Can't finish a sentence
halfshadow1
Hi everyone. I have an issue with the way my son doesn't let me finish
a sentence. Lukas is 5yo. very spirited,active.
Whenever i try to explain something to him or answer a question he
cuts me off. I try to limit the words in my sentences to 10 or less if
i can.
He will stop me from talking with "but mommy, i want to tell you
this" even after i let him finish he will repeat the same.
I really wish to have him hear me and connect. He doesn't maintain
any eye contact either. However, he will look at me when he's talking.
I tried speaking in a lower and slower voice and such but it doesn't
work,lol
Just an age thing you think? thanks, Heather
a sentence. Lukas is 5yo. very spirited,active.
Whenever i try to explain something to him or answer a question he
cuts me off. I try to limit the words in my sentences to 10 or less if
i can.
He will stop me from talking with "but mommy, i want to tell you
this" even after i let him finish he will repeat the same.
I really wish to have him hear me and connect. He doesn't maintain
any eye contact either. However, he will look at me when he's talking.
I tried speaking in a lower and slower voice and such but it doesn't
work,lol
Just an age thing you think? thanks, Heather
Eric and Jules
I have an intense and physical 8 yo boy. He likes touch and movement
while we talk. Some things that work for us are hugging while talking,
playing catch/ passing an object back and forth while talking. I try
and touch him a lot especially when he is calm and I don't have
anything in particular to say. He loves his back scratched so I do
that for him often. I also keep the sentences short, I try to make 3
word sentences if possible. I would like to emphasize this kid is
great, I love his intensity and he hears that a lot.
Jules.
while we talk. Some things that work for us are hugging while talking,
playing catch/ passing an object back and forth while talking. I try
and touch him a lot especially when he is calm and I don't have
anything in particular to say. He loves his back scratched so I do
that for him often. I also keep the sentences short, I try to make 3
word sentences if possible. I would like to emphasize this kid is
great, I love his intensity and he hears that a lot.
Jules.
On Dec 24, 2006, at 12:58 PM, halfshadow1 wrote:
> Hi everyone. I have an issue with the way my son doesn't let me finish
> a sentence. Lukas is 5yo. very spirited,active.
> Whenever i try to explain something to him or answer a question he
> cuts me off. I try to limit the words in my sentences to 10 or less if
> i can.
> He will stop me from talking with "but mommy, i want to tell you
> this" even after i let him finish he will repeat the same.
> I really wish to have him hear me and connect. He doesn't maintain
> any eye contact either. However, he will look at me when he's talking.
> I tried speaking in a lower and slower voice and such but it doesn't
> work,lol
> Just an age thing you think? thanks, Heather
plaidpanties666
Morgan used to tell me to "shush" or run away after maybe three
words. It felt like trying to communicate in "sound bites" (or is it
bytes? I've never been sure). She does it much less nowadays, and
after more words, but there are days when I still have to answer any
questions in three words or less.
One thing I noticed was she would listen to more words depending on
my tone. If I was using what I think of as my "mommy voice"-
"Shush!" If I talk to her like a friend, I get to use more words. I
should say that my "mommy voice" isn't "poodle voice". Its more of a
lecturing tone. Once I realized that, I was actually sort of
grateful for her shushes, since that's not the kind of relationship
I want to have with Mo.
Its hard for me to know if she's been growing out of it, or if I'm
just getting better at communicating with her. Some of both, I
think. Watching her interact with other people, I see her
saying "shush" much less, but changing the subject more - that may
be closer to what Lukas is doing. With Mo it always seems to be a
matter of discomfort. When she's under a lot of stress she needs
less words.
A couple days ago a neighbor stopped by and tried to ask her
a "teaching question" - oh, what was it? it was something about
spelling or simple arithmetic... anyway, Mo promptly changed the
subject. The neighbor tried to repeat the question and Mo changed
the subject again. At that point the neighbor looked at me and I
said "I don't think she wants to talk about that."
I like the idea someone else posted about touch and movement -
that's something I'd like to explore with Mo, too. But definately
try to listen to yourself while you're talking to Lukas and ask
yourself "Is this how I would sound if I was talking to an adult
friend?" I didn't even notice how I sounded until I made a concious
effort to listen to my own voice - it was like hearing my Dad come
out of my mouth! Yikes!
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
words. It felt like trying to communicate in "sound bites" (or is it
bytes? I've never been sure). She does it much less nowadays, and
after more words, but there are days when I still have to answer any
questions in three words or less.
One thing I noticed was she would listen to more words depending on
my tone. If I was using what I think of as my "mommy voice"-
"Shush!" If I talk to her like a friend, I get to use more words. I
should say that my "mommy voice" isn't "poodle voice". Its more of a
lecturing tone. Once I realized that, I was actually sort of
grateful for her shushes, since that's not the kind of relationship
I want to have with Mo.
Its hard for me to know if she's been growing out of it, or if I'm
just getting better at communicating with her. Some of both, I
think. Watching her interact with other people, I see her
saying "shush" much less, but changing the subject more - that may
be closer to what Lukas is doing. With Mo it always seems to be a
matter of discomfort. When she's under a lot of stress she needs
less words.
A couple days ago a neighbor stopped by and tried to ask her
a "teaching question" - oh, what was it? it was something about
spelling or simple arithmetic... anyway, Mo promptly changed the
subject. The neighbor tried to repeat the question and Mo changed
the subject again. At that point the neighbor looked at me and I
said "I don't think she wants to talk about that."
I like the idea someone else posted about touch and movement -
that's something I'd like to explore with Mo, too. But definately
try to listen to yourself while you're talking to Lukas and ask
yourself "Is this how I would sound if I was talking to an adult
friend?" I didn't even notice how I sounded until I made a concious
effort to listen to my own voice - it was like hearing my Dad come
out of my mouth! Yikes!
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
Gold Standard
>>I have an issue with the way my son doesn't let me finisha sentence.<<
When I read this post, this statement stuck out. I think it is accurate. You
have an issue with your son's non-need for you to finish your sentence. I
don't necessarily think your son has a problem.
I think sometimes we talk waaaaaaay more than our kids need.
Just a thought,
Jacki
Karen Wilcox
Hi,
You named four classic symptoms of ADHD: spirited, active (as if driven by a motor), interrupts a lot, and poor eye contact. My 6yo DD has it, and I have researched my brains out about it in order to help her, so I have learned a lot. One of the things I have learned for sure is that it is a real disorder.
Unfortunately, it seems that many in the unschooling community have such a backlash against "labels" that they throw the "diagnosis baby" out with the bathwater. Cancer is a label too. Shall we deny that anyone has cancer and not explore treatment options?
Lukas's symptoms do not mean that he necessarily has ADHD, but you certainly may want to explore it further. I know of parents who so wish they had known about their children's ADHD when their children were still young. They would have understood them (allowing more connection) much better. My research has certainly helped me to understand and help my daughter, including finding a special diet that has ended her chronic headaches. In fact, it was my understanding of ADHD that eventually led me to homeschooling and then to unschooling! How's *that* for a label that may be more of a friend to the homeschool community than many realize? In fact, I have shared with other parents of PS ADHDers about the benefits of both HS and unschooling!
(At first I was going to send this offlist, thinking that the moderator would block this post, because that happened to me on another unschooling list, but here goes.)
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You named four classic symptoms of ADHD: spirited, active (as if driven by a motor), interrupts a lot, and poor eye contact. My 6yo DD has it, and I have researched my brains out about it in order to help her, so I have learned a lot. One of the things I have learned for sure is that it is a real disorder.
Unfortunately, it seems that many in the unschooling community have such a backlash against "labels" that they throw the "diagnosis baby" out with the bathwater. Cancer is a label too. Shall we deny that anyone has cancer and not explore treatment options?
Lukas's symptoms do not mean that he necessarily has ADHD, but you certainly may want to explore it further. I know of parents who so wish they had known about their children's ADHD when their children were still young. They would have understood them (allowing more connection) much better. My research has certainly helped me to understand and help my daughter, including finding a special diet that has ended her chronic headaches. In fact, it was my understanding of ADHD that eventually led me to homeschooling and then to unschooling! How's *that* for a label that may be more of a friend to the homeschool community than many realize? In fact, I have shared with other parents of PS ADHDers about the benefits of both HS and unschooling!
(At first I was going to send this offlist, thinking that the moderator would block this post, because that happened to me on another unschooling list, but here goes.)
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 28, 2006, at 1:34 PM, Karen Wilcox wrote:
labels out for the sake of throwing out labels. Every noun is a
label. We do, however, have strong doubts about the value of giving a
child a "diagnosis" of ADD - but we're not so silly as to dismiss it
just because it is "a label." By assuming that we have nothing more
than an unreasonable bias against "labels," you have blithely
dismissed the very real and thoughtful reasons that we do not think
it is a good idea to label a child as ADD.
