lspswr

I need some advice on how to respectfully help my ds8 (2 yrs
unschooled, schooled prior) learn that respect, courtesy, and
politeness are vital life skills. Long story short, he has a
love/hate relationship with a 6.5 yr old schooled neighbor boy.
Recently my ds has been aggressive toward him, pushing and shoving
and generally "taunting" him. They're both only children and many
times we've commented that they treat each other like siblings
might. My ds seems to really enjoy the reaction he gets from the
boy, which is usually along the lines of, "You're going to get in
trouble! I'm going to tell." Ds has recently been making a big
point of arguing back and saying that he won't get in trouble and it
won't matter if he does tell. The playing usually ends there and
somebody goes home, mad, but they come around to play again the next
day.

The recent issues of arguing seem to be fueled by jealousy if the
other one has friends over, play dates, or feels left out. Today
they both had friends over. My ds and his friend were playing by
themselves outside on their scooters, and spotted the friend and dad
walking the guest home. Ds scootered after the neighbor with
harassing and taunting comments (according to all who heard - I was
not outside and didn't hear). When the boy smacked ds with a shoe
(that he was carrying), ds kicked him in the shins. The boy went
home, told the mom, the mom (who is a very reasonable person) tried
to call ds over to talk with him about it and ds ran away. Several
minutes later ds went over and rang their bell and proceeded to tell
the mom that "I'm not going to get in trouble and I never will." The
mom phoned me and explained what happened (with empathy, thank
goodness).

Having come from punitive parents I'm looking for respectful
responses. The part that bothered me the most was ds's need to go
ring the bell and "mouth off" to the mom. Ds's response was to ask
why he should treat the adult differently than the child? I don't
think it polite to treat anyone that way, but do realize that he's
said this to the boy before and I didn't "do" anything about it
except explain it wasn't cool, so *I am* treating this situation
differently. There ensued a discussion of examples of people
you "must" respect or face punishment - judges in a courtroom and
policemen. My main goal is, "What's the lesson learned?" and so far
I am not confident I have gotten the point across. My words so far
are obviously not working -- I could really use some suggestions on
how to help ds understand that "mouthing off" isn't cool and that
there is indeed a need for politeness and respect. Also, ds's play
date friend was witness to ds's behavior and is very interested in
what will "happen" to ds. Dh and I told ds that we are very
concerned and will have to think about this some more and will get
back to him about it in about 24 hours (basically long enough to ask
for help!). Since telling him that he has been picking up his
things, cleaning his room, being sweet....

Thanks,
Linda

Ren Allen

~~My ds seems to really enjoy the reaction he gets from the
boy, which is usually along the lines of, "You're going to get in
trouble! I'm going to tell." Ds has recently been making a big
point of arguing back and saying that he won't get in trouble and it
won't matter if he does tell.~~

Why would it "not matter"? Is your child getting the message that it's
ok with his parents if he's mean to others? Where are the parents
(you) when all this is going on? Because if my child showed a lack of
ability to respect other people's boundaries then I would stay VERY
present at all times or keep other people away from us until that
child could handle the social interactions without hurting others.

Had he gone from a punitive lifestyle and is now confused about
boundaries? It's not respectful to your child to let them hurt others
and cause everyone to view them as "mean". Why hasn't anyone said "no
way"?

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

lspswr

> Had he gone from a punitive lifestyle and is now confused about
> boundaries? It's not respectful to your child to let them hurt others
> and cause everyone to view them as "mean". Why hasn't anyone said "no
> way"?

Yes, there is confusion on ds's part on what "trouble" means. It used
to be big consequences of restrictions, loss of priviledges, and/or
chores. To the neighbor boy "trouble" means grounding, removal of fun
things, and the occassional spanking. I think part of ds's thought is
that he's not going to get a spanking and that's the worst "trouble" he
can think of. So by lack of "trouble" he seems to be assuming no
consequences.

> Why would it "not matter"? Is your child getting the message that
it's ok with his parents if he's mean to others?<

It DOES matter, and it's very much not okay with us if he is mean to
others. The usual way it's dealt with is to end the interaction
(somebody goes home); the consequence of being mean is that others do
not want to play with you and those kid's parents don't want you around
either. They do frequently apologize to each other (on their own) and
work things out after cooling off.

> Where are the parents (you) when all this is going on? Because if my
child showed a lack of ability to respect other people's boundaries
then I would stay VERY present at all times or keep other people away
from us until that child could handle the social interactions without
hurting others.<

The meanness issue seems to be highlighted with this one boy. When
they are playing together there is someone always there (me or the
boy's mom). There can be a lot of interrupting and redirecting with
them if they're having a difficult day. They are both pretty intense
personalities and do still need frequent help negotiating with each
other. Most of the time they really enjoy playing together and it
works well, and then they hit a snag and it can unravel really
quickly. We have discussed them not playing together for a while, but
when they do get along they have a really great time.

My main concern is that ds thinks there are no "consequences." He
doesn't seem to think that not playing together, leaving, having
friends (and their parents) not want to be around him, etc,
are "consequences." He interacts with a lot of kids in many capacities
and does have some difficulties sometimes. Things get really big for
him really fast and then he will "snap" very quickly. We really are
present and paying attention but it's often hard to catch the triggers
before they fire. When they do we leave immediately.

Thanks,
Linda

Sandra Dodd

-=-They're both only children and many
times we've commented that they treat each other like siblings
might. -=-

I misread that at first to mean "they're only (no more than just)
children."

