about tantrums, mindfulness and strength
Sandra Dodd
Here are a couple of things from a year or more back, one by Joyce
and one by me. They might be easier to read with the format here:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/help
Both touch on current issues on the AlwaysLearning list.
Sandra
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joyce Fetteroll's responses to a new reader's complaints:
-=-What IS the problem, is that I don't know what to replace
Traditional Methods with. I wanted some suggestions.-=-
Actually people *are* giving you suggestions! They are showing you
how the principles of mindful parenting look when put in action.
Conventional parenting focuses on what children are doing. So you're
expecting answers in the vein "When children do x, then do y."
Mindful parenting looks for the why and then often the answer is "I
wasn't mindful enough. I needed to be there *before* it got to this
point."
Distraction is a good thing when they're headed in a melt down
direction.
Being mindful so their needs can be met before they get to melt down
is even better.
Avoiding situations that they've shown you that they aren't ready to
handle yet is really really helpful to them and to you.
Tantrums aren't ordinary. They're "MY GOD WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO
ME!!!!" They are the breaking point.
Though, if a child has learned with time that their more subtle
signals are useless and tantrums get attention, then tantrums can
become their first line of communication. And some kids are more
easily frustrated by their inability to communicate and their
powerlessness that tantrums are more common.
Life *is* frustrating. Being mindful won't prevent kids from getting
frustrated but it will be a huge step in the right direction. Seeing
the world from kids' point of view will help you understand why they
are reacting to the world as they are. Treat your kids as though
they're doing the best they can with the knowledge and skills and
understanding of the world they have.And often when they're at their
worst, what works best is a hug.
-=-I used to give them a time out (with explanation), then talk about
what the behavior mistake was, ask for an apology (or request that
they give their sister one), and then a hug & forgive & forget.-=-
They're too young for you to expect that to work. Kids do need
information but we can't depend on them understanding and then
changing their behavior. So the answer is to prevent as much as you
can by avoiding those situations, jumping in sooner, whisking them
away to do something else. They won't be three forever! Their
understanding and needs will grow and change as they get older.
Conventional parenting is not about being present with kids. It's
about giving kids rules as a replacement for being there. Same can go
for information. Information shouldn't be a substitute for being
there and being aware. We should let kids know that cars can hurt
them, which is why we steer them clear of the street. But we
shouldn't then depend on kids understanding. We need to be there. We
need to be aware of our child's tendencies to run to the street when
in that type of situation. We need to avoid as much as we can places
where they can run into the street until they can understand.
Joyce
Importance of Definitions
So I was watering my yard with my thumb over the end of the hose,
playing with the water, and seeing the sun reflect off various drops,
where it came through the trees, and this topic (old as much of it
is) flooded in. I had a new idea.
Some people define unschooling as a relationship (or lack of one)
with school.
Others define it as a relationship (or potential damage to a
relationship) with their children.
It seems our detractors say "If my kids aren't in school and I'm not
using a curriculum, I'm unschooling."
It seems to me that stopping there will lead to frustration and
failure and the continuous little additions of rules and lessons and
requirements.
It's enough if one is looking toward school and wants to declare the
kids are out AND they're not going to use a curriculum. So at that
point in the sort (if we were writing a computer program), they've
passed through
School? if no, then homeschooling
Curriculum? if no, then unschooling
But will that last years? It's the label of a moment. "Now what?"
It's not a computer program. For me it's about natural human
learning, not about not-school and not-curriculum.
For a short while I had a column in a homeschooling newsletter/
magazine in California. I was dumped for writing the "unschooling
choice" article http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice because it didn't
match the organization's strong anti-school stance.
So maybe the regular radicals are more often answering the deeper
questions. Not "what is unschooling?" but "how can it work best and
how can it be maintained for years and lead to these transformations
of which people write?"