I read books about kids who have the kinds of characteristics my
children have, to broaden my own thinking, stimulate new ideas about
how to help my child get along better in the world, etc. But, I am
very careful NOT to label my children as ADD, or compulsive, or
spirited, or explosive, or any other limiting label with such
negative connotations, because I do feel that there are a myriad of
potentially very negative consequences of that kind of labeling.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Unfortunately, it seems that many in the unschooling community haveMy experience with people on THIS list is that they aren't throwing
> such a backlash against "labels" that they throw the "diagnosis
> baby" out with the bathwater. Cancer is a label too. Shall we
> deny that anyone has cancer and not explore treatment options?
labels out for the sake of throwing out labels. Every noun is a
label. We do, however, have strong doubts about the value of giving a
child a "diagnosis" of ADD - but we're not so silly as to dismiss it
just because it is "a label." By assuming that we have nothing more
than an unreasonable bias against "labels," you have blithely
dismissed the very real and thoughtful reasons that we do not think
it is a good idea to label a child as ADD.
I read books about kids who have the kinds of characteristics my
children have, to broaden my own thinking, stimulate new ideas about
how to help my child get along better in the world, etc. But, I am
very careful NOT to label my children as ADD, or compulsive, or
spirited, or explosive, or any other limiting label with such
negative connotations, because I do feel that there are a myriad of
potentially very negative consequences of that kind of labeling.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-(At first I was going to send this offlist, thinking that the
moderator would block this post, because that happened to me on
another unschooling list, but here goes.)-=-
I let it through because I thought others would learn from the
responses. The original poster might too, but having researched her
brains out and having learned "for sure" that it's "a real disorder,"
I don't think she came here to learn why others feel differently.
That's fine.
-=-Unfortunately, it seems that many in the unschooling community
have such a backlash against "labels" that they throw the "diagnosis
baby" out with the bathwater. Cancer is a label too. Shall we deny
that anyone has cancer and not explore treatment options?-=-
For whom is it unfortunate?
It's not a backlash, on my part, to avoid such labels. It's part of
the fabric of attachment parenting and respect for individuals' ways
of learning and being. Many labels have to do with comparing someone
to the average, so that you identify someone at some point in a curve
or as some part of a statistical breakdown. That rarely helps the
individual.
Rather than "treat" a child, rather than work to adapt the child to a
situation, it seems better to arrange situations with the child's
interests and preferences and strengths in mind. I adapt my home and
our activities to our children, rather than the other way around.
I don't have diagnosis babies. I have three real, whole children who
are themselves and have been since conception.
Cancer is the label for something that develops and can kill a person.
ADD is the label for the way someone is throughout a lifetime, and it
isn't a progressive disease or condition that kills a person if left
untreated.
Treatments for cancer can be painful, uncomfortable or dangerous, but
people weigh the benefits against the sought-after outcome.
Treatments for ADD might be dangerous in the longrun, but those who
see school and "education" and "discipline" as more important than
the rights or comfort of an individual child are not so worried about
the danger to one child physically, biochemically or emotionally.
Unschoolers don't need to drug a child to be a good unschooler.
Homeschoolers often seem to feel it's necessary to fit a round child
into a square hole for which they've paid money.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
moderator would block this post, because that happened to me on
another unschooling list, but here goes.)-=-
I let it through because I thought others would learn from the
responses. The original poster might too, but having researched her
brains out and having learned "for sure" that it's "a real disorder,"
I don't think she came here to learn why others feel differently.
That's fine.
-=-Unfortunately, it seems that many in the unschooling community
have such a backlash against "labels" that they throw the "diagnosis
baby" out with the bathwater. Cancer is a label too. Shall we deny
that anyone has cancer and not explore treatment options?-=-
For whom is it unfortunate?
It's not a backlash, on my part, to avoid such labels. It's part of
the fabric of attachment parenting and respect for individuals' ways
of learning and being. Many labels have to do with comparing someone
to the average, so that you identify someone at some point in a curve
or as some part of a statistical breakdown. That rarely helps the
individual.
Rather than "treat" a child, rather than work to adapt the child to a
situation, it seems better to arrange situations with the child's
interests and preferences and strengths in mind. I adapt my home and
our activities to our children, rather than the other way around.
I don't have diagnosis babies. I have three real, whole children who
are themselves and have been since conception.
Cancer is the label for something that develops and can kill a person.
ADD is the label for the way someone is throughout a lifetime, and it
isn't a progressive disease or condition that kills a person if left
untreated.
Treatments for cancer can be painful, uncomfortable or dangerous, but
people weigh the benefits against the sought-after outcome.
Treatments for ADD might be dangerous in the longrun, but those who
see school and "education" and "discipline" as more important than
the rights or comfort of an individual child are not so worried about
the danger to one child physically, biochemically or emotionally.
Unschoolers don't need to drug a child to be a good unschooler.
Homeschoolers often seem to feel it's necessary to fit a round child
into a square hole for which they've paid money.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
halfshadow1
-I have learned from the responses. However i agree with Sandra and
Pam, i will never label him or drug him EVER. I will celebrate him and
honor him. Speaking of learning, i was on Sandras' site the other nite
reading a paragragh and looked over to the right sidebar.
Something about explaining the "no" if you have to say it. Gee, i
haven't been doing that..aha!! Little snippets of good stuff catching
my eye! Thanks.-- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
Pam, i will never label him or drug him EVER. I will celebrate him and
honor him. Speaking of learning, i was on Sandras' site the other nite
reading a paragragh and looked over to the right sidebar.
Something about explaining the "no" if you have to say it. Gee, i
haven't been doing that..aha!! Little snippets of good stuff catching
my eye! Thanks.-- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-(At first I was going to send this offlist, thinking that the
> moderator would block this post, because that happened to me on
> another unschooling list, but here goes.)-=-
>
> I let it through because I thought others would learn from the
> responses. The original poster might too, but having researched her
> brains out and having learned "for sure" that it's "a real disorder,"
> I don't think she came here to learn why others feel differently.
> That's fine.
>
> -=-Unfortunately, it seems that many in the unschooling community
> have such a backlash against "labels" that they throw the "diagnosis
> baby" out with the bathwater. Cancer is a label too. Shall we deny
> that anyone has cancer and not explore treatment options?-=-
>
> For whom is it unfortunate?
>
> It's not a backlash, on my part, to avoid such labels. It's part of
> the fabric of attachment parenting and respect for individuals' ways
> of learning and being. Many labels have to do with comparing someone
> to the average, so that you identify someone at some point in a curve
> or as some part of a statistical breakdown. That rarely helps the
> individual.
>
> Rather than "treat" a child, rather than work to adapt the child to a
> situation, it seems better to arrange situations with the child's
> interests and preferences and strengths in mind. I adapt my home and
> our activities to our children, rather than the other way around.
>
> I don't have diagnosis babies. I have three real, whole children who
> are themselves and have been since conception.
>
> Cancer is the label for something that develops and can kill a person.
> ADD is the label for the way someone is throughout a lifetime, and it
> isn't a progressive disease or condition that kills a person if left
> untreated.
>
> Treatments for cancer can be painful, uncomfortable or dangerous, but
> people weigh the benefits against the sought-after outcome.
>
> Treatments for ADD might be dangerous in the longrun, but those who
> see school and "education" and "discipline" as more important than
> the rights or comfort of an individual child are not so worried about
> the danger to one child physically, biochemically or emotionally.
> Unschoolers don't need to drug a child to be a good unschooler.
> Homeschoolers often seem to feel it's necessary to fit a round child
> into a square hole for which they've paid money.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Kathleen Whitfield
I think there's some validity to being careful with diagnosis. My mother,
who is fond of diagnosis, diagnosed my father with ADHD posthumously. I'm
sure at least one of my children could get the diagnosis. I think I could
probably get it for myself as well.
I think the problem lies in pathologizing behavior that really is pretty
common and that can even help individual's achieve (my father was very
successful -- even famous -- in his field). Cancer is a disease that can
kill you that usually can be identified in a lab. ADHD is a bit different,
so I don't think the analogy is apt.
I remember the feeling of relief when I heard about sensory integration
issues because it made certain behaviors of one of my children less baffling
as well as explained some physical things. At the same time, I don't go
around talking about it with regard to that child, as I see many parents do
all the time. I'm not even willing to signal the gender of the child on this
list (since I have four -- two boys and two girls). It's also likely that I
would've figured different and loving ways of interacting with my child on
my own without hearing any talk of sensory issues. I'm not a
run-to-the-doctor worrywart kind of mother, but I was worried I was seeing
symptoms of a neurological problem in my then-one-year-old. In clearing that
concern, I was exposed to talk of sensory integration.