But you mean each is an only child, I think.

-=-My ds seems to really enjoy the reaction he gets from the boy,
which is usually along the lines of, "You're going to get in trouble!
I'm going to tell." Ds has recently been making a big point of
arguing back and saying that he won't get in trouble and it won't
matter if he does tell.-=-

The play probably shouldl've ended before then.

-=-Several minutes later ds went over and rang their bell and
proceeded to tell the mom that "I'm not going to get in trouble and I
never will." -=-

This is very bad.

-=-The part that bothered me the most was ds's need to go ring the
bell and "mouth off" to the mom. --=-

If you had been really clear about how horrible it was that he said
it to the boy, would he even have thought about saying it to the mom?

-=-I didn't "do" anything about it except explain it wasn't cool, so
*I am* treating this situation differently. -=-

Is it possible (I'm guessing) that your unschooling involved a total
turn-around instead of gradual change? Did you TELL him he wasn't
going to be punished anymore or something? He seems to be using
that idea as a club, and seems (from your accounts, if I understand
them) to be taking it as a license to do whatever he wants to. Abuse
is WAY past "not cool." It's criminal.

What if your husband were doing those things--kicking the neighbor,
ringing doorbells and being threatening? And it IS a threat to say
"I'm not going to get in trouble and I never will." I would NOT be
nice if a kid said that to me, I don't care whose kid he was. What
it means is "I can do whatever I want to do and you can't stop me."
And that after he had just kicked her only child?

-=-My main goal is, "What's the lesson learned?" and so far I am not
confident I have gotten the point across. My words so far are
obviously not working -- I could really use some suggestions on how
to help ds understand that "mouthing off" isn't cool and that there
is indeed a need for politeness and respect.-=-

I wouldn't let him out to play for a few days, at all. If he asked
to go out, I'd say "I'm worried that you're not able to be nice
enough to people," and then distract him with some offer of watching
a video or having a snack. I wouldn't "punish" him, but I wouldn't
let him out.

If I had a dog that was scaring the neighbors, I wouldn't let it out.

Take him out with you to the movies maybe, and lunch, and keep him
busy and happy, but don't leave him alone with anyone else and if he
starts to notice tell him it's not safe until he can be kind and
gentle. If he were squeezing or kicking a kitten, wouldn't you
protect the kitten from him?

And if the neighbor sees that he's not able to play, that will be
proof that "something happened."

If it were my child, I would not let him be with the neighbor until
he had apologized to the neighbor and the mom. And I don't mean a
memorized, forced apology. I mean until he had actual remorse. And
if it took a week or a month or a year, I wouldn't back down.

What your son does reflects on you. And though others will say
otherwise, it reflects on unschooling. If unschooling is going to
make him mean, then don't unschool.

But I don't thing unschooling is the problem.

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Oh! I meant to say maybe use those examples with him. It could be
humorously presented. If you're out in a parking lot and see someone
doing something you'd like to do (someone with a nicer car, someone
with a nice-looking friend or husband) you could say "Oooooh.
Should I go and kick her?"

It might piss your kid off, but he would also be able in his own head
to formulate the arguments against going over and kicking someone.

We used a lot of humor here.

Long ago when I was teaching 9th graders (14/15 year olds), sometimes
there would be a fight, or more likely the muttering or talking of
fighting. A couple of times I defused angry situations with humor.
When one kid at school was furious with another, that would be a
little contagious, and his friends would get into the hope that there
would be a fight. When I caught wind of this one day, I said it was
really bad to fight at school, because they'd be suspended and their
parents would have to come to school. And I said in such a tone of
voice that it was a really great idea, not sarcastic or shaming, I
said to the kid in front of the others in the class "Hey, get your
mom to drive you over to his house and beat him up there! Then it's
not at school and you won't be suspended."

The very idea of the mom even KNOWING about it made the whole thing
seem embarrassingly silly. Everyone laughed and the tension was
broken. It worked so well that time, I used it another time.

So possibly you could do something like that. In the way of choosing
between two things, you could jokingly say "You're either going to
need to go and apologize to his mom, or go and kick her again." One
choice is STUPID.
But I wouldn't set it up so that one of his choices is "act like
nothing ever happened."

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-The usual way it's dealt with is to end the interaction
(somebody goes home);-=-

Then the other kid is punished, too, though.

-=-They do frequently apologize to each other (on their own) and work
things out after cooling off. -=-

Male humans do that pretty well. But two problems:

1) it's escalating, and he's using you, the parents, as back-up

2) he insulted the mom in the doorway of her own home. Females are
NOT in the habit of letting insult slide as males do.



-=-My main concern is that ds thinks there are no "consequences." He

doesn't seem to think that not playing together, leaving, having
friends (and their parents) not want to be around him, etc,
are "consequences."-=-

Then don't use that word. Don't use "trouble." Or redefine them both.

Have you by any chance said you love him completely no matter what he
does? I hate it when parents do that, seriously. It's buying trouble
and it's dishonest, or should be. If Marty were to rape or kill
Holly, I would NOT love him as much as I do now. (Jesus, I feel
horrible just having thought it!!) My mom was raped by her
brother. It would be nice if she had been the only one in all of
history.

So you have an only child and that image can't come to you, but if
he's short tempered, look at that.

