Nancy

I just re-read How To Talk so Your Kids Will Listen, by Faber and
Mazlish. Its funny that it was just discussed on this list, because
my LLL group just organized a fundraiser where we had Ms Faber give a
seminar in Chicago. She is very funny in person. She is probably in
her mid 60s, and she has a Jewish New York accent. So, when I re-read
the book, not only was I reading it with unschooling in mind, I was
hearing her voice. lol.

Anyway, at one point. the book says that parents should never talk
about their kids in front of them. I realized that my friends and I
do this, kind of a lot, I think. We all have kids that are pretty
young, 6 and under, and we do a lot of discussing parenting and kids
and situations and stuff.

I get the point that one wouldnt do that if it was another adult. I
wouldnt talk about my husband to a friend, as if my husband wasnt
there, and he *was*. But...I am never without my kids!

I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this topic. I guess one solution
would be to cease and desist. I could seek advice or talk about
situations in email or online, only. I wonder what my friends will
think, too.

Thanks,
Nancy
Currently vacationing in florida with kids
zibby 4 and henry 6 mos.
http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net

Sandra Dodd

-=-Anyway, at one point. the book says that parents should never talk
about their kids in front of them. I realized that my friends and I
do this, kind of a lot, I think. We all have kids that are pretty
young, 6 and under, and we do a lot of discussing parenting and kids
and situations and stuff. -=-

La Leche League is based on discussing experiences and problems, and
the babies are all right there. Some moms have a baby and a toddler
there. What seems to make it fine is that all the discussions are
designed to make the kids' lives better, gentler, more nourishing
(physically and emotionally).

This is quite a rule: "parents should never talk about their kids in
front of them."

How would I speak at conferences when my children were there if I
followed that rule?

How would people have blogs when their children have learned to
read? What about Christmas letters? What about praise, or
introductions?

Maybe if we look at principles it will be different. Treating
children like we would treat friends or spouses is good. Not
treating them like helpless little kids.

I talk about my husband when he's right there sometimes, and I work
him into the conversation. (He's kinda shy.). I don't say bad
things; I say good things. I don't say smarmy good things. I tell
them what he's been working on, or what he's planning for the weekend
or something real.

Maybe by "talk about them" she's thinking criticize them?



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH

I try and make sure that if I am talking about my kids, whether they are present or not, I'm not saying things in a way I would be uncomfortable with them hearing.

Early in my marriage to David I decided that he was more important to me than the laughter I could get from friends and acquaintances by making fun of him or telling embarrassing stories about him. I extend that same respect and sense that my relationship with Simon and Linnaea is more important than sharing something personal or amusing with other people.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

=====================
Anyway, at one point. the book says that parents should never talk
about their kids in front of them. I realized that my friends and I
do this, kind of a lot, I think. We all have kids that are pretty
young, 6 and under, and we do a lot of discussing parenting and kids
and situations and stuff.

I get the point that one wouldnt do that if it was another adult. I
wouldnt talk about my husband to a friend, as if my husband wasnt
there, and he *was*. But...I am never without my kids!

I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this topic. I guess one solution
would be to cease and desist. I could seek advice or talk about
situations in email or online, only. I wonder what my friends will
think, too.
-------------------------------





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barbara Perez

I think Sandra hit the nail on the head: Don't talk *negatively* about them
(aka don't talk behind their backs). I see a lot of parents (but not usually
unschooling parents) do this a lot of the time. It happens to overwhelmed
mainstream parents when they're "venting" and maybe are just trying to
commiserate or get sympathy and support, but I end up feeling bad for the
kids there when they have to hear "how hard it is to deal with them" even if
they're supposedly not paying attention to the words, involved in something
else. In particular women who wouldn't dream of talking the same way about
their husbands to neighbors or acquaintances (such as myself) will go on
about negative things. I guess they figure another mom will understand. When
that happens, it's kind of hard to know how to react. I used to try and turn
their remarks into positive terms about the child ("Johnny sure knows what
his tastes are, eh? " when someone complained of Johnny being stubborn), or
turn the conversation to them (as in "Boy, you sure sound tired and
frustrated with life today") and sometimes offer to help by letting the
child come and play with mine, etc, but I was never sure if that was the
best thing to say/do, since it seemed a little like 'enabling' to do just
that - continue whining about the child in front of them. But essentially I
agree with Sandra that there's absolutely nothing wrong with speaking
positively and genuinely about someone in their presence, adult or child.

