Sandra Dodd

...and I can't get in the mood to read it. If anyone has the time
and energy to let me know if it's a bearable thing to see, I'd
appreciate it.

Is Jane Powell on this list?

==============================================================



Hi Sandra,

I just wanted to let you know that the unschooling article is up
today our Web site at www.edweek.org.

You will have to register for the site, which will allow you to read
two articles for free. The unschooling story also has an audio
interview I did with a local unschooling mom.

Thanks again for your input. I really enjoyed talking with you. One
of the moms quoted in the story (Jane Powell) was so excited that I
had interviewed you. She called you the "mother" of unschooling!

Thanks again,
Michelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>>>She called you the "mother" of unschooling!>>>>>

That's a really nice thing to say. :-)

Hey mom, what's for dinner? (sorry-couldn't resist...)

~~* Joanne *~~

Sandra Dodd

-=-Hey mom, what's for dinner? (sorry-couldn't resist...)-=-

Snow cake.

Sadie's birthday cake, with sparkler candles.

It's made of snow, packed on top of a cable spool. Kirby made it.
It was yellow and blue (he sprayed food coloring and water) but then
before she could come over, it was snowed on some more. It looked
more pale green.

Snow pictures:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com

and
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/SandraDodd/Snow/

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

Wait...

It snows in NM??

Here i am in Michigan, *michigan* for pete's sake, we are practically
Canada, Christmas is just in a few days.

We have no snow.

Not even a light dusting of snow. Nope, its bright and sunny, in the
high 40s. Supposed to be sunny all weekend, getting down to the high
30s by Monday. And no snow expected.

I'm not complaining, i hate driving in the snow, but still. Really
weird.


Katherine

Schuyler

Well, they killed off one of your kids. I'm not sure who, but you are down
to 2 now. Kirby is still there, taking his math class at TVI, but either
Holly or Marty have disappeared. I'm really sorry.

Alfie Kohn concludes by saying: "there's no question that unschooling leaves
behind most of the bad stuff in a lot of schools. The question is whether
some good stuff or potential good stuff is missing."

And of course the answer is yes, potential good stuff is missing. But that's
okay, potential good stuff is missing from everybody's life. It is a funny
notion that any educational philosophy, or any life approach, should lead to
a life inclusive of everything. But, I suppose, if that is the worst thing
in the article, that and the horrible disappearance of one of your
children...

Actually it starts off in the way all of these articles tend to start off,
with a normal school morning being described and a family not rising for the
bus. And moving into a day without teachers and students but one described
as following the "philosophy of letting the child decide each day what
activities to pursue-or avoid." Even if it is apt, it isn't how I would
describe our lives or my philosophical approach to life. It hasn't any of
the beauty or the wonder that I associate with unschooling. Maybe that is
the problem with all of these articles and the Dr. Phil show there is an
aspect of oddity watching that is going on. And they never really talk up
the wonderfulness that this freak show incorporates.

There is a section with the heading Risks Involved that begins with Nel
Noddings (I love that name!), education prof. emeritus at Stanford ('cause
that is important!) saying that learning deficits can result from letting
children learn what they want. As if children who are forced to learn what
they don't want are the acme of knowledge and have no gaps in their
understanding of whatever it is one must understand to be declared
edumacated. Linnaea knows that she likes eating reeces peanut butter cups
upside down at 6! I have no idea where she can go from there, but it can't
be anything but good. And Pat Farenga chimes in with his line "I define
unschooling as allowing children as much freedom to explore the world as you
can comfortably bear." Which is great in that it increases the number of
unschoolers by so many times that it becomes hard to distinguish unschoolers
from anyone else. I mean many parents of schooled children, I imagine, could
not comfortably bear allowing their children the freedom to stay home from
school, and so become unschoolers within the framework Mr. Farenga sets out.

I don't know, the article is all over the board. I don't think the author
had a clear sense of what she wanted it to be. And it comes across as many
of the other articles do, a sort of look at the difference, but don't go
there 'cause it could be too dangerous. Nel Noddings (of Stanford) does say
that unschoolers may be our saviors: "Perhaps these kids may help the world
be a less miserable and less structured place," she said. "Perhaps they'll
have something to say against the overly bureaucratic system we have now."
So there is that.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 5:59 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] I was interviewed, and...


