[email protected]

In a message dated 11/8/02 5:50:58 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Since they're young, I would go with Nintendo. I'd get a Nintendo 64 for
them (Holly concurs) which you can probably buy used and also you can get
LOTS of used games which will be good for kids. >>

That's what we started with. Got the whole set up, including three games for
just $50 at a pawn shop.
We're planning to add a game cube, which you can play the new Mario Sunshine
game on that won all the awards recently. The games are more cartoon like
for the game cube usually. Which I think is great for younger children,
although my almost 13 y.o. really likes them still.
I would start with the N64 too.

Ren
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
And remember,
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived"

organicsis

Z (he's 8) has been having a lot of fun playing Xbox Live with his dad. My husband has been working a lot so I'm letting them have fun together but the games they play are all first-person shooters. It's not really the game that is bugging me but the aggression my son is showing as he plays, yelling, calling names, threatening etc. I know he's just playing a game but there have been occassions where he's used the same type of aggression while dealing with other non-game things (although not to the same extent). It's kind of alarming to see an 8 year telling someone on the game he's gonna slit their throat (one of the games is a war game where they can sneak up behind someone and slit their throat!) or laughing over the fact that he killed someone. Okay it's not "kind of" alarming; it's really alarming and I'm really uncomfortable with it and not enjoying this aspect of the games.

So I'm wondering how to handle this or if I should even handle it at all. Should I wait and see what comes of it, should I talk with him, should I talk with my husband, should I always make sure one of us is playing with him? How should I handle this in a way that is not overreacting but not ignoring the situation either? Help me not botch this...


Tara
Our Unschooling Blog:
http://heartschooling.blogspot.com
Worried about the environment?
http://SustainableSundays.blogspot.com
Worried about the economy?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0EZeNulOz9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnijgIbm1qc


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Gold Standard

>>It's not really the game that is bugging me but the aggression my son is
showing as he plays, yelling, calling names,
>>threatening etc. I know he's just playing a game but there have been
occasions where he's used the same type of aggression >>while dealing with
other non-game things (although not to the same extent). It's kind of
alarming to see an 8 year telling >>someone on the game he's gonna slit
their throat (one of the games is a war game where they can sneak up behind
someone and >>slit their throat!) or laughing over the fact that he killed
someone. Okay it's not "kind of" alarming; it's really
>>alarming<<

>>So I'm wondering how to handle this or if I should even handle it at
all.<<

Well, this may not seem too helpful, and may even cause distress to think
about, however, I recommend you play the game with him and jump right in
there with the same enthusiasm and language, without judgment. Be with him
where he is at. I'm guessing you'll get a much better understanding of the
game and your son. And playing games with our kids only fosters deeper
relationships and connectedness. Which can lead to more fruitful discussions
about real-life issues when they come up.

It is pretty difficult to confuse virtual people and situations with real
life ones, and sometimes it takes playing the game for adults to see that.
Having four teenagers who all have played unlimited video games, and started
on some of the "M" games at young ages, they never confused how to treat
real people and things with how to treat virtual people and things.

If your son is treating real people badly, that is something to discuss and
work on. It may not be at all related to the video games. The video games
may actually help him have a place where he CAN act that way.

Jacki

diana jenner

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 8:26 PM, organicsis <organicsis@...> wrote:

> . It's not really the game that is bugging me but the aggression my son
> is showing as he plays, yelling, calling names, threatening etc. I know he's
> just playing a game but there have been occassions where he's used the same
> type of aggression while dealing with other non-game things (although not to
> the same extent). It's kind of alarming to see an 8 year telling someone on
> the game he's gonna slit their throat (one of the games is a war game where
> they can sneak up behind someone and slit their throat!) or laughing over
> the fact that he killed someone. Okay it's not "kind of" alarming; it's
> really alarming and I'm really uncomfortable with it and not enjoying this
> aspect of the games.
>











Here's a very LONG and beautiful response by Kelly Lovejoy over at
UnschoolingBasics <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/> about
this very topic:

*************************************************************
*Q:* Another thing I find hard to accept about video games is the culture of
violence. It does not sit right to tell kids not to hit each other and
to be cooperative when you're playing Kill Stuff In A Good Story IV?
Isn't that a contradiction?

-=-=-=-=-

*A:* It's been almost a FULL DAY, and Deb Lewis hasn't yet commented on
violence?! She must be out of town! <G>

She'll be by shortly, I'm sure....