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-Anyway, at one point. the book says that parents should never talk
>
> about their kids in front of them. I realized that my friends and I
> do this, kind of a lot, I think. We all have kids that are pretty
> young, 6 and under, and we do a lot of discussing parenting and kids
> and situations and stuff. -=-
>
> La Leche League is based on discussing experiences and problems, and
> the babies are all right there. Some moms have a baby and a toddler
> there. What seems to make it fine is that all the discussions are
> designed to make the kids' lives better, gentler, more nourishing
> (physically and emotionally).
>
> This is quite a rule: "parents should never talk about their kids in
> front of them."
>
> How would I speak at conferences when my children were there if I
> followed that rule?
>
> How would people have blogs when their children have learned to
> read? What about Christmas letters? What about praise, or
> introductions?
>
> Maybe if we look at principles it will be different. Treating
> children like we would treat friends or spouses is good. Not
> treating them like helpless little kids.
>
> I talk about my husband when he's right there sometimes, and I work
> him into the conversation. (He's kinda shy.). I don't say bad
> things; I say good things. I don't say smarmy good things. I tell
> them what he's been working on, or what he's planning for the weekend
> or something real.
>
> Maybe by "talk about them" she's thinking criticize them?
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

halfshadow1

I am glad this discussion came up. I told my friend that my Husband
and i discuss bills,money in front of Lukas but she said she doesn't
think that's a good idea for him to hear if we have concerns,she feels
children shouldn't be burdened with that worry. I do want him to know
what things costs and how stuff is paid. Unlike my mom( i see the
pattern Sandra <g>)) She chased me out of the room when she was doing
the bills,
told me to get lost. So, i need to find the balance here too.
I know this isn't about talking about your kids but it's about talking.:p

Sandra Dodd

-=-I told my friend that my Husband
and i discuss bills,money in front of Lukas but she said she doesn't
think that's a good idea for him to hear if we have concerns,she feels
children shouldn't be burdened with that worry. I do want him to know
what things costs and how stuff is paid.-=-

Maybe think of it as sex. It's one thing to tell a little kid that
babies grow inside their moms. It's quite another thing to strip
down and show them where.



Pointing out occasionally what something costs, in terms an
individual child will care about, IF he cares, seems fun and good.
Telling him things he doesn't know or care about (compound interest
and refinancing mortgages come to mind as things I don't even care
about much) seems way too much, like a long biology and genetics
lecture to someone who asked why babies look like their parents.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>I do want him to know
> what things costs and how stuff is paid. Unlike my mom( i see the
> pattern Sandra <g>)) She chased me out of the room when she was doing
> the bills,
> told me to get lost. So, i need to find the balance here too.
> I know this isn't about talking about your kids but it's about
talking.:p


John Holt had written in some of his books that one way for kids to
learn real life application of math skills, was to involve them in
family accounts, bill paying, etc.

It doesn't need to be scary to a kid to know that there isn't a lot of
money to live on. It can be a talking point of why you can or can't
afford certain things and how you work on finding balance when spending
money. Even if you have next to nothing left over after paying bills,
money is still flexible, and choices are made about how to spend that
left over bit. Buying groceries is flexible, buying gas for your car is
flexible. It helps to know that you have enough gas to go visit such
and such, but then you may not have enough to go somewhere else.

melissa_hice

--- In [email protected], "Barbara Perez"
<barbara.perez@...> wrote:
>
> I think Sandra hit the nail on the head: Don't talk *negatively*
about them
> (aka don't talk behind their backs). I see a lot of parents (but not
usually
> unschooling parents) do this a lot of the time. It happens to
overwhelmed
> mainstream parents when they're "venting" and maybe are just trying to
> commiserate or get sympathy and support, but I end up feeling bad for
the
> kids there when they have to hear "how hard it is to deal with them"
even if
> they're supposedly not paying attention to the words, involved in
something
> else.