> ...and I can't get in the mood to read it. If anyone has the time
> and energy to let me know if it's a bearable thing to see, I'd
> appreciate it.
>
> Is Jane Powell on this list?
>
> ==============================================================
>
>
>
> Hi Sandra,
>
> I just wanted to let you know that the unschooling article is up
> today our Web site at www.edweek.org.
>
> You will have to register for the site, which will allow you to read
> two articles for free. The unschooling story also has an audio
> interview I did with a local unschooling mom.
>
> Thanks again for your input. I really enjoyed talking with you. One
> of the moms quoted in the story (Jane Powell) was so excited that I
> had interviewed you. She called you the "mother" of unschooling!
>
> Thanks again,
> Michelle
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Kelli Traaseth

***Here i am in Michigan, *michigan* for pete's sake, we are practically
Canada, Christmas is just in a few days.***

Yeah, I'm thinking the same, in MN. We do have about an inch on the ground (around our yard) but only because its so shaded. 30's and 40's here lately too. I'm about 90 minutes from Canada,,

And I am complaining. ;) I love the snow and really like a white Christmas.




Kelli~


http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

> Actually it starts off in the way all of these articles tend to start off,
> with a normal school morning being described and a family not rising for
> the
> bus. And moving into a day without teachers and students but one described
> as following the "philosophy of letting the child decide each day what
> activities to pursue-or avoid." Even if it is apt, it isn't how I would
> describe our lives or my philosophical approach to life. It hasn't any of
> the beauty or the wonder that I associate with unschooling. Maybe that is
> the problem with all of these articles and the Dr. Phil show there is an
> aspect of oddity watching that is going on. And they never really talk up
> the wonderfulness that this freak show incorporates.
>

So I was trying to think of how I'd like it to be written. What I think
ought to be encapsulated in an article about unschooling and I thought about
the choice that Robert Frost wrote in The Road Not Taken:

Robert Frost (1874-1963). Mountain Interval. 1920.

1. The Road Not Taken


TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.



And that is what I want the dichotomy that Michelle R. Davis is depicting of
unschooling versus any sort of schooling to look like. A gentle turning off
the path with way leading on to way which makes all the difference.

Schuyler

Danielle Conger

Schuyler wrote:
>
> I don't know, the article is all over the board. I don't think the author
> had a clear sense of what she wanted it to be. And it comes across as
> many
> of the other articles do, a sort of look at the difference, but don't go
> there 'cause it could be too dangerous. Nel Noddings (of Stanford)
> does say
> that unschoolers may be our saviors: "Perhaps these kids may help the
> world
> be a less miserable and less structured place," she said. "Perhaps
> they'll
> have something to say against the overly bureaucratic system we have
> now."
> So there is that.
>

Yes, and you left out the lovely statement by Manfred Smith, head of the
Maryland Home Ed. Assoc. and one of the largest umbrella schools here in
Maryland, about how unschooling basically equals negligence on the part
of the parents. Manfred puts together the statewide homeschooling
conference and has been marginalizing any unschooling presence more and
more each year. We still don't know if we'll even get to present a
basic, nuts and bolts panel at this year's conference in April.

I was dismayed by his comment, but not surprised. He's included in the
article, I'm sure, because Jane Powell's in Maryland, too.

****"Manfred Smith, the president of the Maryland Home Education
Association, based in Columbia, Md., said members of his organization
once considered themselves unschoolers. "It meant we were not going to
replicate a traditional school-like focus on curriculum and text," he
said. "We wanted to focus on the needs and interests of our children."