One danger in diagnosis is that these things (ADHD and sensory integration
issues) can take over a family life. I don't want my child to identify as
anything other than a unique, wonderful, loved person; I don't want other
people in our family, friends or strangers to look at my child through the
prism of a semi-trendy diagnosis. It's more than bad enough that I am in
danger of doing so, and I'm not someone who is prone to embracing that kind
of diagnosis.
Kathleen
in SoCal
who is fond of diagnosis, diagnosed my father with ADHD posthumously. I'm
sure at least one of my children could get the diagnosis. I think I could
probably get it for myself as well.
I think the problem lies in pathologizing behavior that really is pretty
common and that can even help individual's achieve (my father was very
successful -- even famous -- in his field). Cancer is a disease that can
kill you that usually can be identified in a lab. ADHD is a bit different,
so I don't think the analogy is apt.
I remember the feeling of relief when I heard about sensory integration
issues because it made certain behaviors of one of my children less baffling
as well as explained some physical things. At the same time, I don't go
around talking about it with regard to that child, as I see many parents do
all the time. I'm not even willing to signal the gender of the child on this
list (since I have four -- two boys and two girls). It's also likely that I
would've figured different and loving ways of interacting with my child on
my own without hearing any talk of sensory issues. I'm not a
run-to-the-doctor worrywart kind of mother, but I was worried I was seeing
symptoms of a neurological problem in my then-one-year-old. In clearing that
concern, I was exposed to talk of sensory integration.
One danger in diagnosis is that these things (ADHD and sensory integration
issues) can take over a family life. I don't want my child to identify as
anything other than a unique, wonderful, loved person; I don't want other
people in our family, friends or strangers to look at my child through the
prism of a semi-trendy diagnosis. It's more than bad enough that I am in
danger of doing so, and I'm not someone who is prone to embracing that kind
of diagnosis.
Kathleen
in SoCal
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 29, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Kathleen Whitfield wrote:
do increase our understanding our children - including reading books
about all kinds of characteristics - versus labeling the child as
having "something."
I have many of the symptoms of ADD, myself - how about most of you?
(I think a lot of us unschooling parents have personalities that
include many "ADD symptoms.") I don't need a "diagnosis" - I don't
have an illness and these traits are aspects of my personality that
might be annoying to others at times and bother me, myself, at times,
too (like when I lose things or when I realize I haven't been
listening to what someone is telling me, etc). I do NOT have a
disorder. Do I need to live my life aware of "how I am?" Do I need to
select what I do, where I go, who I hang out with, what situations I
get myself into? Yeah - just like everybody else, depending on THEIR
particular personality traits. This particular bundle of traits is
considered problematic mostly because it is harder for people with
these traits to function well in school-type situations (including
other-than-school situations that are similar in their behavioral
requirements). Those of us with these traits can learn ways to do
better in those situations just like those with different sets of
traits can learn to do better in situations that are more problematic
for them. I did well in school - oddly - but now, looking back, I
realize I had to shut down much of myself in order to function there.
In order to sit still and follow directions and not interrupt and
wait my turn (none of which came easily to me), I also closed off the
parts of me that were most creative and interesting. I didn't even
KNOW it, usually, except for always having a deeply-in-the-background
sense of dread that I'd be unacceptable if the real me was ever let
out. I really believe school causes problems for people with all
kinds of personalities, but those kids with personalities that are
quiet and still and compliant are "easy" and don't cause extra work
for their parents and teachers and so they don't get "diagnosed" with
anything.
Also, many of these traits are extremely normal and healthy for
younger children - it can take a long time for some kids to develop
the ability to patiently wait their turn in a game or to wait for
someone to finish talking before blurting out responses. Some kids
pick these kinds of things up quickly and seemingly automatically and
other kids take longer and sometimes need more direct help from the
adults around them. I don't need to diagnose a kid as ADD in order to
help a child come slowly over time to realize that (1) they really
hate waiting their turn so maybe playing games where they have to do
that isn't the best use of their time and (2) if they want to play
those games, part of the game is waiting so figure out how to be able
to do that.
TOO often, a diagnosis of ADD or ADHD harms a child because it lets
the adults in that child's life off the hook for providing the best
environment for that child's temperament. Let's diagnose the
environment, instead, that isn't set up appropriately for children
with certain kinds of personality traits - that doesn't support the
child as he/she is, but labels the child's personality as a disorder
- bad, sick.
Without the diagnosis, a child has behavior traits that will OFTEN
change over time, anyway, and the child will do best with help from
parents who respond by setting up his/her environment supportively.
I have so many students who are overly passive and wait to be told
what to do and what to learn and they don't engage with the course
content, but simply repeat back what they've been told. THAT behavior
could be bundled into a set of symptoms and called "PDS" (passive
dependency syndrome). Most of my freshman college students "have it."
I consider it FAR more debilitating than the set of so-called
symptoms of ADD.
Many times people will say that the diagnosis of ADD in their
children helped them help their children. I don't believe they needed
the diagnosis. If they have a child who exhibits any of the following
behaviors, they can help their child with the specific behaviors
without labeling the child has having a disorder. If a child tends to
fidget constantly - then don't put the child into situations where it
will bother others, give him/her things to fidget with, ignore the
fidgeting when possible, and so on. And the same for all the other
"symptoms." Refusing to diagnose/label is not the same as refusing to
help the child.
-pam
SYMPTOMS OF ADD or ADHD:
_ Often fidgeting with hands or feet, or squirming while seated.
_ Having difficulty remaining seated.
_ Being easily distracted by extraneous stimuli.
_ Having difficulty awaiting turn in games or group activities.
_ Often blurting out answers before questions are completed.
_ Having difficulty in following instructions.
_ Having difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities.
_Often shifting from one uncompleted task to another.
_ Having difficulty playing quietly.
_Often talking excessively.
_ Often interrupting or intruding on others.
_ Often not listening to what is being said.
_Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
_Often engaging in physically dangerous activities without
considering possible consequences.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I was worried I was seeingThere is a HUGE difference, in my mind, between us doing what we can
> symptoms of a neurological problem in my then-one-year-old. In
> clearing that
> concern, I was exposed to talk of sensory integration.
do increase our understanding our children - including reading books
about all kinds of characteristics - versus labeling the child as
having "something."
I have many of the symptoms of ADD, myself - how about most of you?
(I think a lot of us unschooling parents have personalities that
include many "ADD symptoms.") I don't need a "diagnosis" - I don't
have an illness and these traits are aspects of my personality that
might be annoying to others at times and bother me, myself, at times,
too (like when I lose things or when I realize I haven't been
listening to what someone is telling me, etc). I do NOT have a
disorder. Do I need to live my life aware of "how I am?" Do I need to
select what I do, where I go, who I hang out with, what situations I
get myself into? Yeah - just like everybody else, depending on THEIR
particular personality traits. This particular bundle of traits is
considered problematic mostly because it is harder for people with
these traits to function well in school-type situations (including
other-than-school situations that are similar in their behavioral
requirements). Those of us with these traits can learn ways to do
better in those situations just like those with different sets of
traits can learn to do better in situations that are more problematic
for them. I did well in school - oddly - but now, looking back, I
realize I had to shut down much of myself in order to function there.
In order to sit still and follow directions and not interrupt and
wait my turn (none of which came easily to me), I also closed off the
parts of me that were most creative and interesting. I didn't even
KNOW it, usually, except for always having a deeply-in-the-background
sense of dread that I'd be unacceptable if the real me was ever let
out. I really believe school causes problems for people with all
kinds of personalities, but those kids with personalities that are
quiet and still and compliant are "easy" and don't cause extra work
for their parents and teachers and so they don't get "diagnosed" with
anything.
Also, many of these traits are extremely normal and healthy for
younger children - it can take a long time for some kids to develop
the ability to patiently wait their turn in a game or to wait for
someone to finish talking before blurting out responses. Some kids
pick these kinds of things up quickly and seemingly automatically and
other kids take longer and sometimes need more direct help from the
adults around them. I don't need to diagnose a kid as ADD in order to
help a child come slowly over time to realize that (1) they really
hate waiting their turn so maybe playing games where they have to do
that isn't the best use of their time and (2) if they want to play
those games, part of the game is waiting so figure out how to be able
to do that.
TOO often, a diagnosis of ADD or ADHD harms a child because it lets
the adults in that child's life off the hook for providing the best
environment for that child's temperament. Let's diagnose the
environment, instead, that isn't set up appropriately for children
with certain kinds of personality traits - that doesn't support the
child as he/she is, but labels the child's personality as a disorder
- bad, sick.
Without the diagnosis, a child has behavior traits that will OFTEN
change over time, anyway, and the child will do best with help from
parents who respond by setting up his/her environment supportively.