Duncan has a friend who was playing Nintendogs. He had 4-5 dogs, all
happy and well-cared for. He decided to starve one. He wanted to see
how far the game would go. He'd feed the other dogs in front of it. It
would beg and whine. It grew thinner and thinner. Weaker and weaker.
C-r-a-w-l-i-n-g along the floor. It did anything to get his attention.
It was so pathetic!

We moms were FREAKING OUT!

Now, Duncan *adores* his Nintendogs. He only keeps as many as he can
care for and got angry at Cameron's girlfriend, who played with his DS
and bought another dog---but then went home after the weekend, leaving
*her* new dog for Duncan to care for. "Doesn't she realize that a dog's
a big responsibility? That she can't just *get* one and then forget
about it?" So he's *very* attached to and cares a lot about his virtual
pets.

But he also realizes that these are just pixels.

Now...I don't really know what a "pixel" IS, but I do know that they
aren't real dogs. <g> Nevertheless, the boy who was starving his
virtual dog had my stomach in a knot.

He was experimenting with the GAME. He would *never* starve his own
REAL dogs! I guess I *know* that in my mind, but my heart was breaking
for this starving pup...uh...pixel.

I think many adults have a hard time understanding that these are
simply games---NO ONE is getting hurt---not a soul! Nor would these
children purposefully harm anyone IRL. But this a VIRTUAL world. Wild
and crazy things can be done in a virtual world---things none of these
children would ever *consider* doing in real life! They can be strong
super-heroes and super-villains. They can starve sweet, little pups.
They can save and destroy planets. It's a GAME! Absolutley NO violence
is being committed! Absolutely NO damage is being done!

On the other hand... <g>

When a parent trivializes what a child holds dear or throws away or
sells a child's game or denies a child time to play...then REAL damage
is being done to that child and that relationship.

The *parent* has the power over the child and is wielding it to suit
the parent. A child feels small and powerless. THAT's real damage! A
parent that spanks or pops or smacks or paddles or whips a
child---THAT's real violence!

What about the children that DO play violent games and then go out and
shoot up a school?

Do you think that those children were loved and accepted for Who They
Are by everyone close to them? Or do you think they were laughed at and
ridiculed and coerced and denied and trumped on a regular basis? Do you
think they were trusted and respected and treasted with kindness and
patience and generosity? Or do you think their parents wished they
could fix or change them---or just wish that they were *different*?

Columbine shooters don't get that way because they were allowed to play
video games. They get that way because the people who should have loved
them most didn't treat them with respect and kindness and accept that
Who They Are was good enough.

I've met almost all the kids whose parents write here regularly. Not an
axe-murderer among them! <G> Gentle, kind, thoughtful kids who love to
kill and starve pixels. <g>

Using Might over Right will get you short-term results. Using Right
over Might takes a little longer---more thought, more patience, more
work!---but it's a life-long relationship you're after, right?

Video games don't cause violent children. But children who are exposed
to real violence *very* often become violent.
**
=-=-=-=-=-=-

*Q: *Someone mentioned is it right to give up something because it causes
grumpiness? If it made someone grumpy for my to pick my nose in front
of them, yes I would need to give that up to fit in with manners.
-=-=-=-==-

*A: *Picking your nose in public is considered bad manners in this society.
It doesn't matter whether it makes someone grumpy or not. What *YOU* do
cannot make *ME* grumpy. I get to *choose* how *I* feel about
everything. *YOU* are not responsible for *MY* feelings.

My mother used to say, "You make me embarrassed when you do ________."
Uh....No. I can't *make* her be embarrassed. *She* gets to make the
decision whether to be embarrassed or not.

Playing video games doesn't *make* someone else feel grumpy. There's
something *else* going on there. There are other options than simply
limited gaming time.


~Kelly
*********************************************************************************************************
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


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swissarmy_wife

I think fantasy is such a necessary part of being a child. I think
through fantasy, children can develop the emotions and tools they need
to feel in control in real life situations.

I personally don't find it alarming. Kids know the difference between
make believe and real life. I'll admit, I might have gasped when my 3
year old started running around yelling, "Die Suckers!!!". My two
love to watch those violent stick figure videos, run around with guns
and swords (usually some version of them anyway) and play video games
that I wouldn't have chosen for them. I don't find "I'm gonna slit
your throat" alarming. Strong words, pretend words, but not alarming.
Communicate with him about it. Don't react negatively, but with S.
we talk about how his words can make other kids feel. But if the two
kids are having fun then it isn't a problem. It's pretend.