Would he have any interest in taking a karate class? Not a street-
fighting kind of martial art, but something about control and
respect? That could help greatly. My oldest was a short-tempered,
hot-headed kid who would throw things and break them, or grab his
brother and pinch him. We dealt with that directly by helping him
learn to take deep breaths when he felt he was *starting* to get mad,
not after he was already (and quickly) furious. You should see him
now. And he was better almost immediately and increasingly, from
the time he was little. We'd remind him, "breathe."

Maybe suggest that to your son, that he IS responsible for his own
actions, and trouble won't come from you but from his own failure to
be as good a guy as he should be, as he needs to be to get along.

When he kicks, he's a kid who kicks (like a dog that bites is a
biting dog), but if he can step out of reach of others when he feels
he's about to get angry, he won't be able to hit or kick. Just a
step or two back might be the tool he needs. Breathing ALWAYS helps.

http://sandradodd.com/breathing

-=-We really are present and paying attention but it's often hard to
catch the triggers before they fire. When they do we leave
immediately. -=-

Is leaving immediately always the best plan? I've been around
families that do that. What I've seen work better is taking the kid
off and away for a walk and a talk, and the proposal of some better
behavior, or amends, or apology. Helping him see how to calm down
and reapproach the same person or group might be better than showing
him to hit fast and run away.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

> If I had a dog that was scaring the neighbors, I wouldn't let it out.
>
> Take him out with you to the movies maybe, and lunch, and keep him
> busy and happy, but don't leave him alone with anyone else and if he
> starts to notice tell him it's not safe until he can be kind and
> gentle. If he were squeezing or kicking a kitten, wouldn't you
> protect the kitten from him?
>
> And if the neighbor sees that he's not able to play, that will be
> proof that "something happened."

I agree wholeheartedly with this. There have been times that my daughter has been bossy
and not kind to children younger than her, and I see a side of her that I don't entirely love.
When that happens and we talk, if I get the sense, like with this child, that she won't "back
down" from that position, I do feel a need to protect other children from that "hardness of
heart." And just as importantly, I feel the need to protect her from herself as well. I want
to help her find her way out of the hardness and back into feeling whatever feelings put
her there in the first place. There is no working with that hard place.

I feel like it is a much, much more loving act to help her to re-find herself in these
situations than to go on as though everything is fine. I tell her that we will need to go if
she can't find kindness for everyone. I'm not talking about something false, like love for
everyone--but you can treat anyone with kindness. And I don't say it punitively--more
matter of factly. I explain that it isn't fair to the other child--and what I'm talkiing about
is boundaries. She has no right to infringe on another's boundaries--just like I'd protect
her if I see someone infringing upon hers.

I try not to be in situations with children that she doesn't like, but I can't always predict
who will be in every situtation, and it does occasionally come up.

There have been times we've left the situation, but more often than not she is able to
muster basic courtesy which may be enough. I explain that she can feel how she feels
about that person, but she must be polite and not mean, or else we can't stay. As she's
gotten older, if a situation does come up, she will often remove herself for a "time-out."
(These are self-motivated times to go collect herself.) And if there is a child there that my
daughter has had problems with in the past, I pay much more attention to what's going on
to see if their paths are going to cross.

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

-=-She has no right to infringe on another's boundaries--just like
I'd protect
her if I see someone infringing upon hers.-=-

Some things I said to Kirby when he was younger (and the other kids
too, in general, but it was rarely as pressing with the other two:

Don't breathe more than your share of the air. (That was plenty of a
reminder to Kirby not to hog the literal or figurative atmosphere,
especially when it was someone else's special day/outing/moment.)

You *might* get your way a lot, but let it be other people's idea.
(Being persuasive was okay, but being pushy wasn't.)

Do things the other kid likes at least half the time. (That's a
guideline that is kind of a trick. Really, they need to do things
the other kid likes ALL the time, but if they thought it would be
half and half, what happened was they became aware of what kinds of
things they both liked, and stopped even bothering with things they
were trying to foist on the other kid.)

You want them to be glad you came over. That one's important for
adults, too. For anyone.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

> Do things the other kid likes at least half the time. (That's a
> guideline that is kind of a trick. Really, they need to do things
> the other kid likes ALL the time, but if they thought it would be
> half and half, what happened was they became aware of what kinds of
> things they both liked, and stopped even bothering with things they
> were trying to foist on the other kid.)
>
I like this a lot! It has that intellectual feel of fairness that can help penetrate a tough
exterior and hopefully lead to more openness.

Joanna

keetry

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
>
> I wouldn't let him out to play for a few days, at all. If he
asked
> to go out, I'd say "I'm worried that you're not able to be nice
> enough to people," and then distract him with some offer of
watching
> a video or having a snack. I wouldn't "punish" him, but I
wouldn't
> let him out.

How do you make this not seem like punishment? He is being prevented
from doing something he wants because he was behaving "badly", so to
speak. Do you not consider it a punishment because the prevention is
only with playing with that one other child and he is still allowed
to do other things like below?

> Take him out with you to the movies maybe, and lunch, and keep
him
> busy and happy,

Not trying to be argumentative. :) I sincerely don't quite
understand this.

Alysia

barefootmamax4

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> ". Why hasn't anyone said "no
> way"?
>

What do you do when you say "no way", but your words are ignored? I
have had similar situations and saying "stop" does not cause the
behavior to stop. How do you stop the behavior without becoming
punitive/coercive? I am certain that my son knows that I do not approve
of the behavior. At this point I also feel that it's a frustration
level that gets pushed too far. Ideally I would be able to spot the
trigger,but what do you do when it's gone past that?
-Kelly

barefootmamax4

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> In the way of choosing
> between two things, you could jokingly say "You're either going to
> need to go and apologize to his mom, or go and kick her again." One
> choice is STUPID.
> But I wouldn't set it up so that one of his choices is "act like
> nothing ever happened."

