halfshadow1

I need help with my 5yo. son. Whenever he doesn't hear the answer he
wants or a situation happens that is beyond my or my husbands control,
he screams and runs off. I want to help him and our family because it
is very stressful to all of us. I make as much as i can userfriendly.
I will write some examples;Kuas is riding his 4x4 and gets stuck in
sand, as soon as that happens he cries out: Oooh,it's stuck! and runs
off screaming and crying. It happens too fast for me to help him. I
tell him that i am here for him, maybe instead of running off
screaming he could ask for my him to unstick it.
He asks for cheese puffs(he has them most of the time) when we run
out, Daddy says he will buy them whem he goes to the store or we tell
him we don't have the money today but will get them as soon as we can.
This answer sets him off again and he screams : NO! I want them NOW! I
tell him i understand he wants them and i'm sorry but he has to
wait.He screams and runs off crying. He will come back and ask;How
about in a minute? I repeat the above and he screams more. Then my
husband will say to me"just tell him we'll get them in a minute,pacify
him"
We do that and he calms down.
I get the feeling that not the right thing to tell him right? The
above as examples of the many upsets that happen some days it's most
of the day. My husband has said the stress is going to kill him.
When we try to eat, Lukas wants a book read or he wants to watch
cartoons when dh is watching a show and dh will put them on just to
"shut him up" Stop him from throwing a fit.
We meet his wants and needs as much as we can.
We buy and have what he likes in the house but sometimes he will have
a want,suddendly for something that's not here(chesepuffs) and we
didn't know he wanted. I try to look ahead and plan.
What do i do better to stop the screaming? thanks!

Melody Flurry

I really sympathize with what you are going through, because I have had similar issues with my 4 year old daughter. Maybe I'm too harsh, but I don't allow my children to impose their will over other members of the family. We all have to learn to live together, and of course sometimes nerves get frayed, but part of the learning and growing experience includes respect for other people. It could be that your son is frustrated because he needs to be engaged in an activity that stimulates his curiosity, or he may be frustrated because he needs more boundaries. You might say something like "we don't have any of that right now, but we do have this" and offer an alternative and then suggest some fun activity that you could do together. If that doesn't work you might try sending him to his room until he stops screaming with the understanding that he is free to come and join you at any time as long as the screaming stops. When your husband wants to watch T.V. let him know that
this is Daddy's time to watch T.V. and take him out of the room if he screams. He needs to understand that there are many hours during the day for him to watch what he wants, but Dad needs time also and this is showing respect for others.

I hope that helps, but I understand that many different approaches could be tried until the right one does the trick. Another idea that came to me is to keep a record of what he eats and see if you notice a change in behavior when certain foods are consumed. I don't know much about food allergies or if that might play a role in his behavior, but it's worth investigation.

Hang in there!
Melody :-)


halfshadow1 <halfshadow1@...> wrote:
I need help with my 5yo. son. Whenever he doesn't hear the answer he
wants or a situation happens that is beyond my or my husbands control,
he screams and runs off. I want to help him and our family because it
is very stressful to all of us. I make as much as i can userfriendly.
I will write some examples;Kuas is riding his 4x4 and gets stuck in
sand, as soon as that happens he cries out: Oooh,it's stuck! and runs
off screaming and crying. It happens too fast for me to help him. I
tell him that i am here for him, maybe instead of running off
screaming he could ask for my him to unstick it.
He asks for cheese puffs(he has them most of the time) when we run
out, Daddy says he will buy them whem he goes to the store or we tell
him we don't have the money today but will get them as soon as we can.
This answer sets him off again and he screams : NO! I want them NOW! I
tell him i understand he wants them and i'm sorry but he has to
wait.He screams and runs off crying. He will come back and ask;How
about in a minute? I repeat the above and he screams more. Then my
husband will say to me"just tell him we'll get them in a minute,pacify
him"
We do that and he calms down.
I get the feeling that not the right thing to tell him right? The
above as examples of the many upsets that happen some days it's most
of the day. My husband has said the stress is going to kill him.
When we try to eat, Lukas wants a book read or he wants to watch
cartoons when dh is watching a show and dh will put them on just to
"shut him up" Stop him from throwing a fit.
We meet his wants and needs as much as we can.
We buy and have what he likes in the house but sometimes he will have
a want,suddendly for something that's not here(chesepuffs) and we
didn't know he wanted. I try to look ahead and plan.
What do i do better to stop the screaming? thanks!