I have so many students who are overly passive and wait to be told
what to do and what to learn and they don't engage with the course
content, but simply repeat back what they've been told. THAT behavior
could be bundled into a set of symptoms and called "PDS" (passive
dependency syndrome). Most of my freshman college students "have it."
I consider it FAR more debilitating than the set of so-called
symptoms of ADD.
Many times people will say that the diagnosis of ADD in their
children helped them help their children. I don't believe they needed
the diagnosis. If they have a child who exhibits any of the following
behaviors, they can help their child with the specific behaviors
without labeling the child has having a disorder. If a child tends to
fidget constantly - then don't put the child into situations where it
will bother others, give him/her things to fidget with, ignore the
fidgeting when possible, and so on. And the same for all the other
"symptoms." Refusing to diagnose/label is not the same as refusing to
help the child.
-pam
SYMPTOMS OF ADD or ADHD:
_ Often fidgeting with hands or feet, or squirming while seated.
_ Having difficulty remaining seated.
_ Being easily distracted by extraneous stimuli.
_ Having difficulty awaiting turn in games or group activities.
_ Often blurting out answers before questions are completed.
_ Having difficulty in following instructions.
_ Having difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities.
_Often shifting from one uncompleted task to another.
_ Having difficulty playing quietly.
_Often talking excessively.
_ Often interrupting or intruding on others.
_ Often not listening to what is being said.
_Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
_Often engaging in physically dangerous activities without
considering possible consequences.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> I don't have diagnosis babies. I have three real, whole children whoYES! Children who live in the whole free world, not the box that a label limits
> are themselves and have been since conception.
one's potential.
I've had a kid with Cancer and I gotta say, I'm pretty offended by this
comparison... Even while Hannah's cancer was being treated, I advocated for
HANNAH to be treated, not as a number, not as a patient, but as a PERSON. It
was a very different experience for the entirety of her medical staff.
ADHD/ADD is the same in that the person behind the label doesn't want the
*disorder* to be treated, they want the PERSON to be recognized and accepted for
whom they are, not medicated out of their personality.
Unschooling opens up far more possibilities for Life; acceptance of kids for Who
They Are opens far more possibilities in Life; parenting the kids you have
instead of grooming them to be who *you* want them to be opens far more
possiblities in Life.
Labels limit possiblities.
~diana :)
Sandra Dodd
-=-Do I need to live my life aware of "how I am?" Do I need to
select what I do, where I go, who I hang out with, what situations I
get myself into? Yeah - just like everybody else, depending on THEIR
particular personality traits. -=-
Howard Gardner calls the ability to be self-aware "intrapersonal
intelligence."
I cannot sit still through any hour-long anything. There have been a
few times lately when sitting still in one place was really the good
and expected thing to do. I was very happy when real reasons for me
to get up and go and do something important presented themselves.
When I was a kid in school, I was the kid who really (really) wanted
to be sent on errands, or to straighten up the book shelves, or to
take a note to the office, or alphabetize cards or ANYTHING that gave
me something I could do by myself and quickly, that gave me a chance
to move. Luckily for me, most of my teachers saw that. When one
didn't have the interpersonal skills or flexibility to see what I
needed and respond usefully, I resorted to making things out of paper
at my desk, writing notes or practicing my writing or doodling or
doing my homework for another class, but never did I (nor could I
have) just sit still and gaze levelly at the teacher and breathe
normally and be comfortable for 45 minutes. That is not going to
happen with me.
-=-I really believe school causes problems for people with all
kinds of personalities, but those kids with personalities that are
quiet and still and compliant are "easy" and don't cause extra work
for their parents and teachers and so they don't get "diagnosed" with
anything.
-=-
Yes. They call them "good."
Babies who aren't very curious or needy are called "good babies."
I doubt there's anyone here who thinks that a baby (especially a
curious and needy baby) can't tell the difference between
conversations and facial expressions in his presence that indicate
that he is something other than "good baby."
Parents who claim not to label children who have done so in ANY
context, no matter how far behind the child's back, have probably
indicated the same to him in non-verbal ways.
Sandra (who has so far today morning checked e-mail, burned a CD and
printed out documentation for it, made breakfast for six people (OH,
seven, because Marty came home for lunch from work and I made another
round because he ate sausage and eggs for lunch), two pots of tea,
sat and talked, played a round of Cranium with snow-bound
houseguests, done a load of laundry, fed all the pets, played Neopets
and now am listening to music and answering mail. Last night we had
nearly 20 people over playing Encore, and though a few did leave
between 9:00 and 10:00 because they needed to go to work the next
day, and another few left because the snow was starting to stick, the
game was still going at midnight (and those who know Keith will be
impressed to know that he was still playing at midnight too).
I could be the kind of person who wouldn't or couldn't do all that.
I see the energy and need to move and do as the source of
productivity and connections. Lots of people benefit from the traits
in me that other people would call "a disorder." And so on behalf of
other people as normal and as energetic as I am, I object whenever
less creative and active people try to encourage others like them to
label other busy, curious, zippy people as having a disorder or a
disease (like cancer, some say, and it's a huge insult to me and
millions of other normal people).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
select what I do, where I go, who I hang out with, what situations I
get myself into? Yeah - just like everybody else, depending on THEIR
particular personality traits. -=-
Howard Gardner calls the ability to be self-aware "intrapersonal
intelligence."
I cannot sit still through any hour-long anything. There have been a
few times lately when sitting still in one place was really the good
and expected thing to do. I was very happy when real reasons for me
to get up and go and do something important presented themselves.
When I was a kid in school, I was the kid who really (really) wanted
to be sent on errands, or to straighten up the book shelves, or to
take a note to the office, or alphabetize cards or ANYTHING that gave
me something I could do by myself and quickly, that gave me a chance
to move. Luckily for me, most of my teachers saw that. When one
didn't have the interpersonal skills or flexibility to see what I
needed and respond usefully, I resorted to making things out of paper
at my desk, writing notes or practicing my writing or doodling or
doing my homework for another class, but never did I (nor could I
have) just sit still and gaze levelly at the teacher and breathe
normally and be comfortable for 45 minutes. That is not going to
happen with me.
-=-I really believe school causes problems for people with all
kinds of personalities, but those kids with personalities that are
quiet and still and compliant are "easy" and don't cause extra work
for their parents and teachers and so they don't get "diagnosed" with
anything.
-=-
Yes. They call them "good."
Babies who aren't very curious or needy are called "good babies."
I doubt there's anyone here who thinks that a baby (especially a
curious and needy baby) can't tell the difference between
conversations and facial expressions in his presence that indicate
that he is something other than "good baby."
Parents who claim not to label children who have done so in ANY
context, no matter how far behind the child's back, have probably
indicated the same to him in non-verbal ways.
Sandra (who has so far today morning checked e-mail, burned a CD and
printed out documentation for it, made breakfast for six people (OH,
seven, because Marty came home for lunch from work and I made another
round because he ate sausage and eggs for lunch), two pots of tea,
sat and talked, played a round of Cranium with snow-bound
houseguests, done a load of laundry, fed all the pets, played Neopets
and now am listening to music and answering mail. Last night we had
nearly 20 people over playing Encore, and though a few did leave
between 9:00 and 10:00 because they needed to go to work the next
day, and another few left because the snow was starting to stick, the
game was still going at midnight (and those who know Keith will be
impressed to know that he was still playing at midnight too).
I could be the kind of person who wouldn't or couldn't do all that.
I see the energy and need to move and do as the source of
productivity and connections. Lots of people benefit from the traits
in me that other people would call "a disorder." And so on behalf of
other people as normal and as energetic as I am, I object whenever
less creative and active people try to encourage others like them to
label other busy, curious, zippy people as having a disorder or a
disease (like cancer, some say, and it's a huge insult to me and
millions of other normal people).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sandra (who has so far today morning...-=-
Oh yeah.
I had first written "this morning" because I'd only been up for four
hours, but I got up late and it was already 2:00.
I botched the editing.
But I had forgotten to add cooked a big pot of chicken, and one of
rice, and made two large green-chile casseroles.
I wish I had listed it, because I left them in the oven longer than I
would've. <g>
They're still okay. They could've used onions, but I'm not walking
to the store in snow this deep, nor getting in the car if I don't
really have to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oh yeah.
I had first written "this morning" because I'd only been up for four
hours, but I got up late and it was already 2:00.
I botched the editing.
But I had forgotten to add cooked a big pot of chicken, and one of
rice, and made two large green-chile casseroles.
I wish I had listed it, because I left them in the oven longer than I
would've. <g>
They're still okay. They could've used onions, but I'm not walking
to the store in snow this deep, nor getting in the car if I don't
really have to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Wilcox
A few general thoughts before I try to find time to respond to individual posts:
I am assuming that the beliefs and motivations for all of your responses on this topic are coming from a caring place within yourselves about families and children. I hope you are considering that the same might be the motivation for my post. So much so that even though I knew that I might receive some spirited responses (despite my lack of time to respond to much of them), my empathy for parents of ADHDers (especially the more severe cases) prompted me to stick my neck out.