But Mr. Smith said his group stopped using the term unschooling when it
concluded the word had become tainted. "You have people claiming to be
unschoolers, providing minimal or no supervision," he said. "Unschooling
can be this great rationalization or outright excuse not to make an
effort.""****


--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org

Sandra Dodd

-=-It snows in NM?? -=-

We usually get two or three small snows, one of them enough for a
snowman, maybe. Last summer it rained and rained many inches and now
we got deep snow. It's exceptional, not normal. <g>

My sister lives near Chama, in the central NWish part near Colorado
and they always get lots of snow. Then in the SW part near Arizona
and Mexico, they get way less. Anywhere in mountains they get snow
every year. Even in southern New Mexico there are high mountains and
the elevation starts at about a mile in the Rio Grande Valley and
goes up from there. So elevation wise, New Mexico is high and
higher. That helps. We're closer to the cold of outer space than
Minnesota is.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-But, I suppose, if that is the worst thing
in the article, that and the horrible disappearance of one of your
children...-=-

One was safe at home and not dragged into a fiasco. Good!

The quotes she showed me were not things I would have said. It's
like she built quotes from phrases or something, and had me saying
some dumb stuff. I objected and she assured me she had extensive
notes. Oh well then... "extensive notes" trumps actual understanding
of what sounds dumb-ass. So I'm afraid to read it.

-=-Which is great in that it increases the number of
unschoolers by so many times that it becomes hard to distinguish
unschoolers
from anyone else. -=-

Quantity over quality. Numbers are all, it seems, to too many people.

I'm having a really nice week, after last week's pressure fest, and I
have this problem (not a problem this week, but a problem that
strikes without warning): I get a phone call from someone who wants
to interview me. I can say no or I can talk. If I say no, they
might interview someone who knows less or isn't careful. If I say
yes, I'm almost surely spend an hour or more futilely trying to
explain unschooling to someone who thinks she already understands
it. Then the mischaracterization goes out to the world.

Ugh. Lots of times. Maybe that's why Pat Farenga made a stock
phrase he uses all the time that covers his ass.

Sandra










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-And I am complaining. ;) I love the snow and really like a white
Christmas.=-

I didn't put tic-marks on the wall, but I *think* that since I've
been in New Mexico (1959 or so?) I've seen two white Christmasses.
Maybe three. And this snow probably won't last until Christmas, even
though it's supposed to snow again Saturday, maybe. Once the sun
comes out, buh-bye.

I've seen snow evaporate without even getting the ground wet where it
was. Snow itself isn't necessarily humid. This stuff was extra
fluffy and when I boiled it down it was (I said on the blog so I'm
repeating myself for some people, sorry) 1/4 inch of water from 6.5
inches of snow. I didn't try to compact it and see what the
difference of boiled down snowball-stuff would be. But the sun
hasn't shone on it. It's not too late to be scientific.

I've seen more than two snowy Halloweens and more than two snowy
Easters. Maybe we'll have a snowy Christmas, and it *would* be the
first Christmas that I didn't even get a tree, or fake one with
lights. I have already declared to my family than next year I am
having a tree, a Christmas party, and NOT (not) performing at any
tearoom for store credit and money. Not at all.

Holly proposed no stockings this year. She asked me to ask the
boys. Marty balked so much I was afraid to ask Kirby. Holly is too
much like Keith for the rest of us (and Marty's nearly a clone of
Keith). She's just too practical. <G>

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-And that is what I want the dichotomy that Michelle R. Davis is
depicting of
unschooling versus any sort of schooling to look like. A gentle
turning off
the path with way leading on to way which makes all the difference.-=-

Nearly every article I've read (into the dozens now) has seemed like
the same article again. I don't think journalism is about art or
philosophy.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Danielle Conger
<danielle.conger@...> wrote:
>> But Mr. Smith said his group stopped using the term unschooling
when it
> concluded the word had become tainted. "You have people claiming
to be
> unschoolers, providing minimal or no supervision," he
said. "Unschooling
> can be this great rationalization or outright excuse not to make
an
> effort.""****

That line had my jaw on the floor. PUBLIC EDUCATION can be
a "rationalization or outright excuse not to make an effort"! And
when kids don't meet expectations parents can point at the system
and teachers can point at the parents and all of them can blame the
kid....okay, deep breath. My stepson's last suspension was for being
bored and restless - not for violence or breaking school rules; for
fidgetting. I'm soooo glad he's out of there.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Emily Troper

I think the piece was pretty good, especially coming from the point
of view of a teacher/educational resource organization...way cool
that they interviewed Alfie Kohn, but too bad he isn't more into
unschooling, one would think he would be, given his great ideas on
unconditional parenting. Has anyone here seen Alfie Kohn's DVD?
It's a fabulous way to show folks what's wrong with punishments and
rewards.