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Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<< > What do i do better to stop the screaming? >>>>>

One of the things that has helped me be more compassionate, kinder and more
able to help Jayn is to let go of having this as a goal. He might be hearing
you telling him that he has to "stop screaming" as the the same as, "you
have to stop feeling angry".

If you can think of it in terms of facilitating your son's need to express
and release safely, instead of looking at that as something that has to be
stopped it might help you.

The question that I prefer to ask myself is "How can I show Jayn my love
even when she is being hard to cope with?"

By wanting to stop the screaming what you are really telling your son is
that his feelings are not valid, that he is not loveable when he is upset or
angry, that his priorities and frustrations are not real or important.
Children's feelings and priorities are equally as important to them as
adults' feelings are to them.

I would suggest that you empathize with his feelings more and do less to
shut them off. Something to look at is the idea that frustrations continue
to build - without the "safety valve" of letting off steam by crying over
the small things, they can build up so that the next small frustration
becomes a trigger for an explosion. It seems to the parents like an
over-reaction, but what it really it is the accumulation of many small
moments of being quashed coming out.

What safe place can you take your son to, safe for son and less intrusive
for the other family members, and stay with him rather than banish him,
while he releases his tension through crying and screaming? What words can
you use to empathize and validate his feelings?

Some useful sources of information are "Raising Our Children, Raising
Ourselves" by Naomi Aldort, "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene(?) and some
of Aletha Solther's writings.

It may help you to think of it as if his cup is so full of frustration that
the least little drop causes it to overflow. He may need some good, long,
supported crying and screaming sessions to release the stress to let the cup
empty, before he is ready to hear about his own behavior.

Just because we adults don't see the events in our children's lives as
stressful, doesn't mean the child may not be feeling stressed about things.
What you may consider appropriate boundaries may be being felt by him as
intolerably restrictive and counter to his way of being.

Good luck.

Robyn L. Coburn

halfshadow1

I have just finished Ross greene's book but the situations didn't seem
to apply to how/why Lukas explodes and i felt the book didn't offer
enough solutions. I really do validate Lukas' feelings, I say things
like: your upset because the 4x4 is stuck or Your sad. I like your
idea about taking him somewhere when he *explodes* I don't know how i
can though because it's so sudden and we live in a small house(619
square feet) So, everything is heard. Plus, when he gets that upset,
he runsinto the bathroom and doesn't want anyone to bother him.--- In
[email protected], "Robyn L. Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
>
> <<<<< > What do i do better to stop the screaming? >>>>>
>
> One of the things that has helped me be more compassionate, kinder
and more
> able to help Jayn is to let go of having this as a goal. He might be
hearing
> you telling him that he has to "stop screaming" as the the same as,
"you
> have to stop feeling angry".
>
> If you can think of it in terms of facilitating your son's need to
express
> and release safely, instead of looking at that as something that has
to be
> stopped it might help you.
>
> The question that I prefer to ask myself is "How can I show Jayn my
love
> even when she is being hard to cope with?"
>
> By wanting to stop the screaming what you are really telling your
son is
> that his feelings are not valid, that he is not loveable when he is
upset or
> angry, that his priorities and frustrations are not real or important.
> Children's feelings and priorities are equally as important to them as
> adults' feelings are to them.
>
> I would suggest that you empathize with his feelings more and do
less to
> shut them off. Something to look at is the idea that frustrations
continue
> to build - without the "safety valve" of letting off steam by crying
over
> the small things, they can build up so that the next small frustration
> becomes a trigger for an explosion. It seems to the parents like an
> over-reaction, but what it really it is the accumulation of many small
> moments of being quashed coming out.
>
> What safe place can you take your son to, safe for son and less
intrusive
> for the other family members, and stay with him rather than banish him,
> while he releases his tension through crying and screaming? What
words can
> you use to empathize and validate his feelings?
>
> Some useful sources of information are "Raising Our Children, Raising
> Ourselves" by Naomi Aldort, "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene(?)
and some
> of Aletha Solther's writings.
>
> It may help you to think of it as if his cup is so full of
frustration that
> the least little drop causes it to overflow. He may need some good,
long,
> supported crying and screaming sessions to release the stress to let
the cup
> empty, before he is ready to hear about his own behavior.
>
> Just because we adults don't see the events in our children's lives as
> stressful, doesn't mean the child may not be feeling stressed about
things.
> What you may consider appropriate boundaries may be being felt by
him as
> intolerably restrictive and counter to his way of being.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I really do validate Lukas' feelings, I say things
like: your upset because the 4x4 is stuck or Your sad. -=-

If someone talked to me that way, I would explode.

