Re: [AlwaysLearning] Unschooling from school
Bill Ellis
> ... . Pat Farenga chimes in with his line "I defineBE:
> unschooling as allowing children as much freedom to explore the world
> as you
> can comfortably bear." Which is great in that it increases the number
> of
> unschoolers by so many times that it becomes hard to distinguish
> unschoolers
> from anyone else. ...
This is the most telling statement I've seen in a homeschool list.
Unschooling is not a matter of where its done. It is a matter of what
is done. It is a mindset, not a way of teaching. I went to school in
a small New England town (100 K-12 students). But my learning was in
the home, on the road, farming, fishing and hunting, and in the
library. I enjoyed school because I liked being on the basketball and
ski teams, in the school dramas, and at the school dances. But I read
Will Durants "The Story of Philosophy" in the library as a high school
freshman and went on with other books of this ilk until Einstein and
Infeld's "The Theory of Relativity' turned me to science. The family
talked about these books at the dinning room table. The family also
took us to museums, fairs, art shows, and just traveling. In Pat's
words they were " allowing children as much freedom to explore the
world as [we and they could] comfortably bear."
I was lucky in being able to give my schooled children even more
learning opportunities including camping trips across the vast American
continent and various trips around Europe including Turkey, and the
Middle East. All of these were planned for months by the children with
stops at the places the wanted (mostly -- I had a thing on Cathederals
that they overcame on occassion).
This may explain why I am sometimes a bit short with paranoid
homeschoolers who think there is only one way to homeschool and
denigrate andy other options to public schooling. "Unschooling" gives
the learner the freedom to choose ANTHING that s/he wants. So it's
not "hard to distinguish unschoolers from anyone else" -- the mindset
set is rare and sets them apart -- there aren't many of them.
IMHO
Bill Ellis
Schuyler
The problem with what you are saying is that unschooling is about not being
in school. It is a homeschooling approach. So, while it may have felt like
you approached your own education as an unschooler, because it had to work
around and within the framework of a schooled life, it wasn't unschooling.
The problem with what Pat Farenga stated is using the phrase "can
comfortably bear" he is, more than anything else, allowing an individual to
rest on their laurels. He is giving a stamp of approval to people who say I
am not comfortable trusting that learning happens, so I pick and choose
curriculum to use at home. He is giving the stamp of approval to parents who
say I am not comfortable living a life where my child doesn't master the
skill of reading before the age of 9 and so we do worksheets. He is giving
the stamp of approval to someone who says they are unschooling their
children who are still in school. Instead of arguing that unschooling is a
philosophy that helps you to stretch your arms wide and embrace the whole
world as learning, he is shrinking it to fit any parent's choices.
You didn't unschool your children. You may have given them great
opportunities by traveling and by exploring the world with them, but you
didn't unschool them. Every day you put them in school you told them that
they needed to have someone else tell them what was important to understand
the world. And while they may have had the most amazing of vacations and
while they may have had a great time in Turkey, they still spent far more
time in school.
I don't know why you need to think you were unschooled or that you
unschooled your children. Unschooling is a pretty specific subset of
homeschooling. You don't gain anything by being called an unschooler except
whatever it is that you get inside. If I put my kids in school, even if it
as their behest, I am no longer unschooling, I am schooling them. Even if
they take school on their own terms, they are choosing that life over an
unschooled life. And while I love being an unschooling family, it isn't more
essential that I be able to define myself as such than that Simon and
Linnaea get to live the lives they want.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
in school. It is a homeschooling approach. So, while it may have felt like
you approached your own education as an unschooler, because it had to work
around and within the framework of a schooled life, it wasn't unschooling.