My husband is out making a cinderblock wall. Maybe I should be out
helping. But knowing the definition of masonry won't get that wall
built nor help it be solid. The more he knows, the more he can draw
on his experience, stories of others' successes and failures, ideas
from books, and the more choices he considers and makes as he
proceeds, the better that wall will be, and the longer it will last.
Buying blocks and a sack of cement isn't building a wall.
We're helping people with unschooling that will last and be strong.
Sandra Dodd
unschooling.info/forum is where that first appeared.
and one by me. They might be easier to read with the format here:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/help
Both touch on current issues on the AlwaysLearning list.
Sandra
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joyce Fetteroll's responses to a new reader's complaints:
-=-What IS the problem, is that I don't know what to replace
Traditional Methods with. I wanted some suggestions.-=-
Actually people *are* giving you suggestions! They are showing you
how the principles of mindful parenting look when put in action.
Conventional parenting focuses on what children are doing. So you're
expecting answers in the vein "When children do x, then do y."
Mindful parenting looks for the why and then often the answer is "I
wasn't mindful enough. I needed to be there *before* it got to this
point."
Distraction is a good thing when they're headed in a melt down
direction.
Being mindful so their needs can be met before they get to melt down
is even better.
Avoiding situations that they've shown you that they aren't ready to
handle yet is really really helpful to them and to you.
Tantrums aren't ordinary. They're "MY GOD WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO
ME!!!!" They are the breaking point.
Though, if a child has learned with time that their more subtle
signals are useless and tantrums get attention, then tantrums can
become their first line of communication. And some kids are more
easily frustrated by their inability to communicate and their
powerlessness that tantrums are more common.
Life *is* frustrating. Being mindful won't prevent kids from getting
frustrated but it will be a huge step in the right direction. Seeing
the world from kids' point of view will help you understand why they
are reacting to the world as they are. Treat your kids as though
they're doing the best they can with the knowledge and skills and
understanding of the world they have.And often when they're at their
worst, what works best is a hug.
-=-I used to give them a time out (with explanation), then talk about
what the behavior mistake was, ask for an apology (or request that
they give their sister one), and then a hug & forgive & forget.-=-
They're too young for you to expect that to work. Kids do need
information but we can't depend on them understanding and then
changing their behavior. So the answer is to prevent as much as you
can by avoiding those situations, jumping in sooner, whisking them
away to do something else. They won't be three forever! Their
understanding and needs will grow and change as they get older.
Conventional parenting is not about being present with kids. It's
about giving kids rules as a replacement for being there. Same can go
for information. Information shouldn't be a substitute for being
there and being aware. We should let kids know that cars can hurt
them, which is why we steer them clear of the street. But we
shouldn't then depend on kids understanding. We need to be there. We
need to be aware of our child's tendencies to run to the street when
in that type of situation. We need to avoid as much as we can places
where they can run into the street until they can understand.
Joyce
Importance of Definitions
So I was watering my yard with my thumb over the end of the hose,
playing with the water, and seeing the sun reflect off various drops,
where it came through the trees, and this topic (old as much of it
is) flooded in. I had a new idea.
Some people define unschooling as a relationship (or lack of one)
with school.
Others define it as a relationship (or potential damage to a
relationship) with their children.
It seems our detractors say "If my kids aren't in school and I'm not
using a curriculum, I'm unschooling."
It seems to me that stopping there will lead to frustration and
failure and the continuous little additions of rules and lessons and
requirements.
It's enough if one is looking toward school and wants to declare the
kids are out AND they're not going to use a curriculum. So at that
point in the sort (if we were writing a computer program), they've
passed through
School? if no, then homeschooling
Curriculum? if no, then unschooling
But will that last years? It's the label of a moment. "Now what?"
It's not a computer program. For me it's about natural human
learning, not about not-school and not-curriculum.
For a short while I had a column in a homeschooling newsletter/
magazine in California. I was dumped for writing the "unschooling
choice" article http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice because it didn't
match the organization's strong anti-school stance.