I don't talk to my husband that way.
Seriously, what would I say? "You're sad because I charged twice as
much as you expected last month," or "You're upset because the
transmission went out on the Caravan" ??

I have found that speaking to my children as I would to a friend
makes a huge difference.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gold Standard

>>I have just finished Ross greene's book but the situations didn't seem
>>to apply to how/why Lukas explodes and i felt the book didn't offer
>>enough solutions.<<

This comes at the behavior from the angle that it is wrong and needs
"solutions". As Robin stated, beautifully so, sometimes children just need
to "explode" with emotions, and some children are wired to do it more than
others, and some children have more stresses in their lives, whether because
they have more negative things going on or because their bodies have
stronger reactions to typical life, and in either case, they NEED to let
that emotion out. Figuring out how to stop it is NOT what they need. Feeling
calm, loving support around them when they are feeling their worst IS what
they need. If you were exploding with frustration or anger, would you want
the people around you scurrying (in thought or in action)to figure out how
to stop you from feeling it? Or would you like loving people around you who
knew that you were a whole and capable person just struggling in the moment?

While it is important to eventually some day notice the needs of others
around us, children get this over time and at different ages. I think it is
unfair to expect kids in emotional turmoil to also look at what is best for
everyone around them. Heck, that is hard for adults, and near impossible for
young ones. The parent needs to take care of this for the child. While
deeply respecting the need of the child (staying calm and supportive)the
parent needs to figure out what space works. Maybe that means physically
moving, maybe it means asking for others to move, maybe it means leaving a
restaurant or grocery store.

In my home when my kids were little, ds had higher needs this way than the
other three. Surprisingly (or not), when ds had the intense feelings, his
siblings actually asked me to go take care of him, giving up their time with
me for a while. They instinctively knew that ds needed my support. They knew
if they were struggling like ds was, they would want mom's loving support.
And they also knew that my taking care of him in his time of need meant that
he would be a better sibling after. And he always was. It is a healing
process.

None of my kids tantrum or act out today. You do not have to worry that
these intense feelings that come out as screams and tantrums will continue
as they get older if you support them through it now.

>> I really do validate Lukas' feelings, I say things
l>>like: your upset because the 4x4 is stuck or Your sad.<<

Validating is definitely one of the bad psychological ideas of the century,
imho. What does it do? LISTENING deeply and supportively seems the better
route.

>> Plus, when he gets that upset,
>>he runsinto the bathroom and doesn't want anyone to bother him.<<

Well, he's making a clear decision there. I would just touch in every now
and then with a "I'm here if you need me." through the bathroom door. It is
important that he not think you are trying to persuade him to do or be
anything different from what he is. Whatever he is doing, appreciate HIM,
not necessarily the behavior or feelings, but the boy who is underneath it
all, struggling to get rid of the junk so that he can shine again.