The problem with what Pat Farenga stated is using the phrase "can
comfortably bear" he is, more than anything else, allowing an individual to
rest on their laurels. He is giving a stamp of approval to people who say I
am not comfortable trusting that learning happens, so I pick and choose
curriculum to use at home. He is giving the stamp of approval to parents who
say I am not comfortable living a life where my child doesn't master the
skill of reading before the age of 9 and so we do worksheets. He is giving
the stamp of approval to someone who says they are unschooling their
children who are still in school. Instead of arguing that unschooling is a
philosophy that helps you to stretch your arms wide and embrace the whole
world as learning, he is shrinking it to fit any parent's choices.
You didn't unschool your children. You may have given them great
opportunities by traveling and by exploring the world with them, but you
didn't unschool them. Every day you put them in school you told them that
they needed to have someone else tell them what was important to understand
the world. And while they may have had the most amazing of vacations and
while they may have had a great time in Turkey, they still spent far more
time in school.
I don't know why you need to think you were unschooled or that you
unschooled your children. Unschooling is a pretty specific subset of
homeschooling. You don't gain anything by being called an unschooler except
whatever it is that you get inside. If I put my kids in school, even if it
as their behest, I am no longer unschooling, I am schooling them. Even if
they take school on their own terms, they are choosing that life over an
unschooled life. And while I love being an unschooling family, it isn't more
essential that I be able to define myself as such than that Simon and
Linnaea get to live the lives they want.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Ellis" <tranet@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 1970 2:36 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Unschooling from school
>
>> ... . Pat Farenga chimes in with his line "I define
>> unschooling as allowing children as much freedom to explore the world
>> as you
>> can comfortably bear." Which is great in that it increases the number
>> of
>> unschoolers by so many times that it becomes hard to distinguish
>> unschoolers
>> from anyone else. ...
>
> BE:
> This is the most telling statement I've seen in a homeschool list.
> Unschooling is not a matter of where its done. It is a matter of what
> is done. It is a mindset, not a way of teaching. I went to school in
> a small New England town (100 K-12 students). But my learning was in
> the home, on the road, farming, fishing and hunting, and in the
> library. I enjoyed school because I liked being on the basketball and
> ski teams, in the school dramas, and at the school dances. But I read
> Will Durants "The Story of Philosophy" in the library as a high school
> freshman and went on with other books of this ilk until Einstein and
> Infeld's "The Theory of Relativity' turned me to science. The family
> talked about these books at the dinning room table. The family also
> took us to museums, fairs, art shows, and just traveling. In Pat's
> words they were " allowing children as much freedom to explore the
> world as [we and they could] comfortably bear."
>
> I was lucky in being able to give my schooled children even more
> learning opportunities including camping trips across the vast American
> continent and various trips around Europe including Turkey, and the
> Middle East. All of these were planned for months by the children with
> stops at the places the wanted (mostly -- I had a thing on Cathederals
> that they overcame on occassion).
>
> This may explain why I am sometimes a bit short with paranoid
> homeschoolers who think there is only one way to homeschool and
> denigrate andy other options to public schooling. "Unschooling" gives
> the learner the freedom to choose ANTHING that s/he wants. So it's
> not "hard to distinguish unschoolers from anyone else" -- the mindset
> set is rare and sets them apart -- there aren't many of them.
>
> IMHO
> Bill Ellis
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-This is the most telling statement I've seen in a homeschool list.
Unschooling is not a matter of where its done. It is a matter of what
is done. It is a mindset, not a way of teaching.-=-
It's not a way of teaching, that's true. But it's not just "whatever.'
Pat Farenga inherited John Holt's mantle. It could never really fit
him, because he didn't have Holt's experiences or writing abilities.
Then Pat's wife couldn't comfortably unschool. Marrying someone who
works in a place that sells books about unschooling isn't the same as
really wanting to learn about how learning works on one's own. They
also have the added difficulty of living in that high-pressure
environment (Boston, in their case) where pre-school is the norm, and
both parents employeed is standard. Rather than say "I don't know,
we didn't really unschool," he redefined unschooling to match what
they did. All three of their children went to school some of the
time, and some of the time were back home. I don't know the details
of that, but I first read it in The Old Schoolhouse Magazine. He
wasn't admitting it when he spoke at conferences, as far as I knew.