Today my children and I went to a scrapbooking session. The woman
sitting directly across from me began talking about her 2 year old (who
was right there next to her). She told the story of how he wouldn't do
what she wanted him to so she put him in his room for a time out for
the first time. She said he screamed and cried and she thought it was
all so funny. The other scrapbookers began laughing as well, but I
actually felt sick to my stomach. (boy, I am such a different person
since unschooling!!!) After everyone quit laughing, I quietly asked
her what he was doing that made her put him in his room. She said he
was climbing. I asked her if he had something that he could climb on
and she said he had stuff outside. I told her about my son when he was
2 loving to climb and that we borrowed one of those Little Tyke
climbing toys from a friend and put it in the living room. She
said, "Well, he was climbing on the chair to get to the computer and I
didn't want him messing with the computer." I asked if she had heard
of those keyboards that you put on top of the regular keyboard that is
made for toddlers so that he could do some toddler type games on the
computer, but she really did not want my ideas. She was hugely
enjoying all the attention her story about punishing her child was
getting her and didn't want to see another side. That makes me so sad
for that little boy.

Melissa

Sandra Dodd

-=-Today my children and I went to a scrapbooking session. The woman
sitting directly across from me began talking about her 2 year old (who
was right there next to her). She told the story of how he wouldn't do
what she wanted him to so she put him in his room for a time out for
the first time. She said he screamed and cried and she thought it was
all so funny. The other scrapbookers began laughing as well, but I
actually felt sick to my stomach. (boy, I am such a different person
since unschooling!!!) -=-



Poor kid. Soon it will stop happening, because he won't be right
there next to her. He'll be as far away as he can get. Poor family.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

My house had a very hush hush attitude about money. It wasn't to be
discussed in front of the children. How money one had was always
secret, and how much anything cost was always secret. My whole life,
I couldn't figure out why I wasn't allowed to know how much the the
new couch cost, or the computer, or the oven, or the groceries, or
anything. To me, even before unschooling, it never made much sense to
keep all that quiet all the time. Seriously, if a child wants to know
how much it cost, why can't he know???

I have a friend going through a divorce and my son (9) wanted to know
all about divorce. I was discussing it with him in front of my dad,
who immediately piped in and told me I should be telling him about
divorce. I asked him (my dad) if there was a good reason that my son
shouldn't know how or why people get divorced. He couldn't come up
with one.

Slowly... I work on my dad. <BWG>




--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I told my friend that my Husband
> and i discuss bills,money in front of Lukas but she said she doesn't
> think that's a good idea for him to hear if we have concerns,she feels
> children shouldn't be burdened with that worry. I do want him to know
> what things costs and how stuff is paid.-=-

Clarissa Fetrow

Based on the title of the book (and though I haven't read it in a few years,
I remember loving it), I wonder if the reason the authors suggest not
talking about your kids in front of them is so that the kids can grow in
their trust of mom, and not worry that she's going to embarrass them by
telling their stuff to others. When I want to tell a story about my 5yo dd,
I turn to her and say, "Is it okay with you if I tell about ...?" She
almost always says yes. But I like that asking permission piece. I like
feeling respectful of her, and I like feeling like she is building trust in
me.
I do also, privately, sometimes talk about concerns with fellow moms, that I
don't discuss with her, but the moms and I know that the topics we are
discussing are confidential, and that they (the moms) shouldn't talk about
me and my kid's stuff in front of their own kids or with others. I only do
this type of sharing with friends I trust to be confidential. And one way I
assess whether to trust those moms is if they also aren't the type of parent
who shares too much of their kids' "beeswax" with others.

Clarissa


On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Nancy <nmachaj@...> wrote:

> I just re-read How To Talk so Your Kids Will Listen, by Faber and
> Mazlish. Its funny that it was just discussed on this list, because
> my LLL group just organized a fundraiser where we had Ms Faber give a
> seminar in Chicago. She is very funny in person. She is probably in
> her mid 60s, and she has a Jewish New York accent. So, when I re-read
> the book, not only was I reading it with unschooling in mind, I was
> hearing her voice. lol.
>
> Anyway, at one point. the book says that parents should never talk
> about their kids in front of them.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> To me, even before unschooling, it never made much sense to
> keep all that quiet all the time. Seriously, if a child wants
> to know how much it cost, why can't he know???