Jacki

halfshadow1

-We have only recently been trying to get him to stop(thank you
Robyn,i like what you wrote) because he has days where it's every
minute he's exploding. We don't know why. How about when we tell him
he can't have something right now and he insists"in a minute?" should
we pacify him with: yes, in a minute or be truthful...tomorrow we will
get it for you! and let him pitch his fit? I told him tonight that he
can yell(thanks you all) and it's okay, i love him. What can my
husband and i do for our stress,my heart races when he cries, our
nerves?-- In [email protected], "Gold Standard"
<jacki@...> wrote:
>
>
> >>I have just finished Ross greene's book but the situations didn't seem
> >>to apply to how/why Lukas explodes and i felt the book didn't offer
> >>enough solutions.<<
>
> This comes at the behavior from the angle that it is wrong and needs
> "solutions". As Robin stated, beautifully so, sometimes children
just need
> to "explode" with emotions, and some children are wired to do it
more than
> others, and some children have more stresses in their lives, whether
because
> they have more negative things going on or because their bodies have
> stronger reactions to typical life, and in either case, they NEED to let
> that emotion out. Figuring out how to stop it is NOT what they need.
Feeling
> calm, loving support around them when they are feeling their worst
IS what
> they need. If you were exploding with frustration or anger, would
you want
> the people around you scurrying (in thought or in action)to figure
out how
> to stop you from feeling it? Or would you like loving people around
you who
> knew that you were a whole and capable person just struggling in the
moment?
>
> While it is important to eventually some day notice the needs of others
> around us, children get this over time and at different ages. I
think it is
> unfair to expect kids in emotional turmoil to also look at what is
best for
> everyone around them. Heck, that is hard for adults, and near
impossible for
> young ones. The parent needs to take care of this for the child. While
> deeply respecting the need of the child (staying calm and supportive)the
> parent needs to figure out what space works. Maybe that means physically
> moving, maybe it means asking for others to move, maybe it means
leaving a
> restaurant or grocery store.
>
> In my home when my kids were little, ds had higher needs this way
than the
> other three. Surprisingly (or not), when ds had the intense
feelings, his
> siblings actually asked me to go take care of him, giving up their
time with
> me for a while. They instinctively knew that ds needed my support.
They knew
> if they were struggling like ds was, they would want mom's loving
support.
> And they also knew that my taking care of him in his time of need
meant that
> he would be a better sibling after. And he always was. It is a healing
> process.
>
> None of my kids tantrum or act out today. You do not have to worry that
> these intense feelings that come out as screams and tantrums will
continue
> as they get older if you support them through it now.
>
> >> I really do validate Lukas' feelings, I say things
> l>>like: your upset because the 4x4 is stuck or Your sad.<<
>
> Validating is definitely one of the bad psychological ideas of the
century,
> imho. What does it do? LISTENING deeply and supportively seems the
better
> route.
>
> >> Plus, when he gets that upset,
> >>he runsinto the bathroom and doesn't want anyone to bother him.<<
>
> Well, he's making a clear decision there. I would just touch in
every now
> and then with a "I'm here if you need me." through the bathroom
door. It is
> important that he not think you are trying to persuade him to do or be
> anything different from what he is. Whatever he is doing, appreciate
HIM,
> not necessarily the behavior or feelings, but the boy who is
underneath it
> all, struggling to get rid of the junk so that he can shine again.
>
> Jacki
>

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< >I have just finished Ross greene's book but the situations didn't seem
> to apply to how/why Lukas explodes and i felt the book didn't offer
> enough solutions. >>>>

I always feel like the practices in that book are where Unschoolers start
with all their children, particularly the idea of letting go of the need to
control every little thing (the baskets concept). It always amazes me now
when I read more conventional parenting books the kind of issues that
parents are getting tied in knots about, like haircuts or wearing pajamas
or...well all the stuff Unschooling has shown me how to just let go of
trying or even wanting to control.

If you are looking for solutions to "stop the screaming", I don't think that
book is about that. I think it is about responding lovingly to the needs
that kids have, and about making life more peaceful overall, creating the
environment where the stressors are reduced so that there are fewer
outbursts over time as the child matures. YMMV.

<<<< I really do validate Lukas' feelings, I say things
> like: your upset because the 4x4 is stuck or Your sad.>>>>

Hmm. If you are making an assumption that the immediate apparent problem is
what is causing the upset but the real stress is more nebulous those words
wouldn't help. Also screaming is probably not "sad". Some of those "this is
how to validate" ideas come from the notion that children need to be taught
the right words to identify their own feelings. :/

For me validating and empathizing with Jayn is less wordy. It is about
allowing my internal conviction that Jayn has the right to feel and express
her feelings show on my face and in my body. Sometimes it is more like
saying, "What a shame" if the root of the problem really is right in the
moment. Sometimes it is just nodding and saying, "I know". Sometimes it is
just holding out my arms.

My clue usually is if I fix it (to use your example, pull the truck out of
the sand) but she stays upset or cranky then that clearly wasn't the real
cause. I'm very lucky with Jayn because she is a child that usually wants to
be hugged when there is a problem, and certainly wants to interact
physically when she is stressed - so it is a lot easier for me to help her.
However sometimes I just get it wrong too, and the outburst escalates.

<<<< I like your
> idea about taking him somewhere when he *explodes* I don't know how i
> can though because it's so sudden and we live in a small house(619
> square feet) So, everything is heard. Plus, when he gets that upset,
> he runsinto the bathroom and doesn't want anyone to bother him.>>>>

I'm sorry to be chuckling but, um, you don't know how you can, but he
already does! It's not my idea, it's the idea of other people who have
shared it over the years, AND it apparently is his idea too. So the bathroom
is his haven. I bet he enjoys in a visceral kind of way the echoey reverb
that bathrooms often have. Can he run water over his hands while in there?

I love the suggestion to just be available on the other side of the door. I
would add that on no account give him a lecture about not screaming when he
emerges.

I have found that much later, after dinner, when Jayn and I are snuggling
quietly on the sofa or bed is the best time to ask a few questions about her
feelings earlier. BTW she has found screaming into a pillow to be really
effective. There have been times when one really good scream is all she has
needed to let out the frustration. Or pouring out some water. Sometimes our
best conversations about feelings have happened during a physical activity.
(Do I seem to be saying this over and over on every list I am on? Probably
to remind myself of it.)