I don't react to it at all. I just keep open communication. Lately
our talks are about the internet. What he sends to other kids, and
how other parents might react to that. He has a lot of public school
friends due to sports (and the lack of unschoolers his age around
here)so I know that not all parents are as free as we are and I
wouldn't want other children catching any heat. :-) Since I don't
react negatively to the things he loves, he trusts me and I know he
won't be hiding anything from me. That's most important to me. That
he doesn't feel he needs to be sneaky. then I'm aware of what he is
seeing, and we can keep that communication door wide open.

I don't know if this will help at all. It's just what came to me. I
think there is a book out there called "Killing Monsters". it's about
EXACTLY this topic. I have know idea if its any good. Has anyone
here read it?


> So I'm wondering how to handle this or if I should even handle it at
all. Should I wait and see what comes of it, should I talk with him,
should I talk with my husband, should I always make sure one of us is
playing with him? How should I handle this in a way that is not
overreacting but not ignoring the situation either? Help me not botch
this...
>
>
> Tara
> Our Unschooling Blog:
> http://heartschooling.blogspot.com
> Worried about the environment?
> http://SustainableSundays.blogspot.com
> Worried about the economy?
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=0EZeNulOz9E
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnijgIbm1qc
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I know he's just playing a game but there have been occassions
where he's used the same type of aggression while dealing with other
non-game things (although not to the same extent). -=-

I think most little boys play with aggression. When I was a kid and
video games were far in the future and TV was in black and white, we
played WWII on the playground at school, and cowboys and Indians in
the orchard at home. To be fair, in the WWII games which went on a
few weeks in 2nd grade (I was 7) I was a nurse, and my job was to
sprinkle sand on fallen soldiers to revive them. We were playing
between two army barracks that had been bought by the school for
additional classrooms.

My mom grew up before TV was invented. They heard radio shows. They
hardly ever had any books, but there was much aggression. Her
brother raped her when he was 14, and died at 15 of rheumatic fever
or scarlet fever, one of those.

I mention these things because they are worse than video game play,
and because I know of zero acting out of what cartoon characters in
video games do. I know LOTS of young men in their 20's and 30's who
have played video games their whole lives. None of them have stolen
cars, shot people, slit throats, not so much as shoplifted. They
have jobs, they've bought cars, they're courteous, and then they get
together two or three times a week to play World of Warcraft or
Halo3. And one night a week Marty gets together with some of them to
do role playing games involving paper and pencils and dice. On
Sundays, some of them are playing capture the flag (not with video
games, with running around in a park, and the youngest of them is
Marty, at 19). Several nights a week they're playing basketball,
after Bo gets off work at 10:00. Outside basketball.

That's what I see having happened with people who played all the
video games they wanted to when they were younger (and now).

-=-It's kind of alarming to see an 8 year telling someone on the game
he's gonna slit their throat (one of the games is a war game where
they can sneak up behind someone and slit their throat!) or laughing
over the fact that he killed someone.-=-

But he didn't kill anyone.

-=-So I'm wondering how to handle this or if I should even handle it
at all. Should I wait and see what comes of it, should I talk with
him, should I talk with my husband, should I always make sure one of
us is playing with him? How should I handle this in a way that is not
overreacting but not ignoring the situation either? Help me not botch
this...-=-

Please read lots of what's here and don't say anything to your son.
http://sandradodd.com/videogames

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Communicate with him about it. Don't react negatively, but with S.
we talk about how his words can make other kids feel. But if the two
kids are having fun then it isn't a problem. It's pretend. -=-



IF it's about how another kid feels, communication would be good.

If it's about how the mom feels, communication would be whiney and
wouldn't lead to a better mother/son relationship, I don't think.



-=I think through fantasy, children can develop the emotions and
tools they need to feel in control in real life situations. -=-

Here's some VERY cool evidence of that:

http://unschooling.blogspot.com/2008/03/boy-saves-sister-from-moose-
attack-with.html

Boy Saves Sister from Moose Attack with Skills Learned in Warcraft
Video Game

There's a little more there, but here some of it:

******

This 12 year-old Norwegian boy saved his sister and himself from a
moose attack using skills he picked up in the online role playing
game 'World of Warcraft.'

Hans Jørgen Olsen and his sister got into a spot of trouble when they
encroached on the territory of one of these antlered cold weather
staples (otherwise known as a moose). When the beast went on the
offensive, Hans knew the first thing he had to do was taunt it so
that it would leave his sister alone and she could run to safety.
"Taunting" is a move one uses in World of Warcraft to get monsters
off of the less-well-armored team members.