What would you do if your kid then took you up on the offer,even
knowing that you were being sarcastic?
-Kelly

barefootmamax4

--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I wouldn't "punish" him, but I
> wouldn't
> > let him out.

I can see that keeping a child away from others when they cannot act
safe and sane is sensible, but I cannot see how this is different
from punishment/grounding. Applying the dog anaolgy the dog is in
effect being punished for his behavior. There is a definite
consequence here. A natural one would be if the other kids did not
want to play anymore because of his behavior,but is keeping him in a
natural or arbitrary consequence?

I am discussing a situation on another list where my 9 yr old acted
badly at a friend's house.He was there with his siblings and one
other friend. When he got upset he attacked his little sister. We
left right away,and the little sister started crying because she had
to leave too. It's true it is not fair that she should have to leave
when she did no wrong,especially when she was the victim. My other
son felt the same. I felt horrible that everyone including the friend
was being punished because of one kid's behavior,so I made a makeup
day with the two that acted fine and the friend,but I kept my 9yr old
home. When I mentioned this on the no more spanking list I was told
that I should not punish him for doing the best he can when
frutrated.I agree that he was doing the best he could and was
frustrated,but I also feel it was unfair for the other kids and that
I had to be prevent the situation from happening again. So, what is
right? What is fair? What is punitive?
-Kelly

lspswr

> -=-The usual way it's dealt with is to end the interaction
> (somebody goes home);-=-
>
> Then the other kid is punished, too, though.

----------

I've been curious about this - how do you remove the playmate
without "punishing" the other kid, too? They aren't usually playing
a "thing" that gets removed, they're playing with each other and then
one gets removed when there's a blow up. Examples please? Thanks!

----------

> Have you by any chance said you love him completely no matter what
he does? I hate it when parents do that, seriously. It's buying
trouble and it's dishonest, or should be.

------------

How do you convey that without it feeling like a threat?

------------

> Would he have any interest in taking a karate class? Not a street-
> fighting kind of martial art, but something about control and
> respect? That could help greatly.>

-------

We have suggested it several times but so far he's not interested in
anything that is "class-like." Part of that reason is that he
doesn't like anyone telling him what to do or "teaching" him
anything. This has been an issue since he was a baby - he was one
who didn't want to "walk" with fingers (would push you away), would
push his cart around the entire block while running but wouldn't walk
without it until he was sure he could do it unassisted, and one who
wants to do things differently than everyone else because "why would
he want to do what everyone else is doing?" I can't tell you how
many times beginning from when he was a toddler (pre-unschooling) I
have heard teachers/adults say, "I wish I could just break him!"
That's a sentiment I've felt as well, and one that led us to look for
ways to interact more respectfully with each other. It has helped
tremendously and things are much better, but we still have a long way
to go.

I do think that martial arts could be a really good thing for him
though and would love for him to find *someone, somewhere* whom he
would *want* to listen to (respect). He's very athletic and enjoys
sports, but once there's coaching or evaluations involved then he
runs into conflicts. He's an excellent skier, yet the coaches are
all frustrated with him because he just won't follow instruction or
listen in a group. If it's one-on-one he does much better, but at
some point it's very limiting. They put up with him because he's a
good athlete, but they really don't want to deal with him. (Think
Bode Miller... whose autobiography reveals a similar type of
personality. On an interesting side note, Bode was unschooled until
4th grade.) He doesn't have any "heroes" or anyone he wants to be
like - he says he only wants to be like himself, which is great, but
is frustrating to "inspire" him toward something.

------------

> Maybe suggest that to your son, that he IS responsible for his own
> actions, and trouble won't come from you but from his own failure
to be as good a guy as he should be, as he needs to be to get along.

------------

These have been my words since he was little. Even when we were
parenting traditionally we never found "his currency;" we never found
a "control button." The "control" that we've found since unschooling
has been through cooperation and working together. It goes a lot
further than the traditional ways, but there's still that "heady"
attitude of "nobody will tell me what to do or how to do it."

-------------
>
> -=-We really are present and paying attention but it's often hard
to catch the triggers before they fire. When they do we leave
> immediately. -=-
>
> Is leaving immediately always the best plan? I've been around
> families that do that. What I've seen work better is taking the kid
off and away for a walk and a talk, and the proposal of some better
> behavior, or amends, or apology. Helping him see how to calm down
> and reapproach the same person or group might be better than
showing him to hit fast and run away.

------------

Sometimes he's capable of renegotiation, but it often takes him a
couple hours before he's ready to deal with people again. As he's
getting older, and the longer we're unschooling, he's getting better
at knowing when to quit, but it can still be a real challenge.