-=-This may explain why I am sometimes a bit short with paranoid
homeschoolers who think there is only one way to homeschool and
denigrate andy other options to public schooling.-=-
You can be all the short you want to be. If you're not unschooling,
if you don't really understand unschooling and you haven't done it,
then your opinion is small in an unschooling forum. You don't have
the experience to really help others understand unschooling if you
don't understand it and haven't done it yourself. I don't even go
into Toyota repair discussions because I've never even owned a
Toyota, let alone repaired one.
-=-So it's
not "hard to distinguish unschoolers from anyone else" -- the mindset
set is rare and sets them apart -- there aren't many of them.-=-
It doesn't matter if there are many of them, but none of them are
found in public schools. Once they opt to go to school, they're
enrolled in school and NOT learning in the absence of school. Once
they go to school-at-home (a formal curriculum), they're not
unschooling anymore.
If someone whose kids went to school disagrees with me about what
unschooling is, and I'm writing as someone whose children never did
go to school (the youngest is 15, so she has time to go if she wants
to, at which point our family's unschooling would be something we
did, not something we're doing), then it's up to each reader to
decide for him- or herself which of us to regard as more experienced.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Unschooling is not a matter of where its done. It is a matter of what
is done. It is a mindset, not a way of teaching.-=-
It's not a way of teaching, that's true. But it's not just "whatever.'
Pat Farenga inherited John Holt's mantle. It could never really fit
him, because he didn't have Holt's experiences or writing abilities.
Then Pat's wife couldn't comfortably unschool. Marrying someone who
works in a place that sells books about unschooling isn't the same as
really wanting to learn about how learning works on one's own. They
also have the added difficulty of living in that high-pressure
environment (Boston, in their case) where pre-school is the norm, and
both parents employeed is standard. Rather than say "I don't know,
we didn't really unschool," he redefined unschooling to match what
they did. All three of their children went to school some of the
time, and some of the time were back home. I don't know the details
of that, but I first read it in The Old Schoolhouse Magazine. He
wasn't admitting it when he spoke at conferences, as far as I knew.
-=-This may explain why I am sometimes a bit short with paranoid
homeschoolers who think there is only one way to homeschool and
denigrate andy other options to public schooling.-=-
You can be all the short you want to be. If you're not unschooling,
if you don't really understand unschooling and you haven't done it,
then your opinion is small in an unschooling forum. You don't have
the experience to really help others understand unschooling if you
don't understand it and haven't done it yourself. I don't even go
into Toyota repair discussions because I've never even owned a
Toyota, let alone repaired one.
-=-So it's
not "hard to distinguish unschoolers from anyone else" -- the mindset
set is rare and sets them apart -- there aren't many of them.-=-
It doesn't matter if there are many of them, but none of them are
found in public schools. Once they opt to go to school, they're
enrolled in school and NOT learning in the absence of school. Once
they go to school-at-home (a formal curriculum), they're not
unschooling anymore.
If someone whose kids went to school disagrees with me about what
unschooling is, and I'm writing as someone whose children never did
go to school (the youngest is 15, so she has time to go if she wants
to, at which point our family's unschooling would be something we
did, not something we're doing), then it's up to each reader to
decide for him- or herself which of us to regard as more experienced.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 22, 2006, at 9:00 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
school for 2 years (k/1) and both then unschooled after that. Rosie
never went to school. When they were being schooled, we did what Bill
wants to include as "unschooling," but I would describe as
"enrichment." Also, Roya went to a relatively unconventional school
that had no textbooks or tests or grades, and Roxana was in an even
more experimental program that allowed tremendous freedom of choice.
So, they were perhaps "less schooled" than many schooled kids, but it
wasn't unschooling. Schooling can vary a lot - from "free schools" to
"back-to-basics fundamental schools," but even the free schools are
not the same as unschooling.