I talked with my mom as an adult to ask about her attitudes about
money because I have similar memories from my childhood. I learned
that my mom was embarrassed most of the time because we had so
little. I can sort of understand. The problem is that the only
thing she passed on to me about finances is that credit cards are
awesome and should be used as much as the companies will let me use
them. I was thousands of dollars in debt at 18 years old. I hope
my children won't think about money in that way.

We are open about money in our home. My dd10, Allison, loves to
help me balance the checkbook and write bills. My DH earns a good
salary and I love that my children realize that even though it looks
like a lot of money up front, that we have responsibilities and
choices that take up a lot of that money. They help me keep up my
budget! :)

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I love that my children realize that even though it looks
like a lot of money up front, that we have responsibilities and
choices that take up a lot of that money. They help me keep up my
budget! :)-=-

Holly and Marty are GREAT at talking me out of buying things.

Half the time we offer to take them out to dinner, they say let's
just eat at home.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Barbara Perez

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Clarissa Fetrow <clarissafetrow@...>
wrote:

> Based on the title of the book (and though I haven't read it in a few
> years,
> I remember loving it), I wonder if the reason the authors suggest not
> talking about your kids in front of them is so that the kids can grow in
> their trust of mom, and not worry that she's going to embarrass them by
> telling their stuff to others.
>







That's an excellent point Clarissa, and one I had missed earlier. Even when
it's about positive stuff, kids might consider something private and not
necessarily want parents discussing it with certain people.

> When I want to tell a story about my 5yo dd,
> I turn to her and say, "Is it okay with you if I tell about ...?" She
> almost always says yes. But I like that asking permission piece. I like
> feeling respectful of her, and I like feeling like she is building trust
> in
> me.
>







This is also what I've done with my kids, and while most of the time they
said yes, I found that it sometimes depended on who the other person was. In
other words, they were differentiating over who the people were that they
trusted with "their" stories. The more they knew someone (like a friend's
parent, or a friend of the family that they cared about) the less likely it
would be for them to say "no" (as opposed to a casual acquaintance or a
friend of mine that they hadn't had much interaction with yet). This makes
sense to me.

And one way I
> assess whether to trust those moms is if they also aren't the type of
> parent
> who shares too much of their kids' "beeswax" with others.
>





Exactly! Love the Junie B. reference!
Barbara


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], "Jenny C" <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>

>
> It doesn't need to be scary to a kid to know that there isn't a lot of
> money to live on.

Scary is the key--if mom and dad are scared, it will be scary. Those conversations should be
private--but the management part could be family business.

Joanna

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Nancy" <nmachaj@...> wrote:
>
> I just re-read How To Talk so Your Kids Will Listen, by Faber and
> Mazlish. Its funny that it was just discussed on this list, because
> my LLL group just organized a fundraiser where we had Ms Faber give a
> seminar in Chicago. She is very funny in person. She is probably in
> her mid 60s, and she has a Jewish New York accent. So, when I re-read
> the book, not only was I reading it with unschooling in mind, I was
> hearing her voice. lol.
>
> Anyway, at one point. the book says that parents should never talk
> about their kids in front of them. I realized that my friends and I
> do this, kind of a lot, I think. We all have kids that are pretty
> young, 6 and under, and we do a lot of discussing parenting and kids
> and situations and stuff.
>
> I get the point that one wouldnt do that if it was another adult. I
> wouldnt talk about my husband to a friend, as if my husband wasnt
> there, and he *was*. But...I am never without my kids!
>
> I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this topic. I guess one solution
> would be to cease and desist. I could seek advice or talk about
> situations in email or online, only. I wonder what my friends will
> think, too.
>
> Thanks,
> Nancy
> Currently vacationing in florida with kids
> zibby 4 and henry 6 mos.
> http://happychildhood.homeschooljournal.net
>




Personally, I ignore people who tell me what I "should never" do.

I've always been perfectly fine with telling other people how
wonderful I think my children are when my children are there and can
hear me say it. I haven't had any complaints from them yet.