Thanks so much for the replies!
Linda

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I wouldn't let him out to play for a few days, at all. If he
> asked
> > to go out, I'd say "I'm worried that you're not able to be nice
> > enough to people," and then distract him with some offer of
> watching
> > a video or having a snack. I wouldn't "punish" him, but I
> wouldn't
> > let him out.
>
> How do you make this not seem like punishment? He is being
prevented
> from doing something he wants because he was behaving "badly", so
to
> speak. Do you not consider it a punishment because the prevention
is
> only with playing with that one other child and he is still
allowed
> to do other things like below?
>
> > Take him out with you to the movies maybe, and lunch, and keep
> him
> > busy and happy,
>
> Not trying to be argumentative. :) I sincerely don't quite
> understand this.
>
> Alysia
>

I think this is harder when you are starting unschooling- it is a
different place between punishment and letting it all go-

unschooling is NOT about letting a child get away with bad behavior-
that is why she said- keep him busy and when he asks you talk about
what happened and how it is bad and that you know he wants to go
play but if he treats people with meaness he really needs to stay in.

it is not like a grounding either it needs to be with discussion-
about how you ought to treat people and maybe he is not ready to be
around the child or his parents if he acts like this so YOU spend
time with him so it is NOT a punishment- it is a what can we do
together kind of thing-

it could be you are nearby for a while so you can step in and give
them some tools to solve their differences- ways to handle their
disagreements without it escalating to being physical.

Julie
comment me at
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-Do you not consider it a punishment because the prevention is
only with playing with that one other child and he is still allowed
to do other things like below?-=-

It's not being grounded. It's doing different, other things until he
misses the other enough to discuss it seriously. He probably won't
miss the situation enough to change for a while, but he does need to
change.

-=-> Take him out with you to the movies maybe, and lunch, and keep
him busy and happy,

-=-Not trying to be argumentative. :) I sincerely don't quite
understand this.-=-

Every day, a child gets older. Every day, a mom can think of ways to
communicate him better.

More time spent together while more time is passing can only help.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I've been curious about this - how do you remove the playmate
without "punishing" the other kid, too?-=-

I don't. I would try to persuade and reason and distract and find
other things for them to do. If I really couldn't find a way to make
it better or one of the other kids couldn't (some of the older kids
were good mediators), then I would assure the other kid that it
wasn't his or her fault and I was really sorry, and we'd get together
again soon.

Holly has suffered too much from other families (three of them I'm
thinking of) who would use Holly as a reward, and so if they didn't
earn their time with Holly, Holly was punished too. Those moms were
using Holly as though she didn't have feelings.

It happened most recently last year, and I called the mom and
appealed to her not to cancel whatever it was, because it wasn't fair
to punish Holly. She said "That's what she gets for having a friend
who doesn't do what her mother tells her to."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~These have been my words since he was little. Even when we were
parenting traditionally we never found "his currency;" we never found
a "control button." The "control" that we've found since unschooling
has been through cooperation and working together. It goes a lot
further than the traditional ways, but there's still that "heady"
attitude of "nobody will tell me what to do or how to do it."~~


He sounds a lot like my youngest child. I think utilizing mainstream
parenting tools could be exacerbating your son's oppositional
behavior and you might be going through a major transition right now.

I can see how Jalen might do some of those things if we'd punished
him. He's been raised in an RU lifestyle and I honestly think that has
"saved" him to a large degree. We still have some pretty challenging
moments, but we can now have a more "normal" social life where I'm not
totally exhausted all the time trying to buffer him or stay away from
situations he can't handle.

We didn't have a lot of friends over for years! We didn't eat out
much, we didn't put him into situations where we knew he'd have a hard
time. THAT is what needs to be done when a child can't handle social
interactions. Give them space. Keep trusting that he will pick up new
and better tools, but he really needs a patient adult right there when
you have friends over...to keep things from getting to the boiling point.

Keep him busy with things that interest him, take him out to places he
can handle for now and make sure he knows you DO love him no matter
what.:) I disagree with Sandra on that one. I don't think you have to
say you're agreeing with behavior to say you love someone. I dislike
certain behaviors VERY much, but still love the person with all my heart.

I would try to find out why he felt so angry towards that mother,
enough to taunt her and go onto her territory to do it. What was the
motivation? He may not have words for it yet, but if you can get
inside his motivation it might help understanding of how to avoid that
in the future.


One thing I said was "I need to know that Sierra is safe" (or
whomever) when he was acting out. I didn't say "You are being mean",
it was about pointing out other people's boundaries and needs. In a
very simple form too, because he can't handle much input.


~~I can see that keeping a child away from others when they cannot act
> safe and sane is sensible, but I cannot see how this is different
> from punishment/grounding. Applying the dog anaolgy the dog is in
> effect being punished for his behavior. ~~

I think it's more about setting the child up for success. If you know
they can't handle certain situations, then keep them away from those
situations or find ways to make it work better. If we put them into
situations where they don't thrive, that isn't going to help them grow
into better tools very well.

Time is a wonderful thing that way.:)
I wouldn't even point out that I was keeping the child away from
anything, I'd just do it. If it gets asked about, I might talk about
how we can make it work for EVERYONE (stating the "I need to know
_____feels safe, how can we do that?")

My thing over the years is that everyone in our home needs to feel
safe. That's it.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

hpmarker

Hi, Sandra--

I guess "completely" and "as much" are the operative words here?
Respect has been a big topic of discussion between my 6 y/o & me
lately. He is very much into posing hypotheticals in which he does
something he knows is disrespectful and then asking me if I would
still love him. My answer is always "yes" but with a follow-up about
how distressing the act would be to the disrespected person and how
he then would have to make things right for that person as much as he
could.

What is your opinion on this? Do you think that my response, in its
logical extreme, is tacitly giving him permission to be abusive? I'm
not asking rhetorically. I really want to analyze this a little.