So maybe the regular radicals are more often answering the deeper
questions. Not "what is unschooling?" but "how can it work best and
how can it be maintained for years and lead to these transformations
of which people write?"
My husband is out making a cinderblock wall. Maybe I should be out
helping. But knowing the definition of masonry won't get that wall
built nor help it be solid. The more he knows, the more he can draw
on his experience, stories of others' successes and failures, ideas
from books, and the more choices he considers and makes as he
proceeds, the better that wall will be, and the longer it will last.
Buying blocks and a sack of cement isn't building a wall.
We're helping people with unschooling that will last and be strong.
Sandra Dodd
unschooling.info/forum is where that first appeared.
Tia Graham
Unfortunately, those who can not apply this same mindful respect to
fellow adults can not be taken as credible advisers in how to deal with
children. That is simply too inconsistent to be trusted. If one is
authoritarian in one context, but preaching a message of mindful respect
in others, and that person can not practice what they preach, chances
are they are a control-freak who has told themselves beating up on other
adults is acceptable.
Sandra Dodd wrote:
fellow adults can not be taken as credible advisers in how to deal with
children. That is simply too inconsistent to be trusted. If one is
authoritarian in one context, but preaching a message of mindful respect
in others, and that person can not practice what they preach, chances
are they are a control-freak who has told themselves beating up on other
adults is acceptable.
Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> Here are a couple of things from a year or more back, one by Joyce
> and one by me. They might be easier to read with the format here:
> http://sandradodd.com/lists/help <http://sandradodd.com/lists/help>
>
> Both touch on current issues on the AlwaysLearning list.
>
> Sandra
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Joyce Fetteroll's responses to a new reader's complaints:
>
> -=-What IS the problem, is that I don't know what to replace
> Traditional Methods with. I wanted some suggestions.-=-
>
> Actually people *are* giving you suggestions! They are showing you
> how the principles of mindful parenting look when put in action.
>
> Conventional parenting focuses on what children are doing. So you're
> expecting answers in the vein "When children do x, then do y."
>
> Mindful parenting looks for the why and then often the answer is "I
> wasn't mindful enough. I needed to be there *before* it got to this
> point."
>
> Distraction is a good thing when they're headed in a melt down
> direction.
>
> Being mindful so their needs can be met before they get to melt down
> is even better.
>
> Avoiding situations that they've shown you that they aren't ready to
> handle yet is really really helpful to them and to you.
>
> Tantrums aren't ordinary. They're "MY GOD WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO
> ME!!!!" They are the breaking point.
>
> Though, if a child has learned with time that their more subtle
> signals are useless and tantrums get attention, then tantrums can
> become their first line of communication. And some kids are more
> easily frustrated by their inability to communicate and their
> powerlessness that tantrums are more common.
>
> Life *is* frustrating. Being mindful won't prevent kids from getting
> frustrated but it will be a huge step in the right direction. Seeing
> the world from kids' point of view will help you understand why they
> are reacting to the world as they are. Treat your kids as though
> they're doing the best they can with the knowledge and skills and
> understanding of the world they have.And often when they're at their
> worst, what works best is a hug.
>
> -=-I used to give them a time out (with explanation), then talk about
> what the behavior mistake was, ask for an apology (or request that
> they give their sister one), and then a hug & forgive & forget.-=-
>
> They're too young for you to expect that to work. Kids do need
> information but we can't depend on them understanding and then
> changing their behavior. So the answer is to prevent as much as you
> can by avoiding those situations, jumping in sooner, whisking them
> away to do something else. They won't be three forever! Their
> understanding and needs will grow and change as they get older.
>
> Conventional parenting is not about being present with kids. It's
> about giving kids rules as a replacement for being there. Same can go
> for information. Information shouldn't be a substitute for being
> there and being aware. We should let kids know that cars can hurt
> them, which is why we steer them clear of the street. But we
> shouldn't then depend on kids understanding. We need to be there. We
> need to be aware of our child's tendencies to run to the street when
> in that type of situation. We need to avoid as much as we can places
> where they can run into the street until they can understand.