Robyn L. Coburn

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< How about when we tell him
> he can't have something right now and he insists"in a minute?" should
> we pacify him with: yes, in a minute or be truthful...tomorrow we will
> get it for you! and let him pitch his fit? >>>>

Do you really not know the answer to this? Is your heart really telling you
to lie to your son? Worse, to do it habitually?

I can't help feeling that it wouldn't be long before he stopped trusting
anything you said.

Only say tomorrow if that is the truth. Pacifying him is only postponing
expressing his grief.

However, people have reported success with pursuing a magical fantasy with
their upset child along the lines of "Gee wouldn't it be great if we could
just wave a magic wand and have all the cheese puffs we want any time. What
if I could wave my wand over that tree and it would just grow cheese puffs
as if they were oranges. Or maybe we could have a magic cow that gave cheese
puffs instead of milk. I wish we could have that." It shows that you are
sympathetic to the seriousness of his desire.

Another idea is to stop saying "but". Stop before the "but". The "but" is
part of what is negating the feelings that are real and strong right now.
You reported that you have said things like, "I'm sorry that we don't have
any puffs, but we'll get more tomorrow."

You are thinking logically and sensibly, BUT he isn't able to do that yet
developmentally. He is probably hearing everything after the "but" as
minimizing. You might have more success if you stick with just the empathy
portion of the statement ("I'm so sorry we're out of puffs") and let him
mourn that loss for a while until he is ready to hear the solution portion.

As for you and your dh coping with your nerves, the best suggestion I have
is to try to breathe through it. Notice your feelings but don't follow them
or dive into them, if that makes sense. Deep breaths. Vocalize that you are
taking some deep breaths to help you stay calm.

When Jayn was a baby, from about 12 weeks old for about 4 weeks Jayn would
cry for about 20-30 minutes every evening. This is something that is
perfectly normal for some percentage of babies (See Brazelton "Touchpoints"
for more information). It was not colic, and it was not because Jayn had any
need other than to cry. I supported her need to cry - the infant version of
talking out her busy day - by taking her to a private place and holding her,
looking into her eyes and every now and then murmuring something positive
like "Yes, what a hard time." Eventually she would give a little sigh and
latch on to my always available nipple. It took a concious choice not to get
caught up in the noise of her crying, but to focus actually on her. One
thing that helped me was the mantra "This too shall pass". If I focussed on
how hard the crying was to listen to, it felt like it lasted for hours (even
though it didn't).

Danielle Conger has a great deal of stuff about meditation and strategies
that help her support her son's rages. Her writing is linked from
http://sandradodd.com/danielleconger She also owns the Always Unschooled
list for the parents of younger children (also linked from the same page).

There is a kind of rigor in committing to honesty with one's children. There
have been moments when I was tempted to utilize a "little white lie" such as
"the store was out" instead of admitting I just forgot. But I remind myself
to be scrupulously honest with Jayn, so that now I feel strong tension when
I am skirting towards leaving something out. The one time that I was living
a lie with her, without intending to be so, damaged the trust we had built.
(It was that I wasn't expressing my true opinion about one of her friends.)

Truth has become so much a part of our life that I get a kind of shock when
I hear other parents just using lies for their convenience. Just the other
day I heard a Mom saying, "The museum is closing now" because she was ready
to leave, instead of being honest about it being her choice. It is a way of
abrogating responsibility for choosing to be the authority. And it appears
in the short term to be the easiest choice, the pacifying action, but kids
aren't stupid. The child in question with the "closing" museum incident was
entirely dubious and pointed out several people actually entering. So then
the lie had to change to "They are *getting ready* to close." Yeah in 2 1/2
hours time! The kid knew. He knew he couldn't trust his Mom to tell him the
truth if it was at all inconvenient for her.

Robyn L. Coburn

Erin

> If someone talked to me that way, I would explode.

Hehe, you know what? Me too.

In her defense though, all those highly respected "how to talk" books
heavily recommend talking to kids that way. I have been desperately
trying to use Siblings without Rivalry and it's kind of a relief to me
to see those methods questioned here because I was thinking I am just
not doing it well enough. Reflective listening feels sooo corny and
artificial, and it certainly hasn't helped, but I thought if I just
stuck with it we'd have the magical peace and harmony described in the
books. Robyn's advice is so much more natural and intuitive, thank
you both for helping me realize I can let the phony stuff go.