Bob

j md

Hello melissa,
That is sad...for that little boy and for his mum too.My eldest who is now 8 loved to climb.We caught her on top of our 4 poster bed when she was 2 1/2.She didnt get a time out ... we got rid of the bed for a more comvensional on so she wouldnt break her neck!My youngest learnt to climb quick.She got up on top of the bookcase in the hall where i kept matches....she didnt get time out....we now keep the matches in the top of my husbands wardrobe.This mum could have moved the computer....or like we do...when we are not at the computer the chair isnt there its in pour bedroom so the little one cant get hurt climbing.Then as was mentioned...if they love to climb...let them climb....take them to the park....put in a climbing gym....use your imagination.
We are not perfect.We have used time out and all that.But not now.Discovering RU and attachment parenting even later in their lifes and not from birth is changing us as people and as a family.I am so thankful for groups like this as i wouldnt have a clue sometimes but i read what others have written and i think...you know that might work here.Sometimes we slip, but we recognise it and know that it will take a while to consiously overwrite the things we have been taught as kids the things we have copied as adults.My husband says "You have to think hard before it comes out of your mouth cause once its out it wont go back in" He is right of course.I think after reading all these posts i will be much much more careful about what i say in fromt of my daughters now.
Luna

--- In AlwaysLearning@ yahoogroups. com, "Barbara Perez"
<barbara.perez@ ...> wrote:
>
> I think Sandra hit the nail on the head: Don't talk *negatively*
about them
> (aka don't talk behind their backs). I see a lot of parents (but not
usually
> unschooling parents) do this a lot of the time. It happens to
overwhelmed
> mainstream parents when they're "venting" and maybe are just trying to
> commiserate or get sympathy and support, but I end up feeling bad for
the
> kids there when they have to hear "how hard it is to deal with them"
even if
> they're supposedly not paying attention to the words, involved in
something
> else.

Today my children and I went to a scrapbooking session. The woman
sitting directly across from me began talking about her 2 year old (who
was right there next to her). She told the story of how he wouldn't do
what she wanted him to so she put him in his room for a time out for
the first time. She said he screamed and cried and she thought it was
all so funny. The other scrapbookers began laughing as well, but I
actually felt sick to my stomach. (boy, I am such a different person
since unschooling! !!) After everyone quit laughing, I quietly asked
her what he was doing that made her put him in his room. She said he
was climbing. I asked her if he had something that he could climb on
and she said he had stuff outside. I told her about my son when he was
2 loving to climb and that we borrowed one of those Little Tyke
climbing toys from a friend and put it in the living room. She
said, "Well, he was climbing on the chair to get to the computer and I
didn't want him messing with the computer." I asked if she had heard
of those keyboards that you put on top of the regular keyboard that is
made for toddlers so that he could do some toddler type games on the
computer, but she really did not want my ideas. She was hugely
enjoying all the attention her story about punishing her child was
getting her and didn't want to see another side. That makes me so sad
for that little boy.

Melissa





Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.
www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

melissa_hice

--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
> My house had a very hush hush attitude about money. It wasn't to be
> discussed in front of the children. How money one had was always
> secret, and how much anything cost was always secret. My whole life,
> I couldn't figure out why I wasn't allowed to know how much the the
> new couch cost, or the computer, or the oven, or the groceries, or
> anything.

Maybe they were afraid you would accidentally "let it slip" to your
friends or other adults how much they paid for something. Lots of
people are very private about their money -- how much they have and how
much they pay for things. Maybe they thought if someone knew how much
they paid for something, it would be considered frivolous.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe they were afraid you would accidentally "let it slip" to your
friends or other adults how much they paid for something. Lots of
people are very private about their money -- how much they have and how
much they pay for things. Maybe they thought if someone knew how much
they paid for something, it would be considered frivolous. -=-



Oh that's probably the root of the whole thing--secrecy from the
neighbors. In these days of some salaries having to be made public,
the secrecy that once was so common isn't as common at all. People
were at my house talking about bonuses a while back. One guy got a
$35,000 bonus. One got a $5,000 bonus. Kirby had a $1500 bonus. He
wasn't there and I didn't know yet, but I'm saying... then I had
something to compare it to. And as the other guys were like 37 and
43 years old, Kirby's didn't seem too bad!! <bwg> I never worked at
a job that had bonuses. But I know that *at work* they're not
supposed to talk about them because some people got bigger than others.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ed Wendell

I get the same thing at work - there are two other people I work with that complain about their husbands all the time - I never really hear about the great things their husbands do - I never say a negative word about Ed. We'll have been married 24 yrs in June. When I get male bashing emails / jokes I do not forward them out of respect to Ed because I wouldn't like it if he made fun of all women - or lumped me in with all women.