Emily

joyfully unschooling
in Portland, Oregon
with dh Michael
ds Morgan (12/91)
ds Seth (8/99)
dd Sara Kate (7/01)
and ds Jacob (12/04)






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathleen Whitfield

on 12/21/06 6:23 AM, Sandra Dodd at Sandra@... wrote:

>I've seen more than two snowy Halloweens and more than two snowy
>Easters.

In 1984 (when I was in high school in Albuquerque), there was snow that
stuck a bit longer than usual on May 1!

Kathleen
now in SoCal




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

There was snow on the day of both Simon's and Linnaea's birth, so the 11th
of April 1997 and the 20th of March 2000, in Albuquerque. David said it was
magical to leave the hospital feeling all stoned from lack of sleep and to
see this clean and bright Albquerque laid out before him.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathleen Whitfield" <kmckernan@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: I was interviewed, and...it snowed


> on 12/21/06 6:23 AM, Sandra Dodd at Sandra@... wrote:
>
>>I've seen more than two snowy Halloweens and more than two snowy
> >Easters.
>
> In 1984 (when I was in high school in Albuquerque), there was snow that
> stuck a bit longer than usual on May 1!
>
> Kathleen
> now in SoCal
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Jane

I'm on the list!! I'm on the list!! And we do live in MD.

While the article was not perfect, it was, perhaps in its basic form, another person's attempt to get a grasp of what takes some of us (and I'm waving my hand madly!!) a consdierable amount of time to really grasp. Its author is, like many others, a member of the public school community (the publication is national, but based here in MD). The fact that she showed a real interest and a want to understand what u/s'ing is touched me. She said that she began to reflect on her own educational experiences and how she wants her children to learn, etc. as she did her research and as she spoke with me (hers are small as well). She also said that unschooling made sense to her. Maybe the kind path here is to see that this article may have set one person along the path to question a life with greater freedom for their children. The photographer who came to our home was also moved by what she saw here. She doesn't have small people, but you could tell what she saw got her
thinking.

Imo, the taped interview with me is a much better reflection of unschooling (or so I hope).

I was **floored** by Mr. Smith's remarks. He runs a conference in MD every April and in a class I attended identified himself as an unschooler. I'm not sure what went awry...

Fwiw, I feel compelled to mention that "allowance" is not part of our life. This was Michelle's addition. It was also her addition to mention that "the tribe" calculates tips at restaurants. We frequent joints that ask if you'd like a combo or fries with that. Restaurants don't fit us. Moreover, asking them to figure a tip sounds too teachy to me and something I would not do.

Maybe I'm just noticing more, but is unschooling in the news more lately or is it just me?? It seems that it began with the People magazine article with Ren and has continued on and on and on!! If nothing else, perhaps it's not such a bad thing that the word of another path is getting out into the masses more. I know I would have welcomed a tidbit as I searched for a path which fit us!!

TTFN,
Jane




Jane Powell
Tribe's Partner

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

"There is no right way to do the wrong thing." - unknown


__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Katy

-----There was snow on the day of both Simon's and Linnaea's birth, so the 11th
of April 1997 and the 20th of March 2000, in Albuquerque. ------

In April 1975 too, when I was born, and I am further south where we get even less snow. The other morning there was about a quarter of an inch of snow in my yard before the sun came up, I got all excited and woke Richard. He said "cool" and went back to sleep. <g> It was gone when he got up. It is warm enough to be out in short sleeves today, but I could drive less than an hour and be in 10 inches of snow. I love that about New Mexico.

Katy J.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe I'm just noticing more, but is unschooling in the news more
lately or is it just me?? It seems that it began with the People
magazine article with Ren and has continued on and on and on!!-=-

Even before that there were a couple of things. Fox News and the
ElleGirl article.