It does get a little tricky deciding, as the kids grow up, when
"unschooling" stops and "schooling" begins, if they use the local
community college for tap dancing, voice, acting, guitar, piano, or
ballet lessons, as my kids have all done. I definitely still consider
my 15 yo to be an unschooler, she is not taking those classes as part
of a "college program of study," but in the exact same way that she
takes karate classes at a karate studio or her friend takes dance at
a dance studio.
It gets more tricky when they decide to also add what would be
considered college "academic" courses to what they take at the
community college. If Rosie signs up for an English class, is she
suddenly no longer unschooling? Why is that different than taking a
dance or karate class? She's a true unschooler and does not think of
"writing" as any different than art or sports. I think she'll still
be unschooling.
They are "college students" and not "unschooling" anymore, though,
once they are more conventionally "doing college," as Roxana and Roya
are both doing, these days. They are not choosing to take college
classes because they want to dance or throw pottery or write poetry,
but because they are fulfilling requirements for earning a degree.
Yes, they are choosy and try to take courses that interest them. Yes,
they are different than other students in that they LOVE learning and
making all those connections between what is taught in their classes
to the other knowledge they already have picked up. Yes, they are
different than most other college students in some undefinable ways -
primarily because they aren't viewing the educational system through
the veil of resentment and resistance and passivity that so many
college students wear.
Even though my older kids are no longer "unschooling," I think they
will always consider themselves to be "unschoolers" - they are
adamant about that - they feel like unschooling has made them
different than other young adults and they still self-identify as
unschoolers. They believe that the crux of unschooling is that
learning is life, that all learning counts, that learning in a
classroom is not a particularly good way to learn and most definitely
not where most significant learning occurs. They believe that
compulsory education is an oxymoron - that nobody CAN be forced to
learn anything (Can they be coerced into memorizing and
regurgitating? Yes. But, real learning? No.). They do not confuse
what they sometimes do to earn grades in their college classes with
"real learning."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If someone whose kids went to school disagrees with me about whatRoya (22) was schooled for five years (k-4) and Roxana (19) went to
> unschooling is, and I'm writing as someone whose children never did
> go to school (the youngest is 15, so she has time to go if she wants
> to, at which point our family's unschooling would be something we
> did, not something we're doing), then it's up to each reader to
> decide for him- or herself which of us to regard as more experienced.
school for 2 years (k/1) and both then unschooled after that. Rosie
never went to school. When they were being schooled, we did what Bill
wants to include as "unschooling," but I would describe as
"enrichment." Also, Roya went to a relatively unconventional school
that had no textbooks or tests or grades, and Roxana was in an even
more experimental program that allowed tremendous freedom of choice.
So, they were perhaps "less schooled" than many schooled kids, but it
wasn't unschooling. Schooling can vary a lot - from "free schools" to
"back-to-basics fundamental schools," but even the free schools are
not the same as unschooling.
It does get a little tricky deciding, as the kids grow up, when
"unschooling" stops and "schooling" begins, if they use the local
community college for tap dancing, voice, acting, guitar, piano, or
ballet lessons, as my kids have all done. I definitely still consider
my 15 yo to be an unschooler, she is not taking those classes as part
of a "college program of study," but in the exact same way that she
takes karate classes at a karate studio or her friend takes dance at
a dance studio.
It gets more tricky when they decide to also add what would be
considered college "academic" courses to what they take at the
community college. If Rosie signs up for an English class, is she
suddenly no longer unschooling? Why is that different than taking a
dance or karate class? She's a true unschooler and does not think of
"writing" as any different than art or sports. I think she'll still
be unschooling.
They are "college students" and not "unschooling" anymore, though,
once they are more conventionally "doing college," as Roxana and Roya
are both doing, these days. They are not choosing to take college
classes because they want to dance or throw pottery or write poetry,
but because they are fulfilling requirements for earning a degree.
Yes, they are choosy and try to take courses that interest them. Yes,
they are different than other students in that they LOVE learning and
making all those connections between what is taught in their classes
to the other knowledge they already have picked up. Yes, they are
different than most other college students in some undefinable ways -
primarily because they aren't viewing the educational system through
the veil of resentment and resistance and passivity that so many
college students wear.