You see, ADHD is called a spectrum disorder, meaning that it can present in varying degrees. Those with more severe cases of it are in more danger (from car accidents, the results of sexual promiscuity, etc.). Some of us may have seen children who were labeled ADHD who either did not have it or had a mild version of it. If we then conclude that it is not a real disorder and influence others accordingly, families of severely affected ADHDers may ignore important symptoms. We certainly could think of the set of symptoms as having to do with genetic makeup and not being a *disorder*. That would still leave us with the serious claim within most of the medical and pediatric community that such a group of symptoms can be dangerous to have and that steps can be taken to lessen the danger.
I doubt that I will have time to respond further until next year. Oops, and then I travel out of state, so it may be several days or more into 2007.
Happy New Year everyone!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am assuming that the beliefs and motivations for all of your responses on this topic are coming from a caring place within yourselves about families and children. I hope you are considering that the same might be the motivation for my post. So much so that even though I knew that I might receive some spirited responses (despite my lack of time to respond to much of them), my empathy for parents of ADHDers (especially the more severe cases) prompted me to stick my neck out.
> By assuming that we have nothing moreI did not say nor do I assume that such bias (and we all have our biases) is unreasonable. People generally do have reasons for what they believe about ADHD. What I am concerned about is that affected parents and their children may be missing out on information and help--help which, according to research, could save the lives of their children.
> than an unreasonable bias against "labels," you have blithely
> dismissed the very real and thoughtful reasons that we do not think
> it is a good idea to label a child as ADD.
You see, ADHD is called a spectrum disorder, meaning that it can present in varying degrees. Those with more severe cases of it are in more danger (from car accidents, the results of sexual promiscuity, etc.). Some of us may have seen children who were labeled ADHD who either did not have it or had a mild version of it. If we then conclude that it is not a real disorder and influence others accordingly, families of severely affected ADHDers may ignore important symptoms. We certainly could think of the set of symptoms as having to do with genetic makeup and not being a *disorder*. That would still leave us with the serious claim within most of the medical and pediatric community that such a group of symptoms can be dangerous to have and that steps can be taken to lessen the danger.
> But, I amWhether to apply that label is certainly up to the parents, and I have heard of situations (parts of the country, among certain relatives, etc.) wherein I would probably not mention the term either. I would still advocate parents educating *themselves* about ADHD if they are concerned about their child. Then the parents are more empowered to make their own decision based upon input from a variety of sources.
> very careful NOT to label my children as ADD, or compulsive, or
> spirited, or explosive, or any other limiting label with such
> negative connotations, because I do feel that there are a myriad of
> potentially very negative consequences of that kind of labeling.
I doubt that I will have time to respond further until next year. Oops, and then I travel out of state, so it may be several days or more into 2007.
Happy New Year everyone!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-A few general thoughts before I try to find time to respond to
individual posts:-=-
The whole list is about ideas, not people or individuals or
individual posts.
If you want to respond to all the ideas that were presented, that's
fine. There's no obligation (nor even desireability) as far as the
list goes for you to respond to individual posts.
-=-I am assuming that the beliefs and motivations for all of your
responses on this topic are coming from a caring place within
yourselves about families and children. I hope you are considering
that the same might be the motivation for my post-=-
Unschooling.
We need to write what will help people understand unschooling and
relationships between parents and children.
-=-I did not say nor do I assume that such bias (and we all have our
biases) is unreasonable.-=-
It's not a bias. It's a belief, not just a matter of opinion about
something incontrovertible.
To say "unfortunately..." implies that it's unreasonable, or a matter
of ignorance.
-=-What I am concerned about is that affected parents and their
children may be missing out on information and help--help which,
according to research, could save the lives of their children.-=-
There is nothing about unschooling that would be improved by parents
believing that their children's lives are endangered by a lack of
knowledge of ADHD. In the absence of school or school-at-home
pressures, it's not much of an issue. If each child is making
choices and doing things in his own way at his own pace, where will
the problem lie?
Instead of talking to us about studies and the fear tactics of
"experts" or "research," how about just talking about how unschooling
was helped at your house by knowledge of ADHD. If you have no
stories about that, maybe it's too soon to write to the list about it.
-=-We certainly could think of the set of symptoms as having to do
with genetic makeup and not being a *disorder*. That would still
leave us with the serious claim within most of the medical and
pediatric community that such a group of symptoms can be dangerous to
have and that steps can be taken to lessen the danger.
-=-
Like what?
To use "most of the medical and pediatric community" in this forum as
back-up to any argument is a fallacy right off. Most "experts" of
that community or the education community would insist that school is
necessary for safety. They would seriously claim that school lessens
danger. (Vague dangers of all kinds.)
-=-I would still advocate parents educating *themselves* about ADHD
if they are concerned about their child. Then the parents are more
empowered to make their own decision based upon input from a variety
of sources.-=-
No one here discourages parents from learning.
No one here recommends disempowering parents.
No one here recommends parents making their own decisions.
No one here recommends avoiding a variety of sources.
You're attacking and beating a straw horse.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
individual posts:-=-
The whole list is about ideas, not people or individuals or
individual posts.
If you want to respond to all the ideas that were presented, that's
fine. There's no obligation (nor even desireability) as far as the
list goes for you to respond to individual posts.
-=-I am assuming that the beliefs and motivations for all of your
responses on this topic are coming from a caring place within
yourselves about families and children. I hope you are considering
that the same might be the motivation for my post-=-
Unschooling.
We need to write what will help people understand unschooling and
relationships between parents and children.
-=-I did not say nor do I assume that such bias (and we all have our
biases) is unreasonable.-=-
It's not a bias. It's a belief, not just a matter of opinion about
something incontrovertible.
To say "unfortunately..." implies that it's unreasonable, or a matter
of ignorance.
-=-What I am concerned about is that affected parents and their
children may be missing out on information and help--help which,
according to research, could save the lives of their children.-=-
There is nothing about unschooling that would be improved by parents
believing that their children's lives are endangered by a lack of
knowledge of ADHD. In the absence of school or school-at-home
pressures, it's not much of an issue. If each child is making
choices and doing things in his own way at his own pace, where will
the problem lie?
Instead of talking to us about studies and the fear tactics of
"experts" or "research," how about just talking about how unschooling
was helped at your house by knowledge of ADHD. If you have no
stories about that, maybe it's too soon to write to the list about it.
-=-We certainly could think of the set of symptoms as having to do
with genetic makeup and not being a *disorder*. That would still
leave us with the serious claim within most of the medical and
pediatric community that such a group of symptoms can be dangerous to
have and that steps can be taken to lessen the danger.
-=-
Like what?
To use "most of the medical and pediatric community" in this forum as
back-up to any argument is a fallacy right off. Most "experts" of
that community or the education community would insist that school is
necessary for safety. They would seriously claim that school lessens
danger. (Vague dangers of all kinds.)
-=-I would still advocate parents educating *themselves* about ADHD
if they are concerned about their child. Then the parents are more
empowered to make their own decision based upon input from a variety
of sources.-=-
No one here discourages parents from learning.
No one here recommends disempowering parents.
No one here recommends parents making their own decisions.
No one here recommends avoiding a variety of sources.
You're attacking and beating a straw horse.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
riasplace3
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
THAT'S the kind of parenting I'm talking about!
Ria
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>> Let's diagnose theWow, Wow, Wow! I'm going to print this out and hang it on my wall.
> environment, instead, that isn't set up appropriately for children
> with certain kinds of personality traits - that doesn't support the
> child as he/she is, but labels the child's personality as a disorder
> - bad, sick.
THAT'S the kind of parenting I'm talking about!
Ria
Karen Wilcox
[Sandra]
[Kathleen]
The issue, then, is whether the negative connotations of the ADHD label outweigh the potential benefits of using it for a positive end. I am sure there are many here who have recognized this. One reason for my posts is to clarify this point for those who may have been thinking that to research and learn about ADHD (and whether it may apply to one's individual situation) would somehow necessarily be detrimental or in violation of some principle of unschooling.
That perhaps having been accomplished, I freely acknowledge everyone's experiences with the ADHD label being used with negative outcome. As I have indicated, I was already aware of such situations. Hopefully, more people will do likewise to allow for the possibility that positive outcomes may sometimes occur.