Thanks,

Hallie



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>

> Have you by any chance said you love him completely no matter what
he
> does? I hate it when parents do that, seriously. It's buying
trouble
> and it's dishonest, or should be. If Marty were to rape or kill
> Holly, I would NOT love him as much as I do now. (Jesus, I feel
> horrible just having thought it!!) My mom was raped by her
> brother. It would be nice if she had been the only one in all of
> history.
>

barefootmamax4

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
wrote:
> totally exhausted all the time trying to buffer him or stay away
from
> situations he can't handle.

This is how I feel right now with one of my children. I feel like I
have to keep him under my wing at all times. I have read
that "explosions are predicatble" but I haven't seen a pattern yet.
It is so tiring having to be constantly on guard for anything that
will be a potential problem and mostly things just spring up that I
never saw coming.


> Time is a wonderful thing that way.:)
> I wouldn't even point out that I was keeping the child away from
> anything, I'd just do it. If it gets asked about, I might talk about
> how we can make it work for EVERYONE (stating the "I need to know
> _____feels safe, how can we do that?")

What do you do about siblings? When they want to go out alot and the
child who is having the social blowups notices that he "can't do
anything!" What do you do when the avaoidable situations happen when
you have to take him to a place or situation that he does not cope
well?

-Kelly

Sandra Dodd

-=-From Robyn's and other people's success with
being patient and kind with explosive kids, many fewer children are
punished or shamed for having sudden outbursts of pure neediness.
And interestingly, both Pam Sorooshian and I have been accused of not
knowing anything about having such children, because our two
explosive kids learned ways to deal YEARS ago with what some families
punish or ignore or exacerbate. Those who know our kids probably
wouldn't be able to guess which in each set of three was the scary-go-
nuts kid when they were younger, because we figured out loving ways
to help them recognize and deal with the emotions. And it's a
physical thing with some people, that their emotional biochemicals
come on QUICKLY, and hard. But they can learn to deal with it
cognitively and physically, for the good of their own health and
relationships, and for the good of others around them. <g>

I'm not thinking that's true, I KNOW that's true.

This is confidence and experience.-=-



This is my writing, from a discussion on this list in February. I
thought it applied again, so soon! <bwg>



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-What do you do about siblings? When they want to go out alot and the
child who is having the social blowups notices that he "can't do
anything!" What do you do when the avaoidable situations happen when
you have to take him to a place or situation that he does not cope
well?-=-

Get someone else to take your other kids to cool places and stay with
the one who's not ready to go out, when you can.

-=-What do you do when the avaoidable situations happen when you have
to take him to a place or situation that he does not cope well?--=-

First, re-examine "have to." Be careful about when and why you choose
to declare something a "have to."

If you and he need to be somewhere, try to get someone else to keep
the other kids.

Maybe try to spend more time alone with him anyway, even if it's at
your house when the other kids are elsewhere.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-What do you do when you say "no way", but your words are ignored? -=-

Then it probably points to a lack of trust and a need for more
partnership and less us/them or me/him. That's my first guess and
could be wrong.

-=-I have had similar situations and saying "stop" does not cause the
behavior to stop. -=-

If your dog is growling at the neighbor, do you say stop, and then
give up if the dog doesn't stop?

Our dog stops if we say stop, but it's because she trusts us and
wants to be cooperative. Our neighbors cannot shush their dog no
matter how they yell and threaten and cuss him out. Huh...

If my dog doesn't listen to me, I physically get her and bring her
away from the situation. It's only happened a couple or three times,
because we have a good relationship.

-=-How do you stop the behavior without becoming punitive/coercive? -=-

First priority is to stop the behavior, if he's harming others.

Second priority is to work on finding more peaceful way to deal with
him next time.

"We're unschooling" can't be an excuse for letting kids hurt other
people. That's no good. First keep people safe.



I know there are questions in the mail I haven't answered, but
Keith's in the hot tub and I want to be too.

For anyone who's truly confused by this conversation, here are two
things that might help:



http://sandradodd.com/balance

http://sandradodd.com/rules

There's a whole world between punishing a child and abandoning all
coercion so that he thinks he can do anything without repercussions.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~What do you do when the avaoidable situations happen when
you have to take him to a place or situation that he does not cope
well?~~

I tried not to do that as much as possible. The older siblings were
really giving that way...they understood that he simply needed more of
me, more of my energy and more protection from certain activities. I
tried really hard to find ways for them to get with friends in
environments where Jalen could escape with me (parks with swings,
campouts with trails etc..) if needed.

There were many times I felt sad, because I knew they were getting
shorted. But what I learned in the long-run is that they really
wouldn't have learned anything great from seeing him NOT get his needs
met. It was obvious he needed more and for the most part, they could
let him have that.

I remember some times where they were ready to leave an activity and
he just did NOT want to get off the swings (swings were really calming
for him) and someone would complain. I simply asked "Can you give him
the gift of 10 more minutes, because he really needs this right now?"
They were usually fine with that.

It's been a juggling act, not always a graceful one for sure. But
seasons change, things get better for him and for everyone one gentle
choice at a time. I blow it sometimes. We just keep refining and
getting better as parents.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~=-I have had similar situations and saying "stop" does not cause the
behavior to stop. -=-~~

Same here.
There are a few children that are wired this way from birth it
seems.;) I would examine whether it is a trust issue or just something
that child has a challenge with.