Sandra Dodd

-=-all those highly respected "how to talk" books
heavily recommend talking to kids that way. I have been desperately
trying to use Siblings without Rivalry and it's kind of a relief to me
to see those methods questioned here because I was thinking I am just
not doing it well enough.-=-

Maybe it's the difference between recitation and conversation, though.

Sometimes it can be tone of voice. There is a bad, bad baby-talking
way to do things. And there's a real, human-voice way.

Holly was really furious at someone we know for condescending to
her. I helped her figure out why she was angry by asking her
questions, and saying "Maybe you feel like he thinks..." kinds of
things. She rejected some and accepted others, in a "getting warm"
and "getting cold" kind of way and by the time she was calmed down
she also had a better idea of what was up. As furious as she was,
though, had I baby-talked her and *told* her what she was angry about
(in the opinion of mine that might have been wrong), she would've
been furious with me too.

Sometimes when something goes wrong for me I'm not angry about that.
If my 4x4 was stuck I might throw a fit NOT because it was stuck, but
because I hadn't wanted to ride it then anyway, or hadn't wanted to
ride it in that place but had been given no other options, or because
someone said "Don't get it stuck" and that was an infuriating thing
and now that it's stuck I'll have to hear "I told you not to get it
stuck." There could be lots of things that started way before that
were worse than it being stuck.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

halfshadow1

-Looking at it that way would make me angry too. Thank s Sandra. I was
surprised because P.E.T. and other books say to do that but i see what
your saying.-- In [email protected], "Erin" <jmem@...> wrote:
>
> > If someone talked to me that way, I would explode.
>
> Hehe, you know what? Me too.
>
> In her defense though, all those highly respected "how to talk" books
> heavily recommend talking to kids that way. I have been desperately
> trying to use Siblings without Rivalry and it's kind of a relief to me
> to see those methods questioned here because I was thinking I am just
> not doing it well enough. Reflective listening feels sooo corny and
> artificial, and it certainly hasn't helped, but I thought if I just
> stuck with it we'd have the magical peace and harmony described in the
> books. Robyn's advice is so much more natural and intuitive, thank
> you both for helping me realize I can let the phony stuff go.
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-How about when we tell him
he can't have something right now and he insists"in a minute?" should
we pacify him with: yes, in a minute or be truthful...tomorrow we will
get it for you! and let him pitch his fit? -=-

I would distract him with something altogether different. If you
don't have cheese puffs, find some great bath tub toys (ice can be
fun--freeze water in a bundt pan or jello mold to have in advance, or
a fish-mold, for a bathtub fish--we did that a lot), and offer him a
long, fun bath. Put a CD player in there and put on some music he
likes.

If someone wants cheese puffs and there aren't any, maybe the worst
thing to do is discuss cheese puffs.

-=-I told him tonight that he
can yell(thanks you all) and it's okay, i love him.-=-

If you were upset and crying and your husband said "You can cry, it's
okay, I love you" would that help?


-=-What can my
husband and i do for our stress,my heart races when he cries, our
nerves?---=-

Without knowing what all has lead up to this and what leads up to it
in the moment, I can't really say. Do you have friends who know you
and him well enough to advise you on what might be happening? They
might see something you don't.

Are you treating your son more like a kid than like a person? Are
you treating him more like a theoretical kid who "should" be doing
this or that, instead of seeing him clearly for what he can do and
what he does like?

Do you know what his favorite foods are and can you just plan ahead
to the point that you never run out? We have lots of such things
here. Milk. We have run out of milk twice in the past ten years.
We just make sure there's milk here the same way we make sure there's
toilet paper.

Then again, I know people who can run out of toilet paper.

Sometimes kids are frustrated because parents don't plan ahead
better. <g>

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vida

On Mar 23, 2007, at 3:53 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Sometimes when something goes wrong for me I'm not angry about that.
> If my 4x4 was stuck I might throw a fit NOT because it was stuck, but
> because I hadn't wanted to ride it then anyway, or hadn't wanted to
> ride it in that place but had been given no other options, or because
> someone said "Don't get it stuck" and that was an infuriating thing
> and now that it's stuck I'll have to hear "I told you not to get it
> stuck." There could be lots of things that started way before that
> were worse than it being stuck.