Lisa w.


Early in my marriage to David I decided that he was more important to me than the laughter I could get from friends and acquaintances by making fun of him or telling embarrassing stories about him.
._._,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-= I get the same thing at work - there are two other people I work
with that complain about their husbands all the time - I never really
hear about the great things their husbands do - I never say a
negative word about Ed. We'll have been married 24 yrs in June. When--=-

24 years! Cool.

Keith has problems at work about other people badmouthing their teens.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ed Wendell

We'll have been married 24 yrs in June. =-

24 years! Cool.

It was a close call 20 years ago (before Zac was born). But once we worked it out, it has been really great. We really never fight. I'm more of the snappy one and the other night I was exhausted and snapped at him about a totally inane thing and he called me on it in a gentle way "Hey grouchy pants, don't snap at me over that." I realized I had snapped and said "I'm sorry. I'm exhausted and didn't mean to snap." This morning I made muffins. He told me, "These are really good cashew muffins." I said, "Yes they are." He said "You're supposed to say thank you." I laughed and said "Thank You."



Keith has problems at work about other people badmouthing their teens.

Yes that too - last weekend our brother-in-law called to help us with purchasing a new computer (he is a VP at Hewlett Packard and gave us some great pointers in what to get or not get). We don't talk with him very often, but he was on the phone with me and then Ed for 2 hours before we even mentioned the computer. He asked how old Zac is and when I said 13 he was all about teens and their problems. He has a 21 yr old son and a 17 year old daughter. He made a comment about how they will be happy when they are fully grown and past this stage - which really shocked me comming from them. I commented how we were enjoying everything about Zac in this moment.

Our new computer showed up this morning - it is sitting in boxes. We have waited a year and a half for this new shinny gadget! At first we chose to wait because windows XP had just come out and we were advised to wait until the bugs were worked out of XP so to speak. Then we chose to wait due to money because we decided that we would get a better one with gaming components for Zac. This one has really gotten to Zac lately due to what it cannot do in terms of gaming - it cannot play most games, it's gotten slower, it glitches and kicks him off in the middle of games, or freezes up and he loses his game, or it freezes up and won't let us on-line at all, etc. I finally said a couple of weeks ago to ED, "Let's just get it ordered, we've put it off long enough."

So it will be interesting to get it up and going - to see what new games Zac becomes passionate about. Right now he is upstairs on an old dinosaur that does not even have internet capability.

Lisa W.
.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

--- In [email protected], "Ed Wendell" <ewendell@...> wrote:
>
>He asked how old Zac is and when I said 13 he was all about teens and their problems.
He has a 21 yr old son and a 17 year old daughter. He made a comment about how they
will be happy when they are fully grown and past this stage - which really shocked me
comming from them. I commented how we were enjoying everything about Zac in this
moment.

Our son is turning 13 in a few months, and I'm feeling so awed by the young man he is
turning into. He wants to share everything with us. My husband and I keep looking at
eachother, shaking our heads and not believing the conversations were having. Neither of
us would have EVER shared the kinds of things with our parents that he does with us.
Amazing!!! And as time goes on we are developing such a nice give and take about his
care--sometimes he wants to be in charge of more of it and sometimes he wants us to be
in charge. The friction points seem to be lessening instead of increasing--maybe because
our whole view is of him being capable. As he grows, I'm ready with the reins, handing
them over. I didn't have any sense of that as a teenager.