But yes, within the past year, a great rash of exposure.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 21, 2006, at 4:54 AM, Schuyler wrote:

> saying that learning deficits can result from letting
> children learn what they want. As if children who are forced to
> learn what
> they don't want are the acme of knowledge and have no gaps in their
> understanding of whatever it is one must understand to be declared
> edumacated.

Ah, but, see, if schooled children have gaps it's not the system's
fault, the thinking goes. It's the children's fault for not
remembering it. They've had it handed to them and they dropped it.

If unschooled or homeschooled children have gaps, it's the parents'
fault because they haven't made sure their kids are presented with
"all the important information the kids might need".

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

See, that's the kind of information I just wasn't working from. I'm glad to
know that the burden of proof never resides with the schools, but always is
the onus of the parent or child <wink>.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joyce Fetteroll" <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I was interviewed, and...


>
> On Dec 21, 2006, at 4:54 AM, Schuyler wrote:
>
>> saying that learning deficits can result from letting
>> children learn what they want. As if children who are forced to
>> learn what
>> they don't want are the acme of knowledge and have no gaps in their
>> understanding of whatever it is one must understand to be declared
>> edumacated.
>
> Ah, but, see, if schooled children have gaps it's not the system's
> fault, the thinking goes. It's the children's fault for not
> remembering it. They've had it handed to them and they dropped it.
>
> If unschooled or homeschooled children have gaps, it's the parents'
> fault because they haven't made sure their kids are presented with
> "all the important information the kids might need".
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Ah, but, see, if schooled children have gaps it's not the system's
fault, the thinking goes. It's the children's fault for not
remembering it. They've had it handed to them and they dropped it.
-=-

And it's the parents' fault, for not making them do homework, not
spending enough time with them, not having sit-down dinners, for not
having enough books in the house, for letting the kids watch TV, or
play video games, for letting the kids run around with friends after
school instead of going straight home and doing homework. It's the
parents' fault for having a bad attitude about school and not telling
the kids all the time how great and important school is.

I've heard parents blamed by teachers LOTS Lots lots.

Some of Lindsey Lohan's e-mail was published, and it involved her
saying that she was influential and an inspiration to generations
younger and generations older than she is (and going on to complain
about press unfairness and vague other things). One journalist
commented that she wasn't going to inspire people to homeschool their
children as her parents had homeschooled her. They said that
because of some misspellings.

My husband went to school K-12 and then college, and he can't spell
as well as Lindsey Lohan. He writes more coherently, but he's been
doing it a long, long time. Holly spells really well. Marty cares
about his spelling and asks. Kirby doesn't care and doesn't ask and
he's not that great a speller. But how did he learn to spell the
words he DOES spell correctly? He just picked up tricks and visual
recognition here and there. Same as Holly, but she has the kind of
mental organization and abilities (whatever-all those might be) to
remember more of whatever she uses to spell words.

When people jump on a homeschooled person and say "SEE? Doesn't know
when the Battle of Waterloo was!" they don't even think about how
many schooled kids don't know AND wouldn't want to hear another word
about it, whereas someone not beat down and traumatized by memorizing
names and dates in history classes might say "Oh, that's cool! I
didn't know that," and then tie several bits of information to the
story once it's been sketched out for them. My kids might tie it to
Black Adder: Back and Forth, with the time travel, the Wellingtons
and the loss of England to the French (in that Black Adder TV special
which was shown in 1999, and involved a New Year's Eve party on the
eve of 2000, and Colin Firth plays Shakespeare).

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

m_kher

--- In [email protected], "Schuyler" <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:

> Alfie Kohn concludes by saying: "there's no question that
unschooling leaves
> behind most of the bad stuff in a lot of schools. The question is
whether
> some good stuff or potential good stuff is missing."
>

> There is a section with the heading Risks Involved that begins
with Nel
> Noddings (I love that name!), education prof. emeritus at Stanford
('cause
> that is important!) saying that learning deficits can result from
letting
> children learn what they want.