I did not mean to offend anyone in saying that I am sure that ADHD is a real disorder. I have several adult friends who apply the term to themselves, and we all recognize and celebrate the "giftedness" of it. Sandra, I admire your ability to be so productive. I'm definitely the analytical type and sometimes wonder how much "paralysis from analysis" may be slowing me down. Even composing posts can be quite a labor for me, so I guess one could say I have "hyper-analytical" disorder. :-) I think that this is one reason that I have so many friends with ADHD-like symptoms. They are drawn to what they see as my being stable and methodical, and I am drawn to their quick wit and energy. :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> it seems better to arrange situations with the child'sYes, I agree that this is important, and all of this is encouraged in order to help those with symptoms consistent with ADHD (except that more should be said about alternatives to PS, about which we also agree).
> interests and preferences and strengths in mind.
[Kathleen]
> Cancer is a disease that can[Sandra]
> kill you that usually can be identified in a lab. ADHD is a bit different,
> so I don't think the analogy is apt.
> Treatments for cancer can be painful, uncomfortable or dangerous, butThe comparison was about the fact that ADHD and Cancer are both labels with negative connotations, and it seems that we all pretty much agree on this. The fact that cancer is dramatically different from ADHD is the very reason that I chose it as an example. It makes my point, which is simply that not all labels with negative connotations are to be avoided solely because they have negative connotations. When we think about it, I think we all pretty much agree on this as well.
> people weigh the benefits against the sought-after outcome.
The issue, then, is whether the negative connotations of the ADHD label outweigh the potential benefits of using it for a positive end. I am sure there are many here who have recognized this. One reason for my posts is to clarify this point for those who may have been thinking that to research and learn about ADHD (and whether it may apply to one's individual situation) would somehow necessarily be detrimental or in violation of some principle of unschooling.
That perhaps having been accomplished, I freely acknowledge everyone's experiences with the ADHD label being used with negative outcome. As I have indicated, I was already aware of such situations. Hopefully, more people will do likewise to allow for the possibility that positive outcomes may sometimes occur.
I did not mean to offend anyone in saying that I am sure that ADHD is a real disorder. I have several adult friends who apply the term to themselves, and we all recognize and celebrate the "giftedness" of it. Sandra, I admire your ability to be so productive. I'm definitely the analytical type and sometimes wonder how much "paralysis from analysis" may be slowing me down. Even composing posts can be quite a labor for me, so I guess one could say I have "hyper-analytical" disorder. :-) I think that this is one reason that I have so many friends with ADHD-like symptoms. They are drawn to what they see as my being stable and methodical, and I am drawn to their quick wit and energy. :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes, I agree that this is important, and all of this is encouraged
in order to help those with symptoms consistent with ADHD...-=-
All of what?
"and all of this is encouraged..." means what?
-=-The comparison was about the fact that ADHD and Cancer are both
labels with negative connotation-=-
One is a label for something people aren't thrilled to discover, but
that can be laid out and looked at physically, or cut out, or
destroyed chemically, or that can kill you.
None of those things apply to ADHD. Parents can only "discover" that
a child is that way if the parent hadn't already been paying
attention to the child since he was born (or earlier--Kirby was very,
very fidgety inside for the whole time; Holly was quite still).
-=-When we think about it, I think we all pretty much agree on this
as well.-=-
Don't speak for others this way, please. It's very irritating. Tell
us what you think, but don't tell us what we think.
-=-One reason for my posts is to clarify this point for those who may
have been thinking that to research and learn about ADHD (and whether
it may apply to one's individual situation) would somehow necessarily
be detrimental or in violation of some principle of unschooling.-=-
People here who have been unschooling for a dozen years or more are
saying they believe from that experience, and from having helped
others for that time, that it is necessarily detrimental to label
children as having a disability. Those with experience are trying to
clarify for you and others that unschooling itself will dissolve the
need for treatment or special methods. Unschooling itself makes it
unnecessary (and detrimental) to seek a diagnosis or to discuss ADHD.
-=-That perhaps having been accomplished, I freely acknowledge
everyone's experiences with the ADHD label being used with negative
outcome. As I have indicated, I was already aware of such situations.-=-
Well, you said "Unfortunately..." when you indicated you knew some
unschoolers thought differently than you do. You wrote:
" One of the things I have learned for sure is that it is a real
disorder.
"Unfortunately, it seems that many in the unschooling community have
such a
backlash against "labels" that they throw the "diagnosis baby" out
with the
bathwater. Cancer is a label too. Shall we deny that anyone has
cancer and not
explore treatment options?"
====================================================
-=-I did not mean to offend anyone in saying that I am sure that ADHD
is a real disorder.-=-
Of course you did. You intended to say (and DID say) that we didn't
know enough to think it was real, but you know it is.
"You suck--no offense" can't be followed up with "I did not mean to
offend." (It can, but it's never convincing, and honesty is valuable
in conversations. Saying "I hadn't thought of it that way" is better
for your soul and everyone's thinking than "Yeah, I knew that." And
you admitted in that post, too, that you expected the post would be
rejected by the moderator.
-=-Even composing posts can be quite a labor for me, so I guess one
could say I have "hyper-analytical" disorder. :-) -=-
The smile doesn't make it sweet or funny. Instead of looking for
disorders, look for joy and happiness.
http://sandradodd.com/joy
You can do that, really, instead of looking at what's wrong and what
needs fixing. If you can BE with your child, be where he is, be
where he's interested, be how he is, instead of seeing him as a
faulty person who needs to change to be where you are, his life will
be better, and yours will be too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in order to help those with symptoms consistent with ADHD...-=-
All of what?
"and all of this is encouraged..." means what?
-=-The comparison was about the fact that ADHD and Cancer are both
labels with negative connotation-=-
One is a label for something people aren't thrilled to discover, but
that can be laid out and looked at physically, or cut out, or
destroyed chemically, or that can kill you.
None of those things apply to ADHD. Parents can only "discover" that
a child is that way if the parent hadn't already been paying
attention to the child since he was born (or earlier--Kirby was very,
very fidgety inside for the whole time; Holly was quite still).
-=-When we think about it, I think we all pretty much agree on this
as well.-=-
Don't speak for others this way, please. It's very irritating. Tell
us what you think, but don't tell us what we think.
-=-One reason for my posts is to clarify this point for those who may
have been thinking that to research and learn about ADHD (and whether
it may apply to one's individual situation) would somehow necessarily
be detrimental or in violation of some principle of unschooling.-=-
People here who have been unschooling for a dozen years or more are
saying they believe from that experience, and from having helped
others for that time, that it is necessarily detrimental to label
children as having a disability. Those with experience are trying to
clarify for you and others that unschooling itself will dissolve the
need for treatment or special methods. Unschooling itself makes it
unnecessary (and detrimental) to seek a diagnosis or to discuss ADHD.
-=-That perhaps having been accomplished, I freely acknowledge
everyone's experiences with the ADHD label being used with negative
outcome. As I have indicated, I was already aware of such situations.-=-
Well, you said "Unfortunately..." when you indicated you knew some
unschoolers thought differently than you do. You wrote:
" One of the things I have learned for sure is that it is a real
disorder.
"Unfortunately, it seems that many in the unschooling community have
such a
backlash against "labels" that they throw the "diagnosis baby" out
with the
bathwater. Cancer is a label too. Shall we deny that anyone has
cancer and not
explore treatment options?"
====================================================
-=-I did not mean to offend anyone in saying that I am sure that ADHD
is a real disorder.-=-
Of course you did. You intended to say (and DID say) that we didn't
know enough to think it was real, but you know it is.
"You suck--no offense" can't be followed up with "I did not mean to
offend." (It can, but it's never convincing, and honesty is valuable
in conversations. Saying "I hadn't thought of it that way" is better
for your soul and everyone's thinking than "Yeah, I knew that." And
you admitted in that post, too, that you expected the post would be
rejected by the moderator.
-=-Even composing posts can be quite a labor for me, so I guess one
could say I have "hyper-analytical" disorder. :-) -=-
The smile doesn't make it sweet or funny. Instead of looking for
disorders, look for joy and happiness.
http://sandradodd.com/joy
You can do that, really, instead of looking at what's wrong and what
needs fixing. If you can BE with your child, be where he is, be
where he's interested, be how he is, instead of seeing him as a
faulty person who needs to change to be where you are, his life will
be better, and yours will be too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>The comparison was about the fact that ADHD and Cancer are both labelswith negative connotations, and it seems that we all >>pretty much agree on
this.<<
Don't agree. The negative connotations regarding ADHD are from others saying
that this person with these traits has something wrong with them. I don't
see negative connotations regarding cancer. It's a physical process that can
kill a person.
ADHD is a label created by people. It was a decision to make a personality
type negative. Is there any reason on earth why a person with these traits
couldn't be described as energetic...quick-thinking...fast-acting...zesty?
Why use the words "deficit" and "disorder"? What are the deficiencies? All I
can think of are the things that would require one to sit still and be quiet
for a long time. School and church come to mind.