Even though my older kids are no longer "unschooling," I think they
will always consider themselves to be "unschoolers" - they are
adamant about that - they feel like unschooling has made them
different than other young adults and they still self-identify as
unschoolers. They believe that the crux of unschooling is that
learning is life, that all learning counts, that learning in a
classroom is not a particularly good way to learn and most definitely
not where most significant learning occurs. They believe that
compulsory education is an oxymoron - that nobody CAN be forced to
learn anything (Can they be coerced into memorizing and
regurgitating? Yes. But, real learning? No.). They do not confuse
what they sometimes do to earn grades in their college classes with
"real learning."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-They are not choosing to take college
classes because they want to dance or throw pottery or write poetry,
but because they are fulfilling requirements for earning a degree.
Yes, they are choosy and try to take courses that interest them. Yes,
they are different than other students in that they LOVE learning and
making all those connections between what is taught in their classes
to the other knowledge they already have picked up.-=-
When I was in college, after 11 years of public school (no
kindergarten, and I left a year early), I took classes because I
wanted to throw pottery and play recorder. I took lots of classes
that I knew at the time wouldn't contribute to my getting a degree
any faster. One on decoding (a seminar given by a former army
intelligence guy), one on English and American folksong (which I knew
as much about as the professor, but that was part of the point of the
seminar).
I loved learning and started making all KINDS of connections between
what I'd learned in one class and another and in stoner conversations
in high school and in movies and song lyrics. I LOVED being at the
university for the opportunity to meet people from other places, from
other social strata (I grew up in a poor town in northern New
Mexico), who had done and seen things never available to me in any
way when I was growing up.
None of that made me an unschooler. It made me someone who was
curious and creative and loved learning and didn't wait to be
spoonfed. But I was schooled. And I was paying for more school, so
that I could go out and be a teacher and try to make schools better.
School was my life. I knew school could be more fun. I was at the
university paying to sit in a chair and read school reformers and
take notes and take tests and write papers on how that kind of school
wasn't the best way to learn.
I had mined 4-H and girl scouts and church for learning. I was going
to two churches at the same time for a few years--9:30 at the
Catholic Church doing guitar mass, and then over to my real church
for 11:00 service. I was fifteen when I started asking questions
about religion and the Bible that the minister and priest had never
considered and couldn't answer.
That didn't make me an unschooler. That made me a seeker of wisdom,
but I was asking priests and ministers.
My kids were unschooled. It was different.
-=-They do not confuse
what they sometimes do to earn grades in their college classes with
"real learning."-=-
That is a great big thing, about Pam's girls.
They have a deep, deep confidence.
My kids have that too.
I liked outside validation and answers from experts.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
classes because they want to dance or throw pottery or write poetry,
but because they are fulfilling requirements for earning a degree.
Yes, they are choosy and try to take courses that interest them. Yes,
they are different than other students in that they LOVE learning and
making all those connections between what is taught in their classes
to the other knowledge they already have picked up.-=-
When I was in college, after 11 years of public school (no
kindergarten, and I left a year early), I took classes because I
wanted to throw pottery and play recorder. I took lots of classes
that I knew at the time wouldn't contribute to my getting a degree
any faster. One on decoding (a seminar given by a former army
intelligence guy), one on English and American folksong (which I knew
as much about as the professor, but that was part of the point of the
seminar).
I loved learning and started making all KINDS of connections between
what I'd learned in one class and another and in stoner conversations
in high school and in movies and song lyrics. I LOVED being at the
university for the opportunity to meet people from other places, from
other social strata (I grew up in a poor town in northern New
Mexico), who had done and seen things never available to me in any
way when I was growing up.
None of that made me an unschooler. It made me someone who was
curious and creative and loved learning and didn't wait to be
spoonfed. But I was schooled. And I was paying for more school, so
that I could go out and be a teacher and try to make schools better.