I find this talk of gaps in knowledge very strange. The sum total of
human knowledge is vast and a person can only know a tinsy-weensy
fraction of it. That means everyone has holes in their education. On
second thoughts, holes or gaps is not even the right term. It's more
like what I know is an island in the vast sea of knowledge.

Do these professional educators truly believe that they can capture
this sea and teach it to everybody?

Manisha

Sandra Dodd

-=-Do these professional educators truly believe that they can capture
this sea and teach it to everybody?-=-

They believe they have identified the bare-minimum island and will
create it in each student.

They fail.

Not only kids who move from school to school miss whole chunks of
knowledge, but even two kids in the same school will learn whole
different things. (or be exposed to whole different things)

The idea of the statewide curriculum was to make school an efficient
factory, like the Ford factories of old, like the Winchester Rifle
factories, with interchangeable parts and clean assembly lines. It
never did work but the vision of the vision continues.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

>When people jump on a homeschooled person and say "SEE? Doesn't
>know when the Battle of Waterloo was!" they don't even think about
>how many schooled kids don't know AND wouldn't want to hear
>another word about it, whereas someone not beat down and
>traumatized by memorizing names and dates in history classes might
>say "Oh, that's cool! I didn't know that," and then tie several
>bits of information to the story once it's been sketched out for
>them.

One of my sisters was talking to another sister, and admitted she
was worried about my son unschooling. She said "But...how will he
learn what an adverb is??" My other sister looked at her and
asked "Do YOU know what an adverb is?" The first sister stammered
and was like...well, uh, i'm sure i knew it when i was in school!

The ironic thing is that just days before my son and i had a whole
converstion about adverbs (and adj., idioms, antonyms, synonyms,
etc) In one conversation he learned what they spend weeks and weeks
on in school, complete with dittos.

Katherine

Pamela Sorooshian

On Dec 22, 2006, at 12:06 PM, queenjane555 wrote:

>> When people jump on a homeschooled person and say "SEE? Doesn't
>> know when the Battle of Waterloo was!" they don't even think about
>> how many schooled kids don't know AND wouldn't want to hear
>> another word about it, whereas someone not beat down and
>> traumatized by memorizing names and dates in history classes might
>> say "Oh, that's cool! I didn't know that," and then tie several
>> bits of information to the story once it's been sketched out for
>> them.

Rosie's soccer or Girl Scout friends sometimes ask her stuff - "How
will you learn what you need to learn?"

She's learned to ask them back, "Like what?"

They'll mention whatever it is that they happen to be covering that
week in school, usually. Rosie will ask them to tell her more about
it - but they don't usually remember much and what they do remember
is unreliable as an information source.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 22, 2006, at 2:04 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=-Do these professional educators truly believe that they can capture
> this sea and teach it to everybody?-=-
>
> They believe they have identified the bare-minimum island and will
> create it in each student.

Or, I often hear it described, a foundation. It is, supposedly, the
set of information that anyone can build on to become anything they
want to be.

Even educators realize no one will need all of the information for
the foundation. Most will build up just a portion of it. (Ideally,
anyway. People who avoid touching the foundation stuff because their
school experience getting it into them has washed over and tainted
the poor innocent information aren't acknowledged. Or, if they are,
they're blamed for having a bad attitude.)

The reason to give everyone the same foundation is because, as Sandra
said, schools use a factory model. The goal is to create a uniform
product that can then mold itself and build up from some of the parts
it's been given. Sort of like pouring in a whole grocery store even
though no one uses more than a small portion of the stuff that's there.

It's justified, though, by calling it a well-rounded education.
Unless the whole grocery store is poured in, there will be gaps, it's
feared.

But unschoolers look at it differently. We know that we don't need
the whole grocery store. We just need to a general knowledge of
what's there and how to find it if we need it, and what to do if we
encounter new things.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-She said "But...how will he
learn what an adverb is??" My other sister looked at her and
asked "Do YOU know what an adverb is?" The first sister stammered
and was like...well, uh, i'm sure i knew it when i was in school!-=-

That's so odd and so true, that school make it out to be crucial, but
trains kids to forget it as soon as they can.