Yes! Yes yes!!! These are the thoughts I am coming to. Getting past
what seems to be on the surface. My apologies for jumping in on this
thread with nothing useful to offer, but reading Sandra's paragraph
gave me such an "ah ha" moment I couldn't resist. I too have read
the How to Talk books, and I have to say that in many cases the
suggestions did work, but not always. What ALWAYS works is real,
honest, respectful, genuine connecting with my children. That's what
they respond to. When my girls were 5 they responded well to the re-
stating their feelings. But now if I try that they tell me to shut
up. Yeah... I'd say the same thing to someone who tried to talk to
me like that. Kids can always tell if your "there" or if your just
whipping out tactics to try and "fix" a situation. One is genuine,
the other is phony.

Thanks Sandra for the "a HA" moment.... I love it when that happens :)

Vida



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

halfshadow1

-THIS:I can't help feeling that it wouldn't be long before he stopped
trusting
anything you said. Brought tears to my eyes. Instant change...NO more
lying! thank you.-- In [email protected], "Robyn L.
Coburn" <dezigna@...> wrote:
>
> <<<< How about when we tell him
> > he can't have something right now and he insists"in a minute?" should
> > we pacify him with: yes, in a minute or be truthful...tomorrow we will
> > get it for you! and let him pitch his fit? >>>>
>
> Do you really not know the answer to this? Is your heart really
telling you
> to lie to your son? Worse, to do it habitually?
>
> I can't help feeling that it wouldn't be long before he stopped
trusting
> anything you said.
>
> Only say tomorrow if that is the truth. Pacifying him is only
postponing
> expressing his grief.
>
> However, people have reported success with pursuing a magical
fantasy with
> their upset child along the lines of "Gee wouldn't it be great if we
could
> just wave a magic wand and have all the cheese puffs we want any
time. What
> if I could wave my wand over that tree and it would just grow cheese
puffs
> as if they were oranges. Or maybe we could have a magic cow that
gave cheese
> puffs instead of milk. I wish we could have that." It shows that you
are
> sympathetic to the seriousness of his desire.
>
> Another idea is to stop saying "but". Stop before the "but". The
"but" is
> part of what is negating the feelings that are real and strong right
now.
> You reported that you have said things like, "I'm sorry that we
don't have
> any puffs, but we'll get more tomorrow."
>
> You are thinking logically and sensibly, BUT he isn't able to do
that yet
> developmentally. He is probably hearing everything after the "but" as
> minimizing. You might have more success if you stick with just the
empathy
> portion of the statement ("I'm so sorry we're out of puffs") and let
him
> mourn that loss for a while until he is ready to hear the solution
portion.
>
> As for you and your dh coping with your nerves, the best suggestion
I have
> is to try to breathe through it. Notice your feelings but don't
follow them
> or dive into them, if that makes sense. Deep breaths. Vocalize that
you are
> taking some deep breaths to help you stay calm.
>
> When Jayn was a baby, from about 12 weeks old for about 4 weeks Jayn
would
> cry for about 20-30 minutes every evening. This is something that is
> perfectly normal for some percentage of babies (See Brazelton
"Touchpoints"
> for more information). It was not colic, and it was not because Jayn
had any
> need other than to cry. I supported her need to cry - the infant
version of
> talking out her busy day - by taking her to a private place and
holding her,
> looking into her eyes and every now and then murmuring something
positive
> like "Yes, what a hard time." Eventually she would give a little
sigh and
> latch on to my always available nipple. It took a concious choice
not to get
> caught up in the noise of her crying, but to focus actually on her. One
> thing that helped me was the mantra "This too shall pass". If I
focussed on
> how hard the crying was to listen to, it felt like it lasted for
hours (even
> though it didn't).
>
> Danielle Conger has a great deal of stuff about meditation and
strategies
> that help her support her son's rages. Her writing is linked from
> http://sandradodd.com/danielleconger She also owns the Always
Unschooled
> list for the parents of younger children (also linked from the same
page).
>
> There is a kind of rigor in committing to honesty with one's
children. There
> have been moments when I was tempted to utilize a "little white lie"
such as
> "the store was out" instead of admitting I just forgot. But I remind
myself
> to be scrupulously honest with Jayn, so that now I feel strong
tension when
> I am skirting towards leaving something out. The one time that I was
living
> a lie with her, without intending to be so, damaged the trust we had
built.
> (It was that I wasn't expressing my true opinion about one of her
friends.)
>
> Truth has become so much a part of our life that I get a kind of
shock when
> I hear other parents just using lies for their convenience. Just the
other
> day I heard a Mom saying, "The museum is closing now" because she
was ready
> to leave, instead of being honest about it being her choice. It is a
way of
> abrogating responsibility for choosing to be the authority. And it
appears
> in the short term to be the easiest choice, the pacifying action,
but kids
> aren't stupid. The child in question with the "closing" museum
incident was
> entirely dubious and pointed out several people actually entering.
So then
> the lie had to change to "They are *getting ready* to close." Yeah
in 2 1/2
> hours time! The kid knew. He knew he couldn't trust his Mom to tell
him the
> truth if it was at all inconvenient for her.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< > -=-I told him tonight that he
> can yell(thanks you all) and it's okay, i love him.-=-
>
> If you were upset and crying and your husband said "You can cry, it's
> okay, I love you" would that help? >>>>>