>
> Joyce
>
> Importance of Definitions
>
> So I was watering my yard with my thumb over the end of the hose,
> playing with the water, and seeing the sun reflect off various drops,
> where it came through the trees, and this topic (old as much of it
> is) flooded in. I had a new idea.
>
> Some people define unschooling as a relationship (or lack of one)
> with school.
>
> Others define it as a relationship (or potential damage to a
> relationship) with their children.
>
> It seems our detractors say "If my kids aren't in school and I'm not
> using a curriculum, I'm unschooling."
>
> It seems to me that stopping there will lead to frustration and
> failure and the continuous little additions of rules and lessons and
> requirements.
>
> It's enough if one is looking toward school and wants to declare the
> kids are out AND they're not going to use a curriculum. So at that
> point in the sort (if we were writing a computer program), they've
> passed through
> School? if no, then homeschooling
> Curriculum? if no, then unschooling
>
> But will that last years? It's the label of a moment. "Now what?"
>
> It's not a computer program. For me it's about natural human
> learning, not about not-school and not-curriculum.
>
> For a short while I had a column in a homeschooling newsletter/
> magazine in California. I was dumped for writing the "unschooling
> choice" article http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
> <http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice> because it didn't
> match the organization's strong anti-school stance.
>
> So maybe the regular radicals are more often answering the deeper
> questions. Not "what is unschooling?" but "how can it work best and
> how can it be maintained for years and lead to these transformations
> of which people write?"
>
> My husband is out making a cinderblock wall. Maybe I should be out
> helping. But knowing the definition of masonry won't get that wall
> built nor help it be solid. The more he knows, the more he can draw
> on his experience, stories of others' successes and failures, ideas
> from books, and the more choices he considers and makes as he
> proceeds, the better that wall will be, and the longer it will last.
>
> Buying blocks and a sack of cement isn't building a wall.
>
> We're helping people with unschooling that will last and be strong.
>
> Sandra Dodd
> unschooling.info/forum is where that first appeared.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/829 - Release Date: 6/2/2007 5:26 PM
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Unfortunately, those who can not apply this same mindful respect to
fellow adults can not be taken as credible advisers in how to deal with
children. That is simply too inconsistent to be trusted.-=-
There are hundreds of people on this list, many of whom choose not to
post, some of whom only come to read at the yahoo site once in a
while, but it's not a small list.
No one is doing one-on-one counselling for money here, it's a
discussion. No one needs to be "credible" or "trusted," and yet
there are people here I have met in real life (after having
corresponded with them online, in the AOL forum when that was the
busiest place, on other lists and message boards). I read their
words, I liked their ideas, I have met them at conferences, or
they've been to my house or I've been to theirs. There are people
here who know my kids in person.
What counts is that my kids are happy and at peace and trustworthy
and interesting. I know some of the factors that helped them be that
way, and have freely shared those ideas and experiences, and will
continue to do so, even though occasionally some people get insulting
and try to get me to stop.
-=-If one is authoritarian in one context, but preaching a message
of mindful respect
in others, and that person can not practice what they preach, chances
are they are a control-freak who has told themselves beating up on other
adults is acceptable.-=-
"Beating up"?
The list is mine. Anyone can create a yahoolist. It takes just a
few minutes.
The list has a purpose, which I maintain and defend.
Let's think about "authoritarian." It's a kneejerk insult word, easy
to throw out. Is it "authoritarian" for me to care about what
happens in my house? A dad was here once who threatened to spank his
daughter, in my house, and I said no you won't, not in my house.
That was authoritarian. It was also for the benefit of the
daughter, nor for the dad. Was I not "mindfully respectful" of the
dad? I was not. I was mindfully respectful of his child and my own
three. I was defending and maintaining the peace of my home.