Once he was a target, Hans remember another skill he'd picked up at
level 30 in 'World of Warcraft' -- he feigned death. The moose lost
interest in the inanimate Hans and wandered off into the woods. When
he was safely alone Hans ran back home to share his tale of video
game-inspired survival.

******

-=-Since I don't react negatively to the things he loves, he trusts
me and I know he won't be hiding anything from me. That's most
important to me. That he doesn't feel he needs to be sneaky. then I'm
aware of what he is seeing, and we can keep that communication door
wide open. -=-

Not just about video games!! Rules that make kids be sneaky, policies
that make kids think parents aren't so smart--those do irreparable
damage to the parent/child relationship.



Sandra

Tara

Be with him
> where he is at. I'm guessing you'll get a much better understanding
of the
> game and your son. And playing games with our kids only fosters deeper
> relationships and connectedness. Which can lead to more fruitful
discussions
> about real-life issues when they come up.
> Jacki
>

Thanks Jacki,
I've actually been thinking about this a lot since I read it last
night.

I'm not really afraid of the games nor do I feel the need to change it.
But I did need practical ways for *me* to handle it. Last night I sat
with him and watched the game. And strangely enough he seemed less
aggressive. Maybe his over-the-top aggression was just a way of
bringing me into what he was doing and once I was there with him, he
didn't need to do it anymore.

He asked me today to play with him, said he would teach me. I always
avoided playing in the past but couldn't remember why. Then it dawned
on me that while I was still working as a massage therapist, my joints
would hurt too much while playing video games. But I'm not working
anymore! Duh! So we have plans for him to show me the ropes after
dinner. And he's already planning on me getting my own Live account! LOL

So I will keep ya posted on how this all pans out. I'm so not the
gaming type, but then maybe I've just assumed I wasn't. You may just
not hear from me for awhile. hahaha

~ Tara

Tara

> IF it's about how another kid feels, communication would be good.
>
> If it's about how the mom feels, communication would be whiney and
> wouldn't lead to a better mother/son relationship, I don't think.
>
> Sandra
>

Yeah and I definitely think it was about me. lol

Thank you for the video game link BTW. I've read through it all before
but that was awhile ago and before he really played often and he played
different games so it would probably be more applicable now.

That moose story was cool!!

~ Tara

Pamela Sorooshian

My daughter gets together three times a week with a group of kids -
mostly of them boys around 18 to 19 years old, who play a lot of video
games. They get together for big-group Halo parties where they set up
a whole bunch of screens and all play at once, for hours and hours -
all night, usually. Halo is very violent, but they are THE sweetest,
kindest kids anyone could ever imagine. They also all take karate
together, play other games, talk and talk and talk with each other.
And, they are unfailingly courteous and attentive and kind to the
adults and young children around them. In fact, the one word that
would accurately describe any of them is "gentle."

I wouldn't worry one bit about the violence of video games. If a kid
is acting violently toward other people, don't blame the games, figure
out what he needs and why his needs are being frustrated. Treat him
kindly and patiently. Model courtesy. And be very solution-oriented
with him. I really think that most overly-aggressive behavior directed
at other people is frustration-based - it seems to me that kids who
are violent haven't yet learned to respond to frustration looking for
a solution. That can take time, but that is more likely the problem
than video game violence.

-pam

On Mar 17, 2008, at 6:55 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> I know LOTS of young men in their 20's and 30's who
> have played video games their whole lives. None of them have stolen
> cars, shot people, slit throats, not so much as shoplifted. They
> have jobs, they've bought cars, they're courteous, and then they get
> together two or three times a week to play World of Warcraft or
> Halo3. And one night a week Marty gets together with some of them to
> do role playing games involving paper and pencils and dice. On
> Sundays, some of them are playing capture the flag (not with video
> games, with running around in a park, and the youngest of them is
> Marty, at 19). Several nights a week they're playing basketball,
> after Bo gets off work at 10:00. Outside basketball.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 17, 2008, at 4:21 PM, Tara wrote:

> So we have plans for him to show me the ropes after
> dinner. And he's already planning on me getting my own Live account!
> LOL

How sweet. I think it is important for you to know enough about it to
converse intelligently. If he was interested in anything else, that
would have probably been something you'd do, naturally. Even if he was
fascinated by something that didn't appeal to you at ALL, snakes or
spiders, say, I bet you'd get involved and support his interest. So -
yeah - do the same with video games! Handle it the way you'd handle it
if he LOVED snakes! <G>

-pam



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