Yes. Completely! Especially if it is accompanied by open arms. (Not if it
were dismissive.)

Especially if it used to be some version of "Go away and cry somewhere I
can't hear you. You can come back when you are happy again."

Jayn has often been helped by, "It's OK to cry. I love you" and open arms.
As an aside there are times when she has been helped by "It's OK to throw
up" when she was holding back.

I'm not a huge fan of Dr. Phil, but one phrase he has that I do like is the
idea that your spouse is your "soft place to fall". I want to be that for
Jayn also.

Too many people, children and adults, spend their lives only feeling loved
when they are happy and pleasant. Helping our children know they are still
loved even when they are angry is really important.

Distraction in the moment might be very kind and help a child learn how to
wait patiently, but it might also just postpone the expression of anger, if
getting the stress out is the true need. Getting to the heart of the need
seems to be the important process.

Robyn L. Coburn

Sandra Dodd

-=I'm not a huge fan of Dr. Phil, but one phrase he has that I do
like is the
idea that your spouse is your "soft place to fall". I want to be that
for
Jayn also.-=-

That's different. I had taken the original to mean "Go ahead and
cry" as if crying all by itself would be a cure.

Sometimes people fixate on a problem and it blots out the entire
horizon for them, and they forget anything else in the world existed
or ever will except That One PROBLEM.

That's not good.

And sometimes people leave another person to cry. It's different to
offer to hold a person while she's crying. That's a whole different
thing.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

halfshadow1

-I understood what you meant Sandra. I really, really appreciate what
you are both telling me. Thank you so very much! -- In
[email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=I'm not a huge fan of Dr. Phil, but one phrase he has that I do
> like is the
> idea that your spouse is your "soft place to fall". I want to be that
> for
> Jayn also.-=-
>
> That's different. I had taken the original to mean "Go ahead and
> cry" as if crying all by itself would be a cure.
>
> Sometimes people fixate on a problem and it blots out the entire
> horizon for them, and they forget anything else in the world existed
> or ever will except That One PROBLEM.
>
> That's not good.
>
> And sometimes people leave another person to cry. It's different to
> offer to hold a person while she's crying. That's a whole different
> thing.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Kim H

<<Reflective listening feels sooo corny and
> artificial, and it certainly hasn't helped, but I thought if I just
> stuck with it we'd have the magical peace and harmony described in the
> books. Robyn's advice is so much more natural and intuitive, thank
> you both for helping me realize I can let the phony stuff go.>>

Active listening is really helpful when children need to vent and be heard free of judgment, advice, suggestions etc. I too read PET and Faber and Mazlish and although I still like those books I've now found something much more authentic - Naomi Aldort's Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves and this type of unschooling group list. Stopping the medicating of emotions is so important. Allowing our children to feel and be angry or sad or whatever it is without trying to fix it (if it's not a possibility) for them just to simply stop them crying. It is hard sometimes to listen to crying/raging/screaming and remain calm and kind a nd nurturing but such a wonderful gift we can give to our children.

Kim


----- Original Message -----
From: halfshadow1
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 12:57 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Alot of screaming


-Looking at it that way would make me angry too. Thank s Sandra. I was
surprised because P.E.T. and other books say to do that but i see what
your saying.-- In [email protected], "Erin" <jmem@...> wrote:
>
> > If someone talked to me that way, I would explode.
>
> Hehe, you know what? Me too.
>
> In her defense though, all those highly respected "how to talk" books
> heavily recommend talking to kids that way. I have been desperately
> trying to use Siblings without Rivalry and it's kind of a relief to me
> to see those methods questioned here because I was thinking I am just
> not doing it well enough. Reflective listening feels sooo corny and
> artificial, and it certainly hasn't helped, but I thought if I just
> stuck with it we'd have the magical peace and harmony described in the
> books. Robyn's advice is so much more natural and intuitive, thank
> you both for helping me realize I can let the phony stuff go.
>






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