When I suggest that a mom needs to pay more attention to what her
kids want, and the mom starts whining about me not respecting her,
that's a problem in the mom, and will be a problem for the child.
But it's not a problem for MY kids, because I have for years (nearly
21 years) worked to find ever better ways to be with them
peacefully and gently and openly, and have seen other families do it
and seen their relationships be good, and have seen families come
nearer to these practices and seen their family relations improve.
I'm confident, and have experience with others saying "I thought you
were crazy at first, but when I did those things, our family got
better."
There are people who know my kids, and if I were hypocritical there
would probably only be fourteen people on this list instead of 1400.
"Control freak..."
That's because I put a couple of irate posters on moderation, on a
list I'm responsible for keeping productive and peaceful?
What would be the opposite of control freak, then? I don't see it as
freakish or controlling to make suggestions that might help moms who
voluntarily came and asked for suggestions. No one "had to" come
here. No court is ordering any mom to take part in any unschooling
discussions. No one has to "attend" unschooling classes to be
certified. It's all choice. There are other unschooling lists.
Lots of them.
I don't see it as freakish or controlling for me to ask people to
chill or to put someone on moderation for writing "kiss my ass."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fellow adults can not be taken as credible advisers in how to deal with
children. That is simply too inconsistent to be trusted.-=-
There are hundreds of people on this list, many of whom choose not to
post, some of whom only come to read at the yahoo site once in a
while, but it's not a small list.
No one is doing one-on-one counselling for money here, it's a
discussion. No one needs to be "credible" or "trusted," and yet
there are people here I have met in real life (after having
corresponded with them online, in the AOL forum when that was the
busiest place, on other lists and message boards). I read their
words, I liked their ideas, I have met them at conferences, or
they've been to my house or I've been to theirs. There are people
here who know my kids in person.
What counts is that my kids are happy and at peace and trustworthy
and interesting. I know some of the factors that helped them be that
way, and have freely shared those ideas and experiences, and will
continue to do so, even though occasionally some people get insulting
and try to get me to stop.
-=-If one is authoritarian in one context, but preaching a message
of mindful respect
in others, and that person can not practice what they preach, chances
are they are a control-freak who has told themselves beating up on other
adults is acceptable.-=-
"Beating up"?
The list is mine. Anyone can create a yahoolist. It takes just a
few minutes.
The list has a purpose, which I maintain and defend.
Let's think about "authoritarian." It's a kneejerk insult word, easy
to throw out. Is it "authoritarian" for me to care about what
happens in my house? A dad was here once who threatened to spank his
daughter, in my house, and I said no you won't, not in my house.
That was authoritarian. It was also for the benefit of the
daughter, nor for the dad. Was I not "mindfully respectful" of the
dad? I was not. I was mindfully respectful of his child and my own
three. I was defending and maintaining the peace of my home.
When I suggest that a mom needs to pay more attention to what her
kids want, and the mom starts whining about me not respecting her,
that's a problem in the mom, and will be a problem for the child.
But it's not a problem for MY kids, because I have for years (nearly
21 years) worked to find ever better ways to be with them
peacefully and gently and openly, and have seen other families do it
and seen their relationships be good, and have seen families come
nearer to these practices and seen their family relations improve.
I'm confident, and have experience with others saying "I thought you
were crazy at first, but when I did those things, our family got
better."
There are people who know my kids, and if I were hypocritical there
would probably only be fourteen people on this list instead of 1400.
"Control freak..."
That's because I put a couple of irate posters on moderation, on a
list I'm responsible for keeping productive and peaceful?
What would be the opposite of control freak, then? I don't see it as
freakish or controlling to make suggestions that might help moms who
voluntarily came and asked for suggestions. No one "had to" come
here. No court is ordering any mom to take part in any unschooling
discussions. No one has to "attend" unschooling classes to be
certified. It's all choice. There are other unschooling lists.
Lots of them.
I don't see it as freakish or controlling for me to ask people to
chill or to put someone on moderation for writing "kiss my ass."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]