-=-The ironic thing is that just days before my son and i had a whole
converstion about adverbs (and adj., idioms, antonyms, synonyms,
etc) In one conversation he learned what they spend weeks and weeks
on in school, complete with dittos. -=-

Holly and I talked about "idiom" and "idiomatic expressions" just a
couple of days ago.

A week ago I offered to show Kirby some stuff on the piano. Keith's
mom just gave us her piano (after years of saying she would, and not
doing it). I figured it would last ten or fifteen minutes and he'd
be bored or frustrated. Partly because we've both played Guitar
Hero, I was able to show him what's just the same about that as
music notation, and because I'm a collector of all things,
especially paper, I was able to lay hands on several different
beginning piano books in just a few minutes, so as he was doing one
of the first songs in one book, I was looking for a similar song in
another book.

He was hot on it, and within 45 minutes was playing with two hands
from a beginning Christmas book. I had picked something for having a
small range and being in 4/4 time. What I didn't notice was that it
was in the key of G (so there were F sharps).

He was fine. I drew a diagonal pencil line through each F and he
went for it. It was slow, but it was real. "O Come All Ye Faithful."

And in the conversation about sharps and flats and different keys
(with me playing scales and telling him no matter what note you start
on it's possible to play a major scale (do re me so... like in Sound
of Music, which he got immediately). He said, "So that's why it's
funny on the Simpsons that their group was called the 'B Sharps'
because there's no B sharp?" Kinda yeah, but I told him every note
has a sharp and every note has a flat, because it's the concept of
half-a-step up or down. But yeah, B Sharp is a double joke. And
then it was one he got doubly.

It doesn't matter that he did that when he was 20 instead of when he
was five or ten years old. My friend Jeff won't sing in public, even
though he's good, because he was traumatized by piano recitals when
he was little. Kirby will sing and sing without hesitation. <g>

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carolyn

Recently, I've returned to programming after a long
absence and in that effort, I rejoined a programming
user list not too different than this one with the
obvious difference that we discuss programming instead
of unschooling.

What struck me this time around is that when inquirers
write to the list asking for detailed help in doing
what they want to do, most of the time the gurus
respond, 'You don't want to do that', "Bad idea, don't
do that' or 'Why would you want to do THAT?', 'Better
to do this instead,' etc.

Sound familiar?

But on that list, the inquirers don't respond
defensively or emotionally or criticize the responding
guru. They provide more info, they ask questions,
they accept the advice of the guru, turn their
thoughts around, go off in a new direction, and
express a lot of gratititude for all the free help.

What a contrast to unschooling lists!

My initial thoughts are that this stems from a belief
system that everyone's ideas about parenting should be
considered equally valid while that notion becomes
absurd when applied to programming. And, as a result,
it blocks some from becoming better parents. What a
sad, damaging belief system.

I'd be interested in hearing other reactions.

Carolyn




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laura g

I think when it comes to something like parenting it is easy to get very
deffensive because you are much more invested in it.

>Recently, I've returned to programming after a long
>absence and in that effort, I rejoined a programming
>user list not too different than this one with the
>obvious difference that we discuss programming instead
>of unschooling.
>
>What struck me this time around is that when inquirers
>write to the list asking for detailed help in doing
>what they want to do, most of the time the gurus
>respond, 'You don't want to do that', "Bad idea, don't
>do that' or 'Why would you want to do THAT?', 'Better
>to do this instead,' etc.
>
>Sound familiar?
>
>But on that list, the inquirers don't respond
>defensively or emotionally or criticize the responding
>guru. They provide more info, they ask questions,
>they accept the advice of the guru, turn their
>thoughts around, go off in a new direction, and
>express a lot of gratititude for all the free help.
>
>What a contrast to unschooling lists!
>
>My initial thoughts are that this stems from a belief
>system that everyone's ideas about parenting should be
>considered equally valid while that notion becomes
>absurd when applied to programming. And, as a result,
>it blocks some from becoming better parents. What a
>sad, damaging belief system.
>
>I'd be interested in hearing other reactions.
>
>Carolyn
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

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