I just feel anticipation for him. What will his future look like, what is he going to be up to
two years from now, or three? I don't feel any sense of the dread that people all around
me feel--and many justifiably so. We have some family friends whose children were about
7 and four when my ds was born. We watched them do very conventional parenting and it
was like watching a train wreck, but not being able to stop it. Mom worked full time +,
Dad at home, but very unengaged, so even though they had a parent at home, he shut
himself away with his computer and hired a housecleaner/nanny. And they've paid the
price of disconnection with an 11 year old daughter who wanted to commit suicide, bouts
of depression, boyfriends that were trouble, etc., and a son who has just faded and
become kind of lost. And it was all foreseeable, which has been the saddest part for me.
But as long as they got reasonably good grades, they were pretty much left alone.

So I get this continual message from the family that's something like, "Just you wait--you
don't know yet." And to some extent it's true--we haven't been through it yet--but
fortunately, I get to read about it from all these awesome families on line who have been
and not only lived to tell the tale, but thoroughly enjoyed the ride! I'm so grateful to have
your stories and your shiny bright teens and young adults to prove that there really is
another way and that it's not just luck!
>
Joanna

Maisha Khalfani

I’m sorry if this seems like a really stupid/naïve question, but how do you
all vent or deal with your frustrations about your spouse/children.

I admit, I’ve been known to badmouth my husband, which I do know is part of
my own problem, but how do you deal with the negative emotions/feelings
without badmouthing them? I mean, sometimes I feel better like I’ve
released it all without having to go home and give all the crap to him.

What can/should I do instead? Clearly there are some lessons I didn’t get
growing up.



be at peace,

Maisha

<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

<http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys



“We have the need to be accepted and to be loved by others, but we cannot
accept and love ourselves. The more self-love we have, the less we will
experience self-abuse. Self-abuse comes from self-rejection, and
self-rejection comes from having an image of what it means to be perfect and
never measuring up to that ideal. Our image of perfection is the reason we
reject ourselves the way we are, and why we don't accept others the way they
are.”

~ Don Miguel Ruiz





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maisha Khalfani

LOL - I just read Sandra's post about calling things "dumb". I guess stupid
falls into that category too, huh? LOL



be at peace,

Maisha

<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

<http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys



"We have the need to be accepted and to be loved by others, but we cannot
accept and love ourselves. The more self-love we have, the less we will
experience self-abuse. Self-abuse comes from self-rejection, and
self-rejection comes from having an image of what it means to be perfect and
never measuring up to that ideal. Our image of perfection is the reason we
reject ourselves the way we are, and why we don't accept others the way they
are."

~ Don Miguel Ruiz





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

halfshadow1

There are no stupid questions. Sometimes i write a "mad,hate" list
with all the issues i have with him, I will bitch and moan and state
what i am really not liking about him. Once i photoshopped a photo of
him with horns and curse words,lol Then i rip the list up or if it's a
list of things that are bothering me i show him. Not the nasty list<g>
He's really not that bad.-We talk alot. The other day we were having a
go about him barking at Lukas and he said he can't negotiate,can't be
gentle but 5 mins latr he asked me to let him know how to do it
differently. So, he goes back and forth sometimes he says my way is
*spoiling* Lukas, that i'm too permisive but he's open to ideas...that
counts to me.-- In [email protected], "Maisha Khalfani"
<maitai373@...> wrote:
>
> I'm sorry if this seems like a really stupid/naïve question, but how
do you
> all vent or deal with your frustrations about your spouse/children.
>
> I admit, I've been known to badmouth my husband, which I do know is
part of
> my own problem, but how do you deal with the negative emotions/feelings
> without badmouthing them? I mean, sometimes I feel better like I've
> released it all without having to go home and give all the crap to him.
>
> What can/should I do instead? Clearly there are some lessons I
didn't get
> growing up.
>
>
>
> be at peace,
>
> Maisha
>
> <http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family
Adventures
>
> <http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys
>
>
>
> "We have the need to be accepted and to be loved by others, but we
cannot
> accept and love ourselves. The more self-love we have, the less we will
> experience self-abuse. Self-abuse comes from self-rejection, and
> self-rejection comes from having an image of what it means to be
perfect and
> never measuring up to that ideal. Our image of perfection is the
reason we
> reject ourselves the way we are, and why we don't accept others the
way they
> are."
>
> ~ Don Miguel Ruiz
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-LOL - I just read Sandra's post about calling things "dumb". I
guess stupid
falls into that category too, huh? LOL-=-



I used 'goofy' the other day. But seriously, one of the best first
steps a family can take toward moving a giant step toward being more
positive is to note and back off about anyone or anything they've
called "dumb" or "stupid."