Jalen doesn't even hear "stop" when he's wired or angry and explosive.
"Stop" has to come in the form of a big, swooping hug or removal from
the situation (as gently and with his dignity intact
preferably...which takes some delicate maneuvering in groups) or
something that is physical because he literally doesn't hear or
doesn't care to hear in that rough moment.

Sometimes it's a lot easier to get everyone else away from him in the
moment. When I say "give us space" my kids know exactly what that means.;)

As far as seeing the pattern, there isn't always one. There were
situations and behaviors I KNEW would probably trigger him...but lots
of times it seemed to come out of nowhere. It gets better.

He's seven now and we've had some big shifts in the last year. Mostly,
it's an up and down thing where the cycles keep me on my toes, but it
gets better and better overall. One good month usually leads to 3 or 4
intense months. But the "intense" months are so much better with each
cycle. That's the only pattern I've really picked up on.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], "barefootmamax4" <barefootmamax4@...>
> I can see that keeping a child away from others when they cannot act
> safe and sane is sensible, but I cannot see how this is different
> from punishment/grounding. Applying the dog anaolgy the dog is in
> effect being punished for his behavior. There is a definite
> consequence here. A natural one would be if the other kids did not
> want to play anymore because of his behavior,but is keeping him in a
> natural or arbitrary consequence?
>
It's been said before, but I wanted to say again--this way of looking at things is from an
entirely DIFFERENT PARADIGM. I used to speak and think in this way--conventional
parenting, with its focus on "consequences." It is very adversarial. If you step back and
look from the lens of partnership of course you couldn't possibly let your partner go down
in a blaze and remain in the situation. You wouldn't let your dog continue to misbehave,
because someone might get hurt, and/or he might be taken from you. You wouldn't let
your child abuse another child, because it's not safe for the other child, and it's damaging
to your child's soul.

When my husband and I are at a party and he's had a little too much to drink he gets very
chatty--not his usual m.o. I know there is a certain point that is my cue to pull him aside
and make a small comment, because he really doesn't want to rattle on and ultimately
embarrass himself. It's respectful and appreciated, and I have his best interests at heart.
I'm not thinking to myself, "I'll let him make a fool of himself, our friends won't have him
over anymore, and that'll be the consequence of his behavior." That would be mean!

I think the word "consequence" has no place in parental language. We should be talking
about respect, helping, supporting, modeling, distracting, communicating, holding, etc.
Partnership words, not adversarial words.

I was talking to a mom new to our group a few weeks ago, and we noticed her 4 y.o. son
walking around the outside edge of a trampoline. It looked potentially dangerous, so she
had a long distance conversation with him (yelled) about the "consequences" of falling. It
was his decision, and if he chose to do what she clearly thought he shouldn't do, he would
suffer the consequences. That was it--no support, no offer to hold a hand or to spot
him--just making sure he "understood the consequences" of his decision. If he had
actually fallen and gotten hurt, what would that do to the level of trust he has in his
mother to keep him safe?

Life has plenty of it's own consequences--we don't need to engineer them or wield them
like a club over our kids heads. I feel like it's my job to help my kids navigate and avoid
the foreseeable ones. I want them to be able to trust in the adults around them to be on
their side, not standing around saying, "I told you so" as they nurse their hurts and
disappointments.

Joanna

keetry

--- In [email protected], "wisdomalways5"
<wisdom1133@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@> wrote:
> >
> > > > How do you make this not seem like punishment? > >
> >
>
> unschooling is NOT about letting a child get away with bad
behavior-
> that is why she said- keep him busy and when he asks you talk
about
> what happened and how it is bad and that you know he wants to go
> play but if he treats people with meaness he really needs to stay
in.
>
> it is not like a grounding either it needs to be with discussion-
> about how you ought to treat people and maybe he is not ready to
be
> around the child or his parents if he acts like this so YOU spend
> time with him so it is NOT a punishment- it is a what can we do
> together kind of thing-


I get this but I'm not so sure a child still wouldn't see it as a
punishment. That's why I asked how you make it not *seem* like
punishment to the child.

I'll give an example that happened with us recently. My 4yo has a
7yo friend who lives in the house behind us. My 4yo says they
are "bestest" friends. Most of the time they play outside in our
adjoinging backyards but sometimes they go inside this other boy's
house. Two things happened recently that caused me to decide my son
cannot go into this other boy's house anymore.

The first was that the boy has asked repeatedly if my son can watch
very scary movies like The Hills Have Eyes or play video games like
Grand Theft Auto. I don't necessarily have anything against these
moveis and videos. However, I don't want my son being exposed to
these things at someone else's house when I'm not there to judge his
reaction, discuss things with him, etc. So, I've asked the other boy
not to watch/play those video games while my ds is there. My ds has
not expressed any desire to watch those movies or the play the video
games. It was all the other boys suggestion. He said he would not
but I later found out they "accidentally" put in a R-rated movie
that scared my ds a lot.

The second (and last straw) happened the last time my ds was over
there. He came (not upset) and at some point while telling me about
what they were doing over there said the other boy hurt him. I asked
what happened and was told the other boy purposely choked my ds with
nunchuks and my ds couldn't breathe and it hurt. I asked if the
adult there did anything. My ds said, "No. She wasn't there." I
think she was in the living room and the boys were in the bedroom
and she probably didn't know what was going on. That's when I told
my son that he could not play inside that other boy's house anymore
because I didn't think it was safe. As soon as I told my son then he
started to backtrack and say it didn't hurt him and it wasn't a big
deal and the other boy only did it for a second. The next day my son
also told me the other boy has a game he plays that is secret so my
son is not allowed to tell anyone else about it.