>>When we think about it, I think we all pretty much agree on this aswell.<<
I think your communication style would work better if you just talked about
your thoughts and not add what we all do and don't agree with. So far, I
haven't agreed with things you said we all agree with.
>>The issue, then, is whether the negative connotations of the ADHD labeloutweigh the potential benefits of using it for a >>positive end.<<
How about starting with NOT using the label, and seeing if the benefits
outweigh the negative.
>>One reason for my posts is to clarify this point for those who may havebeen thinking that to research and learn about ADHD >>(and whether it may
apply to one's individual situation) would somehow necessarily be
detrimental or in violation of some >>principle of unschooling.<<
Is this what happened to you? I wonder what made you think people felt this
way. I can't imagine someone would not dare plug something into google
because of fear of unschooling principles. Research is a grand exercise for
most of us.
I think it has been pretty clear that the idea of not using labels is so
that anyone, be it the child, the parent, or an outsider, thinks negatively
about a child in any way, or puts them in a box, or makes them feel limited.
That is often what labels do. That is absolutely to be avoided. It is not
good for a child to be thought of as "deficient" or "disordered".
>>to allow for the possibility that positive outcomes may sometimes occur.<<There is more of a chance however that negative outcomes will occur though.
Do we want to take that chance with our children?
Jacki
Nicole Paluszek
-=-We certainly could think of the set of symptoms as
having to do
with genetic makeup and not being a *disorder*. That
would still
leave us with the serious claim within most of the
medical and
pediatric community that such a group of symptoms can
be dangerous to
have and that steps can be taken to lessen the danger.
-=-
Or perhaps you could give some references to real
scientific studies you've read that actually prove
(and not just assume a priori) ADHD exists as a
diagnosible medical disorder? Let alone one that is
"dangerous"? Pardon me.
As far as I know (I could be mistaken ) diagnosis is
done according to DSM-IV which is very widely known to
be hokey and no real medical-scientific studies that
actually prove anything exist.
Nicole
"The creation of something new is not accomplished by the intellect but by the play instinct acting from inner necessity. The creative mind plays with the objects it loves" -Carl Jung
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
having to do
with genetic makeup and not being a *disorder*. That
would still
leave us with the serious claim within most of the
medical and
pediatric community that such a group of symptoms can
be dangerous to
have and that steps can be taken to lessen the danger.
-=-
Or perhaps you could give some references to real
scientific studies you've read that actually prove
(and not just assume a priori) ADHD exists as a
diagnosible medical disorder? Let alone one that is
"dangerous"? Pardon me.
As far as I know (I could be mistaken ) diagnosis is
done according to DSM-IV which is very widely known to
be hokey and no real medical-scientific studies that
actually prove anything exist.
Nicole
"The creation of something new is not accomplished by the intellect but by the play instinct acting from inner necessity. The creative mind plays with the objects it loves" -Carl Jung
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Karen Wilcox
Those who are sincerely curious about the reasons that ADHD might be a real disorder (at least for some) and the type of help that may be available are welcome to email me privately. Really, I am not looking to *prove* that ADHD is a real disorder or to war over it within the group (or privately). Just to provide a "heads up" for concerned parents who may then make their own choices about whether to follow up with more research.
Also, note that it is not necessary to have any particular subset of the symptoms to be considered by the medical community (rightly or wrongly) to have ADHD, just a certain minimum number of the symptoms, along with other parameters, suffices.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Also, note that it is not necessary to have any particular subset of the symptoms to be considered by the medical community (rightly or wrongly) to have ADHD, just a certain minimum number of the symptoms, along with other parameters, suffices.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Those who are sincerely curious about the reasons that ADHD might
be a real disorder (at least for some) and the type of help that may
be available are welcome to email me privately.-=-
They would have to walk right by google.com to do that.
I don't think anyone could have found this list without being aware
of the vastness of the internet, and I'd bet big bucks that everyone
here knows about libraries, and doctors, and child psychologists.
Some ARE doctors and child psychologists.
This isn't the first time someone has treated unschoolers on this
list or others like it of being isolated and ignorant. It would be
cool if it were the last time.
-=-Just to provide a "heads up" for concerned parents who may then
make their own choices about whether to follow up with more research.-=-
EEEEEEK!
Without someone coming here and giving people a heads up, they would
have had no choices about whether to follow up with more research!?
Unschooling is all about knowing what's out there and making choices
and following up.
-=-Also, note that it is not necessary to have any particular subset
of the symptoms to be considered by the medical community (rightly or
wrongly) to have ADHD-=-
Uh...
Stop now. Seriously.
Just stop.
Or if you want to continue, tell the list, Karen, how long you've
unschooled and how many kids you have and what led you to have your
child "diagnosed" with this life-threatening disorder. Talk about
your own experiences now, or don't talk anymore.
Sandra, the Sole Owner of the List who's been pretty patient
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be a real disorder (at least for some) and the type of help that may
be available are welcome to email me privately.-=-
They would have to walk right by google.com to do that.
I don't think anyone could have found this list without being aware
of the vastness of the internet, and I'd bet big bucks that everyone
here knows about libraries, and doctors, and child psychologists.
Some ARE doctors and child psychologists.
This isn't the first time someone has treated unschoolers on this
list or others like it of being isolated and ignorant. It would be
cool if it were the last time.
-=-Just to provide a "heads up" for concerned parents who may then
make their own choices about whether to follow up with more research.-=-
EEEEEEK!
Without someone coming here and giving people a heads up, they would
have had no choices about whether to follow up with more research!?
Unschooling is all about knowing what's out there and making choices
and following up.
-=-Also, note that it is not necessary to have any particular subset
of the symptoms to be considered by the medical community (rightly or
wrongly) to have ADHD-=-
Uh...
Stop now. Seriously.
Just stop.
Or if you want to continue, tell the list, Karen, how long you've
unschooled and how many kids you have and what led you to have your
child "diagnosed" with this life-threatening disorder. Talk about
your own experiences now, or don't talk anymore.
Sandra, the Sole Owner of the List who's been pretty patient
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<> Whenever i try to explain something to him or answer a question
he
with her question.
Here is my thought, to foster connection with your ds. Listen more. Ask
him brief questions that spring from whatever the story is that he is
telling you so that he feels really listened to. Jayn often responds
well to "What happened then?".
Sometimes it is hard to have to hear a long and rambling story -
sometimes it is hard when there is repetition and pauses while words
are sought for. But it is worth it to give the gift of attentive
listening and save your story for later.
I have noticed that Jayn (7) often stops listening. If I keep talking
at her at this time, regardless of how worthy or important my
information may seem to me, the result is less connection and her eyes
glazing over. So I might as well save my breath, and not foster this as
a habit.
In terms of answering questions, the simplest answer first and
then "Does that help?" as the invitation to ask more. Reminds me of a
joke: The kid asked "where did I come from?" and got the whole story of
the birds and the bees. He listened patiently until the end then
said, "Johnny next door comes from Cleveland".
Jayn interrupts a lot too - just boils and bubbles over with enthusiasm
for her new idea or what just happened. I truly just let it go and save
the "I need you to hear me now" (my hand on her shoulder) for really
super important urgent things - sorry can't think of an example - and
again brevity!
Oh and another idea - Jayn listens with great fascination when the
story begins "when you were a baby..." or "when I was little...."
Robyn L. Coburn
he
> cuts me off. I try to limit the words in my sentences to 10 or less ifIn all this ADHD stuff, Heather has been left a bit out in the cold
> i can.
> .....> I really wish to have him hear me and connect. >>>
with her question.
Here is my thought, to foster connection with your ds. Listen more. Ask
him brief questions that spring from whatever the story is that he is
telling you so that he feels really listened to. Jayn often responds
well to "What happened then?".
Sometimes it is hard to have to hear a long and rambling story -
sometimes it is hard when there is repetition and pauses while words
are sought for. But it is worth it to give the gift of attentive
listening and save your story for later.
I have noticed that Jayn (7) often stops listening. If I keep talking
at her at this time, regardless of how worthy or important my
information may seem to me, the result is less connection and her eyes
glazing over. So I might as well save my breath, and not foster this as
a habit.
In terms of answering questions, the simplest answer first and
then "Does that help?" as the invitation to ask more. Reminds me of a
joke: The kid asked "where did I come from?" and got the whole story of
the birds and the bees. He listened patiently until the end then
said, "Johnny next door comes from Cleveland".
Jayn interrupts a lot too - just boils and bubbles over with enthusiasm
for her new idea or what just happened. I truly just let it go and save
the "I need you to hear me now" (my hand on her shoulder) for really
super important urgent things - sorry can't think of an example - and
again brevity!
Oh and another idea - Jayn listens with great fascination when the
story begins "when you were a baby..." or "when I was little...."