It's simple but gigantic.

If things (music, ideas, jokes) are allowed the dignity of being
potentially accepted as perhaps good in someone's estimation, lights
come on all over that world.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-There are no stupid questions. -=-

There are questions that probably shouldn't have been asked, or that
if the questioner had a second thought would not have been asked.
There are irritating questions. There are questions that are
actually quizzes or traps or insults.

-=-Sometimes i write a "mad,hate" list
with all the issues i have with him, I will bitch and moan and state
what i am really not liking about him. Once i photoshopped a photo of
him with horns and curse words,lol Then i rip the list up or if it's a
list of things that are bothering me i show him. -=-

None of that seems safe or loving or productive to me.

The same way it can help to think that you only get to say "no" some
limited number of times (say 300, for the moment) and after that it
won't work anymore... would you say "no" about so many puny pissy
little things?

And honestly, after some number of no's they DO stop working.



With husbands, maybe think that you can only use as many direct
insulting criticisms as you can count on two hands. SAVE THEM. And
you might not ever use them all. Some things can't be unsaid, and if
you have anything in your head that someone said to you that stung
and you remember, that's reason enough to tread very carefully in the
area of sending a message that will hurt for years.

Go for a walk, pull weeds, wash the dog, rearrange the bottom
cabinets, wash the car, watch a happy, familiar movie. Don't tell
your husband what's bothering you if it's not something he can
change, and especially not if you wouldn't want a counter list of
what you do that bothers him.

On this matter right now I'm speaking with the authority of my
upcoming 24th wedding anniversary (tomorrow). The expression of
resentment or frustration or anger isn't the way to get lots of
anniversaries!

If you're nicer to your husband, he'll probably be nicer to you. It
works with kids and husbands and neighbors and all kinds of people.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ed Wendell

On this matter right now I'm speaking with the authority of my
upcoming 24th wedding anniversary (tomorrow). The expression of
resentment or frustration or anger isn't the way to get lots of
anniversaries!

If you're nicer to your husband, he'll probably be nicer to you. It
works with kids and husbands and neighbors and all kinds of people.

Sandra



I really have to agree with Saundra. We too are approaching our 24th anniversary in June and playing nice does seem to work really well. Today I am paying bills, dong paper work for work, etc. He was in the kitchen so I asked Ed if he would heat me up a piece of pizza - he asked how long I microwave mine - I said I cut mine into pieces first - he jokingly said something about my being so specific and more work for him - then later I asked him to do something for me and he gave me that look and I laughingly quipped "Hey didn't you know that it is Princess Mom day?" - he started laughing. He did it all, because I do for him all the time too. Even without him having to ask - though asking is fine too. I really enjoy when he does something without my having to ask. AND I really like to do things for him without him asking - simple things like make tea before I go to work if I notice the jar is low - as I know he really likes his tea. He goes to bed knowing the jar is empty and when he gets up it is full. He's never asked me to do this I just do it because it makes me happy to make him happy. One day I forgot something to take to work - I didn't ask him but he saw it and brought it to me.

Lisa W.








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-We too are approaching our 24th anniversary in June and playing
nice does seem to work really we-=-

Keith isn't feeling well today. I did one load of laundry with
bleach, and his white socks and underwear were in it. I took the
whole load to our bed to fold, where he's sitting watching Enchanted.

Sometimes I just put his clean laundry down for him to fold and put
up. Sometimes I fold it and leave it on the bed for him to put away
because he's really picky about the way the underwear and socks go
into the drawers.

But today, because he doesn't feel good, I put it all away as close
to the way he likes it as I could.

If I had a rule about laundry, about whose job what part was, it
would be worse than it being a new decision every time, and based on
the realities and conditions of the day and of the moment.

Sometimes I have lots of time. Sometimes I have no energy and I need
to go to bed myself.

Families with rules have a lot to fight about. Couples with a lot of
rules have a lot to fight about.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]