School was my life. I knew school could be more fun. I was at the
university paying to sit in a chair and read school reformers and
take notes and take tests and write papers on how that kind of school
wasn't the best way to learn.
I had mined 4-H and girl scouts and church for learning. I was going
to two churches at the same time for a few years--9:30 at the
Catholic Church doing guitar mass, and then over to my real church
for 11:00 service. I was fifteen when I started asking questions
about religion and the Bible that the minister and priest had never
considered and couldn't answer.
That didn't make me an unschooler. That made me a seeker of wisdom,
but I was asking priests and ministers.
My kids were unschooled. It was different.
-=-They do not confuse
what they sometimes do to earn grades in their college classes with
"real learning."-=-
That is a great big thing, about Pam's girls.
They have a deep, deep confidence.
My kids have that too.
I liked outside validation and answers from experts.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 22, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
number of college courses even though the course isn't required as
part of their program. I don't want to leave the impression that they
only take classes that are required to earn a degree.
So, anyway, I wasn't saying that it IS unschooling when college
students take courses just because they want to and not for the
purpose of earning their degree. What I was saying was that Roya and
Roxana ceased to be unschooling when they started taking courses in
order to fulfill college requirements. The essence of schooling is
that someone else determines what the student must "learn," and then
tells them when they've learned enough to graduate. As soon as Roya
and Roxana were part of that kind of system, then I wouldn't say they
were unschooling.
But, if you ask them, they will still say they are unschoolers.
They'll say they can never be anything else. They've got something in
their heads about what they mean by this and it is hard for me to
articulate. They will NEVER see the world in the same way that people
who were schooled see it. The unschooling attitude about life and
learning is an integral part of themselves, not something they
figured out (like we did). They lived it and they ARE it, in some way
that is permanent.
Aha - it is like the difference, in Spanish, between "estar" and
"ser." We say, "You are an unschooler when you're school-age and not
being schooled." We're using "estar" - "Tu estas una unschooler." But
they are saying, "I AM an unschooler now and forever." "Yo SOY una
unschooler."
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-They are not choosing to take collegeI need to clarify - Roya and Roxana both STILL choose to enroll in a
> classes because they want to dance or throw pottery or write poetry,
> but because they are fulfilling requirements for earning a degree.
> Yes, they are choosy and try to take courses that interest them. Yes,
> they are different than other students in that they LOVE learning and
> making all those connections between what is taught in their classes
> to the other knowledge they already have picked up.-=-
>
> When I was in college, after 11 years of public school (no
> kindergarten, and I left a year early), I took classes because I
> wanted to throw pottery and play recorder. I took lots of classes
> that I knew at the time wouldn't contribute to my getting a degree
> any faster.
number of college courses even though the course isn't required as
part of their program. I don't want to leave the impression that they
only take classes that are required to earn a degree.
So, anyway, I wasn't saying that it IS unschooling when college
students take courses just because they want to and not for the
purpose of earning their degree. What I was saying was that Roya and
Roxana ceased to be unschooling when they started taking courses in
order to fulfill college requirements. The essence of schooling is
that someone else determines what the student must "learn," and then
tells them when they've learned enough to graduate. As soon as Roya
and Roxana were part of that kind of system, then I wouldn't say they
were unschooling.
But, if you ask them, they will still say they are unschoolers.
They'll say they can never be anything else. They've got something in
their heads about what they mean by this and it is hard for me to
articulate. They will NEVER see the world in the same way that people
who were schooled see it. The unschooling attitude about life and
learning is an integral part of themselves, not something they
figured out (like we did). They lived it and they ARE it, in some way
that is permanent.
Aha - it is like the difference, in Spanish, between "estar" and
"ser." We say, "You are an unschooler when you're school-age and not
being schooled." We're using "estar" - "Tu estas una unschooler." But
they are saying, "I AM an unschooler now and forever." "Yo SOY una
unschooler."
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]