When my son was invited over again and I said he couldn't go, my son
was very angry with me. He cried and screamed and said I made his
friend go away. I carried my son inside and sat with him on the
couch while he cried and then we watched some TV and sat together
after he calmed down a bit. He periodically got upset all over again
and I would hold him (if he let me) and tell him again why I didn't
think it was safe. Even though to any adult that wouldn't look like
a punishment of my son in anyway (and it wasn't since he hadn't done
anything to cause the situation), he still felt like it was
punishment.

Alysia

Schuyler

Can you invite the other boy to your house? I know you said in another post that you didn't mind them meeting outside and in the inbetween spaces, but what about having the 7 year old at yours? Surely that would eliminate everybody's sense of being punished?

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

============

When my son was invited over again and I said he couldn't go, my son
was very angry with me. He cried and screamed and said I made his
friend go away. I carried my son inside and sat with him on the
couch while he cried and then we watched some TV and sat together
after he calmed down a bit. He periodically got upset all over again
and I would hold him (if he let me) and tell him again why I didn't
think it was safe. Even though to any adult that wouldn't look like
a punishment of my son in anyway (and it wasn't since he hadn't done
anything to cause the situation), he still felt like it was
punishment.

Alysia







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~These have been my words since he was little. Even when we were
> parenting traditionally we never found "his currency;" we never
found
> a "control button." The "control" that we've found since
unschooling
> has been through cooperation and working together. It goes a lot
> further than the traditional ways, but there's still that "heady"
> attitude of "nobody will tell me what to do or how to do it."~~
>
>
> He sounds a lot like my youngest child. I think utilizing
mainstream
> parenting tools could be exacerbating your son's oppositional
> behavior and you might be going through a major transition right
now.

My oldest was like this. A pediatrician once told me he had
oppositional defiance disorder. There's a disorder (and medication)
for everything these days.

>make sure he knows you DO love him no matter
> what.:) <snip> I don't think you have to
> say you're agreeing with behavior to say you love someone. I
dislike
> certain behaviors VERY much, but still love the person with all my
heart.


I agree with this, too. I think it's very important to make a
distinction between undesirable behavior and the person h**self.
Children don't always understand that the adult still likes the
child even when very upset about a behavior.

Alysia

Schuyler

If your principle is to keep your son safe it is important to keep the lines of communication open. If your son belives that telling you about dangerous play or r rated movies will result in him being not allowed to play with his bestest friend, I am guessing he'll stop talking about those things with you. And that seems really unsafe to me. I would really work to try and come up with ways that they can play together. Rather than making it bad or wrong that they accidently watched a scary R-rated movie, commiserate. Depending on the movie see if you can find some making of stuff about the movie and watch some completely removed from fear sort of moments that dissect the movie. Help him to feel strong enough in that relationship to say no if he doesn't want to watch a movie, or no to playing with nunchuks. Make coming over to your house really fun. Linnaea has a friend at whose house I'm reticent to have her spend the night. Not actually because of
tension between Linnaea and her friend, but because Linnaea and her friend's older sister have come to near blows. And I know that the parents aren't that responsive, they don't move fast for a fight. If Linnaea wanted to spend the night, I would let her, but she knows what my reservations are, and she, at this point, agrees and is fine with being the hostess to sleepovers. Her friend actually prefers to spend the night here, as well, so there isn't a conflict of desires going on and no one feels that this is a punitive action on my part.

Linnaea has been the younger friend in a few relationships and she had boundaries pushed probably more than if she had been with a child of her own age. I don't have a problem with that, but it is an aspect of having different aged friends.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

==================

The first was that the boy has asked repeatedly if my son can watch
very scary movies like The Hills Have Eyes or play video games like
Grand Theft Auto. I don't necessarily have anything against these
moveis and videos. However, I don't want my son being exposed to
these things at someone else's house when I'm not there to judge his
reaction, discuss things with him, etc. So, I've asked the other boy
not to watch/play those video games while my ds is there. My ds has
not expressed any desire to watch those movies or the play the video
games. It was all the other boys suggestion. He said he would not
but I later found out they "accidentally" put in a R-rated movie
that scared my ds a lot.

The second (and last straw) happened the last time my ds was over
there. He came (not upset) and at some point while telling me about
what they were doing over there said the other boy hurt him. I asked
what happened and was told the other boy purposely choked my ds with
nunchuks and my ds couldn't breathe and it hurt. I asked if the
adult there did anything. My ds said, "No. She wasn't there." I
think she was in the living room and the boys were in the bedroom
and she probably didn't know what was going on. That's when I told
my son that he could not play inside that other boy's house anymore
because I didn't think it was safe. As soon as I told my son then he
started to backtrack and say it didn't hurt him and it wasn't a big
deal and the other boy only did it for a second. The next day my son
also told me the other boy has a game he plays that is secret so my
son is not allowed to tell anyone else about it.

When my son was invited over again and I said he couldn't go, my son
was very angry with me. He cried and screamed and said I made his
friend go away. I carried my son inside and sat with him on the
couch while he cried and then we watched some TV and sat together
after he calmed down a bit. He periodically got upset all over again
and I would hold him (if he let me) and tell him again why I didn't
think it was safe. Even though to any adult that wouldn't look like
a punishment of my son in anyway (and it wasn't since he hadn't done
anything to cause the situation), he still felt like it was
punishment.

Alysia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]