Robyn L. Coburn
Paula Sjogerman
On Dec 31, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
some kids nurse forever and some get on and right off in a couple
minutes? Both get nutrition. It might not always be this way - his
capacity to hear longer explanations might grow with time.
Paula
> <<<<> Whenever i try to explain something to him or answer aAnd also, that might be all he needs to hear right now. You know how
> question
> he
>> cuts me off. I try to limit the words in my sentences to 10 or
>> less if
>> i can.
>> .....> I really wish to have him hear me and connect. >>>
>
some kids nurse forever and some get on and right off in a couple
minutes? Both get nutrition. It might not always be this way - his
capacity to hear longer explanations might grow with time.
Paula
Karen Wilcox
> Talk about...
> your own experiences now, or don't talk anymore.
> They would have to walk right by google.com to do that.My experience has been that:
Most of the reasons that ADHD seems to be real occurred to me only after much research in many sources, and little by little. So I would be surprised if even an initial few *hours* of research online would dig them up.
> Well, you said "Unfortunately..." when you indicated you knew someunschoolers thought differently than you do
The reason I used the term "unfortunately" was with reference to the potential negative effects for some families who may conclude that ADHD is not real due to an atmosphere of censorship about ADHD, not because of any opinion about when such labels may be appropriate.
> And you admitted in that post, too, that you expected the post would beI anticipated rejection because of my experience that at least one other moderator would abide no defense of why ADHD might be real, not due to any alleged intention to offend. In other words, I anticipated rejection due to disagreement, not offense.
> rejected by the moderator.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
> ADHD is a label created by people. It was a decision to make awith these traits couldn't be described as energetic...quick-
>personality type negative. Is there any reason on earth why a >person
>thinking...fast-acting...zesty?My son is definitely a child who would be labeled ADHD if he had more
> Why use the words "deficit" and "disorder"? What are the
>deficiencies? All I can think of are the things that would require
>one to sit still and be quiet for a long time. School and church
>come to mind.
mainstream parents. When he was younger, the energy level was the
thing that was most noticeable. Because we dont go to "school and
church" its not necessary for him to sit still, or pay attention to
things he isnt interested in, so...not a problem.
However, i have noticed lately that the "inattention" part of the
label has started to become really noticeable. For example, this past
Thanksgiving, i had made Seamus a plate of food, and set it down in
front of the chair that was by the window. I was going to sit right
next to him, and his aunt was right across the table. So far, neither
of us had a plate of food. I told Seamus that i had his food at his
place, if he wanted to sit down, he comes over stands right next to me
in front of his place, and says "Where is it??? Where am i supposed to
sit? Where's my food??" His plate was the only plate on the table. It
was really obvious to everyone but him where to sit. We all started
laughing a bit because if someone tells you "You're foods at the table
where you'll be sitting" and there is only one plate of food at the
table, and the seat is the one right next to your mother, the
assumption can be made that, yep thats your spot. But he didnt make
that connection, and seemed bewildered that I would think he would.
Another situation...I was on the computer, wanted to quote a passage
from a book in a post i was writing, and asked Seamus to go get a book
from the living room for me. Before i could even tell him what book or
where it was at, he took off to get it. I called him back, told him
very specifically "Bring me the book called Attaching In Adoption,
with the red cover, that is on the long white couch [as opposed to the
loveseat]" By the time he walked the few feet down the hall way, he
was saying "What am i looking for? Whats it called? Where's it at???"
If he is looking for something, and it is literally right in front of
him, he can't see it. He'll yell at me "Where is it?? I thought you
said it was on the bed???" This is especially true if he actually has
to move something aside (his coat is under another coat or
something)...He will be on his way to go do something (take a dish to
the sink)totally forget what he was doing, and go do something else.
This kind of stuff happens every day. Multiple times a day. My son
told him that sometimes he will want to remember his online friends'
names, but forgets the name before he has a chance to write it down.
So i think its something he thinks about too.
None of this has anything to do with school, or sitting down, or being
quiet. As his energy level has decreased over the years and he has
more control over his body, and is less likely to rage over seemingly
simple things I've started to notice his forgetfullness, his
difficulty in finding items, and also his lack of coordination (he was
walking like Capt. Jack Sparrow in a store the other day, glass items
all around! eek!)
While right now, none of this impacts his life in an overly negative
way (I help him find things, try not to give him too many directions
at once, expect that i will have to help, and stay near him if we are
walking near fragile stuff), i do wonder how it will impact his life
in the future if it doesnt improve. Will he be ok driving a car, or
not "see" that the light has turned red or another car is coming? Will
he have to have multiple copies of his keys since he will likely lose
them all the time? Will he be like me, and drop out of college
multiple times, or put off paying bills until they are late (even
though you have the money, and the bill sitting right there, and you
KNOW it needs to be paid)? Will he not put clean laundry away until
its all over the floor and needs to be rewashed?
I think there must be a way to embrace your child's personality, and
not foist negative labels on them, while also acknowledging that a
certain personality type doesnt always fit in to the way we currently
live our lives. I think that for most parents, a diagnosis of ADHD
quickly leads to medicating the "disorder", and i am doubtful that one
can take a medication for a personality "deficit" and not have it
change other aspects of your personality (ones you DONT want to
change!)
Any experience with kids who have this type of personality, and how
they adjust as adults? Is there a way to help a child improve their
memory? Ideas for improving coordination?
Katherine
queenjane555
> Also, note that it is not necessary to have any particular subsetI would just caution not to put too much faith into the psychiatric
>of the symptoms to be considered by the medical community (rightly
>or wrongly) to have ADHD, just a certain minimum number of the
>symptoms, along with other parameters, suffices.
community. Their advice changes all the time.
Look at how many "symptoms" of ADHD are the same as childhood onset
bipolar disorder...indeed, many kids who are bipolar (although, again,
there is controversy there as well)are misdiagnosed, put on stimulants
for ADHD, which can cause bipolar kids to have psychotic episodes, and
almost always makes them worse. I'm on alot of adoption-related lists,
and you wouldnt believe the alphabet-soup of labels those kids get.
Some of it might be necessary, as some kids do have serious issues as
a result of early neglect/abuse not to mention prenatal alcohol and
drug exposure. And usually you need that diagnosis to access special
services in school or specialized therapy.
I can't see how, though, in an unschooling home that practices mindful
parenting, that it is necessary to have that official label. You are
going to have to deal with your child as he or she is, right now,
whether a doctor proclaims they have a certain disorder or not.
Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=-He will be on his way to go do something (take a dish to
the sink)totally forget what he was doing, and go do something else.-=-
I do that.
-=-he didnt make
that connection, and seemed bewildered that I would think he would. -=-
My half brother is a fetal alcohol syndrome case and he's that way.
It's not an ADHD type of thing. It's an inability to synthesize
information. Two clues don't necessarily hook up for him. That's
not going to change; people needed to stop expecting him to change.
He drives fine.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the sink)totally forget what he was doing, and go do something else.-=-
I do that.
-=-he didnt make
that connection, and seemed bewildered that I would think he would. -=-
My half brother is a fetal alcohol syndrome case and he's that way.
It's not an ADHD type of thing. It's an inability to synthesize
information. Two clues don't necessarily hook up for him. That's
not going to change; people needed to stop expecting him to change.
He drives fine.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
My experience has been that:
Most of the reasons that ADHD seems to be real occurred to me only
after much research in many sources, and little by little. So I would
be surprised if even an initial few *hours* of research online would
dig them up.-=-
That's your experience with research.
I want your unschooling experiences, and your mothering experiences.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My experience has been that:
Most of the reasons that ADHD seems to be real occurred to me only
after much research in many sources, and little by little. So I would
be surprised if even an initial few *hours* of research online would
dig them up.-=-
That's your experience with research.
I want your unschooling experiences, and your mothering experiences.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
> My half brother is a fetal alcohol syndrome case and he's that way.But in the case of FAS or FAE, its organic brain damage(and pretty
>It's not an ADHD type of thing. It's an inability to synthesize
> information. Two clues don't necessarily hook up for him. That's
> not going to change; people needed to stop expecting him to change.
severe at that...as my adoption social worker said "Crack is better
than alcohol" when it comes to prenatal exposure.) Its permanent. Kids
with FAS dont understand cause and effect, and generally need to
relearn the same things over and over again, they don't retain the
information. Its clearly a disability that affects functioning. Many
kids with FAS do not become fully fuctional, independant adults.
For my son, it seems more about not "seeing" things that are right in
front of him, that i can clearly see. I *do* think its part of
the "ADHD-type behaviors" in that perhaps his brain is moving so fast,
that he can't slow down enough to take in the "big picture". I'm
hopeful that as he matures, he will gain more control over that part
of his brain. Or find useful tools to help him remember or find stuff.
Also its possible that the things that i'm expecting him to "see" just
arent that important enough to him to look for. Which is ok too.
Katherine