissive parenting where even if you stateThis is an either/or scenario that is so prevelant in parental thinking.
> your dislike of a behvior you have no way to enforce it. It's
> comepletely up to weather the child wants to please you or not.Or the
> opposition which is authoritarian parenting,not consensual,and you
> are able to keep your authority.
>
> In the Continuum Concept the author describes that the parents do
> have a natural authority and will often command something,"get that
> bowl" and the kids will happily comply because the want to be part of
> things. If they say no, which the option is always there, there is no
> coercion at all,the parent just accepts the child's choice.What do
> they do differently that the children respect the parents natural
> authority? Our AP kids will almost always say no.
>
> It it really so wrong to desire parental authority?
It's not either/or in terms of unschooling. It's about being a partner
and acting as a team. It shouldn't be about wether the kids or the
parents have the control or authority. It's neither of those things.
It's more about doing what creates peace and happiness for all involved.
I don't people, kids included, like to feel at odds with the world and
unhappy.
I don't know why people tend to gravitate towards chaos and dysfunction.
I see it all around me. It isn't our existence at all. When goal is to
get a bowl from the kitchen, what works best is the peaceful happy route
to getting that bowl. Why insist someone get it for me if it causes
unrest in the house? When kids see a parent creating peace and
happiness and that is what they grow up knowing, that is what they will
continue to create.
If kids are hitting and behaving in uruly ways, there is clearly
something else going on within the dynamics of the relationship between
parent and child. The parents are missing some behavioral clues from
their kids that they aren't getting to in time to prevent the behavior.
I really like to prevent fires rather than put them out. When you've
gone too far and have the fire, difuse it in the best peaceful happy way
possible. You don't reason with a fire to get it to go out, you have to
physically alter it and you can do that without spanking it, which
metaphorically speaking might actually fan the flames higher, better to
get some water and disperse the embers.